Monday 30th November 2015

[Tubby Isaacs]

Saw this earlier and notwithstanding the fact that practically everyone had spotted what the ST said went "unreported" and also that there really isn't anything like 26,000 primary schools in England (try 16,770), Osborne's bit at the bottom only talks of secondary schools.

Does that mean they've realised there is no way on earth of getting every school to be an academy by 2020 and are concentrating on secondaries only?

Love the old "only lefties oppose academies" stuff. No mention of parents...

[Temulkar]

Were Militant really that left wing? I skim read the Michael Crick book on them, and the impression I got was that lots of what they did was old fashioned municipal socialism. The problem was that Liverpool was in an especially bad state, not just for industrial decline, but having had (unusuall for a big city) low spending Liberal councils. They actually managed to persuade the Thatcher government that Liverpool was a special case, but they got stupidly carried away with that victory. They were also stupidly sectarian, disagreeing with other groups because the "analysis" was wrong.

But HindleA was much closer to it than me or Crick.

Cells of them were. There was a genuine trotskyite belief that they could bring about the revolution. Macdonnel's quip about Mao made me smile, because I can remember Dad lying on a mattress in his new house in the late seventies, looking like Wolfie Smith, with a Mao poster behind him, and Dylan on the tape deck. He would call it being bohemian, my Mam would say he was a bloody beatnik. (They divorced in the early 70s).

He did not appreciate it when I studied historical theory and started pointing out the obvious mistakes in Marxist/Leninist/Trotskyist theory of history. Although he sent me a text when the run on Northen Bank happened telling me it was the begining of the end of capitalism. You never know, he may have been right on that score.

I have all his different party badges Militant/NUM/NUT/NUS etc in a box. Lapel badges went out of fashion in the 90s till Dubya started with his little flag. I don't notice any of the kids in school wearing them though. I wonder why.

[rebeccariots2]

Paul Flynn ‏@PaulFlynnMP 7m7 minutes ago
Owen Smith cool and reasonable on Newsnight trying to balance opinion between Leader, PLP, members and country

Yes - he was. Maitliss was anything but cool and reasonable - constantly talking over and not letting him finish a sentence. I won't mourn Newsnight in its current form if it disappears.

[seeingclearly]

And run as an independent, or join the Liberal Democrats....

Surely the point of the Labour Party is to represent those that the Tories don't represent? Because if they don't do that what are they actually there for? It is at the heart of all the negative stuff we have seen, the red tory labels, and a lot more, and the Situation in Scotland too. It is time that this notion that it is all framable through the politics of the past is dropped, because it simply isn't true. It isn't true of Corbyn either, he is more in tune with what we, as citizens, avtually are, and what we want to see than the right of Labour, and the Tories are. Failing to support him will send people into the arms of UKIP, because where else is there to go. With apologies to Tem, because many people really don't relate to the Greens, not because of what they are, but because they are simply too hard pressed to take on the changes needed. There isn't another party for the masses, and if the people at the top refuse to listen to the people, then that is a very real problem, and one that is not going away.

Nowhere did I say Labour should simply offer Tory policies. Miliband certainly didn't. The problems of this country cannot be fixed by the Tories because their donors are the benefactors of those problems.

For your assertion Corbyn is in tune with people to be true his opinion poll ratings would have to be high, and Labour members views would closely correlate with those of the general public.

The opposite seems to be true, which means we are already seeing a divergence between the party and the country. Which means I am not simply saying what happened before will happen again, I am pointing out that there is strong evidence that what happened before is happening right now.

While I would argue that a lot of that divergence is not caused by what and what not is Labour policy, because reslly most people believe or disbelieve in things like trident and syria independent of their political affiliations, and for sure lots of people don't really have those affiliations to any great degree. The biggest motor to these kind of divergences is propagands, ehich the tories have all sewn up.

We are not that different in essence, then, are we?

[citizenJA]

PFI- another issue Corbyn can't be bothered to understand properly.

https://colinrtalbot.wordpress.com/2015 ... ting-them/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are frequently critiqued as PFI project X – e.g. build a hospital – will cost 10 zillion times what the cost of the hospital through direct state spending.

