Saturday 25th and Sunday 26th June 2016

[JonnyT1234]

I can't work out who, or how, but is someobody making a lot of money out of all this instability?

I think it was Willow904 who alluded to this possibility - but it's been niggling away at me for some time.

I think it's a safe bet that Nigel "My friends in banking have told me Remain have won" Farage may well have been doing just that. One suspects that he and those 'friends' were hedging on the £ rising after he said that and raked it in when, lo and behold, the £ tanked when Brexit became a possibility.

I also am very suspicious of George Soros' last minute intervention. Was it a warning or a means to spike the market?

Edit: have just seen ohso's post which wasn't there when writing mine above.

[Rebecca]

Much of the "blame"-of course blame assumes an irrefutably correct decision on the "ill-educated";even if you accept that level of education has a direct correspondence to level of understanding on a particular issue,which I in no way do,this is unadultered cack.It always happens of course,the childish response of it didn't go the "correct" way.I,personally treat this simplistic "answer" in the same manner as I do as the related "Daily Mail readers vote accordingly to what they are told".Stereotypical nonsenses,denigration according to newspaper reading habits and/or level of education is as pernicious as any other,and simply wrong and only entranches positions.I happened to vote Remain,decorum in "defeat" would be somewhat welcome.The Leave campaign was largely based on hate,bile,complications made into simplicity,sadly the response by many that "lost"has many of the same attributes.

Decorum in defeat?
Not bloody likely.
2trn wiped off the worlds markets in 24 hrs,no plan in place for leaving except wait a few years,heads of the leave campaign mia or backtracking on their promises.Govt nowhere to be seen.
God knows how many jobs will be lost.
Like I posted earlier,I will set my dogs on them if they come near me I'm so furious.

[citizenJA]

We need socialism now, particularly its sense of international solidarity, more than ever

Yep.

[howsillyofme1]

Much of the "blame"-of course blame assumes an irrefutably correct decision on the "ill-educated";even if you accept that level of education has a direct correspondence to level of understanding on a particular issue,which I in no way do,this is unadultered cack.It always happens of course,the childish response of it didn't go the "correct" way.I,personally treat this simplistic "answer" in the same manner as I do as the related "Daily Mail readers vote accordingly to what they are told".Stereotypical nonsenses,denigration according to newspaper reading habits and/or level of education is as pernicious as any other,and simply wrong and only entranches positions.I happened to vote Remain,decorum in "defeat" would be somewhat welcome.The Leave campaign was largely based on hate,bile,complications made into simplicity,sadly the response by many that "lost"has many of the same attributes.

I would like to actually see anyone I know from the Leave side come on and explain why they voted the way they did and what the link is to the EU.

I have asked and most of the responses are in these areas:

'Get the country back' - whatever that means
'Too many xxxxx' - most of the time xxxx is non-European
The NHS
We will have more money to spend on us

The problem is that there is no interest in looking at the reasons and consequences for their decision. The question is difficult but most people have based their views on the headlines and the uttering of politicians. The Leavers have not been able to debate - normally any attempt to engage results in aggressive responses and the fact that I am from the 'elite' (because I have a decent job and a good education)

There has always been a thread of anti-intellectualism running through the UK and this was built on by Gove and his comments on Experts

The thing is there is a proportion of the Leave people that have almost become nihilistic in their views....destroy all and sod the consequences for everyone else because I am unhappy.

There are good people who will lose their jobs and livelihoods over this....i am worried because my livelihood is under threat too

I voted Labour, I am vehemently anti-austerity and I want the Government to support those who are less fortunate.

I am fucking livid that that has been put under threat by people who cannot explain to me why they voted, or that if they did then it was for reasons with no intellectual basis

This is a generalisation but I am still very very pissed off

[ohsocynical]

Much of the "blame"-of course blame assumes an irrefutably correct decision on the "ill-educated";even if you accept that level of education has a direct correspondence to level of understanding on a particular issue,which I in no way do,this is unadultered cack.It always happens of course,the childish response of it didn't go the "correct" way.I,personally treat this simplistic "answer" in the same manner as I do as the related "Daily Mail readers vote accordingly to what they are told".Stereotypical nonsenses,denigration according to newspaper reading habits and/or level of education is as pernicious as any other,and simply wrong and only entranches positions.I happened to vote Remain,decorum in "defeat" would be somewhat welcome.The Leave campaign was largely based on hate,bile,complications made into simplicity,sadly the response by many that "lost"has many of the same attributes.

