Thursday 20h August 2015

[utopiandreams]

Sorry just popped back for one more comment. I'm not sure where it was, possibly the Independent, but I noticed an article on old political grandees and their view on legalisation of cannabis (I scanned too quickly to know if applied to other drugs). Anyway I have to say I was rather surprised by who some were. Got to dash so shall leave it to others to check if interested. I remember Kinnock was one and, although I can place him, the name of one Tory in particular escapes me. I always did have a black-hole for names, it shall pop into my head sometime no doubt; always a problem in face to face conversations, which is why I overcompensate.

[AnatolyKasparov]

There are quite a few Tories of the more "libertarian" persuasion who favour giving up - or at least hugely scaling down - the largely futile and wasteful "war on drugs". And there are some within Labour (especially of the socially conservative persuasion) who are strongly against any relaxation.

Though let us recall that cannabis was originally downgraded when the Home Secretary was a certain David Blunkett - not exactly a stereotypical "latte liberal"

[TechnicalEphemera]

I can find that he was, in the distant past, a member of the Communist party, he left the SWP in 2007.

My husband sold Socialist Worker at Turnpike Lane tube station before we were married in the mid 70's. Should he have been banned from joining the Labour party a couple of years ago, 40 years later ?
That's what most of us did then.
I attended a meeting in support of ETA when I was a spring chicken, admittedly more for the opportunity of meeting some dark eyed young men than to support bombing.
Am I to be cast out of the tent too ?

The ridiculous thing is that the Labour Party is itself, two parties; the Labour PLP and the Co-Op Party, which includes Gordon Brown and Stella Creasy in their number.

All Left Unity, or the SWP, would have to do is to say that they agree not to stand against a Labour candidate standing on a Corbynite manifesto, and there wouldn't be an issue.

The Left Unity and SWP and TUSC should stand as separate parties and not try to infiltrate the Labour Party. When standing in elections they regularly get a pathetic number of votes.

They simply aren't selling what the public wants, however much people wish they did.

[citizenJA]

I'm rather comforted that Corbyn has solid and unmoveable beliefs [that he lives by] and won't be sidetracked.

I don't think, I know we'll need someone who won't be swayed/bribed/co-erced/forced from their objective when it means the health and survival of those less well off.
We have to remember. The right, the city, the bankers, the 1%, are fighting for their survival as we are. It's human nature.

Unfortunately even though we have right on our side, we don't have the the birth, the money, or the connections to counteract the damage they cause.
All we can do is select someone who truly believes we are worth fighting for, and is prepared to dig their heels in.

I believe we had such a one in Ed. I hope we've found his successor.

Good-morning, everyone.
I like your post a lot, Ohso.

Please, everyone, do whatever you can to prevent a few Tories from taking everything away from the people - right now I'm specifically concerned about reality.
Mass media owned by these few spread confusion, black is white, war is peace & insanity.
Tory government are frightening.

[citizenJA]

Greece receives new bailout funds and repays ECB

Double-plus good.

[TechnicalEphemera]

On the Corbyn coup story I would suggest the signs are not hopeful because of the noises being made by the Corbyn camp.

In short he seems to be advocating a return to the 1980s shambles where party activists had direct control over policy. Nobody in the parliamentary Labour Party will stand for that and with good reason.

There is a saying that learning from your mistakes is an expensive way to learn, but it is better than not learning from your mistakes.

Corbyn's camp is not learning from the mistakes that rendered the Labour Party unelectable. Activists are far far to the left of majority public opinion in this country. If for example the Tories permitted their activists to dictate policy how electable would they be.

Vote Tory for - Capital Pubishment, Zero welfare state, Flat tax, and a pay for use health service.

All popular with Tory members, not so much with the country.

So if Corbyn really is going down this line the Parliamentary party will strike sooner rather than later. Sure they will lose most of the new sign ups, the unions will stay onside provided they aren't handed a Blairite.

If however Corbyn is true to his word of working with the parliamentary party his opponents will sit on their hands to see how it all plays out. They are prepared to go to war, but they won't do so unless they feel directly threatened.

[citizenJA]

15m ago12:29

Wall Street is bracing for losses when trading begins in two hours time

33m ago12:13

The French and German stock markets have also pushed lower through the morning, and are both down over 1% as traders head for lunch.

