Friday 6th.November 2015

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 1:08 pm

ephemerid wrote:Toby - thank you, thank you, thank you!
OGRPPFG with his pants/pig on fire is Da Troof and no mistake.

Ms.Riots - thanks again, saw this yesterday. The jobseeker in question doesn't say what his profession is, but he is evidently an educated and articulate individual - just the sort of person whose experience and opinions are sorely needed in this debate. It is assumed by many - including the likes of "Trisha" - that jobseekers are uniformly thick, fit only for crappy jobs (which is all UJM has to offer) and undeserving of their benefits.
The article also highlights how long people are having to wait for their first UC payment. Even if you have a straightforward JSA-only UC claim, the wait is (in theory) 5 to 6 weeks for the first 4 weeks'-worth of benefit; some people have had to wait for months due to complications with the housing element, and housing associations in the pilot areas have reported much higher rent arrears when their tenants claim UC.
Bearing in mind that UC was supposed to be paid to 1 Million people by April 2015, the timetable for roll-out is way behind. Again. Or is it again?

We've been saying for a long time here that DWP is a rogue department - the likes of "Trisha" seem to be everywhere; even savvy claimants like me have endless problems with payments etc.; and I can't see things improving any time soon.

Interesting factoid - Osborne is the first Chancellor ever to cut a benefit that nobody's getting.

We've only taken indirect hits, no social care, but next week one of mine has a PIP appeal, we don't think win, not because he shouldn't but because the treatment it took over twenty years to get has helped, he's been stable for a couple of years. Having space, a home, being able to pay bills have helped. He got a really good CPN some years back, she has gone now, lost to the cuts. If he loses his case he'll lose ESA , go on basic JSA, it won't cover bills, there will be arrears, its what people do to eat. He's been going through the system since February, its played havoc with his headstate. There is nothing left nto cut, his home will disappear, he will becomes sanction fodder. And this is happening to thousands and thousands. People too unwell to work, who can make it to assessment, where their very politeness and compliance will make them look ok when they really, really are not. I dont know what to do, it it goes the way we fear there isnt much help, the charity orgs are mostly all DRUKed up, and enablers of this stuff, CAB is stretched to the limit, no CPN, and a daily cost of about £15 quid minimum to get there and back to anywhere - which reminds me I must check thathe can get to the tribunal, close to me, but twenty five miles or away, thats going to cost. Politics shouldnt be doing things like this to people, we had a stable system that worked, and did what it was supposed to do. now we've got a country that is a whistle away from collapse.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 1:34 pm

@seeingclearly

I really hope things don't turn out as you anticipate. Wishing you and your son all the best.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 1:42 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:https://www.rt.com/uk/320928-child-abuse-mi6-dossier/
Former MI6 director ‘could be to blame’ for missing child abuse dossier – Labour MP
Not quite sure I understand how GK Young could be involved as according to wikipedia he left the service in 1961.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kennedy_Young" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He was a nasty piece of work though - involved in all kinds of far right groups.

G.K. (as he was popularly referred to) subsequently became Chairman of the Society for Individual Freedom. He was also an early and leading member of the Conservative Monday Club serving on several of its policy committees (Chairman of the Action Fund 1967-69), (Chairman, Economics Committee) and Executive Council. He was virulently opposed to immigration and helped found the club's immigration committee. After losing an acrimonious election for the position of club chairman to Jonathan Guinness in 1974 in which he had been supported by the British National Front,[1] he set up another far-right group called Tory Action.

In 1976, Young, assisted by Frederic Bennett, created the private army 'Unison.'[2]
He might well have been the model for the Uncle Jimmy character in Regional Perrin.

