FlyTheNest

NonOxCol wrote:JHB gets schooled by - the horror! - actual voters on her ludicrous and sadly not unique view that combined support for Labour and the Tories = 80% plus support for hard Brexit.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:John McDonnell saying single market membership incompatible with the referendum result. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted.

The UK is, and I am sorry for swearing, completely fucked.

your opinion is valid but, as with most of yours, is given with a certainty which is not supported by your ability in actually being right

A little bit of humility may be worth considering.....

SpinningHugo wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:John McDonnell saying single market membership incompatible with the referendum result. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted.

The UK is, and I am sorry for swearing, completely fucked.

your opinion is valid but, as with most of yours, is given with a certainty which is not supported by your ability in actually being right

A little bit of humility may be worth considering.....

Corbyn also ruled out single market membership on Marr.

No free movement. No single market. No customs union therefore possible.

That is hard Brexit.

SpinningHugo wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:John McDonnell saying single market membership incompatible with the referendum result. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted.

The UK is, and I am sorry for swearing, completely fucked.

your opinion is valid but, as with most of yours, is given with a certainty which is not supported by your ability in actually being right

A little bit of humility may be worth considering.....

Corbyn also ruled out single market membership on Marr.

No free movement. No single market. No customs union therefore possible.

That is hard Brexit.

13:43

Donald Trump has told Theresa May in a phone call he does not want to go ahead with a state visit to Britain until the British public supports him coming. Patrick Wintour reports. (Politics Live, Guardian)

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Rumours Yvette Cooper could return as Shadow Home Secretary. Would be a big statement that Corbyn serious about security & government.

Pundits getting it in the neck, I see. A few points:
[blah blah blah]
so spare me the pomposity and the confected rage, and grow up. Or go read the Canary.

RogerOThornhill wrote:Ooh, yes please.

Keiran Pedley‏Verified account
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Rumours Yvette Cooper could return as Shadow Home Secretary. Would be a big statement that Corbyn serious about security & government.

Diane Abbott showed in the campaign that she really isn't up to being a cabinet minister.

yahyah wrote:

RogerOThornhill wrote:Ooh, yes please.

Keiran Pedley‏Verified account
@keiranpedley
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Rumours Yvette Cooper could return as Shadow Home Secretary. Would be a big statement that Corbyn serious about security & government.

Diane Abbott showed in the campaign that she really isn't up to being a cabinet minister.

Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

PorFavor wrote:

13:43

Donald Trump has told Theresa May in a phone call he does not want to go ahead with a state visit to Britain until the British public supports him coming. Patrick Wintour reports. (Politics Live, Guardian)

RogerOThornhill wrote:Ooh, yes please.

Keiran Pedley‏Verified account
@keiranpedley
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Rumours Yvette Cooper could return as Shadow Home Secretary. Would be a big statement that Corbyn serious about security & government.

Diane Abbott showed in the campaign that she really isn't up to being a cabinet minister.

NonOxCol wrote:And further to the condescension point, we have this...

Pundits getting it in the neck, I see. A few points:
[blah blah blah]
so spare me the pomposity and the confected rage, and grow up. Or go read the Canary.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It actually manages to get worse when people start engaging with him. No, really.

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

yahyah wrote:

RogerOThornhill wrote:Ooh, yes please.

Diane Abbott showed in the campaign that she really isn't up to being a cabinet minister.

Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

Hi yahyah completely agree.

There's no reason to think Corbyn won't offer it (see a year ago linked below). So I guess the question really is whether Ed will accept.

The obvious place is energy and environment, where Ed is incredibly knowledgeable.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... abinet-job" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-hints-ed-miliband-labour-shadow-cabinet-job

Jeremy Corbyn has said that Labour will...demand....
In an interview on the Andrew Marr Show notable for the confidence he exuded...

Temulkar wrote:Caroline won't be taking up a shadow post in the Labour party. Nor would I as a Green want her to.

Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

jeremy-corbyn-hints-ed-miliband-labour-shadow-cabinet-job
Why not the big one, Foreign Office? EdM shadowing BJ

Lucas for environment.

And while I'm on a flight of fancy, Clegg for chief Brexit negotiator, he's got nothing else to do.

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Reflecting back on all this, I realise I'm still desperate for a space for people to discuss what an alliance of European nations (called the EU or whatever) would ideally look like.

