FlyTheNest

rebeccariots2 wrote:Can anyone tell me who the 'respected grandees' are from the Miliband era?

Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP who is in the contest to become his party’s candidate for London mayor, has said that if he wins, he will sell the water cannon Boris Johnson purchased. (Politics Blog, Guardian)

Tristram Hunt say Labour party needs 'shock treatment'
Shadow education secretary says party should combine patriotism and populism with Blairite financial policy if Labour wants to prosper
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Analysing the election defeat, he said: “In Scotland and England, for different reasons, too many voters felt Labour was not standing up for them or their national interest. We were to Scotland like the EU is to Greece – a foreign technocratic elite telling them they could not be trusted with their own affairs.

“This sort of national struggle between identity politics on one hand, and technocracy on the other, is increasingly the prism through which European voters refract their politics.”

SpinningHugo wrote:Moaning from my wing of the party reaching feverish levels.

The best, as usual, is Hopi Sen

http://hopisen.com/2015/one-step-beyond/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More irritable versions of the same thing

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/john-mcter ... is-a-tory/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/07/13/th ... or-labour/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/07/14/la ... ing-glass/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Genuine question for people here. Imagine, for a moment, thinking like me. You are on the right of the Labour party, but can see that the preferred strategy you'd like to pursue which you think will be successful is getting further and further away. The party is quite clearly moving away from you, and has been for at least five years.

What can you do? Other than moan on messgeboards.

[Alexis] Tsipras... admitted that he didn’t believe in the plan forced on Greece - but he’d do his best to implement it.

“I am fully assuming my responsibilities, for mistakes and for oversights, and for the responsibility of signing a text that I do not believe in, but that I am obliged to implement...”

http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... 297df2fec0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 wrote:

Tristram Hunt say Labour party needs 'shock treatment'
Shadow education secretary says party should combine patriotism and populism with Blairite financial policy if Labour wants to prosper
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe Hunt is one of the 'respected grandees' that previous article is referring to?

Analysing the election defeat, he said: “In Scotland and England, for different reasons, too many voters felt Labour was not standing up for them or their national interest. We were to Scotland like the EU is to Greece – a foreign technocratic elite telling them they could not be trusted with their own affairs.

“This sort of national struggle between identity politics on one hand, and technocracy on the other, is increasingly the prism through which European voters refract their politics.”

He seems to have nothing to say about Wales. I hope he doesn't believe - as Andy Burnham appeared to in his hustings here - that Wales is all rosy and has got the issue of identity politics all sown up. Burnham actually referred to Wales as a 'beacon'. Several people tried to disabuse him of that view. I would say that the feelings here about Labour central are pretty close to Hunt's metaphor re the EU to Greece - and that includes both Cardiff and Westminster.

SpinningHugo wrote:

rebeccariots2 wrote:Can anyone tell me who the 'respected grandees' are from the Miliband era?

Ed Miliband?
Most of the others are, of course, either standing for leader or supporting someone standing for leader.
Younger members don't tend to attend meetings in my experience. That is the claim in that post: the CLP support doesn't reflect the attitudes of the members who don't attend.

PorFavor wrote:

Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP who is in the contest to become his party’s candidate for London mayor, has said that if he wins, he will sell the water cannon Boris Johnson purchased. (Politics Blog, Guardian)

I think he might have a hard job shifting them, though. And if he did manage to, to what purpose would they be put by the new owner\s? I don't think he's thought this through.

mikems wrote:In my opinion, we are nearly back to the political setup of the19C, with Tories and Whigs. The working class has little or no representation and has to depend on the goodwill of the Whigs (New Labour) for any slight improvement in their lives, but the Whigs are little different to the tories, living in similar mansions, attending the same social functions, intermarrying for money and career, etc.

The Trade Unions are out in the cold, about to be returned to a state of illegality (with the Whigs silent) and desperate for a political party to represent their members...perhaps forced to the point of creating a new party, if it is still legal for us to do that...

