Friday 14th to Monday 17th April 2017

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 3:47 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 83071.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
UK firms set to lose out on EU space mission contracts because of Brexit
Industry leaders blame British government for potential loss of billions of pounds

New European Commission rules governing the €10bn (£8.5bn) Galileo satellite navigation project give it the right to immediately cancel, without penalty, any contracts with companies that are no longer in EU states.

Tory Brexit Britain

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 3:49 pm

The Brexit Department are making arses of themselves. Tweeting out graphs to show how "global" Britain is. The graphs show trade taking off after joining the EU, really taking off after the Single Market, and growing with countries where the EU has deals.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 3:53 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

Yes, we all know. But the Campaign Group were a small fringe group throughout that time - with (crucially) no media support.

As for Ed's ratings, maybe they might have been better if everybody in Labour had got behind him from the outset - rather than swanning around with a totally unjustified and obnoxious sense of hurt entitlement because the "wrong" person won. Ed won the leadership for reasons, just like Jez.

The reality is that (even with the added racism since the referendum) Blairism/"third wayism" is a dead zombie ideology.

Its (still too numerous) adherents within the PLP are a dead weight upon Labour.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 4:03 pm

It doesn't matter how many were in the Campaign Group. If you've undermined other leaders, you won't be able to command loyalty. That's what happened to IDS.

The problem was Miliband wasn't (then) an impressive figure, and the Shadow Chancellor has allegedly caused the Crash. The public didn't get that sense because of Blair or Blairites.

Emmanuel Macron seems to be doing OK.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 4:06 pm

And the disloyalty of IDS was basically opposing Maastricht in Parliament. Corbyn appeared for years with people who very openly want Labour to fail. That was never going to work.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 4:17 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:It doesn't matter how many were in the Campaign Group. If you've undermined other leaders, you won't be able to command loyalty. That's what happened to IDS.

The problem was Miliband wasn't (then) an impressive figure, and the Shadow Chancellor has allegedly caused the Crash. The public didn't get that sense because of Blair or Blairites.

Emmanuel Macron seems to be doing OK.

Except when they effectively endorsed that narrative (as some did, even more so their outriders in the press - "SPENT TOO MUCH! SPENT TOO MUCH!!")

Interesting that you mention Macron - latest poll has him and MLP at 22%, Melenchon at 20%, Fillon at 19%. Not exactly sweeping the country, non?

And of course, if it indeed comes down to a choice between EM and the fascist I would support him without hesitation - just as with HRC over Trump. But that's not really the point is it, that le Pen should even be with a chance of winning is yet another indictment of "politics as usual".

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 4:46 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour should not have lost it, but it is possible for such a thing to have more than one cause. IMO it is fair comment that its both Corbyn and Blenkinsop wot dun it.

I'd say it's more to do with Brexit than either of those, we've a way to go before the shine wears off Mayhem, if it ever does.

I don't recognise skwalker's description of Coulby Newham as well-to-do, although it's true that it borders a well off area. As I remember skwalker actually lives round here so that's naughty.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 4:56 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:It doesn't matter how many were in the Campaign Group. If you've undermined other leaders, you won't be able to command loyalty. That's what happened to IDS.

The problem was Miliband wasn't (then) an impressive figure, and the Shadow Chancellor has allegedly caused the Crash. The public didn't get that sense because of Blair or Blairites.

Emmanuel Macron seems to be doing OK.
Except when they effectively endorsed that narrative (as some did, even more so their outriders in the press - "SPENT TOO MUCH! SPENT TOO MUCH!!")

Interesting that you mention Macron - latest poll has him and MLP at 22%, Melenchon at 20%, Fillon at 19%. Not exactly sweeping the country, non?

And of course, if it indeed comes down to a choice between EM and the fascist I would support him without hesitation - just as with HRC over Trump. But that's not really the point is it, that le Pen should even be with a chance of winning is yet another indictment of "politics as usual".

People are seduced by irresponsible politicians promising unrealistic simple solutions to complex problems. This is helped by the power social media now provides to publish bullshit as fact. In a prolongued economic downturn the extremists always win out (and make things much worse).

In fact Corbyn's problem is simple, he is electorally toxic. He has no strategy or plan to turn that around and seems to regard winning elections as a distraction to the job of going on protest marches. A better man would have recognised his total failure and stood aside.

If he was popular, ahead in the polls and performing well in the media he would have a largely compliant party. His opposition would be about 15 of the right wing awkward squad that we all laugh at. As it is the vast majority of MPs are hostile but keeping quiet.