Think involvement must be through right-wing group,
headline made it sound like MI6 activity, sorry.

better in telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ys-MP.html

In Parliament Mr Mann described the Dickens dossier as "intriguing to say the least".
He said that a former deputy director of MI6, George Kennedy Young, was involved in a right-wing Conservative group which gathered details on alleged paedophiles within the Commons.
Young, also known as 'GK' who died in 1990, was not named as a paedophile but Mr Mann described him as a "manipulator" who had been involved in "dubious" political activities, including a campaign to set up a private army.
"We need to know why the file disappeared," Mr Mann said in a Westminster Hall debate.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 1:53 pm

Ed Balls has a cousin who has written a book on the great Stiff Records scene around 1976-77, and biographies on Ian Dury, Elvis Costello etc. I didn't realize he was Ed's cousin until after I bought one of the books and delved a little deeper. Richard Balls, a fine chap. I have to say that he has replied to me a few times on twitter. https://twitter.com/RichardBalls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:10 pm

Blood boiling...
Homeless charity earns agency £5.5m - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34743526" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" A letting agency has been paid more than £5.5m in housing benefit after its owner setup a charity to help the homeless, the BBC has learned. "

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:12 pm

yahyah wrote:Thanks for the update on Rinpoche SC.

I've spent an hour a day for the last four years reading Dharma texts and trying to practice meditation to develop bodhicitta. Constant grappling with Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka as well !

Developing compassion for those who are hurting so many is not easy.
But at least a point comes where one can experience the emptiness of the feelings and not just completely go with anger.

i thought I'd got all the edgy bits covered till this lot came along, I cant put them in my mandala or my heart because they are too disruptive, and create havoc. Things like standing with one of those bloody great Tibetan horns right behind IDS and sending him witless, or dressing Osbourne in Thatchers frock.

Mostly these days both me and they are exempted, because compassion alone doesn't move such things, you have to be proactive, which is bloody hard when you can't get out. So I make a big noise instead, but not in capitals. I miss time on the cushion, and in practice. dont let anyone tell you it can be done horizontally! I've slept through too many great teachings and only woken in time to dedicate! Clearly I need to do more.

Up close this stuff is too personal to set aside, and I wish I had Rowson at my elbow, but he's got his own wicked imagination to deal with. I lost someone very dear to the mad handbagging bats policies years ago. None of us really over it yet. It's having it return that gets me, every time.

I'll add someting that popped up this morning if I can, and hope for better for all.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:22 pm

Fallon, Hammond & Campigeron not going down well on RT

"Britain accused of withholding Sinai crash intel from Russia & Egypt"

Russia’s Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova said Britain’s failure to hand over its intelligence is “genuinely shocking.”

https://www.rt.com/uk/321045-sinai-cras ... ellegence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:31 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:https://www.rt.com/uk/320928-child-abuse-mi6-dossier/
Former MI6 director ‘could be to blame’ for missing child abuse dossier – Labour MP
Not quite sure I understand how GK Young could be involved as according to wikipedia he left the service in 1961.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kennedy_Young" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He was a nasty piece of work though - involved in all kinds of far right groups.

G.K. (as he was popularly referred to) subsequently became Chairman of the Society for Individual Freedom. He was also an early and leading member of the Conservative Monday Club serving on several of its policy committees (Chairman of the Action Fund 1967-69), (Chairman, Economics Committee) and Executive Council. He was virulently opposed to immigration and helped found the club's immigration committee. After losing an acrimonious election for the position of club chairman to Jonathan Guinness in 1974 in which he had been supported by the British National Front,[1] he set up another far-right group called Tory Action.

In 1976, Young, assisted by Frederic Bennett, created the private army 'Unison.'[2]
He might well have been the model for the Uncle Jimmy character in Regional Perrin.

Interesting because nearly all the allegations that come from non-victim testimony sources seem to originate with the BNP. I keep a very open mind on the topic because of that, and wish the focus was on damaged people, but they often seem to not really figure in any real way. Its fraught with difficulties in of course, especially with the ever increasing time scales, but when its tied up with people like this whose whole way of thinking covered several very unpleasant overlapping agendas, then you do tend to worry exactly where things are going.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:44 pm

Yeah, I noticed a strong racist angle to the "X is paedo" too. For instance, a certain well known non white media Tory has been the subject of them, which look immediately like utter bollocks.

sputnikkers · Post by **sputnikkers** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:45 pm

HindleA wrote:To be clear Labour were responsible for the transfer arrangements,it just took six years to happen.Still people that haven't been so.