Blairism is Whiggism - a pretence that capitalism can be made to work for all, when it really only works for capitalists.

Lonewolfie wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:Moaning from my wing of the party reaching feverish levels.

The best, as usual, is Hopi Sen

http://hopisen.com/2015/one-step-beyond/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More irritable versions of the same thing

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/john-mcter ... is-a-tory/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/07/13/th ... or-labour/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/07/14/la ... ing-glass/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Genuine question for people here. Imagine, for a moment, thinking like me. You are on the right of the Labour party, but can see that the preferred strategy you'd like to pursue which you think will be successful is getting further and further away. The party is quite clearly moving away from you, and has been for at least five years.

What can you do? Other than moan on messgeboards.

I've tried to read some of this but didn't get far, so apologies if the answer isn't focused on whatever they're talking about.....but really? Mithering on about 'unpopular leader' (how many on your 'wing' of the party actively supported Ed Miliband? Or did you all do CameronCrosbys work for them by telling everyone within earshot that you were/are Labour but that your leader was 'unelectable?), 'economic credibility' (no mention of the reality of economics from 2007 to 2010 - just an absolute acceptance of the CoulsonCameron (as it was then) line that 'Labour spent too much' - disproved then and now by the ONS, the IMF, the OECD, the OBR and on and on), 'leadership contest a total disaster'...really? With so much negativity towards your (supposed) own side, I'm surprised any of you are actually able to vote Labour at all.

All predicated, yet again, on the false notion that 'the Nation' supports that Tories....24% of the possible vote is NOT 'support' - from the things you write I get the impression that you believe(TM) everything within politics and done by politicians is done for it's 'impact' - Sturgeon saying something thoughtful and intelligent about foxhunting has you denouncing the statement as 'pure sophistry' (I'm no fan of Sturgeon/SNP due to the Murkydochian connections, but will give her the benefit of the doubt)...and yet, as with so much, some people actually believe things and understand realities, trying to at least do something useful to counteract the Tory hegemony.

Whilst you and your compatriots on the Blairite/right side of the party (for clarity, I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Labour Party - but I did vote Labour in 2015) stare into your navels and bemoan the fact that, now you've defeated Miliband, all you have left is to blame yourselves and wallow in your negativity...disabled children still starve, the NHS disappears into the US health corporations, Fire and Police services are effectively removed through cuts, child abuse victims still suffer their pain, Cameron continues to flounce about with his monstrous cohorts untroubled by the likes of an opposition, making more stuff up and continuing to avoid accountability for anything...all fully supported by the MSM, because 'Labour/Miliband would be/have been terrible'....but who for? Certainly not the vast majority of the population (and the badgers and the foxes etc etc).

Please don't get me wrong - this is not meant to be a personal attack on you, but I have a real issue with moaning and whining about how terrible/awful/disastrous Labour are....whilst the fabric of our society and the legacy of the post-war settlement continues to be destroyed, the rights of animals and humans are consigned to the dustbin of history - I could go on (and on and on and on) - the REAL enemy, the one that is sitting back, enjoying watching people suffer pain, mental torture, hunger and much more, laughing into its expense account and future highly lucrative employment with HSBC or GoldmanSachs (or G4S, Serco, Capita, Murkydochia etc) is very happy that you are more concerned by what 'Labour' did than what they are actually doing...so I have 2 answers to your question...either...

...get out and about, meet some real people who have been affected by the changes to PIP, the 'Bedroom Tax', the 'Welfare Reforms', Gidiots mythical 'economic recovery', the 'Benefits cap' (and on and on and on, again), learn what is actually happening (not what the MSM/Westmonster elite thinks it should tell you is happening), start to fight back and agitate for real change...

...or...

...join the Liberal Democrats.

(I'm hopeful that this post will qualify as 'civilised and reasoned dialogue'(TM-PF))..and moraftingeve all...

