Wednesday 7th October 2015

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 1:41 pm

Maybe it was the alcohol at our friend's birthday do last night, but when discussing all this stuff more than one of us started to wonder whether the Parliamentary road to socialism was just an impossible dream, and what the implications of that were.

If fifty and sixty years olds are starting to feel that then times may become interesting.
We are supposed to be turning right wing as we get older, or so the perceived wisdom goes.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 1:43 pm

For the avoidance of all doubt, the Nasty Party are back, Teresa May cheer leading.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 1:44 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:It is being rebutted already, I think Labour instinctively sense Cam went too far on this one and it could actually make some people think better of JC.
I think the rebuttal is rather weak as it stands. They should be addressing it far more aggressively and in principle not just complaining about personal attacks.

I agree with you on this bit.

David Cameron should be being held to account by Labour on behalf of the country, rather than in narrow Party and personality terms. The response so far is introspective - and may well appear to be based on hurt feelings.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 1:46 pm

Good afternoon everyone

On the ebooks debate I am a fan of books in general. The ebooks in no way replace books in the large but they do replace some of the novels and 'one-time' reads I have.

Also, as I live abroad it gives me access to a lot of English language books that I would not be able to get - the ability to go on holiday and not carry them as well helps. I am a voracious reader and can get through a book a day when away so it is a real benefit

Both formats can co-exist

The danger for paper books though is if the medium of reading them improves. Ebook readers are great for text only books but there is nothing to replace anything with pictures. Tablets don't do it

I hope the publishing industry is a bit wiser though than the music industry was when it came to emusic. The iPod hit and destroyed the CD industry rapidly even though the mp3 had been around for a while. There are still people who preferer CD, and vinyl (my personal favourite) but we are now in the minority

One day a medium will come out that will replace the paper book I am sure.....I just hope the industry understands that and adapts to ensure that we can maintain the paper book at the same time embracing any new technology in a suitable way

I have just got back from the dentists. My tooth root had cracked under a bridge. As I live in Switzerland, no NHS here, the words 'Swiss Provate Dentist' are fearful to hear. Also, dental insurance is much more difficult to get than health insurance - there is no obligation to provide it (all insurance companies must provide a basic health insurance and the price is controlled, it is the supplementary that costs a lot)

I must say though, although the treatment is expensive, it is apparently on a par if not a bit cheaper than private dentistry in the UK (possibly due to the lack of a NHS fallback) and I had fantastic care from a Brazilian dentist. The wonder of immigration. Both of us conversing in French.

Off to China with work tomorrow and back for my next appointment chez le dentiste next week for a decision on what to do next....

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 1:48 pm

Dan HodgesVerified account
‏@DPJHodges
David Cameron is now the leader of the British left.

I know we are not supposed to engage in abuse under JC's leadership

but the temptation to post the wanker emoticon is proving very hard to resist.

He's no better than Katie Hopkins.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 1:51 pm

PorFavor wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:It is being rebutted already, I think Labour instinctively sense Cam went too far on this one and it could actually make some people think better of JC.
I think the rebuttal is rather weak as it stands. They should be addressing it far more aggressively and in principle not just complaining about personal attacks.
I agree with you on this bit.

David Cameron should be being held to account by Labour on behalf of the country, rather than in narrow Party and personality terms. The response so far is introspective - and may well appear to be based on hurt feelings.

Someone should call him a liar in the HoC and get chucked out. Then the media will be a bit interested. It is not difficult to find an example of where he has lied or misrepresented the truth

He does it all the time

The man has no moral compass - makes him much worse than Thatcher in my view. In another life he would be a criminal. He seems to be one of those sociopaths that make it to senior positions - Nixon and Clinton also spring to mind in that description

It is very easy to be taken in by these type of conmen if not paying attention - and most voters don't

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 2:10 pm

As TE hinted at earlier (or last night) Cameron's good fortune has been that he hasn't really had to deal with "events", which will surely find him out.