The latest slide on the Chinese stock market (down 3% today), and fresh tensions in emerging markets (hello Kazakhstan!) overshadowed any relief over Greece.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... rkets-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just out with it, you b******s, this crash is the fault of the few, not the fault of regular people in every single country of the world.
Make sure it's the few causing the problems paying for this one this time.

[ephemerid]

Greece receives new bailout funds and repays ECB

Double-plus good.

It's only good from the point of view that the ECB has been paid.

It's a lot less good for the Greek people, who will still be living with vicious austerity.

Part of the deal includes privatisation of Greek assets - rail, road, air and sea ports, real estate, and more.

I have no idea what could or should be done about Greece's problems. It's a mess, but I think the collusion between the bigger EU powers and previous (corrupt) Greek governments are partly to blame.
The Greeks should, in retrospect, never have joined the Eurozone - had the Greek leaders at the time and their pals at Goldman Sachs not colluded to cook the books, they might still have the Drachma.

It's all a mess. Rowson is very good on it today.

[rebeccariots2]

10 Reasons Why Voting For Corbyn Will Cause Civil War.jpg (80.63 KiB) Viewed 5553 times

Ian Dunt retweeted
Andrew Brooks ‏@taxbod 5h5 hours ago
Corbyn has met many of the world's most unpleasant dictators and never once sold them any arms. via @PrivateEyeNews

[SpinningHugo]

I am somewhat puzzled as to what RoT thinks my hidden agenda might be.

I set out at great length when I joined why I support Labour. Recently I was challenged to set out the kind of policies I want from a candidate, and set those out at length.

Like 90% of the PLP I don't want Corbyn as leader, and also think he will be a catastrophe for the Labour movement. I understand why a majority of the membership disagree.

I am banned on the Graun, but registration takes about 30s. I make no attempt to hide who I am. When one of the regulars on politics live reports me as Hugo, the Graun can see my IP address and will delete me. Doesn't really bother me.

On here I think the rudest thing I have said was "mad bastards" as an exclamation reporting the yougov poll showing Corbyn clearly winning. I am rather surprised at the he sensitivity.

I only came on originally to say that people were calling nutjobs on CiF Hugo, when they were not me. I got caught up in the tragedy of the GE and then the car crash of the Labour leadership election. If people want me to leave that is fine.

[ephemerid]

Also - the suicide rate among men of working age increased by 35% between 2010 and 2012.

The new austerity measures were imposed in 2010.

At one point 500 men were killing themselves every month - average age 36.

This is from a study reported widely via Medscape and the International Business Times.

[citizenJA]

Greece receives new bailout funds and repays ECB

Double-plus good.

It's only good from the point of view that the ECB has been paid.

It's a lot less good for the Greek people, who will still be living with vicious austerity.

Part of the deal includes privatisation of Greek assets - rail, road, air and sea ports, real estate, and more.

I have no idea what could or should be done about Greece's problems. It's a mess, but I think the collusion between the bigger EU powers and previous (corrupt) Greek governments are partly to blame.
The Greeks should, in retrospect, never have joined the Eurozone - had the Greek leaders at the time and their pals at Goldman Sachs not colluded to cook the books, they might still have the Drachma.

It's all a mess. Rowson is very good on it today.

The ECB lends, the ECB takes it all away.
We're all paying over & over again for what already belongs to us all.

[rebeccariots2]

Kate Hoey retweeted
Jason_Cobb ‏@Jason_Cobb 2h2 hours ago
Many thanks for your support @KateHoeyMP http://onionbagblog.com/2015/08/20/whyn ... bourparty/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … I will continue to hold Labour values, even if my local party doesn't.

[RogerOThornhill]

I am banned on the Graun, but registration takes about 30s. I make no attempt to hide who I am. When one of the regulars on politics live reports me as Hugo, the Graun can see my IP address and will delete me. Doesn't really bother me.

Why is that though - what do they know about you that that makes it an issue for you posting there?

Also, why bother re-registering? Most people e.g. good old Burgau would get quickly tired of it and simply not bother again.

[TechnicalEphemera]

I am somewhat puzzled as to what RoT thinks my hidden agenda might be.

