Thursday 6th April 2017

[AnatolyKasparov]

Must admit that I wasn't totally sure about this school meals thing.

But the predictably witless reaction of so many "liberal" journalists is making me feel better disposed towards it

[adam]

Must admit that I wasn't totally sure about this school meals thing.

But the predictably witless reaction of so many "liberal" journalists is making me feel better disposed towards it

* You would need to come up with some other way of identifying 'pupil premium' students, as at the moment it follow on from FSM
* The people who are moaning about giving free food to everybody being a middle class giveaway tend to be ignoring the fact that abandoning any kind of eligibility test frees up funding to actually provide the resource.
* But there are still some good points being made about targeting the uses of scarce resources more effectively.
* I think the idea of expanding free breakfast clubs, for example, is a very good one - it could double up with funding before school sports and activities in a way that could start the day with a real bang and so have a positive effect on learning and behaviour and son on from then on in...

[SpinningHugo]

Must admit that I wasn't totally sure about this school meals thing.

But the predictably witless reaction of so many "liberal" journalists is making me feel better disposed towards it

It hardly matters what the policy is, does it?

[AnatolyKasparov]

Yes, lots of "liberal" journalists are witless about nearly everything

(though I suspect that is not what you meant, of course)

HOWEVER, as a general principle and other things being equal universality should be preferred to means testing.

[pk1]

It would need to be a hell of a capex programme, given that presumably by far the biggest expense of a school would be teachers. No input VAT on wages.

VAT is charged on all manner of things though, not just capex.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yes, lots of "liberal" journalists are witless about nearly everything

(though I suspect that is not what you meant, of course)

HOWEVER, as a general principle and other things being equal universality should be preferred to means testing.

What do you mean all things being equal?

The question is, is this best way to use the money? If it isn't, you spend money on what's the best thing instead. The SNP do this sort of popular universal thing. It sees money coming off other budgets. They've kidded lots of the electorate that it's the fault of "Westminster". Labour can't possibly do that.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Peers urge government to rethink bereavement benefit changes

[Tubby Isaacs]

Jeremy Corbyn MP‏Verified account @jeremycorbyn 4h4 hours ago
More
Labour’s #FreeSchoolMeals policy will mean better results, healthier children & end stigma around free school meals. RT if you’re with us →

No thanks. Because I'm a right bastard "liberal", as some of his fans call people who disagree.

Not having a pop at you here, Anatoly. I can see you're referring to some bad journos up there, who describe themselves as liberal.

[Tubby Isaacs]

- That was a nice free lunch. What have we got not now?
- Physics.
- Oh god. Mr Teacher is rubbish.
- I know. But the funny thing is, my brother has him for Maths and says he's good.

Other priorities.

edit- they don't do physics in primary school, do they?

[RogerOThornhill]

I don't know much, if anything, about VAT in schools & on supplies of FSMs but found this interesting comment BTL at the Times:

So it is proposed to make free school meals available to all primary age children, including not just middle-income parents who can well afford to pay, but presumably the children of parents who are earning enough to have their child benefit taxed. It would surely be more logical and a better use of limited funds to find a means of ensuring that kids who currently qualify for free school meals during term time get adequate nutrition in the school holidays as well.

Labour's suggestions on VAT appear to have fallen into the same trap as Michael Gove, writing in The Times recently. School fees are currently exempt from VAT. This means that schools do not charge VAT on their outputs (fees) but can't recover the VAT they are charged on their inputs (expenses). If you make school fees VATable (and you can't do this in any case until the UK is out of Europe, because the VAT exemption is the result of an EC directive), then you also allow private schools to reduce all their standard-rated input costs by 16.7%. Since the VAT system involves paying over (or being repaid) the difference between the VAT you have charged and what you have been charged in an accounting period, you could well end up with a situation where schools with large capital expenditure programmes receive large, regular cash refunds from the taxpayer.

Is s/he right ?

i don't think so.

My VAT knowledge is a trifle rusty after 8 years away but...