The one big thing he has had to preside over was the Indy Ref - my word he was close to personal disaster then.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 2:20 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34465963" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jeremy Corbyn: David Cameron's attack shows he's rattled

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 2:26 pm

danesclose wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:Michael Gove accusing Andrew Neill of showboating. I must be dreaming!
Hi Utopian,
You need this:

http://games.usvsth3m.com/slap-michael-gove/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, danesclose.I had spotted that last night but not really necessary after watching Andrew Neill lay into him. Until that point I must admit to being somewhat stunned by Cameron's interpretation of the realities of modern Britain finished off with... I lost count of his 'I believe's. Not one of his itemised selections are remedied by Tory governance but exacerbated by them. 'And then there was Gove! I burst out laughing at his showboating accusation and then doubly so when Andrew said how much he'd enjoyed it and invited him back.

As for party delegates leaving the hall, even Heseltine, commenting on how great was Dave's speech, they really must inhabit another universe 'cause it ain't the one I live in. 'And before I forget, did I hear Cameron speaking of mathematics and computer coding? Yeah, I fucking did!

Please tell me, somebody please, wtf does he know about them? The tears are streaming, but I really shouldn't laugh, I should be shedding a few for those that Dave has turned his back on.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 2:34 pm

Susie Boniface, AKA Fleet Street Fox, translates Cameron's speech:

I am so proud to be standing in front of you today – back in government, and not just any government – a truly bloody awful government that doesn’t give a toss about anyone else!

[pause for applause]

To the people in my party, I want to say thank you. And to the British people, I want to say: You can all get f***ed.

That’s if Gideon hasn’t f***ed you already, in which case you can get f***ed some more, join the queue, and then if you’re very lucky get f***ed all over again.

We don’t call him the Iron Chancellor for nothing, you know!

[pause for menopausal giggling]

I don’t know about you but it takes only two words to make me smile – “another holiday”. And having enjoyed several in the past few weeks there’s something I’d like to say.

From the windows of various hotels and mansions I see a Britain that is decent, sensible, reasonable. It’s green and there’s lovely trees and everyone works hard and you can’t see the poor even if you squint.

Let me put it as simply as I can: my Britain and your Britain are not the same thing. And nor is Twitter.

That’s why I’m constantly on Twitter telling it how hard I’m working, which is funny because being on Twitter technically means I’m not working at all.

Britain wants good jobs, a decent home, better childcare, an NHS that’s there for them, great schools, dignity in retirement – that is what people want, and it’s what we’ve got very good at promising them while totally failing to deliver.

Britain voted for a government that says it supports the vulnerable, but instead screws them over.

It wasn’t just me who put growing inequality, overlooking human rights abuses, state-sponsored murder, selling off the Post Office and crass hypocrisy at the heart of our mission – we all did.

And look what we’ve achieved.

I’ve now got the brass neck to praise economic migrants who became my MPs just 24 hours after agreeing with my Home Secretary who said such people are breaking Britain in two.

I’ve got the number of faces necessary to sack thousands of service men and women, deny them full pensions and ignore the Military Covenant and then welcome an army veteran to my party.

Oh, and a postman. Apparently he didn’t go to Eton but then neither did Gideon!

[pause for laughter]

My first role as Prime Minister is to keep everyone safe. That’s why I bombed some of our citizens in Syria and said child sexual abuse was a conspiracy.

And there's more ...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wo ... nt-6590195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 2:40 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34465963

Jeremy Corbyn: David Cameron's attack shows he's rattled

Mmm. Would like to see something punchier, but on reflection Cameron being rattled because of the Corbyn effect is exactly what is needed. And we mustn't forget it's far more than we could have expected after losing in May.

Cameron gets reckless when he's upset, his speech today proved it, but that's where it falls apart. We need a press that will investigate and fairly report the lies. We see the odd snippet which raises hopes the tide has turned, but they will only go so far before they revert to Labour bashing. The owners have far too much to lose.

I Tweeted that he's been allowed to get away with so much. Years ago he'd have been out on his ear. I think the numbers that turned out over the weekend have to be what Labour builds on.

It must be beyond most politicians dreams to address a gathering of 8,000 people. Corbyn did it.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 2:47 pm

@nickyinnorfolk

I quite like Tory Story too, nicky. Which reminds me when he spoke of those 64 positions and just as I was thinking of his 65th there was the screen shot of Sam. I'm not sure we had quite the same things on our minds. Mind you I should be grateful for small mercies, I'd rather not live with her mental images.

