FlyTheNest

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am going to say one shocking thing now that makes me ill but has fleeted through my mind so I wanted to get it on paper to remind myself in future times

The one small ray of hope at the moment is that Teresa May could beat Boris - I think, of all the candidates who are likely to become PM she is the only one who could get something even slightly palatable

There I said it

I've been meaning to say it, too, if that makes you feel less shamefaced!

AngryAsWell wrote:& now the tories are taking away her right to speak for her country

Jamie RossVerified account
‏@JamieRoss7
Today's Tory amendment takes out the mandate for Sturgeon to talk to EU member states and rails against #indyref2.

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Her country is the UK. The Scottish electorate confirmed this in 2014. Of course she can express a personal opinion but as FM she has no mandate on foreign affairs - they are a reserved matter.
Holyrood is a devolved parliament with a specific remit. Even as a 'Remainer' I can't see how she can improve matters - she doesn't have the authority. (Some might say she's just trying to push her party's single agenda).

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am going to say one shocking thing now that makes me ill but has fleeted through my mind so I wanted to get it on paper to remind myself in future times

The one small ray of hope at the moment is that Teresa May could beat Boris - I think, of all the candidates who are likely to become PM she is the only one who could get something even slightly palatable

There I said it

I said something similar last night. I was almost sick as well

NonOxCol wrote:

citizenJA wrote:

Not going to endear your party to the electorate, Tories, not with that in your manifesto.
Osborne runs away with independent fortune to comfort him.

Their heads should be on f***ing spikes.

(cJA edit)
Thank you for this, good imagery.
The last six years of Tory government and historical treatment of scoundrels

Murdoch says Brexit vote was wonderful

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/liv ... a1d7b04ad8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eric_WLothian wrote:

AngryAsWell wrote:& now the tories are taking away her right to speak for her country

Jamie RossVerified account
‏@JamieRoss7
Today's Tory amendment takes out the mandate for Sturgeon to talk to EU member states and rails against #indyref2.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Her country is the UK. The Scottish electorate confirmed this in 2014. Of course she can express a personal opinion but as FM she has no mandate on foreign affairs - they are a reserved matter.
Holyrood is a devolved parliament with a specific remit. Even as a 'Remainer' I can't see how she can improve matters - she doesn't have the authority. (Some might say she's just trying to push her party's single agenda).

Thanks, you are right of course, I'm comparing how she has conducted herself throughout this - at least offering a plan - to England's shambolic "parliamentarians" - something I perhaps should no do, not being Scottish (although a small part of me is, somewhere along the lines)

AngryAsWell wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am going to say one shocking thing now that makes me ill but has fleeted through my mind so I wanted to get it on paper to remind myself in future times

The one small ray of hope at the moment is that Teresa May could beat Boris - I think, of all the candidates who are likely to become PM she is the only one who could get something even slightly palatable

There I said it

I said something similar last night. I was almost sick as well

There's light at the end of the tunnel and it's Theresa May.

Mind you, I've always thought (and have said so here) that I think she's one of the better ones. I'm ready to be proved wrong . . . .

I do hope the plotters arent so stupid to pick someone who voted for the Iraq War with Chilcott next week, that would take their stupidity past monumental to brobdignagian - Oh Angela Eagle

PorFavor wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am going to say one shocking thing now that makes me ill but has fleeted through my mind so I wanted to get it on paper to remind myself in future times

The one small ray of hope at the moment is that Teresa May could beat Boris - I think, of all the candidates who are likely to become PM she is the only one who could get something even slightly palatable

There I said it

I've been meaning to say it, too, if that makes you feel less shamefaced!

I was in Italy last week and the only UK papers available were the Mail, Express and Telegraph. The latter seemed the least worst option (I washed my hands after handling it). They ran a list of "possibles" for leader. I can't remember all the candidates - but I thought May was the most likely. Ruth Davidson was also on the list, which shows a certain amount of desperation (she's not even eligible).

Pat Glass who has just been appointed as Shadow Education Secretary is standing down at the next election. Which of course might be soon.

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Shame that - I watched a fair number of Edu Select Committees and know she was respected on all sides for her knowledge.