I'm not bothered about the whys. What's done is done. I am though worried about the where's as in, where's the government?

[PorFavor]

Police are investigating suspected post-referendum racism after hate mail aimed at the Polish community was allegedly distributed in Cambridgeshire.

Laminated cards reading “Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin” were found in Huntingdon, north west of Cambridge.

The Polish language newspaper, Nasze Strony, reports on the incident and on the fact that the cards even had a translation in Polish on the reverse. (Politics Live, Guardian - 16.13)

[howsillyofme1]

Just watching Sky and I am in a reality distortion field

There is a real lack of understanding what has happened - some Tory twat on saying:

Could be another referendum - perhaps as a GE
That we can just take our own time to invoke A50
That Europe are just going to roll over and give us what we want

Rats the lot of them

[PorFavor]

Kwasi Kwartang (on the BBC) is also under the impression that we've just had an election. It went uncorrected, of course.

[NonOxCol]

Police are investigating suspected post-referendum racism after hate mail aimed at the Polish community was allegedly distributed in Cambridgeshire.

Laminated cards reading “Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin” were found in Huntingdon, north west of Cambridge.

The Polish language newspaper, Nasze Strony, reports on the incident and on the fact that the cards even had a translation in Polish on the reverse. (Politics Live, Guardian - 16.13)

That was the picture in my "Decent People Latest" post.

Here's some more Decent People in action today:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rebecca]

Much of the "blame"-of course blame assumes an irrefutably correct decision on the "ill-educated";even if you accept that level of education has a direct correspondence to level of understanding on a particular issue,which I in no way do,this is unadultered cack.It always happens of course,the childish response of it didn't go the "correct" way.I,personally treat this simplistic "answer" in the same manner as I do as the related "Daily Mail readers vote accordingly to what they are told".Stereotypical nonsenses,denigration according to newspaper reading habits and/or level of education is as pernicious as any other,and simply wrong and only entranches positions.I happened to vote Remain,decorum in "defeat" would be somewhat welcome.The Leave campaign was largely based on hate,bile,complications made into simplicity,sadly the response by many that "lost"has many of the same attributes.

I'm not bothered about the whys. What's done is done. I am though worried about the where's as in, where's the government?

Do you remember the 2008 crash?Gordon Brown worked day and night to try to stabilise the economy.
Boris is at the cricket,Cameron is puffing his chest up for the military(don't mention the referendum),Osborne is calculating how much more blood he can squeeze from the disabled and Gove is probably looking at new kitchens.
And the PLP is desperately trying to get rid of Corbyn.

[RogerOThornhill]

That was the picture in my "Decent People Latest" post.

Here's some more Decent People in action today:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Presumably the "unfettered free speech for all" people think this is perfectly acceptable and we shouldn't worry if people are even remotely offended by it.

[JonnyT1234]

That was the picture in my "Decent People Latest" post.

Here's some more Decent People in action today:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Presumably the "unfettered free speech for all" people think this is perfectly acceptable and we shouldn't worry if people are even remotely offended by it.

That sounds a bit close to Political Correctness Gone Mad(TM), Roger.

[ohsocynical]

Much of the "blame"-of course blame assumes an irrefutably correct decision on the "ill-educated";even if you accept that level of education has a direct correspondence to level of understanding on a particular issue,which I in no way do,this is unadultered cack.It always happens of course,the childish response of it didn't go the "correct" way.I,personally treat this simplistic "answer" in the same manner as I do as the related "Daily Mail readers vote accordingly to what they are told".Stereotypical nonsenses,denigration according to newspaper reading habits and/or level of education is as pernicious as any other,and simply wrong and only entranches positions.I happened to vote Remain,decorum in "defeat" would be somewhat welcome.The Leave campaign was largely based on hate,bile,complications made into simplicity,sadly the response by many that "lost"has many of the same attributes.

I would like to actually see anyone I know from the Leave side come on and explain why they voted the way they did and what the link is to the EU.

