Wednesday 12th October 2016

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:02 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:However much SH protests, events in the last 24 hours have somewhat contradicted his assertions here yesterday morning.

How, specifically?

Is Labour now in favour of staying in the single market?

Is there any way of avoiding Hard Brexit without staying in the single market?

AnatolyKasparov wrote: Another thing that has happened - a senior Labour figure tore into the "economic devastation" that a single market exit might cause.

Who was this? None other than a certain J McDonnell - who, we have repeatedly been told, wants only "North Korean" style "access" to said entity.

I was accused yesterday of endorsing "my party right or wrong". No, I just don't assume that the present Labour leadership is automatically wrong. Not the same thing

Where has John McDonnell said this?

I'd be absolutely delighted if he has now said that it is Labour policy to stay in the single market, and not just 'agree terms of access'.

I cant have followed the news closely enough, where is this quote?

Great news if true.

Just checked his twitter feed, just lots of bilge about 'access'

https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any link to this call to stay *in* the single market?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:02 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:07 pm

danesclose wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
yahyah wrote:Letter from Thornberry and Starmer to David Davis demanding answers to 170 questions about Brexit.

http://labourlist.org/2016/10/thornberr ... vid-davis/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder what Labours answers to any of them might be.
Irrelevant "whataboutery" as usual.
Labour aren't in government.
Labour didn't get us into this mess.
Cameron did & May is exascerbating it.
Stop making everything about Labour

Bye All

Yes, that's my response too.
No need to worry about Labour on this.
Please come back when you can.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:07 pm

Joined at the hip...

(((Dan Hodges))) Verified account
‏@DPJHodges

How many of Labour's 170 questions can Labour answer.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:09 pm

Newsflash: Yesterday’s brutal selloff drove the pound down to its lowest ever level against a basket of other currencies.

New data from the Bank of England shows that trade-weighted sterling crashed through its previous seven-year low during last night’s trading, to depths not seen before.

This index values the pound against a group of other currencies including the US dollar, yen, and euro.

And it hit 73.383, on the Bank’s index, tipping through the 73.495 plumbed in December 2008 as Britain crashed into recession and several banks were bailed out.

One and a half years in and the first Tory majority in 18 years is going swimmingly. They really are good at crashing out of things, aren't they?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:13 pm

So anyway yes, I occasionally despair of Labour, but if I wanted to just slag Labour off, I'd probably go somewhere else than here to seek my common ground. I think the 170 questions is a good start. And while moaning on for ever is indeed seductive, it doesn't actually move us on.

Which of the questions are the knottiest?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:16 pm

Based on Sparrow's reporting, Corbyn giving a good PMQs here so far.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:17 pm

Willow904 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Cameron's not going far.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 56811.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It was pretty easy to predict that post politics Cameron's next career move would be wealthy posh person. Heading up his own charity seems about his level, tbh and hopefully the sum of his ambitions. God knows he's done enough damage already so it's quite a relief he has no desire to meddle with anything else that's actually important.

Devoting his life to good works, experiencing genuine remorse and making restitution for his mistakes would be good.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:17 pm

Again, see PMQs.

Corbyn, at last, asked about Brexit.

But every question on the single market?

"access"

Which is meaningless.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:17 pm

But the Treasury says not being in the single market could cost £66bn. Is access to the single market a priority?

Clear indication that Labour favours a hard Brexit there. They want to remove £66bn from the economy each year, I'm sure you will all agree. It's obvious.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:18 pm

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... hed-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plastic bag 'saving' cannot conceal slow progress on cutting regulation costs

The Public Accounts Committee report says that Government must rethink its approach having made limited progress on cutting the cost to business of regulation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rpc- ... pac-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Press release
RPC response to PAC report

(Regulatory Policy Committee)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:18 pm

you have a gift there Jonny.
or is it a curse.
or both.
like Monk?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:20 pm

Getting hung up over one ambiguous word, rather than the unmistakable general thrust of what Labour is saying. Yes, I believe that SH is indeed a lawyer

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:25 pm

Willow904 wrote:From the G's business blog:

The Financial Times reports today that some senior Tories have admitted privately that the weak pound could create serious political headaches.

Mrs May said last week that the fundamentals in the British economy were strong and that the economy had grown more strongly than many had expected after the June 23 Brexit vote. “We see sterling moving in different ways at different times,” she said.