I set out at great length when I joined why I support Labour. Recently I was challenged to set out the kind of policies I want from a candidate, and set those out at length.

Like 90% of the PLP I don't want Corbyn as leader, and also think he will be a catastrophe for the Labour movement. I understand why a majority of the membership disagree.

I am banned on the Graun, but registration takes about 30s. I make no attempt to hide who I am. When one of the regulars on politics live reports me as Hugo, the Graun can see my IP address and will delete me. Doesn't really bother me.

On here I think the rudest thing I have said was "mad bastards" as an exclamation reporting the yougov poll showing Corbyn clearly winning. I am rather surprised at the he sensitivity.

I only came on originally to say that people were calling nutjobs on CiF Hugo, when they were not me. I got caught up in the tragedy of the GE and then the car crash of the Labour leadership election. If people want me to leave that is fine.

I would certainly be fairly unhappy if you left, your contributions add to the site. This is the Internet any one of us could be Peter Bone indulging in a left wing fantasy and nobody else would know.

I doubt people with hidden agendas post on FTN, or even CiF. I suspect they inhabit real meetings where real issues are decided.

[TechnicalEphemera]

I am banned on the Graun, but registration takes about 30s. I make no attempt to hide who I am. When one of the regulars on politics live reports me as Hugo, the Graun can see my IP address and will delete me. Doesn't really bother me.

Why is that though - what do they know about you that that makes it an issue for you posting there?

Also, why bother re-registering? Most people e.g. good old Burgau would get quickly tired of it and simply not bother again.

Ernst is also banned from the Guardian I believe. It isn't a crime that merits explanation.

If Hugo is some secret master criminal with a cunning agenda hatched at Dr Evil's lair (a service station just North of Preston on the M6) - Why is he posting here? Anybody out there basing policy on FTN postings?

[ephemerid]

I am somewhat puzzled as to what RoT thinks my hidden agenda might be.

I set out at great length when I joined why I support Labour. Recently I was challenged to set out the kind of policies I want from a candidate, and set those out at length.

Like 90% of the PLP I don't want Corbyn as leader, and also think he will be a catastrophe for the Labour movement. I understand why a majority of the membership disagree.

I am banned on the Graun, but registration takes about 30s. I make no attempt to hide who I am. When one of the regulars on politics live reports me as Hugo, the Graun can see my IP address and will delete me. Doesn't really bother me.

On here I think the rudest thing I have said was "mad bastards" as an exclamation reporting the yougov poll showing Corbyn clearly winning. I am rather surprised at the he sensitivity.

I only came on originally to say that people were calling nutjobs on CiF Hugo, when they were not me. I got caught up in the tragedy of the GE and then the car crash of the Labour leadership election. If people want me to leave that is fine.

I am also puzzled about what your "hidden agenda might be". Have you got one?

I don't want anyone to leave, you included - but I think you are, at times, deliberately provocative. It's not pleasant.

Example - this morning, you gave us links to two articles.

One, from Human Rights Watch, listed various issues with Chavez's which demonstrate how power can corrupt. Some of this information is interesting and some of it is appalling if true; some of it, like the "Embracing Abusive Governments" is less so, particularly when the leaders mentioned have all been "embraced" by Western governments, including ours. No mention of any good Chavez did.
HRW has been criticised for being influenced by US government foreign policy.
The other, written by Jeremy Corbyn on the death of Chavez, listed his achievements in terms of social good, and noted that he was re-elected 3 times. The final paragraph points out why Corbyn does not think Chavez was a dictator; and presents a very different argument on the media and the judiciary than the other article.

I am assuming that you are trying to make a point. Perhaps you would like us to consider that Chavez was guilty of all manner of egregious antics (whilst ignoring the good he did) and Corbyn is wrong to offer praise on his demise.
Maybe the idea is to attempt to reinforce your view that Corbyn is a terrible person because he has terrible friends and support terrible people. I don't know. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
But I feel that as you do this on a regular basis - along the "light the blue touchpaper and retire" lines - you are deliberately baiting people. I feel that by combining this with your very very sincere protestations that you really really are Labour to the core, the effect is that of concern trolling. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

You also have a way of making your magisterial pronouncements in a way that comes across as very patronising (I'm aware that I can be like that at times, but I at least make an effort to avoid it); and when someone challenges what you say, you argue and argue in a circular fashion until I'm no longer entirely sure where you actually stand.