I am interested to hear how your experience and views reflect my understanding of the 'facts' around the events of the replacement of IB with ESA. Although dating from 2008 I thought 'reassessments' were not piloted until 2010 in restricted areas before being due for nationwide adoption. The WCA itself was due for annual review over its first five years. The first report was in November 2010 by Sir Malcolm Harrington ( An Independent Review
of the Work Capability Assessment pdf) who was very critical and, as later reported (Universal credit is a tale of failure that’s still unfolding | Jonathan Portes | Comment is free | The Guardian ), recommended delaying the Spring 2011 roll-out until the problems had been addressed (successful appeals against WCA were already hitting 40% during the pilot?).

So yes, the use of ATOS, in particular, and lack of oversight and interaction with/care of clients by JCPs etc. was flawed, partly by design but that is the nature and risk of overhauling any system dealing with complex and diverse needs and replacing with an even more complex one - but potentially 'fairer' and just as 'generous' one. Whether or not in any counterfactual turn of events Labour would have listened to Harrington depends on our beliefs and views of whether Labour's 'obsession with managerialism' would prevail or if they would have wanted to plough on regardless to try to make cuts in expenditure, whatever the consequences and whatever the prospects of success of realising them.

Of course some of this can be traced back to "our own bullshit". Everybody 'knows' that Thatcher hid large amounts of unemployment by vastly increasing case loads of the various forms of disability and invalidity benefit - without also paying attention to the protections, potential benefits and the uncovering of the disconnect between problematic very short term sickness payments and longer term health-related problems. The ESA-WCA (debacle) has at least unveiled many poor assumptions throughout the political spectrum and some truths of how the evolution of how the true interactions between 'fitness for work', sickness, disability and, in particular, mental illness has been neglected. That the Tories seemed to have swallowed much of the 'bullshit' about continuing 'hidden unemployment' and relied on this for ploughing on regardless is more telling to me than faults in the design of the programme that could and should have been picked up through the pilot, its assessment and the five year annual reviews - but I could be wrong by view of prejudgement?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 3:14 pm

Outlandish far lefty, Ben Bernanke, criticizes austerity.

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/ ... arter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though a depression was averted in 2008, the recovery in the US and the UK has been slow. Bernanke partly blames the imposition of fiscal austerity (spending cuts and tax rises), which limited the effectiveness of monetary stimulus. “All the major industrial countries – US, UK, eurozone – ran too quickly to budget-cutting, given the severity of the recession and the level of unemployment.”

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 3:40 pm

Government faces legal action over women who've lost out on pensions
Hundreds of thouands of women weren't told their state pension age had changed, meaning just two years' notice of a £36,000 loss

Women face losing around £36,000 worth of pension because they were given inadequate notice of crucial changes to the State pension age. As a result many are facing real hardship, warns retirement expert Alan Higham.

He believes the government has left hundreds of thousands of woman in financial risk by not making sure they knew that they would have to wait for a State pension payout. And he warns the government faces legal action from campaigners demanding fairness and justice.

http://www.independent.co.uk/money/gove ... 24191.html

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 3:42 pm

Filibustered again

Let doctors use off-patent drugs in new ways

(Yesterdays G) http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015 ... n-new-ways" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Then this today ;

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ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 3:57 pm

Irene Short ‏@ipasho 16 mins16 minutes ago

Britain backtracks on Egypt evacuation claim amid airport chaos

http://gu.com/p/4exm6/stw

Piss up? Brewery?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 4:00 pm

The first Blair Government continued the Benefit Integrity Project,until later abandoned due to non justification being so clearly revealed and vociferous campaigning to end the misanthropy,at the time though you had Ashley,Morris etc to speak out.This time,the abandonment is the pretence that people are not sick/disabled,remove income to account for that and throw a few conditional peanuts as "recompense"

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 4:11 pm

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rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 4:18 pm

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 4:34 pm

sputnikkers - my understanding is as follows.....

ESA was introduced for sickness claims from October 2008 - for new claims only. The first WCAs, assuming they went ahead on time by Week 13, would not have happened for the first cohort until January 2009.
On average, there are 200,000 new claims every quarter (DWP figures) - that's 800,000 a year; of those, about 500,000 to 600,000 do not claim long enough to have to undergo a WCA as they sign off again.
Even if all the first cohort had a WCA, it would only have been about 200,000 people; in all likelihood it would have been about half of that.