I have asked and most of the responses are in these areas:

'Get the country back' - whatever that means
'Too many xxxxx' - most of the time xxxx is non-European
The NHS
We will have more money to spend on us

The problem is that there is no interest in looking at the reasons and consequences for their decision. The question is difficult but most people have based their views on the headlines and the uttering of politicians. The Leavers have not been able to debate - normally any attempt to engage results in aggressive responses and the fact that I am from the 'elite' (because I have a decent job and a good education)

There has always been a thread of anti-intellectualism running through the UK and this was built on by Gove and his comments on Experts

The thing is there is a proportion of the Leave people that have almost become nihilistic in their views....destroy all and sod the consequences for everyone else because I am unhappy.

There are good people who will lose their jobs and livelihoods over this....i am worried because my livelihood is under threat too

I voted Labour, I am vehemently anti-austerity and I want the Government to support those who are less fortunate.

I am fucking livid that that has been put under threat by people who cannot explain to me why they voted, or that if they did then it was for reasons with no intellectual basis

This is a generalisation but I am still very very pissed off

An entirely selfish reason for me which is apparently just unfolding. The housing market affected. People back tracking on committing themselves to buying for a moment.
If it happens then our hopes of getting into sheltered accommodation via selling our place and while I'm still fit enough to cope are looking shaky. And we'll be facing a very hard up future.

I promise I won't hit anyone, but I did get a small dig at my son. I'd not had a chance to have a conversation with him this week but managed it this morning. Told him about a possible place and being top of the list...But due to Exit, it could all fall apart, because we can't afford to rent without our place being sold. If it goes the same way as the housing market in 2007, it's going to take quite a while to re-adjust. And we can't afford to take too much of a hit on the price.

I know how he voted, and I got exactly the same reaction as I've had from others who I suspect voted Leave ... Oh don't worry it'll all level itself out before too long.

I bloody wish!

[PorFavor]

Re Justine Greening's announcement that she is in a same-sex relationship:

vid Cameron
✔
@David_Cameron

Congratulations Justine - that's great news. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
4:00 PM - 25 Jun 2016

122 122 Retweets
461

Why is it "great news"?

[NonOxCol]

That was the picture in my "Decent People Latest" post.

Here's some more Decent People in action today:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Presumably the "unfettered free speech for all" people think this is perfectly acceptable and we shouldn't worry if people are even remotely offended by it.

Some of the replies are just as depressing - "just a few dickheads", as if Birstall never happened, as if there is no connection with some people's motive for voting Leave, as if there's nothing else happening in Huntington or Romford or (CAPITAL LETTERS MR HANNAN) Derbyshire or possibly elsewhere, as if promises aren't being sacked off already... and the "government" hasn't just basically announced three months of stasis.

I'm reminded of Laurie Penny's frog-boiling metaphor from nearly a year ago - first paragraph below.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ng-fascism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cameron should have sand kicked in his stupid face for the rest of his wretched life.

[howsillyofme1]

Much of the "blame"-of course blame assumes an irrefutably correct decision on the "ill-educated";even if you accept that level of education has a direct correspondence to level of understanding on a particular issue,which I in no way do,this is unadultered cack.It always happens of course,the childish response of it didn't go the "correct" way.I,personally treat this simplistic "answer" in the same manner as I do as the related "Daily Mail readers vote accordingly to what they are told".Stereotypical nonsenses,denigration according to newspaper reading habits and/or level of education is as pernicious as any other,and simply wrong and only entranches positions.I happened to vote Remain,decorum in "defeat" would be somewhat welcome.The Leave campaign was largely based on hate,bile,complications made into simplicity,sadly the response by many that "lost"has many of the same attributes.

I would like to actually see anyone I know from the Leave side come on and explain why they voted the way they did and what the link is to the EU.

I have asked and most of the responses are in these areas:

'Get the country back' - whatever that means
'Too many xxxxx' - most of the time xxxx is non-European
The NHS
We will have more money to spend on us

The problem is that there is no interest in looking at the reasons and consequences for their decision. The question is difficult but most people have based their views on the headlines and the uttering of politicians. The Leavers have not been able to debate - normally any attempt to engage results in aggressive responses and the fact that I am from the 'elite' (because I have a decent job and a good education)

There has always been a thread of anti-intellectualism running through the UK and this was built on by Gove and his comments on Experts

The thing is there is a proportion of the Leave people that have almost become nihilistic in their views....destroy all and sod the consequences for everyone else because I am unhappy.

There are good people who will lose their jobs and livelihoods over this....i am worried because my livelihood is under threat too

I voted Labour, I am vehemently anti-austerity and I want the Government to support those who are less fortunate.