I don't know why you were banned from the Guardian. Perhaps you could tell us. But as you keep on going back and you never ever give up, I can only assume that you have a need to insist your voice is heard. Good for you.
I don't want people leaving here - but if someone here is, in my opinion and my opinion only, deliberately winding people up or indulging in concern trolling or being rude/patronising/tedious/whatever, then I'll call them out on it.

Maybe a little insight into the way you do things wouldn't go amiss. Thanks.

[utopiandreams]

@TechnicalEphemera

I understand where you're coming from but don't agree, a politically active groundswell is needed more than ever if Tories are to be deprived of power before they wreak further destruction on our fragile society. I've called it Thatcherism, but that is laying far too much of the responsibility on her shoulders alone; Reaganomics, the Chicago School, neoliberal economics, call it what you will. Besides on a world stage American or Republican influence to be more specific predates even them. Nevertheless albeit not really a socialist, I've always been averse to the powers that be so accept I could be completely wrong. Excepting indirectly in 2010, I have never voted in GEs for the governing party and even then had Clegg telling me to fuck off, albeit more politely but equally insulting, when challenging his actions in coalition. Just call me a contrarian if you like.

@SpinningHugo

Before you posted here, I'd always taken you for a Tory and more latterly an Orange-Booker. I was slightly surprised by your introductory post over here that explained aligned to Blair. However although I disagree with much of what you say I quite like your differing views being posited here. Having said that, I do understand others feelings toward you, allowing for partisan feelings, they largely mirror my own toward Orange-Bookers wrecking what I believed was my party. I still haven't found a hat that fits, although I'd better hurry up; I occasionally feel a cold spot on the top of my head if I lean it against a wall. At least I hope you don't intend to upset, but notice you're not entirely alone on that score. Perhaps sensitivities can run a little high at times, that's the nature of online fora. Thankfully when I was responsible and a moderater it was never an issue, but that was in an academic context rather than the personal.

@onebuttonmonkey
I appreciate I used the term 'my' party, which is even more unforgivable in my case having grown up around Birmingham where 'Our kid' translates as 'my brother', so was the term I grew up with. There really is no excuse if I mistakenly use 'my' where our is appropriate. I noticed far too late to say so in the other place but think you were splitting hairs. I did recommend whoever it was that said as much, nevertheless I love your criticism of dissembling (can it be an adjective?) language, even though I myself often struggle for the correct word these days. Truth be known they tend to roll off the tongue when speaking but often slip my mind by the time I catch up when typing.

---
On a completely separate note, partially because my eldest found a yellow plastic toy phone in his suit pocket at work plus whoever it was that mentioned whistling. I responded that I thought his embarrassment somewhat less than the time I caught myself whistling Postman Pat at work. Oh the joys of parenthood! 'And on age, greying hair and being thin on top, my youngest told me that he dreamt of my being completely senile (in an amusing way rather than the horrors of dementia). My response: 'Tell me about it, I had a sexy dream the night before last. All was going splendidly until she suddenly changed her mind; I really must be getting old when I'm turned down in my dreams'. Not anyone I know I hasten to add. Too much? I really am going now, at least till this evening perhaps.

Just hanging about a few minutes more to express some thanks.

[TechnicalEphemera]

We may have had this linked, but if we hadn't here it is.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... byn-really

[ephemerid]

Hurrah!

We have had our regular visitation from the ever-idiotic, pathologically rude, and ridiculously silly Rustinpeace.
Bless.
Not only does he know what "most of " Twitter thinks, he chose not to accede to Hugo's alleged pleadings to leave us alone - examples of the oeuvre from that little visitation are on the site somewhere.

Next -

Happy Chickie trolls in to join her corroded friend to spread joy and cheer to us poor handout junkies!

Truly, my cup runneth over.....

[SpinningHugo]

Eph

The point about the Venezuela post was indeed to show you the sharp difference between the views if Hunan Rights Watch and our those of our new leader. One of dozens of examples of Corbyn's aligning himself with enemies of the west, however dubious they may be.

Human Rights Watch, for the avoidance of doubt, are not a rightwing front.

As to why I am banned at the Graun, I have no idea.