El pueblo unido jamas sera vencido

citizenJA wrote:

rebeccariots2 wrote:

Tristram Hunt say Labour party needs 'shock treatment'
Shadow education secretary says party should combine patriotism and populism with Blairite financial policy if Labour wants to prosper
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe Hunt is one of the 'respected grandees' that previous article is referring to?

Analysing the election defeat, he said: “In Scotland and England, for different reasons, too many voters felt Labour was not standing up for them or their national interest. We were to Scotland like the EU is to Greece – a foreign technocratic elite telling them they could not be trusted with their own affairs.

“This sort of national struggle between identity politics on one hand, and technocracy on the other, is increasingly the prism through which European voters refract their politics.”

He seems to have nothing to say about Wales. I hope he doesn't believe - as Andy Burnham appeared to in his hustings here - that Wales is all rosy and has got the issue of identity politics all sown up. Burnham actually referred to Wales as a 'beacon'. Several people tried to disabuse him of that view. I would say that the feelings here about Labour central are pretty close to Hunt's metaphor re the EU to Greece - and that includes both Cardiff and Westminster.

Good afternoon, RR2.
I'm uncertain about Tris Hunt on education in Wales.
He's convinced Kendall is best chance Labour have of being returned to government.
He may be right, probably is right - I'm unhappy this may be so because I don't want Kendall.
I don't like having to harken back to Tony Blair, I'm not now nor have ever been, a Blair supporter.
That being said, I'd take Tony Blair over the rabble of Tories currently destroying the nation & people.

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, and my point is that might have been better longer term.

(I remember Tories on election night 1997 saying "we should have lost in '92")

It is pretty rare to have a "good election to lose" (more so than some make out) but there is no doubt that they do exist.

And I haven't even mentioned how knifing Maggie in that way arguably f***ed the Tories psychologically for a generation.

(indeed, UKIP might not exist in the way they now do but for it)

AnatolyKasparov wrote:

citizenJA wrote:

rebeccariots2 wrote: Maybe Hunt is one of the 'respected grandees' that previous article is referring to? He seems to have nothing to say about Wales. I hope he doesn't believe - as Andy Burnham appeared to in his hustings here - that Wales is all rosy and has got the issue of identity politics all sown up. Burnham actually referred to Wales as a 'beacon'. Several people tried to disabuse him of that view. I would say that the feelings here about Labour central are pretty close to Hunt's metaphor re the EU to Greece - and that includes both Cardiff and Westminster.

Good afternoon, RR2.
I'm uncertain about Tris Hunt on education in Wales.
He's convinced Kendall is best chance Labour have of being returned to government.
He may be right, probably is right - I'm unhappy this may be so because I don't want Kendall.
I don't like having to harken back to Tony Blair, I'm not now nor have ever been, a Blair supporter.
That being said, I'd take Tony Blair over the rabble of Tories currently destroying the nation & people.

No, he's wrong.

Apart from the deficiencies of the platform she is putting forward, if she won the party would split horribly. Quite possibly worse than if Corbyn did.

(at least he would have lots of mainly young, enthusiastic supporters still - Kendall, not so much; Lord Sainsbury's money is not enough on its own)

It has to be Burnham or Cooper, I'm afraid.

mikems wrote:If strikes are to be effectively banned on those grounds, and not as part of shifting the balance of power between employers and workers, then why shouldn't a future socialist prime minister suggest banning capital and investment strikes? Or any sort of gambling on the exchanges because of the 'disruption' to 'essential services'?

rebeccariots2 wrote:I know I may well regret posting this .... but

Jeremy Corbyn "on course to come top" in the Labour leadership election
Private polling, seen by the New Statesman, shows the veteran leftwinger ahead in the first round of voting.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... p-election" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and the last two paras of that article:

It appears as if the Islington North MP's strength is largely coming from new and younger members. One CLP chair believes that "more than two thirds" of new recruits since the election are supporters of Corbyn, a finding mirrored by the leadership campaigns' experience of phoning new members. It also appears as if many members from the party's right have abandoned the party during the years of Ed Miliband, being replaced by what one staffer describes as "true believers".