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-exempti ... -exemption" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exempt business
If you only sell or otherwise supply goods or services that are exempt from VAT then yours is an exempt business and:

you cannot register for VAT
you cannot recover any VAT you incur on your purchases or expenses

Therefore (I think) what you do is to ask your suppliers to submit invoices without VAT.

If legislation changes then public schools would have to register and then it would be the same as any other business and charge and reclaim VAT.

But don't quote me as I could be totally wrong.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Yes, lots of "liberal" journalists are witless about nearly everything

(though I suspect that is not what you meant, of course)

HOWEVER, as a general principle and other things being equal universality should be preferred to means testing.

What do you mean all things being equal?

Most major benefits should be universal (or nearly so) and means testing should be minimised as much as possible.

The "give to people who really need it" line is superficially beguiling to many with leftist sympathies, which is why the right are so fond of using it.

But in practice it can often lead to ghettoised, unloved provisions that are an easy target for the tabloids and expenditure cuts.

[pk1]

I don't know much, if anything, about VAT in schools & on supplies of FSMs but found this interesting comment BTL at the Times:

So it is proposed to make free school meals available to all primary age children, including not just middle-income parents who can well afford to pay, but presumably the children of parents who are earning enough to have their child benefit taxed. It would surely be more logical and a better use of limited funds to find a means of ensuring that kids who currently qualify for free school meals during term time get adequate nutrition in the school holidays as well.

Labour's suggestions on VAT appear to have fallen into the same trap as Michael Gove, writing in The Times recently. School fees are currently exempt from VAT. This means that schools do not charge VAT on their outputs (fees) but can't recover the VAT they are charged on their inputs (expenses). If you make school fees VATable (and you can't do this in any case until the UK is out of Europe, because the VAT exemption is the result of an EC directive), then you also allow private schools to reduce all their standard-rated input costs by 16.7%. Since the VAT system involves paying over (or being repaid) the difference between the VAT you have charged and what you have been charged in an accounting period, you could well end up with a situation where schools with large capital expenditure programmes receive large, regular cash refunds from the taxpayer.

Is s/he right ?

i don't think so.

My VAT knowledge is a trifle rusty after 8 years away but...

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-exempti ... -exemption" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exempt business
If you only sell or otherwise supply goods or services that are exempt from VAT then yours is an exempt business and:

you cannot register for VAT
you cannot recover any VAT you incur on your purchases or expenses

Therefore (I think) what you do is to ask your suppliers to submit invoices without VAT.

If legislation changes then public schools would have to register and then it would be the same as any other business and charge and reclaim VAT.

But don't quote me as I could be totally wrong.

Thanks Roger. I'd be surprised if suppliers invoiced private schools without charging VAT if the suppliers themselves are VAT registered ?

If Labour were in govt & enacted legislation to charge VAT on private schools, it's not unreasonable for those schools to reclaim the VAT element & I'd be interested to know whether there has been an assessment of the amount such a policy would raise. It sounds great to 'soak the rich' as Michael Gove said recently but I'd wager most parents are more interested in their children attending good schools with adequate numbers of teachers & resources.

The IFS evidence into the benefits of FSM on educational attainment is apparently based on a 2012 trial & that assessed a cost of £1bn per year for schools in England only. I don't know if any financial assessment has been made or if it's more a case of 'sounds good & let's hope nobody asks for details'

[Tubby Isaacs]

The right aren't that fond of it. When Gordo was reducing pensioner poverty with targeted money, they were shouting "75p a week. You're a disgrace!" Their reaction depends upon what the politics are. That's not where I'm coming from.

I can see the point that part of the media reaction is because Corby proposed it. With eg Blair it would be "reached out to wider middle classes".

I like the idea of the tax rise. But I can think of better things to spend it on off the top of my head. Capital investment to reduce school energy bills?

[Tubby Isaacs]

My sister used to be a VAT officer in a council.