[utopiandreams]

Oops I've got a boiler engineer here at the moment and we've just had a rather heated argument when I said that instead of getting on I'd been annoying people online. Then I mentioned IDS and he argued that there shall always be people upset by cuts but how necessary they were and that the Tories always had to remedy Labour's extravagance. It wasn't long before voices were raised with my arguing back to Thacher and the effects of bank deregulation. Even then he spoke in terms of isolated cases and not the widespread harm. I eventually calmed things down by explaining that neither was I a Labourite. I hope he doesn't sabotage my boiler.

It had all started so peacefully, laughing and joking over anecdotes about some of our respective clients. Coincidentally one of my past clients was Corgi registered and had a team of plumbers doing work contracted to Homeserve, our starting point.

[citizenJA]

How many want coffee with their carrot cake?
How many for tea?

[ohsocynical]

How many want coffee with their carrot cake?
How many for tea?

Tea please. Builders brew, half a teaspoon of sugar...In fact you can leave the teabag in

[utopiandreams]

Coffee thanks, strong and black please, no sugar, JA. I hope the carrot cake ain't too sweet mind. On that note I noticed some discussion on crumbles the other day, something I love but when I follow (pud/cake) recipes I always half the sugar. Hardly use salt for that matter; not talking puddings now, lots of spices and herbs though.

[citizenJA]

Enjoy.
We've got to keep our strength up.

[ephemerid]

Eph

The point about the Venezuela post was indeed to show you the sharp difference between the views if Hunan Rights Watch and our those of our new leader. One of dozens of examples of Corbyn's aligning himself with enemies of the west, however dubious they may be.

Human Rights Watch, for the avoidance of doubt, are not a rightwing front.

As to why I am banned at the Graun, I have no idea.

Thanks for confirming that.

I won't get into an argument about how many other (more mainstream?) Labour politicians have aligned themselves with "enemies of the West" (hah!) but simply point out that you have thrown this "sharp difference" in with no further comment.

And that is why I think you often do things to provoke - whether that's with a view to getting yet more circular arguments going, or just because you feel like it, I don't know.
I notice you don't respond to the other things in my post and I have to wonder why. You know that people often find your ideas and your style difficult. Why ignore it?

I've been trained in behavioural psychology, and I think there must be some reason why you do these things. It's not attractive, and it's more likely to get peoples' backs up (as evinced by many responses to you here and elsewhere) than to convert them to your view.
In fact, it seems to do the reverse.

Perhaps you might like to explain that.

(Edited to add - Corbyn is not "our leader" yet)

[SpinningHugo]

Ephem

As I have said, I think you are best off ignoring me.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Eph

The point about the Venezuela post was indeed to show you the sharp difference between the views if Hunan Rights Watch and our those of our new leader. One of dozens of examples of Corbyn's aligning himself with enemies of the west, however dubious they may be.

Human Rights Watch, for the avoidance of doubt, are not a rightwing front.

As to why I am banned at the Graun, I have no idea.

Thanks for confirming that.

I won't get into an argument about how many other (more mainstream?) Labour politicians have aligned themselves with "enemies of the West" (hah!) but simply point out that you have thrown this "sharp difference" in with no further comment.

And that is why I think you often do things to provoke - whether that's with a view to getting yet more circular arguments going, or just because you feel like it, I don't know.
I notice you don't respond to the other things in my post and I have to wonder why. You know that people often find your ideas and your style difficult. Why ignore it?

I've been trained in behavioural psychology, and I think there must be some reason why you do these things. It's not attractive, and it's more likely to get peoples' backs up (as evinced by many responses to you here and elsewhere) than to convert them to your view.
In fact, it seems to do the reverse.

Perhaps you might like to explain that.

(Edited to add - Corbyn is not "our leader" yet)

I would suggest that Chavez probably wasn't an enemy of the west, but he did ignore basic human rights. Corbyn's article was, as is often the case, ill advised.

Believe me post election, if he wins, all this stuff and more is going to be thrown at him. Hugo can't be blamed for posting it without comment. Whether it achieves anything to do so is debatable, but just because people don't want to see problems doesn't mean they shouldn't be pointed out.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The Greeks should, in retrospect, never have joined the Eurozone - had the Greek leaders at the time and their pals at Goldman Sachs not colluded to cook the books, they might still have the Drachma.