There is now a conversation about what can be done to prevent a Corbyn victory. Some senior Labour MPs believe that respected grandees from the Miliband era and the party's "soft left" must come out against a Corbyn victory to prevent the worst happening. But given the hostile response to Harriet Harman's coded warning to "think not who you like and who makes you feel comfortable - think who actually will be able to reach out to the public and actually listen to the public and give them confidence", interpreted as an "anyone but Corbyn" call, that may prove ineffective.

My experience at our last two local party meetings doesn't bear out the first bolded sentence ... I was surprised that the pretty unanimous view of those present was that they mostly agreed with Corbyn - these were older members in both sense of the word. That seemed to be for two reasons - they were utterly underwhelmed by the other candidates - Corbyn has clear convictions and speaks pretty directly about them - the members are fed up with people who seem to need to work out what their views are against a whole range of other considerations including what they think people want to hear.

As for that second bolded sentence ... words fail me ... wrong on so many levels. Can anyone tell me who the 'respected grandees' are from the Miliband era? Are they the same ones that popped up to stick the oar in to Ed Miliband at every opportunity and remind us they thought we picked the wrong Miliband? Who are the party's 'soft left'? And who are the senior Labour MPs who think this interference is right or will in any way turn out well?

Nearly 9,500 people die early each year in London due to long-term exposure to air pollution, more than twice as many as previously thought, according to new research.

The premature deaths are due to two key pollutants, fine particulates known as PM2.5s and the toxic gas nitrogen dioxide (NO2), according to a study carried out by researchers at King’s College London.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... tion-study" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Putting into question its involvement in the new deal, the IMF suggested that Athens should receive a 30-year grace period before it has to start paying off its debts.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablo ... -explained" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov wrote:In my more idle moments I wonder if AB might have a touch of J H Wilson about him (I mean that as a compliment, for the avoidance of doubt )
Anyway, this leaked Labour leadership "polling".......
Who exactly did this polling, and why? And why has it been (rather selectively) leaked in this manner now?? (almost certainly, supporters of one of the two "centrist" candidates have done the latter, if not the former) The motivation is obvious - a significant part of JC's support is a "protest" vote, so if some of these people think he might actually win they could get cold feet. And it could also help unite anti-Corbyn people more behind one candidate (but who?)
And the apparent finding that the members who don't go to meetings are to the left of those who do goes against pretty much all previous contests (2010 included)
I'm not saying it *can't* be true, but as ever "cui bono"??
It would be nice to see a proper poll of the race, mind. YouGov did a poll last time and IIRC they weren't that far off the actual result.
(and for deputy too - is Watson really running away with it as some have claimed?)

Matt Chorley ‏@MattChorley 43m43 minutes ago
Jeremy Corbyn on course to WIN the Labour leadership #StorminCorbyn http://dailym.ai/1fJvKGg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov wrote:In my more idle moments I wonder if AB might have a touch of J H Wilson about him (I mean that as a compliment, for the avoidance of doubt )

It would be nice to see a proper poll of the race, mind. YouGov did a poll last time and IIRC they weren't that far off the actual result.

(and for deputy too - is Watson really running away with it as some have claimed?)

mikems wrote:http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-55 ... -win-votes

James Landale ‏@BBCJLandale 15m15 minutes ago
House of Lords has just voted to allow 16 & 17 year-olds to vote in local elections, forcing govt to try to overturn in Commons.

PorFavor wrote:

Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP who is in the contest to become his party’s candidate for London mayor, has said that if he wins, he will sell the water cannon Boris Johnson purchased. (Politics Blog, Guardian)

I think he might have a hard job shifting them, though. And if he did manage to, to what purpose would they be put by the new owner\s? I don't think he's thought this through.

