Fri 3rd, Sat 4th, Sun 5th & Mon 6th April - Easter edition

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:34 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Which would point the figure at a certain rodent.

Edited to add - no wonder the Telegraph ran the story, damage the Lib Dems gain another 10 Tory seats.
If Carmichael were involved, it could lead to a backlash in Orkney and Shetland. Don't think anyone thought they could have problems there.

If it's real, then it doesn't really prove anything. Think better to hold back from it.

Which seems to be what Labour are doing now. Try to plant the seed of doubt in SNP-leaning voters minds, then wait and see what happens - seems a sensible strategy, tbh.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:36 pm

me nerves

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:38 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Which would point the figure at a certain rodent.

Edited to add - no wonder the Telegraph ran the story, damage the Lib Dems gain another 10 Tory seats.
If Carmichael were involved, it could lead to a backlash in Orkney and Shetland. Don't think anyone thought they could have problems there.

If it's real, then it doesn't really prove anything. Think better to hold back from it.
Which seems to be what Labour are doing now. Try to plant the seed of doubt in SNP-leaning voters minds, then wait and see what happens - seems a sensible strategy, tbh.

At this stage Labour should throw the kitchen sink at the SNP, but don't just go with this as the lead. Argue it is a Tory/SNP stitch-up that will screw the ordinary people of Scotland just so the SNP can force them to independence.

You aren't going to shift the true believers, convince everybody else the SNP will fuck them over financially for a shot at independence.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:43 pm

So no clearer than a few hours ago, nerves indeed Tiny.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:44 pm

The SNP would love a Tory government, but they've said they will vote down a Tory government. I can't see that line working.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:44 pm

: poster-nhs-border.jpg (51.08 KiB) Viewed 5678 times

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:48 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Which would point the figure at a certain rodent.

Edited to add - no wonder the Telegraph ran the story, damage the Lib Dems gain another 10 Tory seats.
If Carmichael were involved, it could lead to a backlash in Orkney and Shetland. Don't think anyone thought they could have problems there.

If it's real, then it doesn't really prove anything. Think better to hold back from it.
Which seems to be what Labour are doing now. Try to plant the seed of doubt in SNP-leaning voters minds, then wait and see what happens - seems a sensible strategy, tbh.

They went too far before. Ought to have been sceptical of the DT and seen that leaks inquiry needed. Go for it after that.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:50 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:The SNP would love a Tory government, but they've said they will vote down a Tory government. I can't see that line working.

They've got form for saying one thing in public and the opposite in private.

From the referendum campaign:

Pensions could be cut and “a much lower budget must be assumed” on defence in an independent Scotland, according to a leaked Scottish Government report.
According to the document, drafted for the cabinet by Finance Secretary John Swinney, “volatility” surrounds oil production and prices.
It also admits Scotland’s population share of debt interest payments would rise by 40% “in cash terms”, public sector jobs could be cut to trim budgets and a £600 million bill would arise from setting up a Scottish tax service.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politi ... ts-1.74858

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:51 pm

My husband's just told me he heard Cameron on Radio 4, and he was acting like a cheap stand up comic making a jibe at Ed, using Sturgeon's alleged comments.

Would Cameron be so stupid to make hay with it if he knew it could be traced back to the Tories.

I notice a rodent was mentioned upthread, was it a red headed one ?
Beaker's as sneaky a little rat as there's ever been, over ambitious too.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:54 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:The SNP would love a Tory government, but they've said they will vote down a Tory government. I can't see that line working.
They've got form for saying one thing in public and the opposite in private.

From the referendum campaign:
Pensions could be cut and “a much lower budget must be assumed” on defence in an independent Scotland, according to a leaked Scottish Government report.
According to the document, drafted for the cabinet by Finance Secretary John Swinney, “volatility” surrounds oil production and prices.
It also admits Scotland’s population share of debt interest payments would rise by 40% “in cash terms”, public sector jobs could be cut to trim budgets and a £600 million bill would arise from setting up a Scottish tax service.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politi ... ts-1.74858

I think go for them as dodgy overall, rather than that their going to prop up Cameron. Leave that as a question.

Seeing they want to wipe out Labour in Scotland and don't care about how they go down in England, they'd love to be taking credit for progressive stuff that a Coalition with Lab did.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:54 pm

yahyah wrote:My husband's just told me he heard Cameron on Radio 4, and he was acting like a cheap stand up comic making a jibe at Ed, using Sturgeon's alleged comments.

Would Cameron be so stupid to make hay with it if he knew it could be traced back to the Tories.