But some Tory MPs warn that “imported” inflation will erode living standards and undermine Mrs May’s attempts to help the “ordinary working-class” Britons who saw the Brexit vote as a cry for help.

The rising cost of fuel, food and foreign holidays are already being felt by families described by Mrs May as those who are “just getting by”. Labour has called for pro-Brexit ministers to apologise.

Yeah, this is what I worry about. Many (most) of the people I know can't afford what Tory government are playing at. What do Tory
government care? The people they know and represent can all ride out the disasters unfolding. An additional number of people
are looking at a smash through no fault of their own.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:26 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Getting hung up over one ambiguous word, rather than the unmistakable general thrust of what Labour is saying. Yes, I believe that SH is indeed a lawyer

I am still awaiting that quote from McDonnell AK.

I am sure you didn't dream it, that would be ridiculous.

So what was it you were thinking of?

Where is this quote saying we should stay in the single market?

And it isn't just 'a word'. there is a chasm of difference between being a member of the single market and having access.

See, of all people, Hannan who favours the latter

http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolu ... thing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:26 pm

Incidentally, here's the full Daily Mail Comment trailed by the "unpatriotic Bremoaner" front page.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... eople.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:27 pm

If you can bear to look at it, J McD's own Twitter account should provide you with all the information you need.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:31 pm

Shambolic Tory Brexit. Doesn't have the ideal ring but it's still one to be repeated.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:33 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:If you can bear to look at it, J McD's own Twitter account should provide you with all the information you need.

i linked to it above.

if that is your source, your claim is just obviously false (i was teasing, I knew it was).

There is no statement whatsoever from Labour saying we should remain members of the single market. Certainly not from McDonnell.

If we don't that equals Hard Brexit. "Access" not being remotely the same thing.

Whatever over-optimistic ultra loyalists may think.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:34 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:A Labour figure who has been positively good on Brexit, because unlike Starmer able to argue for remaining in the single market, I'd highlight Sadiq Khan.

Starmer is hamstrung. Because it is Labour policy not to remain in the single market, all he can do is ask questions, without himself any answers to them. His brief is a hard one because of the shadow cabinet he finds himself in. Not his fault.
It's an opposition's job to oppose, to critique, to question.

We're 4 years away from an election so the question of !"Well, what would you do?" doesn't arise. Labour are in no position to be able to implement anything right now.

It's up to the government to come up with what they are going to do and then put it to Parliament (if Labour get their way).
Indeed.

I thought Thornberry neutralised the 'well what would you do?' guff from Jenkin by saying that the Tories are in power, it's for them to do. If however they wanted to see what Labour would do then maybe the Tories should step aside.

(my emphasis)

Exactly. That's reality. What are Tory government doing? If Tory government are unable to provide responsible leadership, communicates nothing means nothing, they need to get out.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:35 pm

Some good polling for Sadiq Khan, 58% think he's doing a good job, up from 45%.

Mike Smithson [no Corbyn fan] has given PMQ's to Corbyn, at 7 out of ten to May's 6 out of ten.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:35 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:you have a gift there Jonny.
or is it a curse.
or both.
like Monk?

It really isn't difficult to guess what Hugo will be moaning about despite having blocked him weeks ago and only seeing Plato's shadows dancing on the cave wall.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:40 pm

yahyah wrote:Some good polling for Sadiq Khan, 58% think he's doing a good job, up from 45%.

Mike Smithson [no Corbyn fan] has given PMQ's to Corbyn, at 7 out of ten to May's 6 out of ten.

Corbyn, 7 out of 10?

If I was mischievous...

May doesn't have the patter of Cameron and has a tougher hand to play. PMQs is going to continue to be a slog for her. Imho of course.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:40 pm

Labour’s Ben Bradshaw asks if May will join France in saying those responsible for war crimes in Syria to be investigated by the international criminal court.

May says it is for the ICC to decide what it investigates. On the no-fly zone, she says the scenes in Syria are appalling. But there are many questions about how a no-fly zone could operate. What everyone knows is that the only solution is a political transition. It is time Russia accepted that.

Sounds suspiciously like what someone else said many months ago. Can't put my finger on it. Who was it again?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:41 pm

I really can't be arsed with this any more, SH.

What matters in fluid unpredictable situations such as this one is the general direction of argument, not obsessing over precise words.

Labour are presently almost united in arguing that leaving the single market would be disastrous.

Hardly anyone in the party - even many of the "leave" minority - actually *wants* a hard Brexit.