The problems and the backlogs built up from that first cohort - that's because: a) more people qualified for ESA than expected; b) most of those having a WCA were called for a re-assessment within a year and some within just three months; c) the rate of appeals was unprecedented.

Atos could not cope with the sheer volumes - maybe they weren't expecting DWP decision-makers to allow ESA for such short periods, or perhaps they assumed that fit-for-work decisions wouldn't be challenged in the vast numbers they were, or that claimants denied ESA would re-claim as soon as they were able to. Who knows?

The upshot of all this was that the IB to ESA migration got delayed - in fact, it's still not completed. People on long-term IB didn't necessarily lose out on migration to ESA, though. There is a breakdown of all the various IB rates (there are still ten of them!) at focusondisability.org.uk

Where people lost out on migration - and plenty did - was due to their IB award, even if they qualified for Support Group ESA, being higher than the "equivalent" ESA award, possibly due to age-related or other premia. It was supposed to be seamless and lossless (is that a word?) but it wasn't. Those on IB who also got SDA lost the latter unless their ESA was Income-based, in which case they could claim other top-ups.

There has been a lot of crap talked about Thatcher putting people on the sick - Arec Balrin/Mason Dixon Autistic educated me on this subject, and has good stuff on his blog about it. I miss him on CIF - he was very knowledgeable and put the facts across brilliantly.

Of course, we cannot know what woulda/coulda/shoulda happened had Labour won in 2010. Given the Labour heirarchy at the time, and the antics of Byrne and later Reeves, I am disinclined to think much would be different.

Although it was Peter Lilley who brought Unum in to "consult", and the Unum/Atos/DWP links/corruption began under Major, it was allowed to continue under Labour - Harriet Harman, Alastair Darling, Andrew Smith, Alan Johnson, David Blunkett, John Hutton, and Peter Hain did nothing to stop the rot.
James Purnell was the worst - he wanted to charge interest on Crisis Loans (about 25%) but was blocked by Gordon Brown (who goes up in my estimation all the time) and the whole ESA project was based on a very warped interpretation of the bio/psych/social model which he bought into wholesale.

I am inclined to think, judging by Reeves' assertions that ESA needs "reform" and that "disabled people" need a proper assessment of the work they could be doing - as ever, conflating illness with disability - and her support for the WCA which also needed just "reform", that if the Blairites were still in charge, we wouldn't see much change.
I hope Owen Smith is better; I certainly think Frank Field is over-rated and not as knowledgeable as he thinks he is; and I can only hope that Labour commit to root and branch reform of the DWP and the social security system generally. Sanctions, charges, fines, ESA, PIP, all of it. Abolishing the bedroom tax is a start - but we need more and better.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 4:43 pm

HindleA wrote:The first Blair Government continued the Benefit Integrity Project,until later abandoned due to non justification being so clearly revealed and vociferous campaigning to end the misanthropy,at the time though you had Ashley,Morris etc to speak out.This time,the abandonment is the pretence that people are not sick/disabled,remove income to account for that and throw a few conditional peanuts as "recompense"

There are several Benefit Integrity Centres across the UK.

The latest info on the gov.uk site dates from September 2015 - it says that any claimant of JSA, ESA/IB, or Income Support may be contacted with a request for information. Failure to comply means that benefit is stopped.

BDCs used to confine their activities to people who were claiming income-based benefits. I don't know if that's still the case.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 4:44 pm

sputnikkers wrote:
HindleA wrote:To be clear Labour were responsible for the transfer arrangements,it just took six years to happen.Still people that haven't been so.
I am interested to hear how your experience and views reflect my understanding of the 'facts' around the events of the replacement of IB with ESA. Although dating from 2008 I thought 'reassessments' were not piloted until 2010 in restricted areas before being due for nationwide adoption. The WCA itself was due for annual review over its first five years. The first report was in November 2010 by Sir Malcolm Harrington ( An Independent Review
of the Work Capability Assessment pdf) who was very critical and, as later reported (Universal credit is a tale of failure that’s still unfolding | Jonathan Portes | Comment is free | The Guardian ), recommended delaying the Spring 2011 roll-out until the problems had been addressed (successful appeals against WCA were already hitting 40% during the pilot?).