[Willow904]

I'm generally in favour of free school meals. There are a lot of good arguments for it. I believe Finland provides free school meals. I'm less keen on the piecemeal, transactional stuff, though. If you are going to do it should be for everyone, right up to when they leave school at 18. Properly universal because it's a good policy, not just for little ones because they eat less so it's more affordable. Linking it to gimmicky tax policy makes me think this won't happen. If it's only going to happen if a specific tax raises enough money, I don't believe it's going to happen. It makes it sound like an indulgent extra rather than a core Labour policy. It did, however, get people talking about policy. Which is good.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Jeremy Corbyn MP‏Verified account @jeremycorbyn 25m25 minutes ago
The National Union of Teachers has just backed our plans to provide #FreeSchoolMeals to all primary school children.

[pk1]

I'm generally in favour of free school meals. There are a lot of good arguments for it. I believe Finland provides free school meals. I'm less keen on the piecemeal, transactional stuff, though. If you are going to do it should be for everyone, right up to when they leave school at 18. Properly universal because it's a good policy, not just for little ones because they eat less so it's more affordable. Linking it to gimmicky tax policy makes me think this won't happen. If it's only going to happen if a specific tax raises enough money, I don't believe it's going to happen. It makes it sound like an indulgent extra rather than a core Labour policy. It did, however, get people talking about policy. Which is good.

The gimmicky tax policy attached to it is what raised my suspicions that it's basically a way of trying to prevent the usual cry of 'how are you going to pay for it'

The cost of renewing school kitchens is going to be massive, let alone the costs of employing all those cooks. As the coalition govt soon found out, many schools have done away with them so they'd all need rebuilding, equipping & staffing. Outsourcing is another option but given the leadership frown on that generally, I doubt they'd be keen on it being used to provide school meals.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm generally in favour of free school meals. There are a lot of good arguments for it. I believe Finland provides free school meals. I'm less keen on the piecemeal, transactional stuff, though. If you are going to do it should be for everyone, right up to when they leave school at 18. Properly universal because it's a good policy, not just for little ones because they eat less so it's more affordable. Linking it to gimmicky tax policy makes me think this won't happen. If it's only going to happen if a specific tax raises enough money, I don't believe it's going to happen. It makes it sound like an indulgent extra rather than a core Labour policy. It did, however, get people talking about policy. Which is good.

I don't know if it's a gimmicky tax policy. It's another Miliband-style tax rise that the vast majority of people won't pay, and that's fine. The problem is that I'm sceptical how many of these there are out there, and when I look at the problems with funding ongoing services, I think we've got to stick pretty much all the extra money we raise into those.

Regressive Tory tax cuts are certainly part of the problem, but also stuff like the Lib Dem inspired big rises in the personal allowance are very much part of the problem with funding services compared to when Labour was last in government.

[gilsey]

It would need to be a hell of a capex programme, given that presumably by far the biggest expense of a school would be teachers. No input VAT on wages.

VAT is charged on all manner of things though, not just capex.

But not wages.

Silly example to show you what I mean.
Suppose a school's fees are £100k, the VAT on that would be £20k.
Say wages are £75k, the maximum input VAT on their other costs is 20/120*£25k, or about £4k, so £16k at least for the exchequer.
If they spend on capital out of their own surplus/reserves, they might get a rebate one year but it would even out over time.

Are they thinking of a situation where the school gets a massive donation specifically for a new building? Donations are outside the scope of VAT so expenditure out of that money is also outside the scope, no input tax recovery. There'd be an apportionment if it was part donation, part reserves.



RO'T

Therefore (I think) what you do is to ask your suppliers to submit invoices without VAT.

Customer's VAT status is irrelevant to whether supplier charges VAT or not, it's their own VAT status that counts.
I have come across situations in the past where, for administrative convenience, education bodies ask for invoices that don't show VAT separately. They shouldn't.


All this is assuming there's been no major rule changes in the last 5/6 years and I'm not going as doolally as Ken L.

[Willow904]

I'm generally in favour of free school meals. There are a lot of good arguments for it. I believe Finland provides free school meals. I'm less keen on the piecemeal, transactional stuff, though. If you are going to do it should be for everyone, right up to when they leave school at 18. Properly universal because it's a good policy, not just for little ones because they eat less so it's more affordable. Linking it to gimmicky tax policy makes me think this won't happen. If it's only going to happen if a specific tax raises enough money, I don't believe it's going to happen. It makes it sound like an indulgent extra rather than a core Labour policy. It did, however, get people talking about policy. Which is good.