If we could all talk about what the EU could be, rather than what it is and what it shouldn't be, we might all end up in a much happier place.

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:.

Only slightly less directly Hard Brexit was presented to the electorate and it lost by about the same margin (unless you think everyone voting DUP was voting for Brexit).

So, democratically speaking the "will of the people" is fairly clear. Soft Brexit. Which will be infernally hard to deliver, but the government needs to try.

howsillyofme1 wrote:

Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

jeremy-corbyn-hints-ed-miliband-labour-shadow-cabinet-job
Why not the big one, Foreign Office? EdM shadowing BJ

Lucas for environment.

And while I'm on a flight of fancy, Clegg for chief Brexit negotiator, he's got nothing else to do.

why demote Thornberry?

MIliband to be there but there needs to be some loyalty to those who have stood by him through all the last year of abuse, and the bruising campaign

And Clegg? Why? He is as unpopular as Blair...

gilsey wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:

Hope it is true. It would be good to see Ed M offered a job too.

jeremy-corbyn-hints-ed-miliband-labour-shadow-cabinet-job
Why not the big one, Foreign Office? EdM shadowing BJ

Lucas for environment.

And while I'm on a flight of fancy, Clegg for chief Brexit negotiator, he's got nothing else to do.

why demote Thornberry?

MIliband to be there but there needs to be some loyalty to those who have stood by him through all the last year of abuse, and the bruising campaign

And Clegg? Why? He is as unpopular as Blair...

It was a joke.

tinyclanger2 wrote:

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Reflecting back on all this, I realise I'm still desperate for a space for people to discuss what an alliance of European nations (called the EU or whatever) would ideally look like.

If we could all talk about what the EU could be, rather than what it is and what it shouldn't be, we might all end up in a much happier place.

agree and attempted a couple of times in a small brainless way to initiate such discussion. like what kind of coalition building is going on with respect to a pan-European progressive alliance, what are the fundamental issues we need to collective address, what are the existing barriers to that, and where do we currently have the largest amount of common ground. The problem will be in trying to hold people together where they agree rather than risk people separating out on the basis of mutual dislike or by focusing on where they don't agree. Even where you have like-minded people working on a fairly specific common issue, you can get as many groups splintering off due to some small disagreement as you can bring together over a common goal.

But am up for discussing further - definitely.

The purpose will be to enable Britain to have access to the Single Market and customs union, while also achieving improvements in economic policies across the European Union and the Eurozone. Already our European partners are discussing the necessary Treaty changes to enable the Eurozone to work more effectively. This provides an ideal opportunity to discuss issues that could enable a positive and mutually beneficial economic, social, security and environmental framework for the relationship between Britain and current European partners.

gilsey wrote:

tinyclanger2 wrote:

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Reflecting back on all this, I realise I'm still desperate for a space for people to discuss what an alliance of European nations (called the EU or whatever) would ideally look like.

If we could all talk about what the EU could be, rather than what it is and what it shouldn't be, we might all end up in a much happier place.

agree and attempted a couple of times in a small brainless way to initiate such discussion. like what kind of coalition building is going on with respect to a pan-European progressive alliance, what are the fundamental issues we need to collective address, what are the existing barriers to that, and where do we currently have the largest amount of common ground. The problem will be in trying to hold people together where they agree rather than risk people separating out on the basis of mutual dislike or by focusing on where they don't agree. Even where you have like-minded people working on a fairly specific common issue, you can get as many groups splintering off due to some small disagreement as you can bring together over a common goal.

But am up for discussing further - definitely.

Have we had this?
http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... o-act-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The purpose will be to enable Britain to have access to the Single Market and customs union, while also achieving improvements in economic policies across the European Union and the Eurozone. Already our European partners are discussing the necessary Treaty changes to enable the Eurozone to work more effectively. This provides an ideal opportunity to discuss issues that could enable a positive and mutually beneficial economic, social, security and environmental framework for the relationship between Britain and current European partners.

Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn)

Cancellation of President Trump's State Visit is welcome, especially after his attack on London's mayor & withdrawal from #ParisClimateDeal.
June 11, 2017

(Politics Live, Guardian)

howsillyofme1 wrote:why would anyone think that Jeremy Corbyn would have won seats off the Tories and, as leader, would hold the Tories to a hung Parliament, increasing the Labour vote by 10%?