Yes

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 5:55 pm

Ms Sturgeon said: "The real issue is how a second hand and inaccurate account of this meeting - which was not even attended by the UK government - came to be written by a UK Government civil servant and then leaked to Tory-supporting newspapers at the start of a general election campaign. (BBC News website)

That quote was from the period when the Foreign Office was thought to have been responsible - but I guess the general thrust is still valid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32177315

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:00 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Ms Sturgeon said: "The real issue is how a second hand and inaccurate account of this meeting - which was not even attended by the UK government - came to be written by a UK Government civil servant and then leaked to Tory-supporting newspapers at the start of a general election campaign. (BBC News website)
That quote was from the period when the Foreign Office was thought to have been responsible - but I guess the general thrust is still valid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32177315

The Telegraph have said that the Consul was at the meeting between the Ambassador and the FM, so the chain from the meeting to the memo isn't very long!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:01 pm

David Cameron, campaigning in Abingdon, said: "What's Nicola Sturgeon told us today? Well she's told us - she's being anointed as this great genius - she's told us something that I said about four years ago, which is Ed Miliband is not up to the job of being prime minister. I think we knew that already."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32177315" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:03 pm

Am kinda hoping it does get linked to the Lib Dems.
Anything that finally showed up what a sanctimonious, two faced bunch of cheats they are would surely be another nail in their coffin.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:05 pm

Could the French have been the mischievous ones here?

A bit of fun to be had by setting Scotland against rUK?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:08 pm

Was it the Telegraph which first cited the Foreign Office as the source? Or didn't they name the source (Office-wise?)

I really can't remember now.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:13 pm

yahyah wrote:Am kinda hoping it does get linked to the Lib Dems.
Anything that finally showed up what a sanctimonious, two faced bunch of cheats they are would surely be another nail in their coffin.

Yeah, memo genuine and leaked by Lib Dems would be best result.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:17 pm

PorFavor wrote:Was it the Telegraph which first cited the Foreign Office as the source? Or didn't they name the source (Office-wise?)

I really can't remember now.

I don't recall any mention of the FCO in the Telegraph. It was Kenny Farquharson (deputy editor of the Scotsman) who pinned it on the Scotland Office.

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:19 pm

Anything else happening today or is everyone focused on confusing skullduggery?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:21 pm

Was just about to make a cup of tea when a bleeding blue and gold duck holding a pistol turned up.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:21 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Could the French have been the mischievous ones here?

A bit of fun to be had by setting Scotland against rUK?

One presumes the French would prefer a Labour government as that would guarantee no UK EU referendum for at least 5 years, so making trouble for the SNP to Labour's advantage would make sense, but it's the bit about Miliband not being "PM material" that I keep coming back to. It's such a Tory soundbite. And now Cameron's trying to make use of it. I remain baffled. None of it really makes sense.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:28 pm

diGriz wrote:Anything else happening today or is everyone focused on confusing skullduggery?

Malcolm Rifkind interview in the G. ‘I don’t need to be nostalgic. I’ve had a fantastic parliamentary life’

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:29 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Was just about to make a cup of tea when a bleeding blue and gold duck holding a pistol turned up.

Dressed in a chimpanzee costume?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:29 pm

new statesman wrote:But what those in Labour who are hoping to gain any traction on this seem to have forgotten, is that for all the repeated Blair-Brown eruptions were seized on by the Tories, they were mostly disbelieved by the party faithful and didn't stop New Labour winning three elections in a row, two in landslides. It seems likely that this leak will have just as small an effect on the SNP.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... all-tories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:30 pm

citizenJA wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Was just about to make a cup of tea when a bleeding blue and gold duck holding a pistol turned up.
Dressed in a chimpanzee costume?

That's the one. Little get.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:32 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Could the French have been the mischievous ones here?

A bit of fun to be had by setting Scotland against rUK?
One presumes the French would prefer a Labour government as that would guarantee no UK EU referendum for at least 5 years, so making trouble for the SNP to Labour's advantage would make sense, but it's the bit about Miliband not being "PM material" that I keep coming back to. It's such a Tory soundbite. And now Cameron's trying to make use of it. I remain baffled. None of it really makes sense.

Dave's Chaos.
Whatever he accuses others of, it's what he is.
I've never seen an example of this simple psychological phenomenon displayed so consistently & true.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:34 pm

I think this puts it to bed.

Jeremy Heywood said: “I can confirm that earlier today I instigated a Cabinet Office-led leak inquiry to establish how extracts from this document may have got into the public domain. Until that inquiry is complete, I will not be making any further comment either on the document or the inquiry.”