I don't know if it's a gimmicky tax policy. It's another Miliband-style tax rise that the vast majority of people won't pay, and that's fine. The problem is that I'm sceptical how many of these there are out there, and when I look at the problems with funding ongoing services, I think we've got to stick pretty much all the extra money we raise into those.

Regressive Tory tax cuts are certainly part of the problem, but also stuff like the Lib Dem inspired big rises in the personal allowance are very much part of the problem with funding services compared to when Labour was last in government.

Yes, the Tories have seriously decimated the tax base. Not losing yet more services will be a struggle, let alone funding new committments. That's why I was so frustrated when Labour opposed the NICS rise for higher earning self-employed. Labour will need to convince people such tax rises are necessary to properly fund things like the NHS. Opposing tax rises on everyone but the very rich, from the very low base the Tories have taken us down to, isn't going produce the kind of changes this country needs.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm amazed Trump isn't the peace guy some people said.

[gilsey]

Linking it to gimmicky tax policy makes me think this won't happen. If it's only going to happen if a specific tax raises enough money, I don't believe it's going to happen. It makes it sound like an indulgent extra rather than a core Labour policy. It did, however, get people talking about policy. Which is good.

I'd say whacking VAT on school fees is a bit more than a gimmick, and more power to his elbow on that score.

The gimmicky bit is actually in pk1's quote, I think s/he's right that EU determines that Education is an exempt activity, it's not because private schools have charitable status that they don't charge VAT.
So this is a Lexiter policy idea.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yes, the Tories have seriously decimated the tax base. Not losing yet more services will be a struggle, let alone funding new committments. That's why I was so frustrated when Labour opposed the NICS rise for higher earning self-employed. Labour will need to convince people such tax rises are necessary to properly fund things like the NHS. Opposing tax rises on everyone but the very rich, from the very low base the Tories have taken us down to, isn't going produce the kind of changes this country needs.

Yep. I can see why oppositions do stuff like that- part of their job is to undermine the government- but it was a a decent amount of money, with a logic behind it.

Osborne, in that paradoxical way of his, knew that there was a problem he was creating with the tax base. He was obviously looking for new stuff and came up with pasties and caravans, which wasn't encouraging.

I wonder if Corbyn will just go for "penny on income tax for the NHS". I'd respect him hugely for that, but it wouldn't be easy.

[Tubby Isaacs]

But but but- I thought bombing Syria was unthinkable because a Russian plane would get shut down and precipitate nuclear war.

[AnatolyKasparov]

But but but- I thought bombing Syria was unthinkable because a Russian plane would get shut down and precipitate nuclear war.

That was actually enforcing a "no fly zone" (including Russia's planes) there I think.

HRC was very enthusiastic about this, as were "war party" Labour MPs like John Woodcock - but they always became flannely and evasive when asked if they *would* shoot Russian stuff down if it came to the crunch; "of course the Russians would have the sense to go along with it, that would never happen" etc etc.

Forgive some of us for finding that unconvincing given past events.......

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Evening All

I wonder why we (society) find school lunches so emotive.

If kids are at School all day they need some food. Just like they need exercise books, paper etc.

I do understand the "not the best use of cash" argument, but with appropriate taxation we could easily afford a modest meal for all our kids.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Fair comment.

Trump's "peaceniks" went a fair bit further than scepticism about the no-fly zone. Full on "faraway country" isolationism.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Evening All

I wonder why we (society) find school lunches so emotive.

If kids are at School all day they need some food. Just like they need exercise books, paper etc.

I do understand the "not the best use of cash" argument, but with appropriate taxation we could easily afford a modest meal for all our kids.

Hi Paul!

I think raising tax for a very precise thing inevitably generates stronger discussion than just saying it'll go on schools. Everybody can find "wonks" on Twitter to support or not support their argument.

[pk1]

Evening All

I wonder why we (society) find school lunches so emotive.

If kids are at School all day they need some food. Just like they need exercise books, paper etc.