This isn't actually correct- Goldman Sachs got involved when Greece was already headed for the Euro, in 2001, which was a transition to full adoption of the Euro in 2002. Italy though had done similar tricks before they joined.

It was political. The EU leaders wanted as many countries in as possible, rules were ignored, and they counted on fixing stuff later but the Crash intervened. Even though the EU actually spotted the Goldman trick and quickly revised up the Greek debt figures, the fact that Germany and France kept breaking the rules made it hard for anyone to hardball Greece.

Greece and Italy should never have been allowed in.

[ohsocynical]

MoT meltdown: Thousands of motorists face being forced off the road due to computer glitch

THOUSANDS of motorists have been forced to give up driving, or to drive illegally, after glitches in the Government's new MoT system left thousands of garages unable to issue valid certificates.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/599606 ... rages-DVSA

Another cock up. I wonder exactly how much all these disastrous schemes have cost.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I would suggest that Chavez probably wasn't an enemy of the west, but he did ignore basic human rights. Corbyn's article was, as is often the case, ill advised.

Believe me post election, if he wins, all this stuff and more is going to be thrown at him. Hugo can't be blamed for posting it without comment. Whether it achieves anything to do so is debatable, but just because people don't want to see problems doesn't mean they shouldn't be pointed out.

Well, America saw Chavez as an enemy, that's for sure. It's understandable to take sides in that.

I think the poor judgement came with lots on the left, including me to some extent, in thinking Chavez was doing much more than chucking oil money about, having himself massively weakened the state oil company.

[HindleA]

I just post barely understandable meandering bollocks,or links.That I am a secret agent for IDS seems to have escaped you all;laughs hysterically twiddles non existent moustache and goes for a long lie down in a darkened room.

[citizenJA]

MoT meltdown: Thousands of motorists face being forced off the road due to computer glitch

THOUSANDS of motorists have been forced to give up driving, or to drive illegally, after glitches in the Government's new MoT system left thousands of garages unable to issue valid certificates.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/599606 ... rages-DVSA

Another cock up. I wonder exactly how much all these disastrous schemes have cost.

Tory government boondoggle involving people's automobiles - when will Tories experience their Waterloo?

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think Raed Salah is what's going to really hurt Corbyn. Sure, the British Government's treatment of him was wrong (as the courts found) but he's a nasty bit of work.

Get too close to people like that, and you'll get bitten on the arse.

[Temulkar]

I think Raed Salah is what's going to really hurt Corbyn. Sure, the British Government's treatment of him was wrong (as the courts found) but he's a nasty bit of work.

Get too close to people like that, and you'll get bitten on the arse.

Are the right of the party still doing smear by assosciation. Desperate stuff, and rather counterproductive. I mean Blair has met with terrorists paedophiles and despots - Does that make him a despotic paedophile terrorist lover?







Get too close to people like that, and you'll get bitten on the arse.

[ScarletGas]

Good Afternoon,

I have been away for a week or so on a trip to Bohemia so did not contribute or even lurk.

I was on one of those tours frequented by a demographic (of a certain age, comfortably off) that are not usually deemed to be sympathetic to the left in politics. During our time together discussions inevitably turned to the state of the nation. It surprised me to find that their was a general goodwill to the centre left (make up your own definition) but that what people voted for it May was not generally policies but competence. Although some Labour proposals (Non Doms,Energy, Rail) were deemed to be popular the party came over as less than competent. This seemed to be more of a reason people did not vote for them that the Miliband is weird meme. They did not want some weak version of what we have now they want a party that give a strongly differential view and fights that corner from conviction. In short they want choice.

It was clear that although these people were interested in politics they got their knowledge overwhelmingly, not unnaturally from the fourth estate. In general however they are unaware of the political persuasion and/or connections of contributors.One, seemingly intelligent man, thought Danny Finkelstein was pretty independent of thought!This is one area where, in my view, the party whoever is elected leader needs a root and branch review of its attitude to the press in general.