Fundamentally you can try and rally the troops as much as possible, but eventually they notice that they aren't fighting battles in enemy territory but on their own doorsteps and that they are losing those battles badly. At which point the unbridled optimism and loyalty starts being seen as cynical propaganda trying to hang on for as long as possible before the inevitable end.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 5:04 pm

Shelly Asquith is either a dangerous liar or dangerously stupid.

Shelly Asquith‏Verified account @ShellyAsquith Apr 12
More
Replying to @ShellyAsquith
There should be no surprises at KCL spying on e-mails, either. Section 27 of Prevent Duty guidance recommends it. #StudentsNotSuspects

She posts this.

It doesn't recommend spying on emails, does it?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 5:12 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:It doesn't matter how many were in the Campaign Group. If you've undermined other leaders, you won't be able to command loyalty. That's what happened to IDS.

The problem was Miliband wasn't (then) an impressive figure, and the Shadow Chancellor has allegedly caused the Crash. The public didn't get that sense because of Blair or Blairites.

Emmanuel Macron seems to be doing OK.
Except when they effectively endorsed that narrative (as some did, even more so their outriders in the press - "SPENT TOO MUCH! SPENT TOO MUCH!!")

Interesting that you mention Macron - latest poll has him and MLP at 22%, Melenchon at 20%, Fillon at 19%. Not exactly sweeping the country, non?

And of course, if it indeed comes down to a choice between EM and the fascist I would support him without hesitation - just as with HRC over Trump. But that's not really the point is it, that le Pen should even be with a chance of winning is yet another indictment of "politics as usual".

People don't get all that many votes in the French first round. The system's a gift to gobshites who get a bit of impetus for "saying what they mean" and having "radical solutions". Hence Le Pen and Melenchon on the economy and EU.

It's a very tough call for a serious candidate, as Hollande found with his "far more trouble than it was worth" 75% tax rate which he'd chucked in to ensure he got through the first round.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 5:14 pm

On the spent too much stuff, I think it was hard to counter that, really. The debt wasn't supposed to rise above 40% in the longer term, was it? It would have been pretty easy to find statements from Gordo to that effect.

The thing to have done was to emphasize far more that Osborne had committed to spending the same.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 5:14 pm

Have we seen this insanity.

Kelvin may finally have gone too far, for no sensible reason.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39601728

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 5:19 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Shelly Asquith is either a dangerous liar or dangerously stupid.

Shelly Asquith‏Verified account @ShellyAsquith Apr 12
More
Replying to @ShellyAsquith
There should be no surprises at KCL spying on e-mails, either. Section 27 of Prevent Duty guidance recommends it. #StudentsNotSuspects
She posts this.

It doesn't recommend spying on emails, does it?

No it says you should have adult filters and extremism filters on your internet feed.

You expect that on any public Internet access system.

GCHQ are quite capable of spying on anything if they want, they don't need educational establishments to do that.

I think her previous tweet is actionable under a number of slightly dubious public order laws.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 5:29 pm

She's like the world's worst barrack room lawyer.

Shelly Asquith‏Verified account
@ShellyAsquith
Sorry @Hhi1 but one of the problems with #Prevent is how open to interpretation it is. This clearly is a result of section 26 in guidelines:

That apparently "causes" CCTV in prayer rooms. How something can be too vague and cause bad stuff at the same time, I'm not sure.

"Oversight committee", yeah, that means CCTV, doesn't it?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 5:48 pm

McDonnell: "Angela Rayner will become Nye Bevan of Corbyn government. She will go down in history for the National Education Service" #NUT17

Rayner is among the most promising new ones (with Clive Lewis) but this sort of talk doesn't help anybody.

Also perhaps revealing the "It's just like 1945!" mindset of the Labour left.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 5:53 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:She's like the world's worst barrack room lawyer.

Shelly Asquith‏Verified account
@ShellyAsquith
Sorry @Hhi1 but one of the problems with #Prevent is how open to interpretation it is. This clearly is a result of section 26 in guidelines:
That apparently "causes" CCTV in prayer rooms. How something can be too vague and cause bad stuff at the same time, I'm not sure.

"Oversight committee", yeah, that means CCTV, doesn't it?

Stupid and one of - deluded or malicious.

Section 26 clearly recommends putting in place a complaints mechanism, a set of rules around acceptable use and the monitoring / enforcement of those rules.