I am fucking livid that that has been put under threat by people who cannot explain to me why they voted, or that if they did then it was for reasons with no intellectual basis

This is a generalisation but I am still very very pissed off

An entirely selfish reason for me which is apparently just unfolding. The housing market affected. People back tracking on committing themselves to buying for a moment.
If it happens then our hopes of getting into sheltered accommodation via selling our place and while I'm still fit enough to cope are looking shaky. And we'll be facing a very hard up future.

I promise I won't hit anyone, but I did get a small dig at my son. I'd not had a chance to have a conversation with him this week but managed it this morning. Told him about a possible place and being top of the list...But due to Exit, it could all fall apart, because we can't afford to rent without our place being sold. If it goes the same way as the housing market in 2007, it's going to take quite a while to re-adjust. And we can't afford to take too much of a hit on the price.

I know how he voted, and I got exactly the same reaction as I've had from others who I suspect voted Leave ... Oh don't worry it'll all level itself out before too long.

I bloody wish!

That seems to be the response I see - don't worry it will all be okay

It seems now from being the evil superstate the EU have changed into a little teddy bear that will just help us to make sure we maintain everything as it was before

[JonnyT1234]

Ed Miliband has said Jeremy Corbyn was not to blame for the failed Remain campaign.

He said the referendum result reflected deafness in Westminster to problems outside London and a wider discontent about jobs and housing. “I don’t think we should blame Jeremy Corbyn for the seismic earthquake,” he said at the Glastonbury festival on Saturday.
The task ahead was to focus beyond party politics and the future of the country, he told a small crowd in a muddy arena. “Part of the problem is that Westminster has been talking to itself too much.”
Miliband said Labour’s political vision for a post-Brexit Britain was “not there yet” and called on the left to regroup: “Our task is to come up with that vision and to use this opportunity to recognise what’s driven this decision.”
The former leader is the only senior Labour figure to appear at Glastonbury after both Jeremy Corbyn and shadow chancellor John McDonnell pulled out of scheduled panel discussions.
Miliband the exit vote reflected years of pent-up “legitimate grievances” about jobs, housing as well as immigration. “This is a moment when many people are feeling fear but, in my view, we have got to accept the vote and then shape it [the future] around
progressive causes,” he said.
He also called on David Cameron to ratify the Paris climate change agreement as his last act in office.

It's a shame Ed Miliband isn't (yet?) in the shadow cabinet.

Edit: quote from the Guardian http://gu.com/p/4mya4?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Maeght]

Maybe that's where Labour need to start from in rebuilding support.

How has the working person got so divorced from any basic level of political consciousness as to believe right wingers care about public services and the NHS ? Why did they not recognise that the NHS was being used, in conjunction with anti-immigration rhetoric, as a political tool ?

I made the mistake of thinking if I explained the truth to people, that'd be enough.
- from The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists

Good-afternoon, everyone.

This sums it up perfectly

[TR'sGhost]

He's already furious. Hell hath no fury like a Farrige scorned

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... rom-the-e/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ScreenShot01439.jpg

So the people who make Farage and his millionaire funder look like paupers don't fancy letting a gobby, often drunk, nasty, lying spiv and his even dodgier fellow travellers negotiate the future of the UK and with it the fate of the billions a year turnovers of the businesses they have shares in?

Who'd have thought it.

Well, not Nigel, clearly. Which in itself demonstrates why he's being excluded.

[PorFavor]

Miliband said Labour’s political vision for a post-Brexit Britain was “not there yet” and called on the left to regroup: “Our task is to come up with that vision and to use this opportunity to recognise what’s driven this decision.” (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

Oh, please come back!

[NonOxCol]

The first of many obituaries.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/24/dav ... s-failure/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PorFavor]

I hope the strain of his activities today weren't too much for David Cameron. Pretending to be a minor royal can be very exhausting.

[Willow904]

Re: who benefits from Brexit.

The "leave" campaign was funded by hedge fund bosses. They stood to gain by Brexit because the EU has been introducing regulations that curbs their predatory capitalist activities which destabilise the wider economy.

They probably also had a two way bet on the result. They are hedge funds, it's what they do.

