Friday 24th June 2016

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:26 pm

THE OUT CAMPAIGN – AND THE ATTITUDE TO TAX OF ITS FUNDERS

https://waitingfortax.com/2016/06/22/th ... s-funders/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:26 pm

And I see the 38 degrees petition is shooting up. I bet the moderates are miserable at that. Their coup isnt going to work either.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:27 pm

So some Brexit voters have discovered reality, and regret their vote. Strewth.

A referendum with two choices is not a good thing for democracy.
All the grey areas, and people with different visions, Lexit, Brexit etc all got lumped together under Leave.
As did the I'm happy with the EU as it is, I want closer ties, I want further changes, full union people under Remain.
All those people with different ideas, values, and political ideals got shovelled into two positions. In or Out. No wonder it is chaos.

If we will have learnt one thing from this unholy mess, surely it will be that binary choice votes are not good for democracy.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:27 pm

thatchersorphan wrote:https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ ... ter-brexit A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE IN JEREMY CORBYN AFTER BREXIT

For many working-class people, this was not a referendum on the EU. After all, very few of us know very much about it, apart from what the likes of the Daily Mail’s bananagate told us. The referendum, for most working-class people, has been a referendum on their lives today
Lisa McKenzie writes in https://www.timeshighereducation.com/bl ... ted-change" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She has been banging the Lexit drum for weeks FFS - completely delusional.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:31 pm

UK holidaymakers in Greece are refused cash exchange or withdrawal after Brexit

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... sh-8274302" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:31 pm

Tim Farron is a rude piece of work

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:33 pm

yahyah wrote:So some Brexit voters have discovered reality, and regret their vote. Strewth.

A referendum with two choices is not a good thing for democracy.
All the grey areas, and people with different visions, Lexit, Brexit etc all got lumped together under Leave.
As did the I'm happy with the EU as it is, I want closer ties, I want further changes, full union people under Remain.
All those people with different ideas, values, and political ideals got shovelled into two positions. In or Out. No wonder it is chaos.

If we will have learnt one thing from this unholy mess, surely it will be that binary choice votes are not good for democracy.

That's one of the best things I've read in thirty-six hours, yahyah

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:34 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Join the single market on same terms as Norway. It's the only way. If they'll have us, of course. A change of government would help. I suspect much of Europe is pretty fed up of the current one by now.
It would have to be open borders if we did, so that wouldn't go down well And I don't think Norway thinks much of the deal.

We need immigration and the single market for the sake of the economy. And no, Norway doesn't think much of the deal but it's what their voters keep voting for. If you put representative democracy aside and ask voters what they want directly, don't be surprised if they make poor decisions. We have to honour the referendum and leave the EU, but we don't have to shoot ourselves in the foot. No one can say "that's not what people want for post EU" because no one's actually asked people what they want post EU. We should have a general election, really, but I somehow doubt that will happen.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:34 pm

Re one of Ephie's earlier points. ‏

@MattGreeny

Immigration vote won then - Nothing to stop the French ditching Le Touquet agreement now. Short sighted twats in this country #EURefResults

R E C R E T I V O Retweeted Matt Green

The French Mayor of Calais wants it renegotiated asap.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:36 pm

EU money helped pay for the £5.2million sea and river defences in my local town of Aberaeron.
We, the local people and tourists are thankful, even if Brexit voters aren't.

The bottom pic shows re-inforcement of a wall after heavy rains a few years ago swept the old wall, and half of a building away.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:37 pm

citizenJA wrote:Tim Farron is a rude piece of work

He's just had to pay damages for slander. Can't remember the name of the guy that sued him. It happened on the day Jo Cox was killed so didn't make the headlines.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:38 pm

michael taylor ‏@michael33495998 15m15 minutes ago

@gabyhinsliff @smartysue as petrol set to rise by 2-3p next week because of fall in pound. This is just the start

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:40 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:aren't these the sorts of questions we should have been discussing before the vote?

We did ask
devil of a time finding the answers
tracking down experts
derided for listening to them

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:42 pm

Katy Lee ‏@kjalee 12m12 minutes ago

FFS. Parents just had to put up prices at their bike shop 10% because of the collapse in the pound. Remind me how this helps the little ppl?