Much like a sports club would operate around their social facilities.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 5:59 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
McDonnell: "Angela Rayner will become Nye Bevan of Corbyn government. She will go down in history for the National Education Service" #NUT17
Rayner is among the most promising new ones (with Clive Lewis) but this sort of talk doesn't help anybody.

Also perhaps revealing the "It's just like 1945!" mindset of the Labour left.

Since there will never be a Corbyn government, in this reality at least, we will never know. Rayner might well have a career in the next non Tory government, provided she is still around in 10-20 years.

The next non Tory government may be a Labour, Labour successor party or the Lib Dems.

Does McDonnell expect normal people to take him seriously?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:04 pm

I hope that no-one of a nervous disposition is watching Sky News. The BBC, on the other hand, is perhaps a little over-relaxed about current world events.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:07 pm

Yeah.

As the woman she's talking to there says (somebody with loads of high level race relations experience, not least on the Tell MAMA advisory board) the bit she actually quotes (section 24) offers free guidance and training if there are confusions.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:10 pm

Good morfternoon.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:10 pm

Do we know who's doing the policy for the National Education Service?

Loads of work was done before 1997 on education, under Michael Barber.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:12 pm

The rate things are going, it'll require a Methuselah-like performance from Rayner to be in government.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:14 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:The rate things are going, it'll require a Methuselah-like performance from Rayner to be in government.

This is the sort of remark that grinds my gears, sorry.

Even if we assume that 2020 is a shoo-in for the Tories, everything after that is completely up in the air. If recent events haven't demonstrated that conclusively, what can?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:38 pm

It was a joke.

McDonnell isn't doing Rayner any favours by that sort of comment, which probably wasn't a joke.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:41 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:The rate things are going, it'll require a Methuselah-like performance from Rayner to be in government.
This is the sort of remark that grinds my gears, sorry.

Even if we assume that 2020 is a shoo-in for the Tories, everything after that is completely up in the air. If recent events haven't demonstrated that conclusively, what can?

If you have a change in Labour leadership 2020 might be difficult for the Tories and 202x more so as Brexit bites.

However I see no realistic possibility of a change, so we are left with a 1983+ style meltdown in 2020.

You must know how hard it is to recover credibility after such a drubbing, Kinnock failed in 87 and 92. So realistically a good Tory majority in 202x is odds on and 2030 or 2029 might be competitive, assuming change happens after 2020 (which is not certain).

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:42 pm

I didn't realise this.

http://www.aworldtowin.net/resources/GH.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Livingstone wrote a foreword to a book about Gerry Healey in 1994, in which he blamed the collapse of the WRP on the security services. Rather a lot of people blamed it on Healey committing sexual assaults on party members.

I mean, his fall isn't exactly before time, is it? However good he was as mayor.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:42 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:It was a joke

That's what smilies are for, you know

Though I do rather agree about McDonnells comment (interesting for students of Labour kremlinology, though - there was speculation AR had fallen a bit out of favour a while back)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:44 pm

I assumed it was a joke - without visual aids!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:46 pm

The point is, some people say stuff like that and mean it. That's my excuse anyway

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:53 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:It was a joke
That's what smilies are for, you know

Though I do rather agree about McDonnells comment (interesting for students of Labour kremlinology, though - there was speculation AR had fallen a bit out of favour a while back)

Oh apol!

The polling suggested Rayner looked a bit funny more than anything, I think.

She does remind me of Danielle Dax a bit. But this is what image consultants are for. Shouldn't be a terminal problem.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 6:57 pm

Angie Rayner.

Danielle Dax.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 7:03 pm

PorFavor wrote:I hope that no-one of a nervous disposition is watching Sky News. The BBC, on the other hand, is perhaps a little over-relaxed about current world events.

Meh, just good for the ratings.

While I suspect the DPRK army would collapse within a day of any sort of American invasion, nobody can realistically plan for that.

If Trump was going to attack we would be seeing a massive and prolongued build up. Since he won't attack and Kim can't attack it is as you were.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 7:07 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:It was a joke
That's what smilies are for, you know

Though I do rather agree about McDonnells comment (interesting for students of Labour kremlinology, though - there was speculation AR had fallen a bit out of favour a while back)

Se signed the MPs letter demanding proper action against Ken.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 7:12 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Yes, we all know. But the Campaign Group were a small fringe group throughout that time - with (crucially) no media support.