Unlike the Tories.

Message ends

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:42 pm

yahyah wrote:Some good polling for Sadiq Khan, 58% think he's doing a good job, up from 45%.

Mike Smithson [no Corbyn fan] has given PMQ's to Corbyn, at 7 out of ten to May's 6 out of ten.

Only 7 out of 10? At this point in the electoral cycle, he should be scoring 11 out of 10, while beating his chest and bellowing like an enraged gorilla. Or something.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:43 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:A Labour figure who has been positively good on Brexit, because unlike Starmer able to argue for remaining in the single market, I'd highlight Sadiq Khan.

Starmer is hamstrung. Because it is Labour policy not to remain in the single market, all he can do is ask questions, without himself any answers to them. His brief is a hard one because of the shadow cabinet he finds himself in. Not his fault.
It's an opposition's job to oppose, to critique, to question.

We're 4 years away from an election so the question of !"Well, what would you do?" doesn't arise. Labour are in no position to be able to implement anything right now.

It's up to the government to come up with what they are going to do and then put it to Parliament (if Labour get their way).
The ability to oppose/critique is much stronger if you actually have an alternative to suggest.

But the big picture is that the one and only way of avoiding Hard Brexit is to stay in the single market. A Commons majority for that could be assembled if Labour backed it.

It isn't.

Why?

Corbyn.

We'll cross that bridge when we get there. That's as good as it's going to get so make yourself more comfortable accepting what can't be changed and work cultivating success given what we've got now.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:44 pm

Fiona Bruce, a Conservative, asks May for an assurance that parents will get the right school place for their child.

Anyone care to identify the thing that is fundamentally wrong about this question?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:45 pm

I wrote the response above without rancour or impatience. I hope no offence is taken. I intended none. Apologies if it's patronising. I didn't mean that either.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:45 pm

Adam Boulton Verified account
‏@adamboultonSKY

COMMENT TM discovered its easier to address Tory Conference than debate #brexit in parliament. Corbyn team really have upped their game.

Well that doesn't fit the "useless Corbyn" narrative now does it?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:47 pm

Still early days and as many say it doesn't really matter that much anyway, but it seems that May isn't exactly "smashing" this PMQs lark.

Another parallel, maybe, with a certain previous PM who got strikingly good poll ratings in their initial months?

Before, of course, it all went distinctly pear shaped later......

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:47 pm

My point was not to agree with Smithson about how many out of ten Corbyn deserved, as I didn't see it and so cannot judge. But it isn't often he gives Corbyn a win, so it felt cheering, along with the Sadiq polling.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:47 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I really can't be arsed with this any more, SH.

What matters in fluid unpredictable situations such as this one is the general direction of argument, not obsessing over precise words.

Labour are presently almost united in arguing that leaving the single market would be disastrous.

Hardly anyone in the party - even many of the "leave" minority - actually *wants* a hard Brexit.

Unlike the Tories.

Message ends

I am sure you do want to close this conversation down, given your initial claim. I don't blame you at all.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:48 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
Fiona Bruce, a Conservative, asks May for an assurance that parents will get the right school place for their child.
Anyone care to identify the thing that is fundamentally wrong about this question?

Because there isn't the money for unlimited spaces at every school, some parents will inevitably be disappointed that they can't get their child into the school of their choosing.

We have a 'preference' system not 'choice'. You can't please all of the people all of the time...maybe if they concentrated in making every school a great school rather than this absurd grammar policy we'd get somewhere.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:52 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Adam Boulton Verified account
‏@adamboultonSKY

COMMENT TM discovered its easier to address Tory Conference than debate #brexit in parliament. Corbyn team really have upped their game.
Well that doesn't fit the "useless Corbyn" narrative now does it?

Good to hear the game is being upped, and it isn't just the people who would say it even if it wasn't true who have noticed. Makes one feel more

about the way things will go from now on.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:54 pm

Sorry Roger but that's the wrong answer. The question should have been "can she give assurance that every school will be good for every child". The implication of her question is that the government is going to leave a situation where there are shit schools so that parents will always have to choose. There shouldn't be any need for choice at all. There should only be a need to send your child to the school nearest you, without ever having to worry about making a choice.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:56 pm

Mr S - you can see (if you look) that I have been, let's say, "somewhat" misrepresented.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 12:58 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Joined at the hip...