As long as the written press portray incompetents like Gove, Osborne and May as political geniuses then Labour will struggle. As long as Sycophants such as Stig Abel and Tom Newton Dunn ignore the lies and mistruths of IDS and adopt a sneering,patronising attitude to anything involving the left then the left will have a problem. As long as Simon Danzcuk continues to rake in a significant income from media unsympathetic to the left by giving his pretty unrepresentative views then there will be a view of Labour as a set of incompetents.Compare and contrast the treatment of Cameron struggling with a tube of Pringles to the treatment of Miliband and the bacon sandwich.

This area is one of many (but probably more important than most) where I believe Labour has to make a break from its recent past. Andy, Yvette and Liz seem incapable of firstly introducing any charisma to or enthusiasm from the general public.Their policies seemed to be hitched to the current accepted narrative and this includes accepting the press as some sort indicator as to how the general public think. The media are an important vehicle but not the be all and end all. Rarely do they reflect public opinion but tend to influence to the benefit of their owners interests. Until and unless the left take on the press in a sensible, constructive manner they will always be losers.

So in this election I am not looking for a PM.I am not sure Corbyn wants to be PM but he needs to be a the centre of the party's reconstruction based on the grassroots reaction. By the way McTernans observation that the grassroots should be ignored was a disgrace and indicative of the need for change. I know five years is not long but, again in my view, the party needs to understand what it stands for and how it will get to a stage where it is looking for a future PM. AB,YC,LC are not looking to or even capable of this. If this means some people will leave so be it I am sure others will come along. There are candidates that did not stand in this election that will develop and grow to potential leaders in the next few years but first the party needs to find its heart again.

So its Corbyn and Creasey for me.

I am sure some on here will disagree, that is your prerogative.

[citizenJA]

Good Afternoon,

I have been away for a week or so on a trip to Bohemia so did not contribute or even lurk.

[text]

So its Corbyn and Creasey for me.

I am sure some on here will disagree, that is your prerogative.

Welcome back!
I don't disagree with you; they're both Labour party MPs.
I'll probably vote for Angela Eagle for Deputy Leader.
I'm still thinking about the choice I make about the Labour leadership position.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think Raed Salah is what's going to really hurt Corbyn. Sure, the British Government's treatment of him was wrong (as the courts found) but he's a nasty bit of work.

Get too close to people like that, and you'll get bitten on the arse.

Are the right of the party still doing smear by assosciation. Desperate stuff, and rather counterproductive. I mean Blair has met with terrorists paedophiles and despots - Does that make him a despotic paedophile terrorist lover?







Get too close to people like that, and you'll get bitten on the arse.

So Jimmy Savile 20 odd years ago, when he was known primarily for raising millions for charity.
And two heads of government, unless I'm mistaken. Meeting them tends to come with the job of being head of government.

Do better.

[Tubby Isaacs]

But hey, I'm sure PM Corbyn will sort the Middle East out with his "talking". Just like he'd have sorted out Northern Ireland if he'd been PM in 1984. And he'd have sorted out the post-Cold War environment by telling Poland it had to sit there like a buffer zone in case Russia got offended.

[ephemerid]

Good Afternoon,

I have been away for a week or so on a trip to Bohemia so did not contribute or even lurk.

I was on one of those tours frequented by a demographic (of a certain age, comfortably off) that are not usually deemed to be sympathetic to the left in politics. During our time together discussions inevitably turned to the state of the nation. It surprised me to find that their was a general goodwill to the centre left (make up your own definition) but that what people voted for it May was not generally policies but competence. Although some Labour proposals (Non Doms,Energy, Rail) were deemed to be popular the party came over as less than competent. This seemed to be more of a reason people did not vote for them that the Miliband is weird meme. They did not want some weak version of what we have now they want a party that give a strongly differential view and fights that corner from conviction. In short they want choice.

It was clear that although these people were interested in politics they got their knowledge overwhelmingly, not unnaturally from the fourth estate. In general however they are unaware of the political persuasion and/or connections of contributors.One, seemingly intelligent man, thought Danny Finkelstein was pretty independent of thought!This is one area where, in my view, the party whoever is elected leader needs a root and branch review of its attitude to the press in general.

