Mon 26 Oct, 2015

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 5:49 pm

Interesting. Is this right?

Lady Smith, the Labour leader in the Lords, says that when the Tax Credit Act was passed in 2002, it was made clear that that was not subject to financial privilege. (These tax credit changes are being introduced under secondary legislation allowed under the 2002 Act.)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 5:52 pm

Crikey, it's relatively heated in there.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 5:54 pm

Excellent from the Archbishop of York there.

Says how we're told that Osborne's "considering" changes. Let's pause things while he does that.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 5:57 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Here comes Lord Butler.

I don't like him. Tory masquerading as a Crossbencher.

Note how he said statutory instruments have been defeated only 5 times "since the war".

Or "3 times in only 15 years" as I'd put it.

Lord Richard now kicking his arse.
Or in other words, SIs have been defeated, so doing so now would not set a precedent, and five times, so not a one-off.

Yeah, he was padding his speech out there.

The nub seems to be the "primacy on finance" stuff. The 2008 precedent seems to be more important.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 5:59 pm

The Archbishop of York is going on a bit here about the Living Wage, because he chaired a group on it.

I wish he wouldn't. I am seriously sceptical that you can pay everyone over 25 £9.00 an hour without them losing hours or being replaced by younger people, or being put on apprenticeships.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:01 pm

Interesting. Norman Fowler made point that he brought in Family Credit in 1986, building on a policy of Keith Joseph.

But Gordo invented it because he was a mad loon!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:02 pm

Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire 2h2 hours ago
Tax credits are a £28bn redistribution to the lower paid and families with kids, That r-word is why Osborne really hates them

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:04 pm

The Archbishop of York is forgetting the T word. Thatcher.
No use quoting the far past, she changed things forever.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:05 pm

Dale Campbell-Savours again with the "Cameron lied".

Fowler saying that people approved the manifesto and must have known tax credits would be cut.

So they had to know Cameron, Gove and all were lying?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:06 pm

Fowler is much more dignified than most Tories of today but he's thrown in a couple of canards. The old "escalating" tax credits line.

Did Cameron only work out that they were escalating after the election?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:06 pm

As mentioned above -

Here is the key quote from Lord Campbell-Savours, the Labour peer, accusing David Cameron of lying about the planned tax credit cuts during the general election.

The British public would regard what he said now as a lie, a lie to win the general election. The British public are fed up with politicians who tell lies on that scale. It was a lie, it exceeded the misleading of the public in the case of the Liberal Democrats on tuition fees; at least they didn’t know what was going to come after the election where they misled the public. But in this particular case Mr Cameron did know. And they set out to avoid revealing the fact by hiding behind the statement that they would have to make substantial cuts. I believe that those lies trump all the constitutional niceties, whether they be financial privilege or the fatality of amendments ... The public cannot take this scale of lying. (Politics Live, Guardian)

He obviously didn't want anyone to miss the fact that we have a liar for PM!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:09 pm

PorFavor wrote:As mentioned above -

Here is the key quote from Lord Campbell-Savours, the Labour peer, accusing David Cameron of lying about the planned tax credit cuts during the general election.

The British public would regard what he said now as a lie, a lie to win the general election. The British public are fed up with politicians who tell lies on that scale. It was a lie, it exceeded the misleading of the public in the case of the Liberal Democrats on tuition fees; at least they didn’t know what was going to come after the election where they misled the public. But in this particular case Mr Cameron did know. And they set out to avoid revealing the fact by hiding behind the statement that they would have to make substantial cuts. I believe that those lies trump all the constitutional niceties, whether they be financial privilege or the fatality of amendments ... The public cannot take this scale of lying. (Politics Live, Guardian)
He obviously didn't want anyone to miss the fact that we have a liar for PM!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:13 pm

So in summary, it won't be too bad because George Osborne is going to mitigate it but he won't tell us, and we can't even ask him because he's in the other house anyway?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:14 pm

Evening all. Just recovering from Ikea. The dogs get the best deal out of such a journey - they get to stay in the vehicle while we struggle through hoardes of shrieking children and very large trolleys - and then they get a lovely long walk around Margam Park on the way home. Wave to letsskip as I remember her every time we go to Margam Park which is in her territory - hope all is well with you letsskip and miss you on FTN.

Now:

'Frankly I’m terrified': meet those set to be hit by tax credit cuts
With the government determined to push through planned tax credits cuts, we asked readers how they would be affected
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/o ... -to-be-hit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

None of these people look as though they will be helped by any of the 'in the round' package the Tories keep bleating on about so feebly.