The misunderstanding, or “wilful blindness”, is quite simple – the PFI contract was not to “build a hospital” but to “build a hospital, do all the maintenance on it and provide all sorts of building and back-office services for (usually) its lifetime.”

Colin Talbot is no fan of PFI either.

PFI? Okay. Here's the the contract. Responsible for building made for the UK taxpayer. Forever. Sign here. Wait, where you going?

Private enterprise doesn't have the kind of ultimate fiscal 'insurance' like a monetarily sovereign nation possesses, or at least, private enterprise won't like being made to take on that fiscal responsibility. There's other things private enterprise can do okay. Private enterprise will be fine.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Funny, Kinnock didnt boot my father despite Dad calling him a 'fucking quisling' to his face during the strike. Admittedly my father did not last much longer in the party.

Leftwingers, provided they had some distance from Militant, were OK. Even most of the London municipal left, who unlike Militant, were pretty much middle class, with little local popularity.

Not even Blair tried to kick Arthur Scargill out. He left himself in 1996.

Militant was very different to what we are seeing now. I walked back into a Britsin with Militant and with a husband in Longbridge it was the backdrop of our days. This, definitively is not the same. That was unreasonable and what we see now isn't, or at least the unreasonableness is not of the same nature atall. I think RR articulates this well, so need for me to repeat.

I think so- this is something much more general than Militant was, basically the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy, with some of the mechanisms they fought for already in place, and a leader they like.

It'll have to be careful not to be seen as a "party within a party" though, even if you can level the same accusation at Progress.

[Temulkar]

Funny, Kinnock didnt boot my father despite Dad calling him a 'fucking quisling' to his face during the strike. Admittedly my father did not last much longer in the party.

Leftwingers, provided they had some distance from Militant, were OK. Even most of the London municipal left, who unlike Militant, were pretty much middle class, with little local popularity.

Not even Blair tried to kick Arthur Scargill out. He left himself in 1996.

Militant was very different to what we are seeing now. I walked back into a Britsin with Militant and with a husband in Longbridge it was the backdrop of our days. This, definitively is not the same. That was unreasonable and what we see now isn't, or at least the unreasonableness is not of the same nature atall. I think RR articulates this well, so need for me to repeat.

As an outsider looking on, it is not momentum that have the destructive tendencies of Militant. The Blairite wing will be leaping for joy if Oldham is lost, and it will all start up again.

[rebeccariots2]

John McTernan
‏@johnmcternan John McTernan Retweeted Millie
I represent the majority of Labour voters who want a Labour government

Millie
‏@Millie_77
Dear @bbcnews please stop interviewing @johnmcternan for labour views, he doesn't represent majority labour view. Your bias is shocking.

So there you have it.

[seeingclearly]

I think you make a number of excellent points. However this is mainly about people who are fed up with moving away from Miliband/Kinnock than Blair/Brown.

I will define moderate as anybody from the left, centre left, right, who believes the primary function of the Labour Party is to find a way to beat the Tories in a general election, and that this can only be achieved by presenting a set of credible policies that are reasonably in tune with the majority of the electorate.

This in my view does not include the Bennite Left.

In theory the moderate wing of the party should recruit members, Blair grew the membership - but only after he was elected. The issue is that groups like Momentum (militant 2 as I see them) seek to dominate policy to a large degree by excluding moderate views. This is why moderates get called red Tories and why they are leaving in some numbers. There is a reason Corbyn's shock troops abuse their opponents on social media (despite his best efforts to stop them) that is because it works.

Realistically you can't recruit people with moderate views into Corbyn's party because they don't agree with much of what he says, and it is a hostile environment when they arrive. This means that the membership starts to become the number one barrier to winning power. Their views increasingly diverge from the majority (as shown in recent polling) and as they impose policy the party simply excludes itself from serious electoral consideration. Inevitably you end up with something that looks like the 1983 manifesto.

The worry is many of these people are happy to lose elections and now (for the first time ever) the Bennites are in charge I don't see what the recovery mechanism is post 2020. I cannot remember how Kinnock pulled the party out of its death spiral in 84, but even a Kinnock figure might find it takes 15 years to get back to power. Labour 2035 anybody?