(((Dan Hodges))) Verified account
‏@DPJHodges

How many of Labour's 170 questions can Labour answer.

Labour could legitimately answer, we wouldn't start from here.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:02 pm

gilsey wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Joined at the hip...

(((Dan Hodges))) Verified account
‏@DPJHodges

How many of Labour's 170 questions can Labour answer.
Labour could legitimately answer, we wouldn't start from here.

The Irishman's answer when asked for directions?

Very handy.

I think people are looking at this the wrong way. The party politics of this matter hardly at all. Staying in the single market matters enormously.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:04 pm

Even one of the Telegraph political correspondent's praised Corbyn.
Maybe he listened to fair criticism delivered during the leadership campaign and tried to do something about it.

https://twitter.com/ThatMichaelW?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:09 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... perts-war/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government's 'draconian' pension reforms have backfired, experts warn, as OBR says changes will cost billions

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:09 pm

An alternative theory. Now he's won the second leadership, and stamped his authority on the shadow team, he and his advisers no longer have to worry about firefighting against the bitterites on his own side - they've rendered themselves irrelevant to the Labour movement with their thumping loss in the leadership election - so Corbyn et al can concentrate on the job they're meant to be doing full time.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:10 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Uber drivers await tribunal verdict on employment status
Judgment over whether taxi app is acting unlawfully by not offering holiday and sick pay could be delivered on Wednesday

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:14 pm

Travellers hit by 'abominable' exchange rates at UK airports - the guardian
https://apple.news/A7rjWmcngRJaiaI04of8TNg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Bank noted in September that some retailers were “re-engineering products to maintain existing prices”, meaning smaller packets and less expensive ingredients were being introduced in an attempt to avoid passing the increased costs on to the consumer.

I'm so looking forward to my next pair of shoes being a size smaller than the ones I wear today.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:22 pm

Some of finest posts I've read are in response to habitually awful commentators seemingly posting by design. These characters provide the set up allowing for real people, serious commentators inevitably and effectively rebuking spammers on a threading
format, not twitter. It happens all the time, the effective rebukes. The information found in posts demolishing pranksters,
disingenuous liars and/or trolls prevail because the content stands up while the liars' words go down.

I'm not here in any capacity other than personal inclination and enrichment. I am who I've always been to friends here.
I've studied Statistics and Sociology at University. I studied what I found interesting. Reading threads for years, I've
noticed things, you know? I've not published and currently have no intention of doing so.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:25 pm

Rafael Behr‏ @rafaelbehr

Just realised no punters' emails in JC questions this week. Don't think they were missed much. #pmqs
12 Oct 2016, 12:27 pm

I would have to agree with that. I hope they don't make a comeback, tbh.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:25 pm

Be patriotic,cut you feet to size.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:26 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:An alternative theory. Now he's won the second leadership, and stamped his authority on the shadow team, he and his advisers no longer have to worry about firefighting against the bitterites on his own side - they've rendered themselves irrelevant to the Labour movement with their thumping loss in the leadership election - so Corbyn et al can concentrate on the job they're meant to be doing full time.

Yes, that's likely true, good thinking. Got the rigmarole out the way at the get go.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:28 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen 5m5 minutes ago

David Allen Green Retweeted Jonathan Ashworth MP

Not always seen eye-to-eye with @Keir_Starmer (#TwitterJokeTrial, if you recall it), but he is off to great start as shadow Brexit minister.
Not that you'd know it from what some people on here say.

As I have said, I think the fact that Labour's position is one that inevitably leads to Hard Brexit is not something Starmer is personally responsible for.

I think Labour can never regain power, so I am much more exercises by whether anything can be done to avoid Hard Brexit than by party politics(the latter just being a harmless diversion).

You do not want Labour government and you never have.

Well, not unless it is so far to the right even Mandelson would think it a bit too much.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 1:35 pm

TR'sGhost wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: Not that you'd know it from what some people on here say.

As I have said, I think the fact that Labour's position is one that inevitably leads to Hard Brexit is not something Starmer is personally responsible for.

I think Labour can never regain power, so I am much more exercises by whether anything can be done to avoid Hard Brexit than by party politics(the latter just being a harmless diversion).
You do not want Labour government and you never have.

Well, not unless it is so far to the right even Mandelson would think it a bit too much.

Bit odd then that I have been out campaigning for Labour and was a member for years then.

I don't want Corbyn as PM, I admit, but that doesn't distinguish me from 80% of the PLP.