Just what are Osborne and his fellow nasties (compassionate my arse) expecting such people to do to make up the shortfall in their incomes? I've not heard anything constructive. Some of these people are already working longer than an average working week - and some have caring responsibilities that flatly rule out increasing hours even if they could get them. What with this refusal to acknowledge the real hardship and suffering they are going to cause for many people through these cuts and Heseltine's crass statement about now being as good a time as any to lose your job ... do they really think anyone will buy the line that they are the party of the workers?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:16 pm

Is Mr Riots whipping up one of his culinary masterpieces for your birthday supper ?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:17 pm

Baroness Hayman is good.

Said she's glad to hear Osborne is thinking about the issue, but he'll consider it more if the Lords send it back.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:17 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:So in summary, it won't be too bad because George Osborne is going to mitigate it but he won't tell us, and we can't even ask him because he's in the other house anyway?

If they think they have given anyone any reason to 'trust' them when they won't spell out the detail on anything after the pre election 12 billion cuts to welfare but we won't tell you where except it won't be tax credits statements ... and then they do this. Well whoever falls for that again is a complete fool, living in a parallel universe or in the pay of Osborne in some way. Or all of those.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:18 pm

Meanwhile...in the Commons.

Laughable nonsense - it was because you had an airhead called Liz Truss in charge of it.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:19 pm

yahyah wrote:Is Mr Riots whipping up one of his culinary masterpieces for your birthday supper ?

Good grief no ... I don't want him anywhere near the cooker. I've got designs on a very splendid savoy cabbage and caraway seeds as key fixtures in my supper tonight.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:23 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Is Mr Riots whipping up one of his culinary masterpieces for your birthday supper ?
Good grief no ... I don't want him anywhere near the cooker. I've got designs on a very splendid savoy cabbage and caraway seeds as key fixtures in my supper tonight.

I forgot to say...happy Birthday!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:23 pm

Labour's Baroness Smith is good.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:24 pm

James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 24m24 minutes ago
Bit of optimism in govt circles that they might just squeak through in the Lords with regret motion passing but the other motions failing

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:25 pm

Wrong person....who was it and why don't the labels on the tv website work properly.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:29 pm

Jack of Kent ‏@JackofKent 53m53 minutes ago
Breaking: National Audit Office launch formal investigation into @MoJGovUK over "Just Solutions international"

This is the govt that has written out the need for civil servants to abide by international law ... this is the govt that want to opt out of the European Convention on Human Rights .... this is the govt that wants to be best buddies with China and not ask them any difficult questions.

I'd like to think Grayling's bum will be whipped over 'Just Solutions international' - but doubt it somehow.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:30 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Meanwhile...in the Commons.

Laughable nonsense - it was because you had an airhead called Liz Truss in charge of it.

They didn't notice that this childcare was unaffordable before the election then? Labour's awful legacy had temporarily disappeared from view?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:33 pm

yahyah wrote:Labour's Baroness Smith is good.

She is. She put Butler in his place there. She said it's absurd that what the Commons passed is regarded as sacrosanct when we're being told all the time that Osborne is going to mitigate what it decided!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:36 pm

I praised her before she actually spoke confusing her with someone else ! She is excellent.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:36 pm

Angela Smith was replaced as MP for Basildon by Stephen Metcalfe, who worked with Hunt on some leaks to make it look like Burnham had done a cover up.

Hunt promptly shut up when Burnham threatened legal action.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:40 pm

Earl Howe completely bullshitting here.

Apparently the IFS haven't considered the minimum wage rise and all that.

Baroness Meacher pointing that of course the IFS have considered all that.

Bingo! There's free childcare mentioned!

It doesn't exist.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:42 pm

Earl Howe is dying on his arse.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:44 pm

Baroness Kramer getting stuck in. Fair play.

She was a nasty rightwinger in the Coalition, but she's sharp on financial stuff, as she was on the PPP for London Underground, I think.

Shows again the genius of the Coalition. Basically lots of articulate critics became extra Tories.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:47 pm

Just opened a bit of post.

My brother has surpassed himself with his birthday card this year ...

Front reads:
'Happy Birthday and All the Best! David & Samantha Cameron

overlaying a picture of the simpering couple in front of the HoC.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:47 pm

Brandy ... where is the brandy?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:47 pm

Earl Howe doesn't just talk in cliches. They're what he actually sees.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 6:56 pm

Brilliant. Having done all the "it's about the constitution, ignore the rest" stuff Howe now says the Hollis amendment is fatal because she said she'd table a fatal amendement in the Huffington Post.