I do understand the "not the best use of cash" argument, but with appropriate taxation we could easily afford a modest meal for all our kids.

Political parties should have the guts to increase general taxation for public services, not hide behind hypothecated taxes which would probably cost more to implement & generate less than aimed for.

[pk1]

General taxation ie income tax. The same tax that gets cut, leading to cutting of public services.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Evening All

I wonder why we (society) find school lunches so emotive.

If kids are at School all day they need some food. Just like they need exercise books, paper etc.

I do understand the "not the best use of cash" argument, but with appropriate taxation we could easily afford a modest meal for all our kids.

Political parties should have the guts to increase general taxation for public services, not hide behind hypothecated taxes which would probably cost more to implement & generate less than aimed for.

The problem with this is that since 2010 parties (read: Labour) have to say where the money is coming from for every policy that costs money or they will be ridiculed or dismissed. Simply saying 'we'll just put taxes up' and not be any more specific strikes me as a monumentally crap way to sell a policy costing.

Yes, exactly.

There have been examples of an honest "mainstream" tax rise being popular- Gordo raised NI for the NHS. But it is tough, and I don't think he fought an election on it.

I think Gilsey means "progressive tax made possible by leaving the EU".

[Tubby Isaacs]

The SNP's "penny for Scotland" and the Lab/Lib Dem variations this time were not popular.

Amazing, isn't it? Social democratic Scotland being pretty much like Kipperish English on tax.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... or-victims" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Government under fire over new child tax credit form for rape victims
Form requiring rape victims to declare that they do not live with attacker called ‘inhumane and barbaric’ and a ‘vile policy’

[HindleA]

Social care reviewer condemns UK system and calls for new tax
Andrew Dilnot says adult social care system is ‘most pernicious means-test’ in the British welfare state


https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HindleA]

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/ex ... itigation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Exposed: Mordaunt’s ‘false promises’ on WRAG cut mitigation

[Tubby Isaacs]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... or-victims


Government under fire over new child tax credit form for rape victims
Form requiring rape victims to declare that they do not live with attacker called ‘inhumane and barbaric’ and a ‘vile policy’

This policy ought to be really creaking by now.

Even leaving out rape, how do eg Roman Catholic politicians support it?

[HindleA]

Beyond me why anybody would support it.

[HindleA]

I suppose in the context of necessary rooms for care deemed spare and chargeable as default and having to apply for DHP's and reliance on a prognosis of your own demise being short enough to escape ESA cuts it makes perfect sense.

[HindleA]

Either fireworks I am hearing or I am under attack,wouldn't rule out the latter.

[HindleA]

I have an underground cupboard with supplies for such purposes.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Bit of fun at the awful David Goodhart's expense.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

Out of his depth.

[Willow904]

Lower demand for private schools places as well as extra tax money from wealthy people?

A win-win surely?!

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yeah but inelastic, so must be bad, whatever that means.

[Willow904]

Yougov have a question on whether people support expanding free school meals to all primary school pupils.

It's nice to see Labour dominating the news for the right reasons.

[citizenJA]

You okay, HindleA?

[gilsey]

Anyway, given that Brexit is happening, why shouldn't Labour look for ways in which they can make it work for the people? That does not make it a 'Lexiter policy'

No reason at all, sorry if I sounded a bit snarky. I think I meant, 'some people' will say aha, JC was a brexiter all along, as with state aid.

PS, Womble posted this on WNTT and wanted to post it here but no longer has login: "generally if your VATable income is higher than your VATable expenditure in any period, a payment will need to be made to HMRC. Given that VATable expenditure will be a relatively small proportion of the costs (wages taking up a significant portion) Corbyn’s policy will raise a fair amount more than is recovered by the schools."

That's what I said. Womble's reassured me that I'm not cracking up. Yet.

[HindleA]

@CJA Fireworks at (one of) the local hostelries.

[adam]

Either fireworks I am hearing or I am under attack,wouldn't rule out the latter.

Was that cannon fire, or is it my heart pounding?

*sigh*

[citizenJA]

@CJA Fireworks at (one of) the local hostelries.

Glad to know you're safe