Edit: apologies - was addressed to wrong person

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 2:51 pm

At least he didn't drag his little son into his speech this year. I suppose we have to be grateful for small mercies...

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 2:54 pm

ohsocynical wrote:At least he didn't drag his little son into his speech this year. I suppose we have to be grateful for small mercies...

Maybe not, ohso, but that poor drowned refugee lad instead just to demonstrate the 'tough' choices he has to make. Bad enough using your own but to choose another's, beyond despicable!

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 3:15 pm

Pants on fire strikes again

David Cameron's 'new convert' Bernard Harris has voted Tory since 1987

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/da ... rd-6590565" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 3:25 pm

Just caught a link from Andrew Sparrow to Kevin Maguire's article, David Cameron is the VW of politics - a masterclass in deception (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/da ... ar_twitter).

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 3:32 pm

nickyinnorfolk wrote:Susie Boniface, AKA Fleet Street Fox, translates Cameron's speech:

Britain wants good jobs, a decent home, better childcare, an NHS that’s there for them, great schools, dignity in retirement – that is what people want, and it’s what we’ve got very good at promising them while totally failing to deliver.
And there's more ...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wo ... nt-6590195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just that bit is all that's needed, really.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 3:38 pm

"Iain Duncan Smith blames 9/11 attacks for helping ruin his career as Tory leader"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ia ... ar_twitter

: ScreenShot00849.jpg (98.79 KiB) Viewed 6752 times

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 3:40 pm

Nothing to do with attacks from his own side on how useless he was then

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/pers ... st-go.html

: ScreenShot00847.jpg (70.58 KiB) Viewed 6747 times

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 3:42 pm

Which led to him losing a no confidence vote http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3225127.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot00848.jpg (78.44 KiB) Viewed 6742 times

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 3:53 pm

@TobyLatimer

Re the Iain Smith thing -

He's a class act, isn't he? Remind me - how many people died purely to bugger up his career prospects?I'm assuming he "believes" they were all in it, too.

I'm noTony Blair fan, and maybe he did "milk it" - but this is really tasteless. (Must confess to not having read the full article.)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 3:57 pm

Leadership flop Iain Duncan Smith has blamed the 9/11 atrocities for his failed bid to be Prime Minister.
The top Tory made the claim as he launched an extraordinary attack on Tony Blair...

More than 100 Tory activists applauded Mr Duncan Smith's comments at a packed fringe meeting at their party conference.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ia ... ar_twitter

(my emphasis)

Wow, over one-hundred, that's mega, that is!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 3:59 pm

Fresh from a speech celebrating welfare cuts , he claimed Mr Blair's focus on foreign policy contributed to his failure to get a foothold as party chief in 2001.

"The day before I got elected the twin towers were struck," he told the crowd last night. "So first of all we got no lift on my announcement. It had to be buried the following day, hardly anybody was paying attention.

I kid you not.
Oh, my god.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:05 pm

Really good response to Cameron's speech from Tim Farron. Pity it's completely ruined by the fact the Libdems spent the last 5 years helping Cameron do many of the things they are now complaining about:

The prime minister’s apparent 11th hour conversion to social justice is welcome but it will fool no one.

If you want to understand this Tory government you have to look at what they have done and not the promises of a seasoned PR man.

This, after all, is from a government that has already scrapped the child poverty target, demonised refugees, cut benefits for asylum seekers and slashed housing benefit for large families.

It is the most extraordinary chutzpah for Mr Cameron to claim to be a poverty champion at the same time he is picking the pockets of the very poorest workers by slashing their tax credits.

The prime minister might spin a decent line about prison reform too but this is from a party that banned prisoners’ reading books.

And if he was really concerned about racial discrimination he would publicly denounce his home secretary’s shameful attack on immigrants yesterday.

The Liberal Democrats welcome the prime minister’s change of tone but it has to be backed up by actions – not just easy words.