But, but, but, small shopkeepers were saying being in the EU hindered expansion and taking on more staff..

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:42 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Tim Farron is a rude piece of work
He's just had to pay damages for slander. Can't remember the name of the guy that sued him. It happened on the day Jo Cox was killed so didn't make the headlines.

Imam Suliman Gani

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:44 pm

Tim Farron, the Lib Dem leader, used a speech earlier today to launch a strong attack on Jeremy Corbyn’s conduct during the election campaign.

"With politicians of all parties working together, one of the things that stood out in this campaign, was Jeremy Corbyn’s bizarre refusal to share a platform in the face of the greatest challenge our country was faced in a generation.

I have stood alongside Gordon Brown, Harriet Harman, Chukka Umunna, Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan.

Great progressive Labour politicians that I admire – forced to campaign with their hands tied behind their back because of short-sighted demands from their leader’s office.

Where was the leader of that party?

Even when the future of our country depended on him, he could not bring himself to reach across the aisle.

When the call went out for help, Jeremy Corbyn refused to answer.

The once-proud working class Labour vote has abandoned Corbyn in droves.

Great Labour cities have been driven into the arms of Ukip and Nigel Farage.

It is clearer than ever that Jermyn Corbyn has more concern for his own position in his own party, rather than his country."

Farron also urged people who wanted “a new modern breed of politics – liberal, hopeful, international, rational – driven by real British values” to join the Lib Dems.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/liv ... 3038109b19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lying jerk

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:44 pm

The 38 degrees petition to support Corbyn, has already collected 56,000 signatures.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:45 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Katy Lee ‏@kjalee 12m12 minutes ago

FFS. Parents just had to put up prices at their bike shop 10% because of the collapse in the pound. Remind me how this helps the little ppl?
But, but, but, small shopkeepers were saying being in the EU hindered expansion and taking on more staff..

Red tape! Red Tape! health and safety gone mad!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:47 pm

ohsocynical wrote:michael taylor ‏@michael33495998 15m15 minutes ago

@gabyhinsliff @smartysue as petrol set to rise by 2-3p next week because of fall in pound. This is just the start

That's really going to help the economy in rural areas. It's twenty miles round trip for us just to get into to the doctor or shops. We already pay more here for fuel.

Has anyone started a #thanksabunchbrexit with these things on ?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:47 pm

citizenJA wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Tim Farron is a rude piece of work
He's just had to pay damages for slander. Can't remember the name of the guy that sued him. It happened on the day Jo Cox was killed so didn't make the headlines.
Imam Suliman Gani

Michael Fallon.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:48 pm

citizenJA wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:aren't these the sorts of questions we should have been discussing before the vote?
We did ask
devil of a time finding the answers
tracking down experts
derided for listening to them

All we got if questions were asked was 17 million people squealing 'Project Fear' back.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:50 pm

Makes you proud to be British

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... &tid=ss_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:52 pm

citizenJA wrote:Tim Farron is a rude piece of work

But in this case entirely right (well apart from the Lib Dem bit at the end).

You only get to lose one election as Labour leader, Corbyn has lost his.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:53 pm

Started the day shell shocked, worked through anger, now reduced to laughter at Brexit repercussions.
Better to laugh than cry.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:55 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/bus ... n-11520016?
aren't these the sorts of questions we should have been discussing before the vote?
[Wales had secured around £1.8bn European Structural Funds investment for up to 2020 from the European Union....Previously structural funds have been used for major infrastructure projects like the Parc Eirias redevelopment, Superfast Cymru, Anglesey Circuit, and Venue Cymru.]

I'd have thought both sides ("In" and "Out") should have drawn up plans for a way forward in the event of an "Out" vote. I certainly can't understand why Boris Johnson et al haven't been quizzed on this. And our now "caretaker" Prime Minister. It's all been a bit casual (as we knew).

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:55 pm

A lot of people have been saying they didn't expect Leave to win, it was just a protest vote.