AngryAsWell wrote:& now the tories are taking away her right to speak for her country

Jamie RossVerified account
‏@JamieRoss7
Today's Tory amendment takes out the mandate for Sturgeon to talk to EU member states and rails against #indyref2.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh no

Now, Corbyn lost Wales through his lack of willing. Is there no limit to his powers? It's a shame there are so few Labour MPs in Wales, they could've used their profile and standing to push the remain case hard...

Jane Samuels ‏@Jane_Samuels 7m7 minutes ago
Jane Samuels Retweeted newsdirect wales
Welsh Assembly give committee chair of "climate change, environment & rural affairs" to UKIP climate deniers

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I see in the Grauniad there is another Corbyn complain from the Wales Stronger In Leader Stewart Owadally

The thing is when you look into him you find he was involved in Liz Kendall's leadership team

I am not saying what he says is completely wrong but all these voices coming from the sidelines seem to have some sort of thread of similarity running through them....

And does Carwyn Jones and his organisation not have a big role to play....we keep hearing that the devolved paries want more power but when things go wrong it is always the fault of the centre

utopiandreams wrote:Thanks for that, yahyah, but I was out of nappies before I was one. Mind you who could blame my mum we lived in a twelve foot caravan back then.

So did I about that time.Have we ever been seen together?

Rebecca wrote:

Willow904 wrote:

Rebecca wrote:

Of course you have a choice,and have had a choice.
September 2015,labour leadership election.You had a choice.If you didn't vote for Corbyn that's sad for you but you do know he won by a very large margin indeed.
Referendum,you had a choice how to vote.Very sadly for the country,there was a majority vote for leave.
The PLP are using a bucketful of foul means to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn,so sucks to anyone who had a choice and voted for him.
They should have another leadership election and win by fair means if they can,something you could also vote how you choose to.
Seems to me from your posts that you want more than a choice,you want YOUR choice.
That is not democracy.

No, democracy is this. If Labour doesn't offer me what I want and need from a political party, I will leave and join another party. This is true of all of us and we comment here, on a political forum, to express when we approve (I really liked Ed, though I always understood that he didn't really appeal to quite a lot of Labour voters) and we express when we disapprove. I'm just explaining why I can't, personally, support Jeremy Corbyn any longer. There are concrete logical reasons, but mostly there are lot of emotional, incoherent reasons. I have gone over these. I understand that there are a lot of people in the Labour party who are going to stand by Jeremy Corbyn to the bitter end and they are right to do so, if that's how they feel. I'm not trying to change any minds, I'm trying to give you an insight into how not everyone in Labour feels the same and why the intransigence on both sides will pull the party apart.

Well yes,I'm not arguing with that.
But,complaining that Corbyn attended the rally,as if that was all he has done since the referendum strikes me as somewhat dishonest.
I get that you don't like him,never have,but don't like the selectiveness of your complaints.

With only 24 hours notice, 10,000 people gather to voice their support. Bit rude not to turn up I'd have thought.

I'm confused. Why is David Cameron "locked in talks" with his EU counterparts? What's he talking about? I thought he'd washed his hands of it all and that was why he resigned.

PorFavor wrote:I'm confused. Why is David Cameron "locked in talks" with his EU counterparts? What's he talking about? I thought he'd washed his hands of it all and that was why he resigned.

Looking for a nice little earner for when he has time on his hands?

Temulkar wrote:

Willow904 wrote:

Temulkar wrote: I do honestly think that will change over the course of the next few months but not now, and I really don't think JC would be an impediment to changing tack when it became politically possible to do so.

I disagree. I think Corbyn is already an impediment to changing tack and I think the longer he's in charge the harder it will be. Pointing out two other parties waiting to embrace disappointed "remainers" just further underlines how careful Labour has to be not to lose the 63% while chasing after the 27%. I'm not sure you're right that no one in Labour will offer what I want, but that doesn't make Corbyn any more appealing. Someone who doesn't do what I want but is at least competent might be acceptable. Someone who is working behind the scenes to sort things out, rather than indulging in adulation rallies would be a start.