It is real, it says what the Telegraph claims.

Everything else is denial of various degrees of plausibility.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:34 pm

The Tories’ European problem will bring chaos

Nick Cohen

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ter-for-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Speak of the devil...

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:35 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
new statesman wrote:But what those in Labour who are hoping to gain any traction on this seem to have forgotten, is that for all the repeated Blair-Brown eruptions were seized on by the Tories, they were mostly disbelieved by the party faithful and didn't stop New Labour winning three elections in a row, two in landslides. It seems likely that this leak will have just as small an effect on the SNP.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... all-tories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree with that, for the SNP. The floating voters and undecideds are what is in play here.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:55 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
yahyah wrote:Am kinda hoping it does get linked to the Lib Dems.
Anything that finally showed up what a sanctimonious, two faced bunch of cheats they are would surely be another nail in their coffin.
Yeah, memo genuine and leaked by Lib Dems would be best result.

It also seems the most likely option. As everyone has already said, its not really in the Tories interest to try and destabilise the SNP, and its not all win for Labour as it just adds to the narrative that Miliband is not a credible PM. Plus, how would Labour have got hold of it anyway, when they're the opposition and don't have access to FCO docs any more?

But the Libs, they've got the motive, they've got the opportunity and above all they are so desperate that they'll try all kinds of risky shenanigans if they think it might stave off the coming disaster. I don't think it's going to need Columbo to solve this one.

As to whether the document really represents what was actually said, I'm sure we'll never know. But unfortunately mud sticks, whether its true or not.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:58 pm

Goodnight, everyone.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 6:58 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
new statesman wrote:But what those in Labour who are hoping to gain any traction on this seem to have forgotten, is that for all the repeated Blair-Brown eruptions were seized on by the Tories, they were mostly disbelieved by the party faithful and didn't stop New Labour winning three elections in a row, two in landslides. It seems likely that this leak will have just as small an effect on the SNP.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... all-tories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I agree with that, for the SNP. The floating voters and undecideds are what is in play here.

Absolutely. If 30% of former Labour voters are considering going SNP this time, it only takes a small number to change their minds to have a dramatic change in the Scottish results.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:05 pm

goodnight, PF

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:13 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
I agree with that, for the SNP. The floating voters and undecideds are what is in play here.
Absolutely. If 30% of former Labour voters are considering going SNP this time, it only takes a small number to change their minds to have a dramatic change in the Scottish results.

An update on the end of that article.

Update: It's been suggested to me from several quarters that the leaker may be Alistair Carmichael or someone in his office. As Secretary of State for Scotland the memorandum would definitely have crossed his desk, and it might help the 10 other Liberal Democrats trying to retain their seats in mainland Scotland.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:19 pm

Tish wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
yahyah wrote:Am kinda hoping it does get linked to the Lib Dems.
Anything that finally showed up what a sanctimonious, two faced bunch of cheats they are would surely be another nail in their coffin.
Yeah, memo genuine and leaked by Lib Dems would be best result.
It also seems the most likely option. As everyone has already said, its not really in the Tories interest to try and destabilise the SNP, and its not all win for Labour as it just adds to the narrative that Miliband is not a credible PM. Plus, how would Labour have got hold of it anyway, when they're the opposition and don't have access to FCO docs any more?

But the Libs, they've got the motive, they've got the opportunity and above all they are so desperate that they'll try all kinds of risky shenanigans if they think it might stave off the coming disaster. I don't think it's going to need Columbo to solve this one.

As to whether the document really represents what was actually said, I'm sure we'll never know. But unfortunately mud sticks, whether its true or not.

Tories must be laughing at Labour and SNP being at each others throats though.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:20 pm

James Cook @BBCJamesCook · 1h 1 hour ago
What an extraordinary level of vicious abuse I have received today for simply reporting the news. Is this the country we want folks? Is it?

James Cook @BBCJamesCook · 1h 1 hour ago
OF COURSE there are some SNP strategists - I know, I've spoken to them - who say in private a Tory victory would hasten independence.

James Cook @BBCJamesCook · 1h 1 hour ago
OF COURSE I won't identify the SNP folk who said to me in private conversations that they could see the attraction/would prefer Tory govt.

James Cook @BBCJamesCook · 60m 60 minutes ago
OF COURSE I should ask tough questions of politicians. This is a democracy. This is my role in it. We're the poorer without challenge.

James Cook @BBCJamesCook · 53m 53 minutes ago
And finally if, despite my 23 years of reporting things straight, you think I simply make up conversations then do feel free to unfollow me.

He's having quite a day ...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:21 pm

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.