Labour should be coming out with good counter points like these. If Corbyn can't get out a quick, effective response like Farron and Farage have on the Guardian's live blog he'll become as good as invisible.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:12 pm

Poor choice of words about his policy announcement being buried the day after the loss of all those people were buried under the rubble in New York

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:24 pm

@TobyLatimer

Is somebody suggesting that losing his premiership of the Tory Party was the real tragedy, Toby?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:37 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:"Iain Duncan Smith blames 9/11 attacks for helping ruin his career as Tory leader"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ia ... ar_twitter

ScreenShot00849.jpg

And he wouldn't have? [We really need a snort with disbelief smiley]

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:39 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Fresh from a speech celebrating welfare cuts , he claimed Mr Blair's focus on foreign policy contributed to his failure to get a foothold as party chief in 2001.

"The day before I got elected the twin towers were struck," he told the crowd last night. "So first of all we got no lift on my announcement. It had to be buried the following day, hardly anybody was paying attention.
I kid you not.
Oh, my god.

I can be as cynical about the Tories as the next sentient being but that completely floors me. On the day that Cameron has sunk to the level he has, Smith has contrived to make his leader appear an example of shining nobility.

His tongue should be torn out at the roots so that that mind never speaks another thought aloud.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:39 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:Poor choice of words about his policy announcement being buried the day after the loss of all those people were buried under the rubble in New York

And there it is. The complete and utter selfishness of the Tories. Me, me, me.

Edited to add...And from that little snippet, you sort of know he's carrying a lot of bitterness and resentment.

I do honestly wonder what that man's soul looks like.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:41 pm

In this country the chancellor deemed it OK to park in a disabled spot while nipping in to McDonalds,. In Russia they use holograms to warn others from doing so

This Looks Like a Handicap Spot. And It Is. But Try to Park In It and… Pure Genius!

http://omeleto.com/216671/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:41 pm

@RobertSnozers

I was referring to the fact there is no quote from Corbyn, rather than nothing from Labour, and what there was from Labour wasn't, in my view, very effective anyway. Perhaps if Labour had stuck with the difference between what Cameron said and what he has done, rather than the "he must be scared of Labour" stuff which doesn't work for me at all. I'm sorry but it sounds like the sort of thing a child would come out with in the playground.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:47 pm

Willow904 wrote:@RobertSnozers

I was referring to the fact there is no quote from Corbyn, rather than nothing from Labour, and what there was from Labour wasn't, in my view, very effective anyway. Perhaps if Labour had stuck with the difference between what Cameron said and what he has done, rather than the "he must be scared of Labour" stuff which doesn't work for me at all. I'm sorry but it sounds like the sort of thing a child would come out with in the playground.

Cameron isn't rattled by Corbyn. He is the gift from heaven, because no matter how badly Cameron screws up barring an absolute total scandal they are going to get re-elected with a huge majority.

This is a cynical attempt to exploit the centre left ground vacated by Corbyn, but it is an attempt because Labour have given him an opening.

Cameron's only problem now is Europe, because even if the economy slows down the experience of 92 suggests people won't trust Corbyn to run it (kinnock lost in part because people were so strapped for cash to stay in their homes they didn't think they could risk a change).

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 4:51 pm

utopiandreams wrote:@TobyLatimer

Is somebody suggesting that losing his premiership of the Tory Party was the real tragedy, Toby?

Yes, it comes across as a "poor me" whine.

"I could have been great if it wasn't for everyone else ignoring me because of a major tragedy"

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:00 pm

This is bloody brilliant.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/man ... ixMZAAkw3y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:14 pm

@AngryAsWell

Lovely to see you back in these parts.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:15 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Willow904 wrote:@RobertSnozers

I was referring to the fact there is no quote from Corbyn, rather than nothing from Labour, and what there was from Labour wasn't, in my view, very effective anyway. Perhaps if Labour had stuck with the difference between what Cameron said and what he has done, rather than the "he must be scared of Labour" stuff which doesn't work for me at all. I'm sorry but it sounds like the sort of thing a child would come out with in the playground.
Cameron isn't rattled by Corbyn. He is the gift from heaven, because no matter how badly Cameron screws up barring an absolute total scandal they are going to get re-elected with a huge majority.