As for Ed's ratings, maybe they might have been better if everybody in Labour had got behind him from the outset - rather than swanning around with a totally unjustified and obnoxious sense of hurt entitlement because the "wrong" person won. Ed won the leadership for reasons, just like Jez.

The reality is that (even with the added racism since the referendum) Blairism/"third wayism" is a dead zombie ideology.

Its (still too numerous) adherents within the PLP are a dead weight upon Labour.

Yeah.

Time for some purges.

(Actually we've left or are leaving so don't bother).

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 7:23 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:The rate things are going, it'll require a Methuselah-like performance from Rayner to be in government.
This is the sort of remark that grinds my gears, sorry.

Even if we assume that 2020 is a shoo-in for the Tories, everything after that is completely up in the air. If recent events haven't demonstrated that conclusively, what can?

Grind away.

Labour can't come back from where it is now.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 7:47 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour should not have lost it, but it is possible for such a thing to have more than one cause. IMO it is fair comment that its both Corbyn and Blenkinsop wot dun it.

The numbers who'll know who Blenkinsop is, let alone changed their vote, will be tiny.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 7:54 pm

Even though he is the local MP? And one who likes publicity a fair bit??

Sorry, not buying it.

My former MP's name came up quite a bit in canvassing for the recent by-election. And more often than not, in a less than complimentary way.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 8:11 pm

That was a by-election caused by him resigning.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 8:39 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:That was a by-election caused by him resigning.

Rather more of a national news story than Blenkinsop.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 8:43 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Even though he is the local MP? And one who likes publicity a fair bit??

Sorry, not buying it.

My former MP's name came up quite a bit in canvassing for the recent by-election. And more often than not, in a less than complimentary way.

Really? You think the two set of circumstances are in any way similar? <French Mode ON> Pfffffff.

I would have gone with protest vote against the Labour council myself. No evidence for that either, but more plausible.

Still, if you are determined to contort yourself into ever more ludicrous positions to avoid seeing the obvious, you have done better than some of the other excuses I have seen.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 8:50 pm

I'm not "contorting" myself at all - come up here and ask anybody who was involved in the campaign.

Some of us can view things in the round, and haven't let a monomaniacal anti-Corbyn obsession drive out all else.

(though Tubby's point is also a fair one)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 9:08 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

London councils trying to force homeless families out of capital

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 9:55 pm

Two local council byelections this week:

Middlesbrough - Tory gain from Labour with a 13 per cent swing since a previous byelection here last year, but a rather more modest movement since the last regular elections in 2015 when Tories weren't far off winning one of the three seats here and Labour's share was only slightly down since then if at all. Previous to then the main opposition to Labour had come from Independents, who won one of the three seats here in 2011 and came second in the previous vacancy last year - their 24 per cent was a drop of 5 points since then but a slight advance since GE day. It may or not be no significant that there was no LibDem candidate this time - they ran Labour fairly close back in 2007 and polled some 14% two years ago. Greens polled little more than 2% in their first showing here, though this was almost exactly the same as the Tory victory margin.

West Dorset DC - Tory hold in a normally safe single member division, though they were run closer than usual as they beat a Green by a margin of just over 60-40 in a straight fight. This was almost double the Green share in 2015, and though they were likely aided by there being no Labour candidate this time the Tory share was also significantly down in a ward where (in previous 2 party contests) they beat Labour by over 3 to 1 in 2011 and the LibDems by 4 to 1 in 2007. In the light of this, a notably decent Green by-election performance - can they build on it?

Two more contests next week (intriguingly in the light of the 'Boro result, they are both Labour defences) in the final action before May's regular polls.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 10:17 pm

Thankyou

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 10:25 pm

Sun suspends Kelvin MacKenzie over column on Ross Barkley (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... -complaint

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 10:31 pm

Desperate hospitals beg doctors to take on extra shifts – at £95 an hour

Amid warnings chronic understaffing is putting patient safety at risk, emails and texts highlight struggle to meet need (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... 95-an-hour

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 10:42 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Sun suspends Kelvin MacKenzie over column on Ross Barkley (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... -complaint

We need to make this "suspension" stick.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 10:42 pm

@ HindleA

Ah - I thought it had to be my imagination . . .

Edited to add -

I usually follow your thought processes. I can give up now that I know I was simply hallucinating.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 10:49 pm

I'm now being told that the topic doesn't exist. I feel a Liza Minnelli moment coming on . . .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 10:50 pm

Or "Gaslight".