As someone here said after the 2015 election, if people want to send politicians a message, why don't they just send a postcard ? There'd be a lot less nasty consequences.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:56 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Tim Farron is a rude piece of work
But in this case entirely right (well apart from the Lib Dem bit at the end).

You only get to lose one election as Labour leader, Corbyn has lost his.

This has nothing to do with Corbyn...this is due to an insidious xenophobes in the British population, a divided Tory Party, austerity, and and incompetent PM

The cause of the disenchantment of a large number of people is the lack of opportunities and being left behind by globalisation. Corbyn has been highlighting this for years, and warning of the pent up frustration. Yes, his campaign could have gone better but the Labour Party leader you want would probably have done much worse

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:57 pm

I take it someone has covered Marine le Pen changing her Twitter avatar to a Union Jack?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:58 pm

"...Jeremy Corbyn has more concern for his own position in his own party, rather than his country."

- Tim Farron

That's the last thing Corbyn is about, Farron, you miserable little man

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:59 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Tim Farron is a rude piece of work
But in this case entirely right (well apart from the Lib Dem bit at the end).

You only get to lose one election as Labour leader, Corbyn has lost his.

Farron and Sturgeon to resign imminently too?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 4:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:The 38 degrees petition to support Corbyn, has already collected 56,000 signatures.

It's 67,272 now.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:00 pm

Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Join the single market on same terms as Norway. It's the only way. If they'll have us, of course. A change of government would help. I suspect much of Europe is pretty fed up of the current one by now.
It would have to be open borders if we did, so that wouldn't go down well And I don't think Norway thinks much of the deal.
We need immigration and the single market for the sake of the economy. And no, Norway doesn't think much of the deal but it's what their voters keep voting for. If you put representative democracy aside and ask voters what they want directly, don't be surprised if they make poor decisions. We have to honour the referendum and leave the EU, but we don't have to shoot ourselves in the foot. No one can say "that's not what people want for post EU" because no one's actually asked people what they want post EU. We should have a general election, really, but I somehow doubt that will happen.

I believe that Leave have ruled this option out, although polling (which isn't much use) suggests 70% of the population want it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:01 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Tim Farron is a rude piece of work
But in this case entirely right (well apart from the Lib Dem bit at the end).

You only get to lose one election as Labour leader, Corbyn has lost his.

Don't be silly

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:01 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Tim Farron is a rude piece of work
But in this case entirely right (well apart from the Lib Dem bit at the end).

You only get to lose one election as Labour leader, Corbyn has lost his.

Neil Kinnock ?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:03 pm

Paddy Ashdown ‏@paddyashdown 3h3 hours ago

These bl**dy fools have persuaded the British people to vote for an action which will now lead to the dissolution of their own country!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:04 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: It would have to be open borders if we did, so that wouldn't go down well And I don't think Norway thinks much of the deal.
We need immigration and the single market for the sake of the economy. And no, Norway doesn't think much of the deal but it's what their voters keep voting for. If you put representative democracy aside and ask voters what they want directly, don't be surprised if they make poor decisions. We have to honour the referendum and leave the EU, but we don't have to shoot ourselves in the foot. No one can say "that's not what people want for post EU" because no one's actually asked people what they want post EU. We should have a general election, really, but I somehow doubt that will happen.
I believe that Leave have ruled this option out, although polling (which isn't much use) suggests 70% of the population want it.

I doubt the EU gives much of a toss at the moment at what the British want....and quite rightly too

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:05 pm

citizenJA wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Tim Farron is a rude piece of work
But in this case entirely right (well apart from the Lib Dem bit at the end).

You only get to lose one election as Labour leader, Corbyn has lost his.
Don't be silly

Quite. This wasn't an election although a lot of us treated it as if it was.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:07 pm

citizenJA wrote:
"...Jeremy Corbyn has more concern for his own position in his own party, rather than his country."

- Tim Farron
That's the last thing Corbyn is about, Farron, you miserable little man

Someone hiss Nick Clegg at him, please.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:09 pm

yahyah wrote:Makes you proud to be British

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... &tid=ss_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's humiliating isn't it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:10 pm

HindleA wrote:With respect,of course it depends at what level and relative but a 1.3 million margin isn't scraping over the line,many places barely reached a third of the voters for Remain.I don't view it as close.