Sorry TE - you posted just before I went off to have a bath (got to observe some niceties before getting on a train tomorrow).

Leaving aside such biggies as your definition of moderate - I suppose, from what you say above, are you basically telling me you think we've got the wrong kind of membership? Well if so - maybe we are doomed. I can only speak from the membership I know - but these are the people putting in the work - and who have been putting in the work for years and years. I have to say that those putting in the work here really want to win elections ... but the reason they get out and put the work in is because they want to make things better ... We've had a big influx of new members since Corbyn was elected - and many are willing to come out with us - and also to start new projects so that Labour can be a community organisation - an evident force for good.

Can we win the next and future elections without these people doing that work? That might be the most pertinent question?
.

It is that this pattern tends to create a membership that has little in common with popular opinion. This isn't a problem if the party recognises the problem and tries to pitch towards the much maligned centre ground. This is not necessarily where the Tories are now by the way, Miliband viewed it as to the left of them and I think he was broadly right. Labour members should be to the left of their manifesto with a view to moving the country slowly to the left over time (Blair failed in some ways to do that, but succeeded in others).

I think the question to bear in mind is that if the membership finds it doesn't reflect the broad opinions of the country is it prepared to move its mindset in order to win, or is it happy to carry on losing.

The former type of member adds a stabilising force, because eventually it does something different to achieve a result. The latter type are in some ways to be admired for their conviction, but you don't want many in a party.

The argument always needs to be framed in terms of what can be done to provide an attractive party to the voters, and sadly that includes winning Tory voters. When you start asking what do the members want, versus what do the voters want, I think you have lost the election.

I think all the point you put forward were more than adequately addressed by the appointments to the SC . And for this reason I think the dissenters - the identified troublemakers, not those who have different opinions - should pipe down and stop trying to bring the leadership down. They are playing to the media and the tory gallery, and trying to pull things their way for no good reason. A repeat of what happened with Ed. Todays outcomes are good. And I agree eith your assessment of the Tory position.

Now we should be considering how best the Syrian people can be helped, because for sure that is not on Daves mind at all. And god help them if he is praying for them.

[HindleA]

Only viewed as a miniscule part,but sounds about right.They were very popular for a time,my Militant MP increased his vote.Memories may be skewed by looking back,Degsy was the one everybody remembers,he was the Deputy,Hamilton the actual leader,a sort of mutual accommodation of "old" and "new"that "worked" for a while.

[frog222]

Incidentally, while it was painful getting there where Labour is now on Syria is where it should be.

Individual MPs making their own decisions based on the arguments and the views of their constituents (not momentum). McDonnell to his complete credit has stated a free vote should mean free from threats of deselection.

This now causes Cameron an issue. Osborne can't use Labour aren't prepared to fight terrorists as an attack line (briefly used this morning when Corbyn's aides were pushing the whipped vote story). So his upside is now largely gone.

Worse Cameron now has to come back with a serious proposal and serious answers. If he screws up he could easily flip the Labour pro interventionists to anti and lose votes from his own side. If Hilary Benn stands up and says sorry PM but that is bollocks he is probably sunk, so he needs an answer.

Even when he wins the vote he still has issues. He will need to show results in months, which means the current status quo of stalemate and perpetual war that the west has been happy with will no longer do. He is going to have to fix Turkey, Saudi arms supplies and find an accommodation with Russia.

Otherwise Labour (from both sides of the debate) will hold him to account.

It won't be the Labour Party with problems on Wednesday.

Brilliantly explained! Yes, excellent.

Sensible Opinion is slowly but increasingly aligned with the (unfortunately rather limp-wristed) Corbyn .

Hindsight indicates that he should have cut his association with StopTheWar, and very definitely laid to rest any ideas that he wouldn't personally shoot any motha killing civilians out in the street .

Pretty simple !

[seeingclearly]

Leftwingers, provided they had some distance from Militant, were OK. Even most of the London municipal left, who unlike Militant, were pretty much middle class, with little local popularity.