The other winners are anybody who wants to see the disintegration of the EU overall and I fear that may now be the goal of the Tories currently in government, even if it wasn't before the referendum. If it's irreversibly the case we are now out, it's better for us if the whole lot comes down . This is no longer about leave, but complete sabotage. I believe there may be some in corporate America ( as opposed to US government ) for whom the failure of the EU experiment may be a desirable outcome. The likes of Liam Fox popping up, with his links to corporate power in the States, is what setting me thinking who might like to see chaos in Europe. It's just random thoughts, but slightly worrying.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Its all Corbyn's fault, though. Polly Toynbee said so!

[RogerOThornhill]

That was the picture in my "Decent People Latest" post.

Here's some more Decent People in action today:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Presumably the "unfettered free speech for all" people think this is perfectly acceptable and we shouldn't worry if people are even remotely offended by it.

That sounds a bit close to Political Correctness Gone Mad(TM), Roger.

I've seen tweets where it's been directed at children - in school and out. About time people had a think about where free speech leads.

[ohsocynical]

Mark Gettleson
‏@MarksOutOf100

Liverpool votes Remain when demographically similar places heavily Leave. Perhaps because @TheSun hasn't been sold there for 27 years #EUref

[ohsocynical]

Re: who benefits from Brexit.

The "leave" campaign was funded by hedge fund bosses. They stood to gain by Brexit because the EU has been introducing regulations that curbs their predatory capitalist activities which destabilise the wider economy.

They probably also had a two way bet on the result. They are hedge funds, it's what they do.

The other winners are anybody who wants to see the disintegration of the EU overall and I fear that may now be the goal of the Tories currently in government, even if it wasn't before the referendum. If it's irreversibly the case we are now out, it's better for us if the whole lot comes down . This is no longer about leave, but complete sabotage. I believe there may be some in corporate America ( as opposed to US government ) for whom the failure of the EU experiment may be a desirable outcome. The likes of Liam Fox popping up, with his links to corporate power in the States, is what setting me thinking who might like to see chaos in Europe. It's just random thoughts, but slightly worrying.

If Fox gets his way we'll all be singing 'I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy' instead of 'God Save the Queen'.

[ohsocynical]

I hope the strain of his activities today weren't too much for David Cameron. Pretending to be a minor royal can be very exhausting.

It's all that blue blood. Too much inbreeding.

[JonnyT1234]

Presumably the "unfettered free speech for all" people think this is perfectly acceptable and we shouldn't worry if people are even remotely offended by it.

That sounds a bit close to Political Correctness Gone Mad(TM), Roger.

I've seen tweets where it's been directed at children - in school and out. About time people had a think about where free speech leads.

(I was being sarcastic, in case it wasn't clear)

People who preach free speech always forget that it doesn't automatically equate with the freedom to be heard.

[mbc1955]

Lord (Jonathan) Hill, British EU Commissioner, has just resigned (BBC News).

His statement is interesting - check out the final bit

Like many people here and in the UK, I am obviously very disappointed about the result of the referendum. I wanted it to end differently and had hoped that Britain would want to play a role in arguing for an outward-looking, flexible, competitive, free trade Europe. But the British people took a different decision, and that is the way that democracy works.
As we move to a new phase, I don't believe it is right that I should carry on as the British Commissioner as though nothing had happened. In line with what I discussed with the President of the Commission some weeks ago, I have therefore told him that I shall stand down. At the same time, there needs to be an orderly handover, so I have said that I will work with him to make sure that happens in the weeks ahead.

I am very grateful to Jean-Claude Juncker for giving me the chance to work on financial services and for the opportunity to help support jobs and growth in Europe. I was also glad to have worked with other Commissioners in trying to take forward our programme of reform, and to have had the chance to work with excellent officials at DG FISMA and in my own team.

I came to Brussels as someone who had campaigned against Britain joining the euro and who was sceptical about Europe. I will leave it certain that, despite its frustrations, our membership was good for our place in the world and good for our economy. But what is done cannot be undone and now we have to get on with making our new relationship with Europe work as well as possible.

Does he understand he's fundamentally contradicted himself? His resignation speech sounds like Dave's. It's not in any way reassuring or clear.

I think what he's saying is that when he became High Commissioner, he was a Eurosceptic, but after working with the EU, he's realised that, despite its flaws, it's the best place to be.

[ephemerid]

In fairness to Baron Gidiot (and he is one person I really really don't like being fair to) he is at a summit of EU finance ministers. So not AWOL.