This is a cynical attempt to exploit the centre left ground vacated by Corbyn, but it is an attempt because Labour have given him an opening.

Cameron's only problem now is Europe, because even if the economy slows down the experience of 92 suggests people won't trust Corbyn to run it (kinnock lost in part because people were so strapped for cash to stay in their homes they didn't think they could risk a change).

I don't think Cameron's rattled either. He's in danger of laughing himself to death.

I wonder though- how does it look if Corbyn steps down, having refreshed the Labour Party, as very much needed to happen? I mean steps down, on his own terms, not pushed out, because I don't think Corbyn himself imagines becoming the oldest PM since the (special case) Churchill.

Hugo reckoned "party of Corbyn" would stick. I'm not so sure.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:22 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Willow904 wrote:@RobertSnozers

I was referring to the fact there is no quote from Corbyn, rather than nothing from Labour, and what there was from Labour wasn't, in my view, very effective anyway. Perhaps if Labour had stuck with the difference between what Cameron said and what he has done, rather than the "he must be scared of Labour" stuff which doesn't work for me at all. I'm sorry but it sounds like the sort of thing a child would come out with in the playground.
Cameron isn't rattled by Corbyn. He is the gift from heaven, because no matter how badly Cameron screws up barring an absolute total scandal they are going to get re-elected with a huge majority.

This is a cynical attempt to exploit the centre left ground vacated by Corbyn, but it is an attempt because Labour have given him an opening.

Cameron's only problem now is Europe, because even if the economy slows down the experience of 92 suggests people won't trust Corbyn to run it (kinnock lost in part because people were so strapped for cash to stay in their homes they didn't think they could risk a change).

What is this 'centre-left' ground that Corbyn has vacated?

Most of his policies would fit into a centre-left (although more left than centre) - the nonsense that Cameron spouts, Corbyn has believed in for years. Equality, anti-discrimination and concern for the poor. The difference is Corbyn believes in them

The ones that Cameron is right on are probably what I would call right-wing policies anyway - SECURITY (which seems to be pro-nuclear bombs), PATRIOTISM (i.e. he knows the words to the fucking dirge we have to listen to which apparently 'represents' my country) and MODERNISM (i.e. neoliberalism)

You also forget that CAMERON IS LYING - he doesn't believe in helping the poor or down-trodden. Corbyn hasn't abandoned them at all.

I agree with Anatoly (hardly a Corbynist when he said yesterday that your Corbyn hatred seems to be clouding your posts - and yes I did read your reply). You just seem to spout the same stuff that I hear Tories say

It is not the Labour Party's fault that the PM is a sociopath

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:25 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Willow904 wrote:@RobertSnozers

I was referring to the fact there is no quote from Corbyn, rather than nothing from Labour, and what there was from Labour wasn't, in my view, very effective anyway. Perhaps if Labour had stuck with the difference between what Cameron said and what he has done, rather than the "he must be scared of Labour" stuff which doesn't work for me at all. I'm sorry but it sounds like the sort of thing a child would come out with in the playground.
Cameron isn't rattled by Corbyn. He is the gift from heaven, because no matter how badly Cameron screws up barring an absolute total scandal they are going to get re-elected with a huge majority.

This is a cynical attempt to exploit the centre left ground vacated by Corbyn, but it is an attempt because Labour have given him an opening.

Cameron's only problem now is Europe, because even if the economy slows down the experience of 92 suggests people won't trust Corbyn to run it (kinnock lost in part because people were so strapped for cash to stay in their homes they didn't think they could risk a change).
I don't think Cameron's rattled either. He's in danger of laughing himself to death.

I wonder though- how does it look if Corbyn steps down, having refreshed the Labour Party, as very much needed to happen? I mean steps down, on his own terms, not pushed out, because I don't think Corbyn himself imagines becoming the oldest PM since the (special case) Churchill.

Hugo reckoned "party of Corbyn" would stick. I'm not so sure.

He is not rattled because he knows he has the press in his pocket, the neoliberal wing of the Labour Party supports his draconian policies and that he does not do empathy.