Well lets hope that someone of that ilk can be found and they can stand against him in a democratic election and if they win have a mandate to lead the party.

But I'm one of the 63%, and it's not going to drive me into the arms of another party. Some will. Some won't.

Graham Allen's stance is good, and surprised me given his close relationship with he who shall not be named.

PorFavor wrote:I'm confused. Why is David Cameron "locked in talks" with his EU counterparts? What's he talking about? I thought he'd washed his hands of it all and that was why he resigned.

'well you see this Jeremy Corbyn, he was just soooooo unenthusiastic about things. I know because our spy who is there to undermine him told me.....just after she told the press very loudly. He is so silly he told the truth about it all being austerity and not immigration.......that is what lost it us!

My party was so united....but there wer 2 or 3 rebel MPs in Labour'

I said earlier that I thought it was more likely that Boris voted remain than Corbyn did Leave....what are the odds for Cameron voting Leave? He certainly hasn't looked very upset

PorFavor wrote:

AngryAsWell wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am going to say one shocking thing now that makes me ill but has fleeted through my mind so I wanted to get it on paper to remind myself in future times

The one small ray of hope at the moment is that Teresa May could beat Boris - I think, of all the candidates who are likely to become PM she is the only one who could get something even slightly palatable

There I said it

I said something similar last night. I was almost sick as well

There's light at the end of the tunnel and it's Theresa May.

Mind you, I've always thought (and have said so here) that I think she's one of the better ones. I'm ready to be proved wrong . . . .

I thought she might. She's been keeping well out of the limelight recently.

ohsocynical wrote:

Rebecca wrote:

Willow904 wrote: No, democracy is this. If Labour doesn't offer me what I want and need from a political party, I will leave and join another party. This is true of all of us and we comment here, on a political forum, to express when we approve (I really liked Ed, though I always understood that he didn't really appeal to quite a lot of Labour voters) and we express when we disapprove. I'm just explaining why I can't, personally, support Jeremy Corbyn any longer. There are concrete logical reasons, but mostly there are lot of emotional, incoherent reasons. I have gone over these. I understand that there are a lot of people in the Labour party who are going to stand by Jeremy Corbyn to the bitter end and they are right to do so, if that's how they feel. I'm not trying to change any minds, I'm trying to give you an insight into how not everyone in Labour feels the same and why the intransigence on both sides will pull the party apart.

Well yes,I'm not arguing with that.
But,complaining that Corbyn attended the rally,as if that was all he has done since the referendum strikes me as somewhat dishonest.
I get that you don't like him,never have,but don't like the selectiveness of your complaints.

With only 24 hours notice, 10,000 people gather to voice their support. Bit rude not to turn up I'd have thought.

When I saw that photo of the rally I thought
1)I am so glad they all came to support him after two days of relentless shit from the plp
2)I cannot equate that image with the 'unelectable' meme.The only other politician in the uk who could manage something like that is Nicola Sturgeon.If you lived elsewhere,would you look at the scene and think,'god,that guy is totally unelcatble?'
3)why on earth don't the labour party take advantage of Corbyns support instead of denigrating it all the time?

Watson may well argue that he would be better placed to beat Corbyn in a leadership contest. He won the deputy leadership contest quite easily last year, when Eagle came fourth. But Eagle, an excellent Commons performer who also did well in the ITV referendum debate (Politics Live, Guardian)

No she didn't (do well in the ITV referendum debate). I was very disappointed in her.

HindleA wrote:

utopiandreams wrote:Thanks for that, yahyah, but I was out of nappies before I was one. Mind you who could blame my mum we lived in a twelve foot caravan back then.

So did I about that time.Have we ever been seen together?

6 months.....Yah boo sucks

He's not going to survive is he ? Despite my earlier optimism that he might ride it out I just wish he would now lance the boil and get it over with. He will never get to deliver the things that got me to willingly part with three quid and vote for him because the party won't allow him to.

I would like to get behind the new as yet unknown leader, in the same way I would have expected the PLP to pull together after last September and get behind Corbyn.