OGRPPFGTCC, however, is now probably sat on his lardy arse quaffing claret and telling Sam what to wear when he starts his lecture tours.
After all, she won't have her £53,000 PA taxpayer-funded stylist to advise her that resignation-wear is a harlequin-print frock, will she?

HindleA - I appreciate your irritation/anger (?) at the intellectual snobbery (because that's what it is) in some quarters; but I'm sad to say that in many cases it is justified.
As Refitman mentioned earlier, some people are saying that they'll vote differently "next time" - evidently failing to grasp that (in theory, at least) there won't BE a "next time".

There is ignorance and stupidity on both sides of most arguments, and there is in this; but although I can't say that people who voted Leave are thick, some of the more vocal ones are giving every impression being a bit dense. Sorry, but there it is.

How I wish someone who voted Leave for reasons other than "we want our country back", "stop them coming in", etc.etc. would talk to me!
I have my own ideas on what I'd like to see reformed in the EU had we decided to stay - issues around TTIP, more power-sharing, less power in just a few hands. better communications generally, more support and less punishment for Greece and others.... I could go on.
The problem for me before the vote and now is that any left-wing support for Leave just didn't get its arguments across; unfortunately, it IS the voices of the ignorant (in knowledge and personality) that made the most noise. I think people are reacting to what they're hearing.

I am not inclined to be kind to such people. I am very angry with them - but even more so with the mendacious leaders of the Leave campaign who are rapidly distancing themselves from the very propaganda that won them the vote. And the MSM. Disgraceful.

[Maeght]

I think I could go with Keir Starmer. Dan Jarvis is a no-no for me.

I have always really liked Keir Starmer. He is clever. He can take tough decisions and deal with the criticism/abuse. But I think he is just learning to be an MP and being extra careful about what he says to whom.

I went to hear him talk with Melissa Benn and Rafael Behr last year -
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... eir-hardie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was struck how cautious he was. He only showed how well he could speak when he was talking about Keir Hardie's back story.

Later I reflected that maybe he did have plans to be leader but , given the pasting that Corbyn was taking at the time (and since ) he was feeling his way very carefully.

I would hate to think he might be pushed into it before he is ready.

Like you, Dan Jarvis is a no-no for me.

[ohsocynical]

The first of many obituaries.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/24/dav ... s-failure/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very good. I'm dead pleased at beginning to see mention of him in the history books...It's annoying me no end I won't be here to read it.

[ohsocynical]

Its all Corbyn's fault, though. Polly Toynbee said so!

I suppose we should be kind and remember she is an ex LibDem....

[howsillyofme1]

Just reading that Lammy has proposed a second referendum

It is an interesting approach for Labour as a good number of the voters voted for stay and, as long as A50 is not invoked they could keep this option open.

The party supported the referendum but they did not have it in their manifesto. Constitutionally it was clear in the bill that the referendum is advisory so there is no absolute that the result will change the relation with the EU

If A50 is not invoked, or even if it is - I am sure it could be stopped despite what everyone says if we go back cap in hand - and there is a crisis in the economy then perhaps it could be an option - especially if it is clear that the Leave have no plan and that they cannot deliver their promises

It is a long shot and very risky but we may need some alternative thinking

[TR'sGhost]

"Who's in charge here?"
"Er...no-one"

Shouldn't the Cabinet Secretary as the civil servant with the highest seniority start to make his presence felt at times like these?

The Cabinet Secretary is very politically constrained in what he can publicly say or do and like all civil servants his duty is to the Crown and the elected government of the day. I wouldn't anticipate any public statements from that quarter at all. Political restrictions and strict confidentiality requirements are obviously necessary in many civil service posts. Which is one reasonwhy Mrs TRG isn't a presence here or anywhere remotely political.

If times were such that the Cabinet Secretary were to feel the need to rally and steady the troops and appeal to their to their loyalty to the Crown, the sevice and the country I suppose sending an "all staff" email in the small hours of a Friday morning might be one way he could do it. But we'll never know for sure because it would be confidential.

[TobyLatimer]

Its all Corbyn's fault, though. Polly Toynbee said so!

I suppose we should be kind and remember she is an ex LibDem....

And SDP. Feckin splitter.

[citizenJA]

Have we had a good article or communication from UK citizens living in EU countries? Their reaction to the referendum result?