Nearly 13 million members of registered UK voters not having voted along with over a million votes between the two positions renders the result spurious.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:10 pm

yahyah wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
"...Jeremy Corbyn has more concern for his own position in his own party, rather than his country."

- Tim Farron
That's the last thing Corbyn is about, Farron, you miserable little man

Someone hiss Nick Clegg at him, please.

Better still throw Clegg at him. And Shirely and Vince while they're at it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:13 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:Makes you proud to be British

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... &tid=ss_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's humiliating isn't it.

The British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:14 pm

The media seem to be finding a lot of people who regret voting Leave, and belatedly understand the seriousness of their decision.
The young woman in one film says her whole family now realise the consequences, and reality has kicked in.

Maybe, if enough people feel that, and the Brexit lies become more apparent and prices go up, very quickly there will be political pressure for a re-run or to declare it void ?

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:16 pm

Hi all,

So, sorry to hear about Lady C. I will miss her wonderfully warm and insightful posts. RIP good lady.

I have been avoiding politics (even FTN and the news - well right wing news anyway, which lets face it is most of the news outlets in this benighted country) since May last year. Ever since Ed and Labour lost the election in fact. I was pretty much devastated at the result (and like PF i don't think I've still recovered from it). I knew nothing good could come from such a right wing Tory government, and sure enough look where we are today.

What a sad day for our country.

I'm going back to read the thread now.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:17 pm

Maeght wrote:Dear UK centrists who voted for pragmatic, economy-friendly Cameron over crazy, dangerous Marxist Miliband last year...good call. Good call.

Yes, this, a thousand times this.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:19 pm

https://twitter.com/hashtag/regrexit?re ... %5Ehashtag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
#regrexit

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:19 pm

yahyah wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:aren't these the sorts of questions we should have been discussing before the vote?
We did ask
devil of a time finding the answers
tracking down experts
derided for listening to them
All we got if questions were asked was 17 million people squealing 'Project Fear' back.

Yep.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:19 pm

Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

Thanks for all the comments last night, I've just about caught up. Bristol solid for "remain" as expected so, with a Bristol postcode, at least I don't have to feel like a fish out of water. No doubt Somerset was big for "leave", I haven't had time to check yet. Hating having Rees-Mogg as my MP more than ever right now.

I have lots to digest and may have some more thoughts later on, but my first concern is Northern Ireland. It seems to me the only way to avert complete disaster would be to join the single market like Norway and continue with the free movement of people. I know that's not what a lot of people thought they were voting for, but technically the referendum was exclusively on membership of the EU, not on the single market, not on immigration. Politically and economically it's the most sensible option. Recent history suggests it won't happen, but I can hope. The idea of having a hard border between Northern and the Republic of Ireland is just unthinkable.

I feel totally like a fish out of water.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:22 pm

daydreamer wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Morning all.

Thanks for all the comments last night, I've just about caught up. Bristol solid for "remain" as expected so, with a Bristol postcode, at least I don't have to feel like a fish out of water. No doubt Somerset was big for "leave", I haven't had time to check yet. Hating having Rees-Mogg as my MP more than ever right now.

I have lots to digest and may have some more thoughts later on, but my first concern is Northern Ireland. It seems to me the only way to avert complete disaster would be to join the single market like Norway and continue with the free movement of people. I know that's not what a lot of people thought they were voting for, but technically the referendum was exclusively on membership of the EU, not on the single market, not on immigration. Politically and economically it's the most sensible option. Recent history suggests it won't happen, but I can hope. The idea of having a hard border between Northern and the Republic of Ireland is just unthinkable.
I feel totally like a fish out of water.

Pop back into the pond here Daydreamer. The water's warm and you are very welcome

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 24 Jun, 2016 5:22 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:https://twitter.com/hashtag/regrexit?re ... %5Ehashtag
#regrexit

I love it!
experiencing voters' remorse?
bring your pen within two weeks of the electoral event to the original polling station to have your vote fully refunded
act now
do over