Labour are good in the Lords, on this evidence.

Could it be the difference with the Commons is that people aren't allowed to shout all the time while they speak?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:00 pm

Howe says the disability elements of tax credits are not being cut. They are being uprated with inflation. (Politics Live Guardian)

How does that counter-act the other reductions? Or am I being dense? The net amount would still be less. Wouldn't it? (I'm tired - so sorry if I'm being dim and lazy.)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:03 pm

And the rate of inflation?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:08 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Howe says the disability elements of tax credits are not being cut. They are being uprated with inflation. (Politics Live Guardian)
How does that counter-act the other reductions? Or am I being dense? The net amount would still be less. Wouldn't it? (I'm tired - so sorry if I'm being dim and lazy.)

Part of their "the IFS haven't looked at the whole picture" schtick.

He has a point that the net figure will be less than the figure just for tax credit cuts. But not by all that much.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:11 pm

Bit of useless ? information Lady Hollis has used threed word alliterations 1276 times in the Lords

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/peer/1321 ... numerology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:13 pm

Emily Thornberry Retweeted
Patrick Moûle ‏@patrickmoule 13m13 minutes ago
Patrick Moûle Retweeted Tom Newton Dunn
Imagine being the sort of person who would cross an ocean to make poorer the people who made you wealthy

Tom Newton DunnVerified account
‏@tnewtondunn
I hear Tory whips even persuaded Lord Lloyd Webber to fly back from New York for tonight's #taxcredits vote. Desperate, a touch.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:22 pm

Bit unfair on Lloyd Webber. The tax credit cuts were never going to be vetoed unless Baroness Manzoor's fatal motion passed. Which it got nowhere near doing.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:24 pm

The first amendment, to reject the tax credit cuts for good (the “fatal” one), has been defeated by 310 votes to 99 - a majority of 211.

From Sparrow's blog.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:25 pm

James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 1m1 minute ago
Manzoor motion, unsurprisingly, fails. Now, onto Meacher but government think biggest risk of defeat is on Hollis

steve hawkes ‏@steve_hawkes 3m3 minutes ago
Lib Dem fatal motion on tax credit cuts downed 99-310

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:26 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Bit unfair on Lloyd Webber. The tax credit cuts were never going to be vetoed unless Baroness Manzoor's fatal motion passed. Which it got nowhere near doing.

You've lost me Tubby. What is unfair on Lloyd Webber?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:26 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Bit unfair on Lloyd Webber. The tax credit cuts were never going to be vetoed unless Baroness Manzoor's fatal motion passed. Which it got nowhere near doing.

Bollocks is it unfair....he is flying across the Atlantic (at no doubt first class cost and environmental damage....) to vote with his bastard Tory mates.

I will come back to the point that Labour peers are always called such....how many know that Lloyd-Webber, like that incompetent CEO Dido, take the Tory whip?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:29 pm

Nicola Sturgeon ‏@NicolaSturgeon 1m1 minute ago
I'm no fan of the House of Lords but, if you are a Labour peer, why would you abstain in a vote to stop tax credit cuts?

Here we go.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:31 pm

Good-evening, everyone.
I'm a bit overwhelmed by the news and I'm late to the thread.
Gorgeous day here in Stoke; the sunshine was lovely.
I hope you and your loves are good.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:32 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Nicola Sturgeon ‏@NicolaSturgeon 1m1 minute ago
I'm no fan of the House of Lords but, if you are a Labour peer, why would you abstain in a vote to stop tax credit cuts?
Here we go.

Was she not listening....enough Labour peers explained why and, although a fatal motion is really appealing, it would be a tactical error

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:35 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Nicola Sturgeon ‏@NicolaSturgeon 1m1 minute ago
I'm no fan of the House of Lords but, if you are a Labour peer, why would you abstain in a vote to stop tax credit cuts?
Here we go.

She's a fan of not having a second chamber at all.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 7:37 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Bit unfair on Lloyd Webber. The tax credit cuts were never going to be vetoed unless Baroness Manzoor's fatal motion passed. Which it got nowhere near doing.
You've lost me Tubby. What is unfair on Lloyd Webber?

The Lords can't veto the tax credit cuts.

Don't rule out that The Sun has some beef with him.