Not even Blair tried to kick Arthur Scargill out. He left himself in 1996.

Militant was very different to what we are seeing now. I walked back into a Britsin with Militant and with a husband in Longbridge it was the backdrop of our days. This, definitively is not the same. That was unreasonable and what we see now isn't, or at least the unreasonableness is not of the same nature atall. I think RR articulates this well, so need for me to repeat.

As an outsider looking on, it is not momentum that have the destructive tendencies of Militant. The Blairite wing will be leaping for joy if Oldham is lost, and it will all start up again.

I cannot speak for everywhere, Tem, but I've been getting the invitations etc., from momentum here in brum, can't participate or even do more than look in, but I know some of the people personally, they have none of the characteritics of Militant at all, but rather have been engaged in longterm single issue activism for many years, much as many people are. Just ordinary people moved by the things that have persuaded them there is a change needed. Sometimes such groups do get colonised by the less scrupulous, the people I see here avoided that in the past to I am hoping they will be a positive direction for Labour here.

[HindleA]

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015 ... -new-study" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Men are from Mars, women are from Venus? New brain study says not

[citizenJA]

I don't agree with the name calling, but do understand the desperation for representation that it comes out of. A lot of people who do this come from places that are generationally poor and where no aspects of regeneration ever reached. I have worked in places like this, they are not all post ndustrial wastelands, neither do they fit stereotypical descriptors. But they are there, and the representation of the past from both Labour and Conservatives, has been poor to say the least, and what we have now is appaling. In some places voting in LibDem councillors helped, but again not at national level. The disconnect with the real lives that people lead needs to be addressed. We now have a stupid vacancy, call it a vacuum, into which Cameron is attempting to insert some kind of perverse tory ideology that they are the real friends of the people! In many ways they can do this because of the failures of Labour as perceived by the people. Because of the narratives they swallow. You know, socialism, anti business, anti private property, proto communist rubbish. The way right wing factions everywhere frame the narratives, it isn't just here.

For sure the Labour years were much better than now, but we have a bunch of bullies in power, real nasties as some of the earlier posts demonstrate. Unscrupulous people. How does it look to those who don't really get politics, who read the papers and don't really know how to find the truth in them, when part of the Labour Party sides with the people who oppress them? or if you look at it from another perspective how does it look to those who buy into the false narratives through ignorance or self interest?

I am sure that people here are trying to find the means to ensure we are led well by respinsible people, no matter where they find that. But we aren't that representative ourselves. So if I shout the outside picture, with as open a mind as possible, it doesn't really constitute or infer anything personal, its just saying the dynamics outside are very different from in here, or in the media,or even those of the past. with regard to the last, a lot of people out there have such a bizarrely revisionist view of the past that it really makes you wonder about where their opinions are formed, they seem nearly as fundamentalist as the issues that provoked all this discussion.

You've reminded me of something I wanted to post today. Tristram Hunt, Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent Central, has e-mailed and posted his latest report to his constituents this afternoon. Tristram Hunt canvasses stout heartedly. Among other things Tris Hunt does for the people here, he regularly knocks on doors and if he's not told to go away (or worse) he talks with everyone who'll speak with him. Stoke-on-Trent has large number of constituents supporting UKIP. Tristram Hunt works to give people better representation than UKIP can provide, in my opinion. Good on him. He's doing his work without being a baby about it. I like him for that. My husband isn't as pleased with Mr. Hunt and that's fine.

[HindleA]

In error.

[citizenJA]

John McTernan
‏@johnmcternan John McTernan Retweeted Millie
I represent the majority of Labour voters who want a Labour government

Millie
‏@Millie_77
Dear @bbcnews please stop interviewing @johnmcternan for labour views, he doesn't represent majority labour view. Your bias is shocking.

So there you have it.

You most certainly do not, you pompous blowhard!

[citizenJA]

I'm name-calling, how immature, it's time for sleep.
Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

[HindleA]

As opposed to Labour voters who don't want a Labour Government.TSK.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Cayman Islands reject Cameron’s tax offensive

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ab2e2952-9538 ... z3t1Mra6qR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alden McLaughlin, the premier of the Cayman Islands, told its legislative assembly on November 26 that he had turned down the latest request of the UK government to give law enforcement agencies direct access to beneficial ownership information. “To do otherwise would place the Cayman Islands at a competitive disadvantage with other jurisdictions that do not permit unfettered access to beneficial ownership,” he said.

[Tubby Isaacs]

As opposed to Labour voters who don't want a Labour Government.TSK.

Be fair, after Scotland and Australia, he's on a winning streak.

[HindleA]

Applause was for Benn,apparently.

[RogerOThornhill]

Oh look, now who's this one?



A bit small but that was the remark I made about the Marcher Lord twitter thing this morning.

I might be wrong but I'd hazard a guess at this being Chickie. It has had a bit of a giggle with Rusty at our expense before.

[HindleA]

If that doesn't make sense,look at previous posts,it is late and I can't be bothered explaining,then again I have taken longer saying I am not explaining so I might as well.There was mention of a loud round of applause for some unidentified person during the SC,I am presuming it was for him.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Cayman Islands reject Cameron’s tax offensive

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ab2e2952-9538 ... z3t1Mra6qR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alden McLaughlin, the premier of the Cayman Islands, told its legislative assembly on November 26 that he had turned down the latest request of the UK government to give law enforcement agencies direct access to beneficial ownership information. “To do otherwise would place the Cayman Islands at a competitive disadvantage with other jurisdictions that do not permit unfettered access to beneficial ownership,” he said.

Great spot Tubby. This is potentially explosive. What will Dave & George do now?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Cayman Islands reject Cameron’s tax offensive

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ab2e2952-9538 ... z3t1Mra6qR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alden McLaughlin, the premier of the Cayman Islands, told its legislative assembly on November 26 that he had turned down the latest request of the UK government to give law enforcement agencies direct access to beneficial ownership information. “To do otherwise would place the Cayman Islands at a competitive disadvantage with other jurisdictions that do not permit unfettered access to beneficial ownership,” he said.

Great spot Tubby. This is potentially explosive. What will Dave & George do now?

It sounds like Bermuda is being more responsive. I reckon they could say "progress being made, more to do etc".

Nicholas Shaxson is an expert on tax havens, and he's got a post below the line. He thinks that the UK can force the issue much more than it can.

[HindleA]

Blame the Attlee Government.

[RogerOThornhill]

Incidentally, I notice that the Edu Select Committee has announced a new theme for which they'll be taking evidence.

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/education-sele ... n-england/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This hasn't gone down well...waste of time and money is the general reaction.

Edit - no idea what happened there if anyone saw that!

[Tubby Isaacs]

Wow, look who's turned up here! Special Advisor to Liz Truss.

https://twitter.com/emmaboon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RogerOThornhill]

Wow, look who's turned up here! Special Advisor to Liz Truss.

https://twitter.com/emmaboon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh, jeez...

[seeingclearly]

Funny, Kinnock didnt boot my father despite Dad calling him a 'fucking quisling' to his face during the strike. Admittedly my father did not last much longer in the party.

Leftwingers, provided they had some distance from Militant, were OK. Even most of the London municipal left, who unlike Militant, were pretty much middle class, with little local popularity.

Not even Blair tried to kick Arthur Scargill out. He left himself in 1996.

Oh my father was a militant trot working for the revolution. It is one of the reasons I find comparing Momentum to Militant so very laughable. Momentum is a social democratic movement that Kinnock or Smith or even the early Blair would have welcomed. Militant really were revolutionaries actively trying to bring down the state.

Im way to the left of Corbyn and Momentum and I know I am nowhere near as radical as Militant. So to characterise Corbynism as 'hard left', well, it's just a fucking joke isn't it.

Although having read the July theses many times, I note Corbyn is taking tips from Comrade Ulianov's playbook. He's fortunate that most of his own MP's (along with the tories) have never read what they always sneer at.

As for the Greens not being a mass movement, I would argue that globally we are, and time is on our side - if not the planet's, sadly.

Historical change and process is a strange and beautiful thing. Most of the time, sometimes for centuries on end, not a lot happens and the pace of change is excruciatingly slow. Then we come to periods when lots of different process start to coalesce for a myriad of different reasons. Then change becomes faster and faster spinning out of control. As a good Braudelian I can attribute the environment as both the cause and solution to our problems at the moment. But it's going to get much worse before it gets better.

Thank you Tem, for your longer view, and the way you place it in some kind of historical context. You are informed in a very different way to my own experience, and I have come to value your contributions a lot. I saw evidence of your environmental concerns this year, both on a grand scale and on a human scale too. This last in the form of an 'epidemic' of fatal kidney disease of as yet unidentified cause. That is, not yet scientifically proven, though there is such a bias in science today that one has to be a little sceptical. This epidemic is not in one place, but in several, globally, and mainly among agricultural workers. A relative, medical person, who knows the area and the disease process very well, spoke to me at length of his concerns, fully understanding there is little awareness of it outside the areas that have been hit. It is currently using up an unprecedent amount of the national health budget there, with resources diverted to cope with the catastrophe. Victims run to an admitted tens of thousands, which is a lot in a sparsely populated area. An utterly lovely lush green fertile place, but what a cost. The ground itself is said to be toxic, making the water toxic. The crop is rice, which is a staple. There is no redress because there is no proof of cause, in any of the nations affected. Politically it is a hot potato. The current narrative is to blame a new affluence in the agricultural workers - they no longer use clay pots to cook in, they buy more durable aluminium ones. My relative assures that this is definitively not the clinical cause of kidney disease, the nephrotic damage doesn't indicate that at all. Rice is a grass though, and all the modern methods have been used to increase yields, to saturation point.

I agree on everything you say above, and truly would like to see politicians address the concerns of the future, with some seriousness of intent.

I have related the story above, because I learned of it in the final hours of my time revisiting my former home after decades, and had thought many changes very positive, which they are, but had not seen this lurking underneath. I was more concerned with the diesel tuk-tuks, and still am. But the hidden environmental disaster is a full on issue, part of a wider picture in which individual choice cannot be invoked easily, this is the staple food of millions, and the place is a rice basket for a nation. You can't just choose to do something different, because there is nothing to choose. It isn't like esting quinoa , or walking rather than taking the bus. It is basic food and water issues in one of the most fertile places on earth. Utterly heartbreaking.

[RogerOThornhill]

How odd - I tried to post a pic of the Edu Select Committee page...and it turned into am emoticon.

How did that happen?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Wow, look who's turned up here! Special Advisor to Liz Truss.

https://twitter.com/emmaboon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh, jeez...

How did she get that job? What with the really hard time the Taxpayers Alliance gave them over Johnson's buses, Gove's academies etc...

[RogerOThornhill]

Wow, look who's turned up here! Special Advisor to Liz Truss.

https://twitter.com/emmaboon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh, jeez...

How did she get that job? What with the really hard time the Taxpayers Alliance gave them over Johnson's buses, Gove's academies etc...

Yes, they're a bit...how would you say...selective..in their targets.

[seeingclearly]

The disease is called CKDu. Here is a link.
http://www.sundayobserver.lk/2014/04/13/fea10.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My relative is pretty sure that cadmuim pollution is the cause.
He has a good historical perspective too.
I think this is probably born out by the emphasis on water safety.

In Nicaragua it is called CKDnt
https://laislafoundation.org/epidemic/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These are just two places affected.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Cayman Islands reject Cameron’s tax offensive

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ab2e2952-9538 ... z3t1Mra6qR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alden McLaughlin, the premier of the Cayman Islands, told its legislative assembly on November 26 that he had turned down the latest request of the UK government to give law enforcement agencies direct access to beneficial ownership information. “To do otherwise would place the Cayman Islands at a competitive disadvantage with other jurisdictions that do not permit unfettered access to beneficial ownership,” he said.

Great spot Tubby. This is potentially explosive. What will Dave & George do now?

When is the expirey date on Trident, might as well use one.

The nuclear option to tax evasion?

More seriously, there are mechanisms to sort them out, will Dave use them?