At the moment though I'm pretty low again with the whole caboodle in Westminster, as others have expressed I am on the verge of saying fuck it to politics and let them get on with it. Nothing is going to change for the better in my lifetime, I can't be arsed to contribute anymore.

PorFavor wrote:I'm confused. Why is David Cameron "locked in talks" with his EU counterparts? What's he talking about? I thought he'd washed his hands of it all and that was why he resigned.

It's taking him a long time to explain why we are leaving the eu,but not yet,no hurry with article 50,no sirree.But we are definitely leaving.Maybe.

PorFavor wrote:

Watson may well argue that he would be better placed to beat Corbyn in a leadership contest. He won the deputy leadership contest quite easily last year, when Eagle came fourth. But Eagle, an excellent Commons performer who also did well in the ITV referendum debate (Politics Live, Guardian)

Watson? Blimey, you should see the reception he's getting on Twitter. He is not popular.

PorFavor wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am going to say one shocking thing now that makes me ill but has fleeted through my mind so I wanted to get it on paper to remind myself in future times

The one small ray of hope at the moment is that Teresa May could beat Boris - I think, of all the candidates who are likely to become PM she is the only one who could get something even slightly palatable

There I said it

I've been meaning to say it, too, if that makes you feel less shamefaced!

I think she does have principles, even if they are often misguided.

She's been receiving death threats, according to the BBC. (Pre the Jeremy Corbyn situation and during the EU referendum campaign, I gather.)

Edited to add - The post is about Pat Glass and was meant to be a response to RogerOThornhill's earlier post.

This going to get nasty if it goes to an election, and if Corbyn wins there could be a few MPs in tricky positions

They have to get rid of him now and watch out for even more unpleasant tactics if he refuses to go tonight

Hello Angela,

At the CLP AGM on Friday 24th June 2016, delegates asked me to write to you to ask you to reject the motion of no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn. The meeting was overwhelmingly behind Jeremy continuing as Labour leader. Your appearance on TV during the post referendum programme was mentioned. Your response in putting the question of his leadership aside to deal with the issues was welcomed. The idea that the Labour Party would rather miss the chance to capitalise on the splits in the Tory party by in fighting was not acceptable to members. On behalf of the constituency I would ask you to make a clear public statement of support for him.

Regards Kathy Miller & Kathy Runswick Secretary & Chair Wallasey CLP

PorFavor wrote:She's been receiving death threats, according to the BBC. (Pre the Jeremy Corbyn situation and during the EU referendum campaign, I gather.)

deleted

mbc1955 wrote:

Willow904 wrote:
Tim Farron has said he will fight to re-join the EU and that message is far more appealing to me than Corbyn right now. I'm not really advocating overturning anything, just saying the Tories wanted out so they can take us out as far as I'm concerned (although I think they could be capable of that kind of anti-democratic act whether your approve of it or not and I wouldn't put it past them to come out as heroes if they did do a u-turn when the dust has settled and the economy has tanked). Labour should have nothing to do with it.

If you want to cause a fight, you're going about it the right way. Get over yourself and accept that people disagree with you and don't sneer.

I'm out of here.

How is saying I prefer Tim Farron's message post-Brexit picking a fight? I'm not saying Corbyn is wrong, lots of people will be in agreement with him I'm sure, I'm just saying that having never really been convinced by him I now understand that a large part of that is because I have some wildly different views to him on this subject. I hope Labour may pick a different leader and find a message I feel more comfortable with, but I completely understand I may be in a small minority and will have to think about moving on. I'm saying what I would like to see from Labour in no expectation that my desires are any more valid than anyone else's or anymore likely to happen.

This is why last night I resolved to move on from this. I don't what I said that is sneering. I feel maybe people are taking it personally that I didn't like Corbyn's response to the referendum. I can't help feeling that way, so I'll try not to comment about it anymore. And please remember this is about feelings, gut reaction, not right or wrong or logic. A direct response to what I heard Corbyn say on Saturday, not anything else.

Hands up everyone who is going to willingly support the Labour Party again.