As long as the written press portray incompetents like Gove, Osborne and May as political geniuses then Labour will struggle. As long as Sycophants such as Stig Abel and Tom Newton Dunn ignore the lies and mistruths of IDS and adopt a sneering,patronising attitude to anything involving the left then the left will have a problem. As long as Simon Danzcuk continues to rake in a significant income from media unsympathetic to the left by giving his pretty unrepresentative views then there will be a view of Labour as a set of incompetents.Compare and contrast the treatment of Cameron struggling with a tube of Pringles to the treatment of Miliband and the bacon sandwich.

This area is one of many (but probably more important than most) where I believe Labour has to make a break from its recent past. Andy, Yvette and Liz seem incapable of firstly introducing any charisma to or enthusiasm from the general public.Their policies seemed to be hitched to the current accepted narrative and this includes accepting the press as some sort indicator as to how the general public think. The media are an important vehicle but not the be all and end all. Rarely do they reflect public opinion but tend to influence to the benefit of their owners interests. Until and unless the left take on the press in a sensible, constructive manner they will always be losers.

So in this election I am not looking for a PM.I am not sure Corbyn wants to be PM but he needs to be a the centre of the party's reconstruction based on the grassroots reaction. By the way McTernans observation that the grassroots should be ignored was a disgrace and indicative of the need for change. I know five years is not long but, again in my view, the party needs to understand what it stands for and how it will get to a stage where it is looking for a future PM. AB,YC,LC are not looking to or even capable of this. If this means some people will leave so be it I am sure others will come along. There are candidates that did not stand in this election that will develop and grow to potential leaders in the next few years but first the party needs to find its heart again.

So its Corbyn and Creasey for me.

I am sure some on here will disagree, that is your prerogative.

Edited to actually add the comment I'd intended to write......

That, Scarlet Gas, is a splendid post.

(I wish I'd written it)

[rebeccariots2]

David Hencke retweeted
Peter Jukes ‏@peterjukes 53m53 minutes ago
"Why Labour's patronising grandees have driven people to vote for Stormin' Corbyn" https://www.byline.com/column/22/article/270" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … by @davidhencke

[rebeccariots2]

Anne Begg retweeted
Jade Azim ‏@JadeFrancesAzim 2h2 hours ago
I can't wait to pick the next Green Party leader

I like the cut of her jib. (What is a jib?)

[rebeccariots2]

Ed looks good with a beard - IMO.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Osborne copping it from private care home providers.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... es-osborne" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You don't have to think these companies are wonderful (or that they even should be involved at all) to recognize that eye-catching increases in the minimum wage are going to cause problems for government budgets.

[yahyah]

So My ballot papers came this morning.
Haven't been sure whether I would even bother to vote and if I did who would be the beneficiary.

This morning I chose Corbyn. Watson. No second choices. Sod giving my support to someone whose views differ from mine.

Have had nothing at all from Kendall.

Watson has been the only candidate for Deputy to ring me and send literature. Indeed, Watson has been the only one to ring me out of all the candidates, so he got my vote. We'll need that sort of organising skill in 2020.

& my husband sent him an email about his manifesto and Watson sent him a personal reply from his own phone. OK, he wants to be elected, but engaging with, and listening to Labour members has got to be a plus.

[RogerOThornhill]

Osborne copping it from private care home providers.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... es-osborne" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You don't have to think these companies are wonderful (or that they even should be involved at all) to recognize that eye-catching increases in the minimum wage are going to cause problems for government budgets.

It's all about putting one over the opposition and not thinking through the consequences.

[LadyCentauria]

How many want coffee with their carrot cake?
How many for tea?

Think I'll have a coffee, for a change. Milky, please, but no sugar. I love carrot cake

[AngryAsWell]

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras resigns forcing snap election

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... as-6287762" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yahyah]

Am feeling more chipper after a day out.

Picked up a wonderful 1970 Osbert Lancaster cartoons book for £1 at the Borth station museum.
Fans of Hinterland will remember it was where a psychopath lived in one of the episodes.

The Lancaster cartoons are fabulous, and a throwback to the times, lots of mention of middle class youngsters being Trots and BBC school sex education shocking the nation.

But, just to show there's now't new in politics, the cartoon from 6/7/1970 shows two portly Tory lord types, top hats, spats, fat cigars.

One is saying to the other ''So I said to the polls fella you can put me down as an under twenty five who thinks Harold Wilson's doin' a splendid job - and d'you know he did''

Does anyone remember what was going on then ?
Were political polls new, I wonder.