He doesn't care what anyone thinks and he can just ignore those that don't agree with him

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:34 pm

@RobertSnozer @ TechnicalEphemera @Tubby Isaacs

Thanks for all your responses. I'm trying to be positive about Corbyn, but Labour's response to Cameron's speech today disappointed me. I felt my party didn't express my feelings about Cameron's speech anywhere near strongly enough and Corbyn felt absent as leader of that party. I want to be optimistic, but when a Libdem can better articulate how I feel about the Tories than Labour, that's a real problem.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:39 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Willow904 wrote:@RobertSnozers

I was referring to the fact there is no quote from Corbyn, rather than nothing from Labour, and what there was from Labour wasn't, in my view, very effective anyway. Perhaps if Labour had stuck with the difference between what Cameron said and what he has done, rather than the "he must be scared of Labour" stuff which doesn't work for me at all. I'm sorry but it sounds like the sort of thing a child would come out with in the playground.
Cameron isn't rattled by Corbyn. He is the gift from heaven, because no matter how badly Cameron screws up barring an absolute total scandal they are going to get re-elected with a huge majority.

This is a cynical attempt to exploit the centre left ground vacated by Corbyn, but it is an attempt because Labour have given him an opening.

Cameron's only problem now is Europe, because even if the economy slows down the experience of 92 suggests people won't trust Corbyn to run it (kinnock lost in part because people were so strapped for cash to stay in their homes they didn't think they could risk a change).
I don't think Cameron's rattled either. He's in danger of laughing himself to death.

I wonder though- how does it look if Corbyn steps down, having refreshed the Labour Party, as very much needed to happen? I mean steps down, on his own terms, not pushed out, because I don't think Corbyn himself imagines becoming the oldest PM since the (special case) Churchill.

Hugo reckoned "party of Corbyn" would stick. I'm not so sure.

Can you imagine Cameron trying the "Britain-hating" rhetoric with someone like Dan Jarvis or Keir Starmer?

Once the buzz has died down and the reality of life kicks in I can see this speech as being ultimately shallow and not backed up by facts on the ground.

I asked elsewhere - did Hunt actually speak? Presumably he must have been asked to keep it low-key. Don't recall a single thing being said about it.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:41 pm

Willow904 wrote:@RobertSnozer @ TechnicalEphemera @Tubby Isaacs

Thanks for all your responses. I'm trying to be positive about Corbyn, but Labour's response to Cameron's speech today disappointed me. I felt my party didn't express my feelings about Cameron's speech anywhere near strongly enough and Corbyn felt absent as leader of that party. I want to be optimistic, but when a Libdem can better articulate how I feel about the Tories than Labour, that's a real problem.

There is no point in responding....you may like Farron's response but it will get no coverage. As said above anything he does say will be twisted by the media

People are not listening to politics at the moment - the public is turned off by it all and the only real response is to say bluntly he is a liar...because he is

The only thing that can derail the Tories is that Labour can reenergise the left over the next couple of years and that Cameron and Osborne are caught out by events

There are a lot of people who want the Labour Party to again tack to the right to the Tory's agenda.....this cannot happen

Silence may actually not be a bad policy at the moment

Let us see how things are in 2018 post EU referendum - that is the point when things get interesting

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:45 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: Cameron isn't rattled by Corbyn. He is the gift from heaven, because no matter how badly Cameron screws up barring an absolute total scandal they are going to get re-elected with a huge majority.

This is a cynical attempt to exploit the centre left ground vacated by Corbyn, but it is an attempt because Labour have given him an opening.

Cameron's only problem now is Europe, because even if the economy slows down the experience of 92 suggests people won't trust Corbyn to run it (kinnock lost in part because people were so strapped for cash to stay in their homes they didn't think they could risk a change).
I don't think Cameron's rattled either. He's in danger of laughing himself to death.

I wonder though- how does it look if Corbyn steps down, having refreshed the Labour Party, as very much needed to happen? I mean steps down, on his own terms, not pushed out, because I don't think Corbyn himself imagines becoming the oldest PM since the (special case) Churchill.

Hugo reckoned "party of Corbyn" would stick. I'm not so sure.

Can you imagine Cameron trying the "Britain-hating" rhetoric with someone like Dan Jarvis or Keir Starmer?