PLP: Roll up, roll up. Vote in the next leadership election. Then, when we in the PLP decide that your choice was a bad one the day the results are announced, we'll knife them in the back at whatever opportunity we get next and we'll keep doing it repeatedly until they either resign or lose the next leadership election because *they* failed. So you can do this all over again, again. Is that OK with you?

The people: Erm. No thanks. Think I'll go join the Greens/SNP/LDs/UKIP/Tories/Monster Raving Loonies instead.

I thought there was a no flouncing rule on here.
Wilow, say what you want for I see no harm in what you say. I may not agree about Corbyn but this isn't an echo chamber and you're one of the best posters on here. Ditto RR2.

Random comment/thought: on the 'voters have legitimate concerns about immigration, we should listen to them' meme. This is an example of how we have ceded control of our language to the racists and the far right. If we truly believe that voters have legitimate concerns but it ISN'T actually linked to immigration we should never, ever be using that phrase. Ever. It should be 'voters have concerns that the NHS is underfunded' or 'voters have concerns that not enough houses are being built' etc. Using the sloppy, populist shorthand of fascists just legitimises their racism.

Tory leader now by 9th September.

I want two things right now. No, three.

1. I want my gallstones removed. Immediately. They fucking hurt.

2. I want to thank everybody here for engaging in reasonable discussion, providing links to interesting stuff, and being in disagreement at times but still civilised. You, Fledglings, are an example to the commentariat just about everywhere else. Thank you.

3. I want to be the Queen. If I was, I'd dissolve Parliament. On the basis that the one we have is not functioning.
MPs would be sent to their constituencies, and local people would be asked to instruct them on what they want from their MPs.
MPs swear an oath of loyalty to me and to their constituents, and they need to be told what their job actually is.
As Queen, I'd be in charge of the Armed Forces, whose loyalty is to me, and have them on standby to restore order.
The Civil Service would be told to prepare plans or whatever for me to take to the EU, where I'd do some straight talking to sort this mess out.

Ooh that's more like it.....

frightful_oik wrote:I thought there was a no flouncing rule on here.
Wilow, say what you want for I see no harm in what you say. I may not agree about Corbyn but this isn't an echo chamber and you're one of the best posters on here. Ditto RR2.

Well done, Oik. I agree.

Singer Jamelia apparently racially abused....

...there's a rather disturbing twist to this one.

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172 v 40 against Jeremy Corbyn (BBC).

Edited to add an "n" and to clarify that the 172 were against

It occurs to me that the PLP internal revolt just might have less to do with making Labour "more electable" than it has to do with making Labour thoroughly big-business-friendly at a time when the UK is in deep ecomonic and social crisis.

And making Labour more electable is a very secondary thought in the minds of the plotters.

Vis a vis Willow's comments and the counter arguments the past few days:

I'm in agreement with all who are saying we can't just overturn or not implement the democratic vote of the referendum. We lost. It doesn't matter how or why, we lost. It would be anti-democratic to simply overrule it.

Conversely, I am 100% behind Willow's assertion that this does need to be overturned but in my view that has to happen democratically. We need to force an election and the remain camp, whoever it may be, needs to run on that "we will not leave the EU" ticket. If there really are enough people to support it, then it gets overturned democratically. If there aren't, then sorry it has to happen. We leave the EU.

frightful_oik wrote:I thought there was a no flouncing rule on here.
Wilow, say what you want for I see no harm in what you say. I may not agree about Corbyn but this isn't an echo chamber and you're one of the best posters on here. Ditto RR2.

Thanks. I do appreciate that. It's frustrating, because I agree about respecting the fact more people voted out and I know I upset mbc1955 because I didn't articulate that clearly. It's quite complicated to explain why I want the Tories to act on the result of the referendum they held and for Labour not to say anything other than "where is the government?". It would upset me to see Labour working alongside the Tories to make this happen. Maybe if Corbyn had left more time before talking about Brexit negotiations, or hadn't kept encouraging Cameron to do it as soon as possible....I don't know. Another sad day in a run of sad days.