[ohsocynical]

Just reading that Lammy has proposed a second referendum

It is an interesting approach for Labour as a good number of the voters voted for stay and, as long as A50 is not invoked they could keep this option open.

The party supported the referendum but they did not have it in their manifesto. Constitutionally it was clear in the bill that the referendum is advisory so there is no absolute that the result will change the relation with the EU

If A50 is not invoked, or even if it is - I am sure it could be stopped despite what everyone says if we go back cap in hand - and there is a crisis in the economy then perhaps it could be an option - especially if it is clear that the Leave have no plan and that they cannot deliver their promises

It is a long shot and very risky but we may need some alternative thinking

Has anyone asked the EU what they think?

I don't reckon it would go down too well.....And haven't we already caused a financial crisis?

Edited to add. And there's no guarantee enough people would change their minds ... and then what?

[citizenJA]

Just reading that Lammy has proposed a second referendum

It is an interesting approach for Labour as a good number of the voters voted for stay and, as long as A50 is not invoked they could keep this option open.

The party supported the referendum but they did not have it in their manifesto. Constitutionally it was clear in the bill that the referendum is advisory so there is no absolute that the result will change the relation with the EU

If A50 is not invoked, or even if it is - I am sure it could be stopped despite what everyone says if we go back cap in hand - and there is a crisis in the economy then perhaps it could be an option - especially if it is clear that the Leave have no plan and that they cannot deliver their promises

It is a long shot and very risky but we may need some alternative thinking

Has anyone asked the EU what they think?

I don't reckon it would go down too well.....And haven't we already caused a financial crisis?

Snap!

[TobyLatimer]

And she gave us this nugget

The Tories were right: workfare really works http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the ... 80874.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howsillyofme1]

Just reading that Lammy has proposed a second referendum

It is an interesting approach for Labour as a good number of the voters voted for stay and, as long as A50 is not invoked they could keep this option open.

The party supported the referendum but they did not have it in their manifesto. Constitutionally it was clear in the bill that the referendum is advisory so there is no absolute that the result will change the relation with the EU

If A50 is not invoked, or even if it is - I am sure it could be stopped despite what everyone says if we go back cap in hand - and there is a crisis in the economy then perhaps it could be an option - especially if it is clear that the Leave have no plan and that they cannot deliver their promises

It is a long shot and very risky but we may need some alternative thinking

Has anyone asked the EU what they think?

I don't reckon it would go down too well.....And haven't we already caused a financial crisis?

Edited to add. And there's no guarantee enough people would change their minds ... and then what?

Of course you are right and I do not think that we will have very long before the clock starts ticking....I was just musing on how we can get out of the hole dug for us all

It is just an absolute catastrophe and I don't think most people have any idea of what is coming

And that is before we get to the actual detail of revising all our laws, renegotiating all these trade deals and persuading the devolved assemblies to comply on rescinding parts of their constitutional rights as defined in the devolved acts

There will be no British Government for the next 5 years at least - but if the only other option is the current lot then that might not be a bad thing

[gilsey]

Mark Gettleson
‏@MarksOutOf100

Liverpool votes Remain when demographically similar places heavily Leave. Perhaps because @TheSun hasn't been sold there for 27 years #EUref

The same thought had occurred to me, and no doubt others.

[Willow904]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36200778" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rules that will drastically alter cigarette packaging are set to be adopted, after big tobacco firms failed to block new European Union laws.
Europe's highest court upheld a law that will standardise packaging and ban the advertising of e-cigarettes.

https://www.quora.com/Who-benefits-if-the-euro-fails" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who benefits if the euro fails?
If the euro is the loser, who will be the winners?

Manufacturers outside the EU. The euro makes the European market more efficient by reducing barriers to trade. If the euro fails, it will increase the costs to European exporters, making goods from their competitors (most notably the US and China) more attractive.

Just a couple of examples of the kind of things rattling around in my head. There are dark forces out there who will, at the very least, attempt to capitalize on the current situation. This is an extremely dangerous time for the EU and therefore for Europe. And leaving the EU most definitely doesn't protect us from the effects of negative political or economic events affecting our geographical neighbours and main trading partners.

[ohsocynical]

I think I could go with Keir Starmer. Dan Jarvis is a no-no for me.