Christopher Hope ‏@christopherhope 5m5 minutes ago
PM David Cameron tells his MPs tonight he is deliberately pushing through controversial policies to take advantage of Labour's "disarray".

Christopher Hope ‏@christopherhope 3m3 minutes ago
But so far this week the PM has had to drop controversial votes on English Votes for English Laws and fox hunting.

Angela Eagle ‏@angelaeagle 9m9 minutes ago
So far in the Evel debate one party (Tories) has spoken in favour of Govt's botched & shoddy plans all other six parties have spoken against

HindleA wrote:http://dpac.uk.net/2015/07/esa-claimant ... -think-so/


http://dpac.uk.net/2015/07/esa-claimant ... so-part-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


ESA claimants not incentivised enough to work ?

Andy Burnham visits Reading and sets out economic vision in Labour leadership contest

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/readin ... ts-9665810

rebeccariots2 wrote:Dear ..... give me patience. Mr Riots is cooking tonight. He has two surefire recipes in his repertoire - or I thought he did. Omelettes stuffed with good veg - and he does a stonking good mash.

I put out all the fresh veg on the kitchen table for him ...

About 10 minutes ago there was huge crash that jolted my nerves and had the cats exiting the cat flap like a bomb had gone off. He'd dropped the huge cast iron pan lid. Not an auspicious start.

A couple of minutes ago he popped his head around the door to ask me where the extra courgettes were ... 'on the kitchen table' I said in slow amazement as it dawned on me that all was really not well in Mr Riots' culinary kingdom. 'Oops' was the response ... 'what have I just cut up and put in the pan then?' 2 bloody cucumbers - that's what. Which I have just spent 2 minutes identifying and picking out of the pan for him .... grrrh. Can't send him back now - he's way out of warranty.

Violence and protests erupt on the streets of Athens ahead of vote on tough bailout measures

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 91670.html

HindleA wrote:We did once mistake a heated flannel for a banana fritter once on a meal out,well the lights were dimmed.

AngryAsWell wrote:Just as I settle on Andy, Yvette pops up talking sense - don't know if I'm coming, going or been....

"We Must Have the Confidence to Oppose Unfair and Damaging Tory Welfare Reform and Set Out an Alternative, Modern Labour Approach."
"It needs to look at how the state best supports work, prevents poverty and delivers value for money. That means rethinking the Tories Universal Credit which started with sensible aims but has now been so badly wrecked by George Osborne that it won't provide the proper incentives or rewards for work that must lie at the heart of the system."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/yvette- ... mg00000067" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical wrote:Steve Bell.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-cartoon

rebeccariots2 wrote:

AngryAsWell wrote:Just as I settle on Andy, Yvette pops up talking sense - don't know if I'm coming, going or been....

"We Must Have the Confidence to Oppose Unfair and Damaging Tory Welfare Reform and Set Out an Alternative, Modern Labour Approach."
"It needs to look at how the state best supports work, prevents poverty and delivers value for money. That means rethinking the Tories Universal Credit which started with sensible aims but has now been so badly wrecked by George Osborne that it won't provide the proper incentives or rewards for work that must lie at the heart of the system."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/yvette- ... mg00000067" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes - it was quite a good piece by her. Then she set out her proposal to set up a review into welfare, poverty etc. And I thought that was what Field and IDS had supposedly done ... and those sort of reviews always seem to take ages - so that bit of it doesn't particularly fill me with confidence. But then I don't know how else you'd approach it ...

refitman wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP who is in the contest to become his party’s candidate for London mayor, has said that if he wins, he will sell the water cannon Boris Johnson purchased. (Politics Blog, Guardian)

I think he might have a hard job shifting them, though. And if he did manage to, to what purpose would they be put by the new owner\s? I don't think he's thought this through.

Scrap value?