Not me, and definitely not you

Difference is that I do not arrogantly assume that my opinion is anything but my assessment of the situation which can be completely wrong for a variety of reasons

I thought the Tories would have a majority of 30-40 seats - how wrong I was!

You have no idea what the EU are prepared to do and negotiate - what they will not want to do I assume is give any concessions to a May-led aggressive negotiation.

No-one has negotiated an Exit before so we have no model - neither do the EU

This election suggests that the electorate have a different view than the Tories so we can see what that means for our negotiation

The problem is that it looks like the Tories will still be in charge of the negotiations and May's past record suggests she will be crap at it - trouble is for her she will not now be able to get her ideas back through the HoC

It is a nightmare and she has made a complete mess of it all - potentially not only a hard Brexit but a chaotic Brexit which may be even worse

howsillyofme1 wrote:you mistake the point I am making

My predictions are often wrong but I know that

Your predictions are always wrong but you still speak in certainties

I am not bothering to argue with you on specific points as you never listen to anyone else's opinion unless it agree with yours

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/n ... er_Brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
THE Conservative leader on Bradford Council has slammed his party’s wish to strike a “shabby” deal with the Democratic Unionist Party.

Councillor Simon Cooke took to Twitter to say: “Ian Paisley, founder of the DUP hated me just for being Catholic. Please explain how I’m supposed to support this shabby deal with them?”

Cllr Cooke also said he agreed with re-elected Conservative MP for Shipley, Philip Davies, that the public was tired of austerity and wanted an alternative.

gilsey wrote: Have we had this?
http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... o-act-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The purpose will be to enable Britain to have access to the Single Market and customs union, while also achieving improvements in economic policies across the European Union and the Eurozone. Already our European partners are discussing the necessary Treaty changes to enable the Eurozone to work more effectively. This provides an ideal opportunity to discuss issues that could enable a positive and mutually beneficial economic, social, security and environmental framework for the relationship between Britain and current European partners.

First, a stronger commitment to full, good quality employment should become a primary, not secondary aim of Article 3.3 of the Treaty on European Union.

PorFavor wrote:Damien Green has been moved to the Cabinet Office. That leaves the DWP up for grabs.

gilsey wrote:Have we had this?
http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... o-act-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...it is crucial that Labour and allies put forward an alternative European strategy straight away.

Labour should pursue two major complementary policy goals. The first: to end austerity, and implement a Green New Deal across Britain.
This will lead to investment in infrastructure and the creation of skilled and unskilled jobs locally, especially targeted toward areas of low-paid, insecure employment.

The second major policy goal: to reset the framework and relations with our European partners; and to gain policy space and Treaty reforms which benefit British citizens as well as all Europeans.

...it is most important to ensure that we have time. For this to happen we must seek to extend the Article 50 timeline to at least four-years. But this requires Britain now to make clear that it would fully honour all budget commitments during this period and in particular, confirm that EU citizens resident in the UK would have their rights protected. This should include a commitment to pay our fair share for the future mutual benefits arising from our future framework of partnership.

tinyclanger2 wrote:Heather Stewart ✔ @GuardianHeather
"The PM is a woman of extraordinary qualities": This WhatsApp from Boris doesn't sound *at all* as though it was meant to be leaked... " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Progressive alliances are the future of British politics
Caroline Lucas

It is incumbent on progressives in the House of Commons to work together to oppose the cruel agenda of those in government and to build a vision of a more confident and caring Britain. ...I know that the progressive alliance helped us reduce the Conservative majority. At this election, what was new was not the idea of an alliance, something that has been talked about in the run-up to most recent elections, but the fact that the first step was made towards one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... h-politics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 wrote:(apologies to both SH and HSOM for intervening, but I make these small attempts with good intention)

PorFavor wrote:

tinyclanger2 wrote:Heather Stewart ✔ @GuardianHeather
"The PM is a woman of extraordinary qualities": This WhatsApp from Boris doesn't sound *at all* as though it was meant to be leaked... " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Quite. It's part of his manoeuvres. Look loyal and then regrettfully have to fill the breach.


Edited to add -

Well - have a go at filling the breach, anyway.

Paul Johnson ✔ @paul__johnson
Damian Green: First Secretary of State.
Effectively deputy PM.
Was most pro-Europe in Cabinet.
May into reverse
http://gu.com/p/6tpf4?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …