Monday 27th June 2016

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 3:57 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:Caption competition
George-Osborne-reacts.jpg
Osborne forgets where he put his favourite butt plug this morning...

Tea up nose and now in the computer.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 3:58 pm

Maeght wrote:
Temulkar wrote:He's giving a barnstorming speech!
He is just disgraceful. Cannot stop the spiteful remarks - about new Labour MP keeping mobile phone on in case she is asked to be in the SC.

New Unit formed, led by best and brightest? Wonder who they are.

He is just so pleased with himself it isn't true. My contempt is so great I don't know how to express it.

He just fucking disgusts me. It shouldn't even be possible for him to be spun as "statesmanlike". Yet I bet he is. The people who made that joke possible aren't that far behind, either.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 3:58 pm

Rebecca wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:Wow
ScreenShot01445.jpg
ScreenShot01446.jpg

Corbyn was quite right.

Well, yes.

Did the resigners not expect a backlash?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 3:59 pm

Cameron's response to Corbyn was literally incoherent gibberish.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:00 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
Maeght wrote:
Temulkar wrote:He's giving a barnstorming speech!
He is just disgraceful. Cannot stop the spiteful remarks - about new Labour MP keeping mobile phone on in case she is asked to be in the SC.

New Unit formed, led by best and brightest? Wonder who they are.

He is just so pleased with himself it isn't true. My contempt is so great I don't know how to express it.
He just fucking disgusts me. It shouldn't even be possible for him to be spun as "statesmanlike". Yet I bet he is. The people who made that joke possible aren't that far behind, either.

Another example of his suave professionalism. ©Andrew Sparrow

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:00 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
Maeght wrote:
Temulkar wrote:He's giving a barnstorming speech!
He is just disgraceful. Cannot stop the spiteful remarks - about new Labour MP keeping mobile phone on in case she is asked to be in the SC.

New Unit formed, led by best and brightest? Wonder who they are.

He is just so pleased with himself it isn't true. My contempt is so great I don't know how to express it.
He just fucking disgusts me. It shouldn't even be possible for him to be spun as "statesmanlike". Yet I bet he is. The people who made that joke possible aren't that far behind, either.

Confess I'm not watching it.
Emma Bridgewater sale online is more appealing.
But,are we leaving or what?Did the pm say?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:02 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:
ScreenShot01444.jpg

One of those times you wish you'd been there.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:02 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Well, yes.

Did the resigners not expect a backlash?

It appears they can't even successfully demonstrate how to resign so that Corbyn would be able to follow their lead.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:02 pm

Maeght wrote:
Temulkar wrote:He's giving a barnstorming speech!
He is just disgraceful. Cannot stop the spiteful remarks - about new Labour MP keeping mobile phone on in case she is asked to be in the SC.

New Unit formed, led by best and brightest? Wonder who they are.

He is just so pleased with himself it isn't true. My contempt is so great I don't know how to express it.

I think that Temulkar was talking about Jeremy Corbyn.

It was probably one of the bests efforts I've heard from him - if he had managed to refrain from attacking the Labour Members. I'm sure he feels sorely tried but it weakened his attack on the Conservatives and wasn't in the best interests of anyone. Apart from the Conservatives.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:04 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Makes me wonder what the rebels were using for brains...

I think you may have inadvertently hit upon the problem there. It was their brains.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:05 pm

"As Jeremy Corbyn enters the Commons, Dennis Skinner gets up to shake his hand... and then flicks a V-sign at the former shadow cabinet"

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:05 pm

Cameron lies and backtracks and has utterly lost

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:07 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Maeght wrote:
Temulkar wrote:He's giving a barnstorming speech!
He is just disgraceful. Cannot stop the spiteful remarks - about new Labour MP keeping mobile phone on in case she is asked to be in the SC.

New Unit formed, led by best and brightest? Wonder who they are.

He is just so pleased with himself it isn't true. My contempt is so great I don't know how to express it.

I think that Temulkar was talking about Jeremy Corbyn.

It was probably one of the bests efforts I've heard from him - if he had managed to refrain from attacking the Labour Members. I'm sure he feels sorely tried but it weakened his attack on the Conservatives and wasn't in the best interests of anyone. Apart from the Conservatives.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:10 pm

Maeght wrote:
Temulkar wrote:He's giving a barnstorming speech!
He is just disgraceful. Cannot stop the spiteful remarks - about new Labour MP keeping mobile phone on in case she is asked to be in the SC.

New Unit formed, led by best and brightest? Wonder who they are.

He is just so pleased with himself it isn't true. My contempt is so great I don't know how to express it.

Ah I was referring to corbyns speech

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:12 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Maeght wrote:
Temulkar wrote:He's giving a barnstorming speech!
He is just disgraceful. Cannot stop the spiteful remarks - about new Labour MP keeping mobile phone on in case she is asked to be in the SC.

New Unit formed, led by best and brightest? Wonder who they are.

He is just so pleased with himself it isn't true. My contempt is so great I don't know how to express it.

I think that Temulkar was talking about Jeremy Corbyn.

It was probably one of the bests efforts I've heard from him - if he had managed to refrain from attacking the Labour Members. I'm sure he feels sorely tried but it weakened his attack on the Conservatives and wasn't in the best interests of anyone. Apart from the Conservatives.

I think fronting up to the rebels was actually the best bit, he saaid it straight as it is the uk is in chaos and they are acting not in the national interest or the party's but their own.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:12 pm

Well, day four of the omnishambles to end all omnishambles and everything just keeps getting worse.

The non-UKIP/Aaron Banks Leave brigade are in full retreat, confident "we'll have loadsamoney to spread around after Brexit!" of Wednesday having gone through Friday's "well, to be honest maybe we exaggerated a bit" to Monday's "Oh God, what's happening, this wasn't meant to happen, help, erm.. please forget everything we said last week and never, ever mention it again. Ooh look everybody, isn't Corbyn having the really serious problems!"

You will note that when Boris and Herr Fuhrage say they never promised the NHS would get shedloads of cash after Brexit they are being absolutely truthful. What he and the rest of them said was that there would be more money available for the NHS. Well, I have money that's available for the purchase of a parrot, should I desire to own a parrot. Which I don't, not in the slightest. But I do have money available if I did. Which will no doubt boost confidence in the markets specialising in noisy bad-tempered birds with vicious bites, and make me the certain winner of the election for Presidency of the Black Country Parrot Owners Club.

On the subject of honesty, I've a question I'm hoping someone can answer. I'm not being snarky, honestly, but as well as making me a very poor diplomat and politician ASD means I sometimes miss communication nuances that others "get" easily. So I apologise if this comes across as a bit brutal.

I'm seeing lots of people claiming Corbyn "lost it for Remain" when he said in an interview in response to a direct question that no, there is no way to be a member of the EU and restrict or ban immigration/population movement from other EU member states.

My question is this. If that answer was wrong, what answer should he have given?

As I see it he had a few options.

1. Tell the truth, which is widely known and is what he did.
2. Lie and say "of course it is."
3. Claim he didn't know the answer.
4. Waffle about how something will be done, can't tell you what, but there'll be something because reasons.
5. Ooh, look, have you seen what that cat and squirrel are doing in this hilarious Youtube video?

So.
He took option 1.
Option 2 gets the immediate response "but that's not true, is it? Are you ignorant of the EU rules or simply lying like the Brexit campaign says you are? Hurry up, decide which foot do you want to shoot yourself in first and get on with it."
Option 3, see response to (2).
Option 4 'that's interesting, do go on, what specifically are you suggesting? Let's hear some details."
Option 5 "Do you intend to actually answer the question I just asked you? Yes or no, which?"

To be followed by a large choir, all singing in perfect unison-
1. Corbyn tells the truth, disaster, Corbyn must go.
2. Corbyn lies, disaster, Corbyn must go.
3. Corbyn lies, disaster, Corbyn must go.
4. Corbyn waffles rather than answer a straight question, looks indecisive, shifty and ignorant, disaster, Corbyn must go.
5. Corbyn tries to dodge answering simple, straightfoward question, called out on it, disaster, Corbyn must go.

So what am I missing here? What could he have said that would have met with approval from his (and Labour and Remain's) enemies within and without?

Should he have done a reverse-Gove and said "oh, don't ask me, I think I need to ask a few experts before I can answer that?" Because I think we can all work out what the next question would be.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:12 pm

Owen Bennett
‏@owenjbennett
Clegg wants an early general election...probably so he can ~~get~~ [be voted] out of Sheffield ASAP

https://twitter.com/owenjbennett/status ... wsrc%5Etfw
My edit.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:15 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Maeght wrote:
Temulkar wrote:He's giving a barnstorming speech!
He is just disgraceful. Cannot stop the spiteful remarks - about new Labour MP keeping mobile phone on in case she is asked to be in the SC.

New Unit formed, led by best and brightest? Wonder who they are.

He is just so pleased with himself it isn't true. My contempt is so great I don't know how to express it.
Ah I was referring to corbyns speech

Thanks - catching up on tv and fly the nest and not paying enough attention. Too annoyed!

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:16 pm

Temulkar wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Maeght wrote: He is just disgraceful. Cannot stop the spiteful remarks - about new Labour MP keeping mobile phone on in case she is asked to be in the SC.

New Unit formed, led by best and brightest? Wonder who they are.

He is just so pleased with himself it isn't true. My contempt is so great I don't know how to express it.

I think that Temulkar was talking about Jeremy Corbyn.

It was probably one of the bests efforts I've heard from him - if he had managed to refrain from attacking the Labour Members. I'm sure he feels sorely tried but it weakened his attack on the Conservatives and wasn't in the best interests of anyone. Apart from the Conservatives.
I think fronting up to the rebels was actually the best bit, he saaid it straight as it is the uk is in chaos and they are acting not in the national interest or the party's but their own.

I really think that one of the main reasons Corbyn is so hated by his own party and the media et al is because he simply tells the truth.
And I hate liars.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:17 pm

TR'sGhost wrote:...snip...

I think the response the PLP were hoping for was, "I resign"
Doesn't look like they will be getting it though.

Apparently the way to reconnect with all the northern deindustrialised heartlands over Europe was to (2) lie to them about remaining in the EU and immigration. Because that's worked so well in the past, particularly for David Cameron who is now riding the crest of a wave after winning the referendum by a landslide ...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:19 pm

Cameron says he is not planning a white paper on the Brexit negotiations.

Because, you know, that would involve doing some work.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:19 pm

Im even a little tempted to resign the Green Party, and rejoin Labour; these bastards stole my party once and I walked away. Dare I go back for round 2.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:21 pm

Temulkar wrote:Im even a little tempted to resign the Green Party, and rejoin Labour; these bastards stole my party once and I walked away. Dare I go back for round 2.

Do it.Vote for Corbyn.
Promise I'll buy your book,even though I don't like historical fiction.
I will even read it.(only the first one mind)

edited to add;a new copy not used on amazon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:21 pm

TR'sGhost wrote:Well, day four of the omnishambles to end all omnishambles and everything just keeps getting worse.

The non-UKIP/Aaron Banks Leave brigade are in full retreat, confident "we'll have loadsamoney to spread around after Brexit!" of Wednesday having gone through Friday's "well, to be honest maybe we exaggerated a bit" to Monday's "Oh God, what's happening, this wasn't meant to happen, help, erm.. please forget everything we said last week and never, ever mention it again. Ooh look everybody, isn't Corbyn having the really serious problems!"

You will note that when Boris and Herr Fuhrage say they never promised the NHS would get shedloads of cash after Brexit they are being absolutely truthful. What he and the rest of them said was that there would be more money available for the NHS. Well, I have money that's available for the purchase of a parrot, should I desire to own a parrot. Which I don't, not in the slightest. But I do have money available if I did. Which will no doubt boost confidence in the markets specialising in noisy bad-tempered birds with vicious bites, and make me the certain winner of the election for Presidency of the Black Country Parrot Owners Club.

On the subject of honesty, I've a question I'm hoping someone can answer. I'm not being snarky, honestly, but as well as making me a very poor diplomat and politician ASD means I sometimes miss communication nuances that others "get" easily. So I apologise if this comes across as a bit brutal.

I'm seeing lots of people claiming Corbyn "lost it for Remain" when he said in an interview in response to a direct question that no, there is no way to be a member of the EU and restrict or ban immigration/population movement from other EU member states.

My question is this. If that answer was wrong, what answer should he have given?

As I see it he had a few options.

1. Tell the truth, which is widely known and is what he did.
2. Lie and say "of course it is."
3. Claim he didn't know the answer.
4. Waffle about how something will be done, can't tell you what, but there'll be something because reasons.
5. Ooh, look, have you seen what that cat and squirrel are doing in this hilarious Youtube video?

So.
He took option 1.
Option 2 gets the immediate response "but that's not true, is it? Are you ignorant of the EU rules or simply lying like the Brexit campaign says you are? Hurry up, decide which foot do you want to shoot yourself in first and get on with it."
Option 3, see response to (2).
Option 4 'that's interesting, do go on, what specifically are you suggesting? Let's hear some details."
Option 5 "Do you intend to actually answer the question I just asked you? Yes or no, which?"

To be followed by a large choir, all singing in perfect unison-
1. Corbyn tells the truth, disaster, Corbyn must go.
2. Corbyn lies, disaster, Corbyn must go.
3. Corbyn lies, disaster, Corbyn must go.
4. Corbyn waffles rather than answer a straight question, looks indecisive, shifty and ignorant, disaster, Corbyn must go.
5. Corbyn tries to dodge answering simple, straightfoward question, called out on it, disaster, Corbyn must go.

So what am I missing here? What could he have said that would have met with approval from his (and Labour and Remain's) enemies within and without?

Should he have done a reverse-Gove and said "oh, don't ask me, I think I need to ask a few experts before I can answer that?" Because I think we can all work out what the next question would be.

My problem with Jeremy Corbyn is not his "remain" campaign (although I'm aware that many have cited that as at least part of their problem with him).

My problem is my belief that he is not the person to deal with the fall-out. As Liam Byrne said (and I never thought I'd be quoting him as an authority on anything) "the job[of Labour leader] has changed".

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:24 pm

Temulkar wrote:Im even a little tempted to resign the Green Party, and rejoin Labour; these bastards stole my party once and I walked away. Dare I go back for round 2.

Please do Tem.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:27 pm

Charlie Flanagan has appealed today for calm in relation to passport applications.

Ahead of a debate about Brexit’s implications for the Republic in the Dail (Irish parliament) Flanagan said:

An unnecessary surge in applications for Irish passports will place significant pressure on the system and on turnaround times and is likely to impact those with a genuine need for passports to facilitate imminent travel plans.

The increased interest clearly points to a sense of concern among some UK passport holders that the rights they enjoy as EU citizens are about to abruptly end. I want to state clearly that this is not the case. The United Kingdom has voted to leave the European Union but it has not yet left.

It will take some time for negotiations on a British exit to conclude; article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty envisages a two-year negotiation process once the article is triggered, while many speculate this could take longer. During this period, the UK remains a member of the European Union, its citizens continue to fully enjoy EU rights including free movement of people within the EU. At the same time, the referendum has not in any way changed the entitlement to an Irish passport which extends to those born on the island of Ireland and those claiming citizenship through parents or grandparents born in Ireland.

Yes, but it could take very little time for the British economy to tank. That isn't going to wait for 2 years casually drinking coffee and having a ciggie before it starts thinking about happening.

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:27 pm

For those who find corbyn inadequate as a leader at this point what are you looking for (honest question)?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:32 pm

Temulkar wrote:Im even a little tempted to resign the Green Party, and rejoin Labour; these bastards stole my party once and I walked away. Dare I go back for round 2.

Go on ... Be a devil.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:33 pm

In the spirit of mass resignations,I have resigned from the Labour Party ,only to rejoin immediately.That'll teach 'em.Martyr I is.(as well as traitorous scum)Getting a bit confused now (or even more so,if possible)

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:35 pm

HindleA wrote:In the spirit of mass resignations,I have resigned from the Labour Party ,only to rejoin immediately.That'll teach 'em.Martyr I is.(as well as traitorous scum)Getting a bit confused now (or even more so,if possible)

We want to see the letter of resignation or it didn't happen. Preferably on Twitter at hourly intervals because it's impossible to publish letters all in one go. Allegedly.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:35 pm

To be honest its a temptation i will resist, I believe in the greens as a progressive force for good and as a global movement. However we shall see how things play out.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:36 pm

Corbyn's enthusiasm for Remain, or lack of it.

Now, it's been a very long time since I was in a meeting with Jeremy Corbyn present. He was a young, for the time, back-bencher back then. I very much doubt he'd remember meeting me at all, but so what.

Back then, if what became the EU cropped up in a discussion, he was 100% for leaving. So was I. Absolutely in favour. As were most of the trades unions. Nalgo, as was, put out an excellent document through their research section that made a very strong economic argument for exit. Particularly about how the EU rules on member state's borrowing compared to their GDP would inevitably deepen any recession because as GDP fell so would the amount a member state could borrow, thus rendering Keynesian responses impossible and having a strong negative impact on the automatic economic stabilisers that help mitigate the effects of recession.

Since that pamphlet was written the EU requirements it so thoroughly damned have ceased to exist, and most trades unions now support membership, with some caveats, and no union has made leaving the EU a major campaigning point in a very long time.

So applying what I laughingly call a brain to the events and changing circumstances of the last 25 years mean in 2016 I thought a Brexit vote would result in a disaster so I voted Remain. Not because I think the EU is 110% perfect or that to even hint there might be the teeniest bit of a problem is tantamount to treason, but because events and changes in the concrete circumstances of the day mean 2016 is not 1992 and we have to analyse and address the situation we are in, not the one we would like to be in. And the times we are in force us to make choices between lesser and greater evils in the hope of getting the best possible outcome for the ordinary people.

And ignoring potentials for reform, ignoring defending ourselves against the onslaughts of predatory capitalism and proclaiming we should welcome a disaster for our people because it brings the revolution that little bit closer is to abdicate all responsibility for the state of the world. It's magical thinking.

So while I don't know Corbyn's train of thought about the EU over the years, I do know my own and I find it quite believable that he's changed his mind about the situation as well. And like him my support for the EU is provisional. Because I think there are some reforms and changes needed and also because while my crystal ball is usually as reliable as any other, it's not always 100% perfect.

There is a horrible and destructive tendency, thanks to "No U Turns" Margaret and her adoring press, frantic to turn any weakness she had into a virtue, to instantly damn as weak and indecisive any politician or expert in anything who says "On reflection, taking into account what we know now and didn't then and all the changes in the world since, I've changed my mind about something." And to smear them as someone who isn't fit to be listened to because they admitted they made a mistake once, so they might be making other mistakes. Vote for our favourite candidate, who insists they never, ever made a mistake or changed their mind.

It's doing politics, economics, science, everything on the basis that conspiracy theorists accept, believe and propagate total loads of bollocks. Because they can think of an expert who once made an error or lied, therefore all experts are automatically suspect, and none are to be believed. Unless they are "anti-establishment experts" like David Icke, Alex Jones, Galloway, Farage, Tea Partiers or Glenn Beck. None of whom threaten the establishment in the slightest, quite the opposite, they are often part of the establishment themselves and divert attention from what's really going on.

So they're actually doing a very useful job, intentionally or otherwise, for the existing order they claim to oppose because they divert people down blind alleys. Of course, that might change if their constant peddling of bonkers and/or reactionary ideas ever took enough hold to upset the economy, social order and place in the world of a major power of course. But that'll never happen. Will it?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:36 pm

And some good environmental news out of brexit that tubby will unfortunatly hate....

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2016/06/ ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:37 pm

And my last remaining uncle passes away ,suddenly.The year of dying for our family,and it isn't over yet.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:37 pm

@Tem

If a white haired, elderly, everyone's idea of a grandmother, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, inoffensive old lady can do it, so can you.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:40 pm

Candidate for tweet of the day from Mark Steel:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:40 pm

HindleA wrote:And my last remaining uncle passes away ,suddenly.The year of dying for our family,and it isn't over yet.

Mate thats sad.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:40 pm

fedup59 wrote:For those who find corbyn inadequate as a leader at this point what are you looking for (honest question)?

Ideally, someone with a lot of Jeremy Corbyn's beliefs and values (I'm not sure that he is fully engaged with the concept of the EU in any form and I feel that his comfort zone is stuck largely in the early 1970s) but who is more both more engaged and, frankly, engaging. A close fit would do. I don't want to move further right or centre. Yes, I know - who?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:44 pm

Temulkar wrote:
HindleA wrote:And my last remaining uncle passes away ,suddenly.The year of dying for our family,and it isn't over yet.
Mate thats sad.

Of course,everybody has to go through such inevitable things,just would like a bit of respite/recovery time in between.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:45 pm

PorFavor wrote:
fedup59 wrote:For those who find corbyn inadequate as a leader at this point what are you looking for (honest question)?
Ideally, someone with a lot of Jeremy Corbyn's beliefs and values (I'm not sure that he is fully engaged with the concept of the EU in any form and I feel that his comfort zone is stuck largely in the early 1970s) but who is more both more engaged and, frankly, engaging. A close fit would do. I don't want to move further right or centre. Yes, I know - who?

Dennis Skinner

Edit(ed again to make my point more clearly): P.S. What PF said. Though I am not quite as critical of where Corbyn is now as PF is.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:48 pm

HindleA wrote:And my last remaining uncle passes away ,suddenly.The year of dying for our family,and it isn't over yet.

What a year you're having HA...I'm so sorry.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:48 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
fedup59 wrote:For those who find corbyn inadequate as a leader at this point what are you looking for (honest question)?
Ideally, someone with a lot of Jeremy Corbyn's beliefs and values (I'm not sure that he is fully engaged with the concept of the EU in any form and I feel that his comfort zone is stuck largely in the early 1970s) but who is more both more engaged and, frankly, engaging. A close fit would do. I don't want to move further right or centre. Yes, I know - who?
Dennis Skinner

Of course! Why didn't I think of that?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:49 pm

PorFavor wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
PorFavor wrote: Ideally, someone with a lot of Jeremy Corbyn's beliefs and values (I'm not sure that he is fully engaged with the concept of the EU in any form and I feel that his comfort zone is stuck largely in the early 1970s) but who is more both more engaged and, frankly, engaging. A close fit would do. I don't want to move further right or centre. Yes, I know - who?
Dennis Skinner
Of course! Why didn't I think of that?

It would certainly make PMQs bloody entertaining.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:52 pm

TR'sGhost wrote:There is a horrible and destructive tendency, thanks to "No U Turns" Margaret and her adoring press, frantic to turn any weakness she had into a virtue, to instantly damn as weak and indecisive any politician or expert in anything who says "On reflection, taking into account what we know now and didn't then and all the changes in the world since, I've changed my mind about something." And to smear them as someone who isn't fit to be listened to because they admitted they made a mistake once, so they might be making other mistakes. Vote for our favourite candidate, who insists they never, ever made a mistake or changed their mind.

It's doing politics, economics, science, everything on the basis that conspiracy theorists accept, believe and propagate total loads of bollocks. Because they can think of an expert who once made an error or lied, therefore all experts are automatically suspect, and none are to be believed. Unless they are "anti-establishment experts" like David Icke, Alex Jones, Galloway, Farage, Tea Partiers or Glenn Beck. None of whom threaten the establishment in the slightest, quite the opposite, they are often part of the establishment themselves and divert attention from what's really going on.

So they're actually doing a very useful job, intentionally or otherwise, for the existing order they claim to oppose because they divert people down blind alleys. Of course, that might change if their constant peddling of bonkers and/or reactionary ideas ever took enough hold to upset the economy, social order and place in the world of a major power of course. But that'll never happen. Will it?

(cJA edit)

Brilliant, agreed.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:53 pm

@JonnyT1234

Just so's you know - I'm a woman. W O M A N. I'll say it again!

(Altogether now . . . )

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:54 pm

fedup59 wrote:For those who find corbyn inadequate as a leader at this point what are you looking for (honest question)?

David Milliband.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:55 pm

PorFavor wrote:@JonnyT1234

Just so's you know - I'm a woman. W O M A N. I'll say it again!

(Altogether now . . . )

I was talking about Corbyn. (I'm not as critical of where Corbyn is now [than you are]).

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:56 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:@JonnyT1234

Just so's you know - I'm a woman. W O M A N. I'll say it again!

(Altogether now . . . )
I was talking about Corbyn. (I'm not as critical of where Corbyn is now [than you are]).

Ah - I wasn't sure.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:56 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:...he clearly doesn't remember Tony Blair

Well, we do try not to but the bugger just will not go away...

Edit: missing 'not'

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:57 pm

PorFavor wrote:Ah - I wasn't sure.

Or I wasn't clear enough.