Me too. Anyone who undermined Corbyn will not get my support

I remember before Corbyn's name was put forward. Jarvis and Starmers names were suggested. It was Jarvis's for the taking. A very popular choice but he turned it down because of family commitments...Widowed and with two young sons? That was only a year ago. In terms of two young sons without their mother it's far too soon. If he suddenly says he's up for the job, I'd be very suspicious. And then he blotted his copybook by sniping at Corbyn. He was a left wing choice, but in hindsight was that what we'd have got?

Starmer is being sensible. He's new intake. Unknown territory. Again only a year later it's still too soon. No way would I put my faith for a new style party in him. Not yet.

The others who stood before don't seem to have covered themselves in glory. Andy Burnham's the only one who's moved on and achieved something [Hillsborough] but according to what I've read, his bid for Mayor is lagging badly. And he's upset people by suggesting something to do with immigration. [Can't remember exactly what].

McDonnell's had a good run. He wasn't a popular choice at first, but I think he's carried himself very well.

[gilsey]

Just reading that Lammy has proposed a second referendum

It is an interesting approach for Labour as a good number of the voters voted for stay and, as long as A50 is not invoked they could keep this option open.

The party supported the referendum but they did not have it in their manifesto. Constitutionally it was clear in the bill that the referendum is advisory so there is no absolute that the result will change the relation with the EU

If A50 is not invoked, or even if it is - I am sure it could be stopped despite what everyone says if we go back cap in hand - and there is a crisis in the economy then perhaps it could be an option - especially if it is clear that the Leave have no plan and that they cannot deliver their promises

It is a long shot and very risky but we may need some alternative thinking

Has anyone asked the EU what they think?

I don't reckon it would go down too well.....And haven't we already caused a financial crisis?

Edited to add. And there's no guarantee enough people would change their minds ... and then what?

Of course you are right and I do not think that we will have very long before the clock starts ticking....I was just musing on how we can get out of the hole dug for us all

It is just an absolute catastrophe and I don't think most people have any idea of what is coming

And that is before we get to the actual detail of revising all our laws, renegotiating all these trade deals and persuading the devolved assemblies to comply on rescinding parts of their constitutional rights as defined in the devolved acts

There will be no British Government for the next 5 years at least - but if the only other option is the current lot then that might not be a bad thing

If there was a way to backtrack I'd support it. We've lost our credibility and influence but younger people would have the opportunity to rebuild it over the years.
The influence of the current govt on the EU hardly seems to have been benign anyway.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I think I could go with Keir Starmer. Dan Jarvis is a no-no for me.

Me too. Anyone who undermined Corbyn will not get my support

I was genuinely interested in Jarvis a year ago, but I fear he is another A Johnson - appealing "back story" but not much else. His speech to Progress just after the GE looked promising, but his recent interventions have been much more banal and uninteresting.

The game playing over Syria late last year was not endearing either.

[ohsocynical]

Just reading that Lammy has proposed a second referendum

It is an interesting approach for Labour as a good number of the voters voted for stay and, as long as A50 is not invoked they could keep this option open.

The party supported the referendum but they did not have it in their manifesto. Constitutionally it was clear in the bill that the referendum is advisory so there is no absolute that the result will change the relation with the EU

If A50 is not invoked, or even if it is - I am sure it could be stopped despite what everyone says if we go back cap in hand - and there is a crisis in the economy then perhaps it could be an option - especially if it is clear that the Leave have no plan and that they cannot deliver their promises

It is a long shot and very risky but we may need some alternative thinking

Has anyone asked the EU what they think?

I don't reckon it would go down too well.....And haven't we already caused a financial crisis?

Edited to add. And there's no guarantee enough people would change their minds ... and then what?

Of course you are right and I do not think that we will have very long before the clock starts ticking....I was just musing on how we can get out of the hole dug for us all

It is just an absolute catastrophe and I don't think most people have any idea of what is coming

And that is before we get to the actual detail of revising all our laws, renegotiating all these trade deals and persuading the devolved assemblies to comply on rescinding parts of their constitutional rights as defined in the devolved acts

There will be no British Government for the next 5 years at least - but if the only other option is the current lot then that might not be a bad thing

But who's going to run the country? she wails.

[yahyah]

Kwasi Kwartang (on the BBC) is also under the impression that we've just had an election. It went uncorrected, of course.

Unfortunately a lot of people seem to think it was an election, and that by voting Leave they were voting for the anti-immigration party.

[yahyah]

It's over two million signatures