Night PF

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:21 pm

diGriz wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: I agree with that, for the SNP. The floating voters and undecideds are what is in play here.
Absolutely. If 30% of former Labour voters are considering going SNP this time, it only takes a small number to change their minds to have a dramatic change in the Scottish results.
An update on the end of that article.

Update: It's been suggested to me from several quarters that the leaker may be Alistair Carmichael or someone in his office. As Secretary of State for Scotland the memorandum would definitely have crossed his desk, and it might help the 10 other Liberal Democrats trying to retain their seats in mainland Scotland.

It's certainly kicked the 45ers nest. I'm still waiting to hear the steps involved that means it's a Labour Conspiracy to get at poor Nicola.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:24 pm

Ed Miliband speech in Warrington
http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1154821 ... warrington" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After reading the last part, I really must get my black dog head put away in the cupboard and get out door knocking!

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:26 pm

@TubbyIsaacs

I emailed Warwick about the lack of a certain Theodore Agnew from the DfE website and his reaction was "Wow, very interesting" so I guess he'll follow it up. Agnew's definitely gone since his biog on the gov.uk site says this:

Previous roles in government
Non-executive board member
2010 to 2015

Lets's see what WM comes up with.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:28 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:@TubbyIsaacs

I emailed Warwick about the lack of a certain Theodore Agnew from the DfE website and his reaction was "Wow, very interesting" so I guess he'll follow it up. Agnew's definitely gone since his biog on the gov.uk site says this:

Previous roles in government
Non-executive board member
2010 to 2015

Lets's see what WM comes up with.

Excellent work. I'd have thought he'd stay, no reason not to.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:40 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote: Excellent work. I'd have thought he'd stay, no reason not to.

I wondered whether the Labour guys who've had access to the civil servants told them that he wouldn't be wanted - too close to the Tory Party. If they get back in then he can always resume - this way he's gone without making a fuss and he wouldn't have wanted to be sacked.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the NSN as Hunt has gone on record as saying their funding will be cut.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:42 pm

Sturgeon’s message to Miliband: will you help us remove the Tories from power?

http://gu.com/p/479xa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

' I’d like to address the matter of the leaked UK government memo about my meeting with the French ambassador. This story has already been shown to be 100% untrue – having been comprehensively rejected by both the French ambassador and consul general. '

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:49 pm

The George Galloway v Bradford Brewery twitter spat is ridiculous ... what on earth did he take offence at in their original tweet - someone?

Tim Montgomerie ن retweeted
Bradford Brewery @BradfordBrewery · 6h 6 hours ago
So @georgegalloway has reported us to @WestYorksPolice

Anyway - he seems to have got both Labour and Conservatives joining forces now to bring him down a peg or several.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:51 pm

Gordon Brown: Austere future under SNP

http://www.scotsman.com/news/gordon-bro ... -1-3738178

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:56 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:The George Galloway v Bradford Brewery twitter spat is ridiculous ... what on earth did he take offence at in their original tweet - someone?

Tim Montgomerie ن retweeted
Bradford Brewery @BradfordBrewery · 6h 6 hours ago
So @georgegalloway has reported us to @WestYorksPolice
Anyway - he seems to have got both Labour and Conservatives joining forces now to bring him down a peg or several.

Read a Tweet earlier saying re-Tweet if you've been blocked by Galloway. The re-Tweets were at 236.
I expect some were re-tweeting even if they hadn't...But even so he does seem to spend a lot of his time having spats...

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 7:58 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Sturgeon’s message to Miliband: will you help us remove the Tories from power?

http://gu.com/p/479xa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

' I’d like to address the matter of the leaked UK government memo about my meeting with the French ambassador. This story has already been shown to be 100% untrue – having been comprehensively rejected by both the French ambassador and consul general. '

Readers with long memories will remember Tony Blair denying he wanted rid of his Chancellor, Gordon Brown, or Gordon Brown denying he wanted rid of his Chancellor, Alistair Darling. We now know that these denials were false.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... all-tories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 8:04 pm

Hunt promises to give 'respect' to teachers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-32181849" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 04 Apr, 2015 8:11 pm

And that is what SNP MPs will bring to Westminster. The Fixed Term Parliaments Act makes minority government possible at Westminster in a way that wasn’t previously practical. A government cannot lose office simply by losing a vote, and instead there must be a specific vote of no confidence. We want to work with a progressive government, not destroy one, and if we have a role to play in a future Westminster parliament that is what we will do.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... age-tories

From the Sturgeon letter in the G. There is something about it that makes my blood run cold.