Willow904 wrote:

mbc1955 wrote:

Willow904 wrote:
Tim Farron has said he will fight to re-join the EU and that message is far more appealing to me than Corbyn right now. I'm not really advocating overturning anything, just saying the Tories wanted out so they can take us out as far as I'm concerned (although I think they could be capable of that kind of anti-democratic act whether your approve of it or not and I wouldn't put it past them to come out as heroes if they did do a u-turn when the dust has settled and the economy has tanked). Labour should have nothing to do with it.

If you want to cause a fight, you're going about it the right way. Get over yourself and accept that people disagree with you and don't sneer.

I'm out of here.

How is saying I prefer Tim Farron's message post-Brexit picking a fight? I'm not saying Corbyn is wrong, lots of people will be in agreement with him I'm sure, I'm just saying that having never really been convinced by him I now understand that a large part of that is because I have some wildly different views to him on this subject. I hope Labour may pick a different leader and find a message I feel more comfortable with, but I completely understand I may be in a small minority and will have to think about moving on. I'm saying what I would like to see from Labour in no expectation that my desires are any more valid than anyone else's or anymore likely to happen.

This is why last night I resolved to move on from this. I don't what I said that is sneering. I feel maybe people are taking it personally that I didn't like Corbyn's response to the referendum. I can't help feeling that way, so I'll try not to comment about it anymore. And please remember this is about feelings, gut reaction, not right or wrong or logic. A direct response to what I heard Corbyn say on Saturday, not anything else.

Politician's answer.

When you said that the Tories might act in a way I wouldn't 'whether (I) approve or not', you started sneering at me. Is that few enough syllables for you to understand?

ephemerid wrote:I want two things right now. No, three.

1. I want my gallstones removed. Immediately. They fucking hurt.

2. I want to thank everybody here for engaging in reasonable discussion, providing links to interesting stuff, and being in disagreement at times but still civilised. You, Fledglings, are an example to the commentariat just about everywhere else. Thank you.

3. I want to be the Queen. If I was, I'd dissolve Parliament. On the basis that the one we have is not functioning.
MPs would be sent to their constituencies, and local people would be asked to instruct them on what they want from their MPs.
MPs swear an oath of loyalty to me and to their constituents, and they need to be told what their job actually is.
As Queen, I'd be in charge of the Armed Forces, whose loyalty is to me, and have them on standby to restore order.
The Civil Service would be told to prepare plans or whatever for me to take to the EU, where I'd do some straight talking to sort this mess out.

Ooh that's more like it.....

I want, I want. That's you all over, that is. (Posted in the spirit of civilised debate!)

ephemerid wrote:

frightful_oik wrote:I thought there was a no flouncing rule on here.
Wilow, say what you want for I see no harm in what you say. I may not agree about Corbyn but this isn't an echo chamber and you're one of the best posters on here. Ditto RR2.

Well done, Oik. I agree.

You'd prefer I use the unparliamentary language that was the alternative? I can oblige if you'd rather, but I think I'll spend some time away since the level of respect for other's opinions is no longer as advertised on the tin.

PorFavor wrote:172 v 40 agaist Jeremy Corbyn (BBC).

That's quite horrible, isn't it?

Oh dear.

NonOxCol wrote:Singer Jamelia apparently racially abused....

...there's a rather disturbing twist to this one.

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Knowing a number of the members and former members of the organisation involved, I'm afraid this doesn't disturb me. It is probably quite routine. That's what disturbs me.

Come on, we can disagree and still have space for each other surely ?
Not sure we should be telling Hugo to shut up. I don't agree with a lot of what he believes but he has an uncomfortable knack of poking at things that maybe sometimes need poking.

I find myself agreeing with everyone in turn at the moment. It's like watching a tennis match.
Head spinning here and there.

But I really would have no enthusiasm for Maria Eagle as leader.
Is this the problem for Labour, where are the big beasts ?
Do such people still exist ? Reading history books on Labour politics the names of so many hard hitters come at you. From all sides of the party, not just the left.

My own tin foil hat theory of the day....that all this chaos is deliberate. That the right wingers want disarray, panic, and an economic tsunami. Then they come in with a 'hard man' leader, curb our rights, slash the state even further, and run the country like a banana republic but without the sunshine.

& mbc & willow, please don't go.