Once the buzz has died down and the reality of life kicks in I can see this speech as being ultimately shallow and not backed up by facts on the ground.

I asked elsewhere - did Hunt actually speak? Presumably he must have been asked to keep it low-key. Don't recall a single thing being said about it.

I can imagine him trying

Remember the John Kerry attacks in the US.....these people have no shame

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 5:53 pm

Over four and a half years is a long time.
For what my opinion is worth, I'm not disappointed with Labour response to Cameron's speech.
I'd tell you if I were.
I don't mind being cross with the Labour party if there's a problem.
The Tory party haven't made any new friends today.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:08 pm

What a lot of doubters.

Despite the press not jumping on Cameron:

60,000 + on Sunday's march consisting of dozens of different protest groups including the Green Party.

1,500 inside Manchester Cathedral to hear him speak right on the Tories doorstep, and 6,500 outside who turned up to hear him speak.

Thousands of new members since he became leader a MONTH ago.

And BTW.

Where were the Shadow cabinet and the Blairites over such an important weekend?

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:17 pm

Perhaps it should be borne in mind that the press and bulletins will be full of sycophantic bullshit. Tomorrow is the start of 'politics as normal' again.

Teggies now fixed if anyone cares. Look!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:18 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:@RobertSnozer @ TechnicalEphemera @Tubby Isaacs

Thanks for all your responses. I'm trying to be positive about Corbyn, but Labour's response to Cameron's speech today disappointed me. I felt my party didn't express my feelings about Cameron's speech anywhere near strongly enough and Corbyn felt absent as leader of that party. I want to be optimistic, but when a Libdem can better articulate how I feel about the Tories than Labour, that's a real problem.
There is no point in responding....you may like Farron's response but it will get no coverage. As said above anything he does say will be twisted by the media

People are not listening to politics at the moment - the public is turned off by it all and the only real response is to say bluntly he is a liar...because he is

The only thing that can derail the Tories is that Labour can reenergise the left over the next couple of years and that Cameron and Osborne are caught out by events

There are a lot of people who want the Labour Party to again tack to the right to the Tory's agenda.....this cannot happen

Silence may actually not be a bad policy at the moment

Let us see how things are in 2018 post EU referendum - that is the point when things get interesting

Cameron has been pushing through far right policies, yet is now trying to claim a "middle ground" on the back of empty lies about wanting "equality" and tackling poverty. It feels to me that Labour can't be bothered to call him out on it. Farron and Farage were ready to hit back at Cameron's lies today, because they are professionals. Labour's response felt amateurish and that worries me. 2018 will be too late. If Labour lose Wales, if they can't regain London next year, that's hundreds of thousands of people suffering local Tory mismanagement and an opportunity to prove Labour have the ability to govern down the pan. Whatever Corbyn feels he needs to do to introduce a "new politics", I don't see why he can't do so in addition to some good old fashioned opposition.
As for saying bluntly that Tories lie, Tristram Hunt has done so very effectively when interviewed on the BBC, it's one of the reasons I like him.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:22 pm

Radio 4's PM was like a Cameron love fest.

Norman Smith seemed close to spontaneously orgasming.
''Our wonderful compassionate Cameron is back' swoon swoon.

Buy shares in anti-nausea pills, there'll be a lot sold in the next four years.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:26 pm

@willow

A regular Welsh poll for ITV showed Labour up 5% at Westminster, up 4% for the Welsh Assembly constituency & 2% on the regional lists.
That's before the tax credit cut has started biting.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:26 pm

Incidentally, where on earth is Cameron going to get all these inspectors of madraasas, Sunday schools and the like?

Ofsted are really stretched now which is why they're cutting back on inspections and inspectors - have they the capacity to take on even more work?

Also, I would guess that for the Muslim and Jewish faiths, their books will be in Arabic and Hebrew - good luck in finding inspectors who can read those well enough to be able to tell whether they're 'extremist' or not.

This'll be another one which falls apart when someone decides to examine it critically. Or quietly shelved.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 6:36 pm

Did they spend so much on the new Independent site they can't afford journalists to update the web pages ?