So yes, the use of ATOS, in particular, and lack of oversight and interaction with/care of clients by JCPs etc. was flawed, partly by design but that is the nature and risk of overhauling any system dealing with complex and diverse needs and replacing with an even more complex one - but potentially 'fairer' and just as 'generous' one. Whether or not in any counterfactual turn of events Labour would have listened to Harrington depends on our beliefs and views of whether Labour's 'obsession with managerialism' would prevail or if they would have wanted to plough on regardless to try to make cuts in expenditure, whatever the consequences and whatever the prospects of success of realising them.

Of course some of this can be traced back to "our own bullshit". Everybody 'knows' that Thatcher hid large amounts of unemployment by vastly increasing case loads of the various forms of disability and invalidity benefit - without also paying attention to the protections, potential benefits and the uncovering of the disconnect between problematic very short term sickness payments and longer term health-related problems. The ESA-WCA (debacle) has at least unveiled many poor assumptions throughout the political spectrum and some truths of how the evolution of how the true interactions between 'fitness for work', sickness, disability and, in particular, mental illness has been neglected. That the Tories seemed to have swallowed much of the 'bullshit' about continuing 'hidden unemployment' and relied on this for ploughing on regardless is more telling to me than faults in the design of the programme that could and should have been picked up through the pilot, its assessment and the five year annual reviews - but I could be wrong by view of prejudgement?

Sputnikkers, hope you dont mind me briefly butting in on this though I think HindleA, Toby Latimer and Ephemerid could between them draw a bigger and better picture than me.

ESA and the WCA were implemented in October 2008, and before the 2010 election it was already clear that tere were problems, WCA being the main issue at that time, in that it was generating erratic results that didnt really reflect the needs and abilities of individual claimants. at this time I believe it was mainly used for new claimants and existing claimants who came under review. I Believe during this period up to the election questions were asked in the HoC p, and there were undertakings to review is as these were not the results that had been expected.

The Harrington report was commissioned at the end of June 2010 and came out in November. It covered the first year in some detail, and the second to a lesser degree perhaps because not all the data was in. during this post election period there were debates in the dommons as well as select committee tesimony, IIRC, in this Hansard is your friend, I can remember Harrington, plus Labour and tory presenting evidence. As the months rolled on and the intention to push everyone through a reassessment process it became apparent that not only was the WCA badly flawed but that the system had no precedent or capacity for the huge numbers being pushed through, and by mid 2011 there was a state of chaos. The failings of WCA were brushed over, the situation for many disabled people became critical, and in the meantime the Welfare reform bill was starting to reveal some of it more worrying detail. The rest is history.

I do not think what happened was anything like the original intent during the Labour years, for sure savings were intended and built in, but nearly all that happened after may 2010 had a different flavour, it became fixed in stone at each level it progressed through, it is only slightly mitigated at this time by the fact that a second company was brought in that helped reduce the thousands of unresolved cases. a major fault at this time was that no one in the DWP seemed to have factored in the actually time it took to process each case! Harringtons report btw mentions that he did not agree that the system was broken beyond repair, you need to read it for his exact words. as this is a mere six months after the tories came in this supports the fact that there were already great concerns about it. Disability rights people were highlighting it from the time anomalies started to occur and wanted it scrapped in the run up to the election. The coopting of a fairly well informed body of disability groups and orgs into DRUK weakened the disability voice and it wasnt till 2011 that DPAC, a disability led org - not a charity - and Sue Marsh and co produced an influential report, that a new coherent voice was found for disabled people. By then DRUK was delivering government programmes, that with hindsight have produced laughably few real improvements in employment opportunities for disabled people. The Time frame in which all of this happened was shockingly fast, something like 18 months. There were no impact assessments done, everything was pushed through at great speed to match the way the WRA was progressing.

Disabled people are split on culpability, some will never forgive Labour for what they saw as a betrayal, and others who believed, as I do myself that there would have been many teething problems with it and a large amount of unfair and dubious outcomes, but the appeal process would deal with that, backpayments would be made and the system would evolve to something fairer and more usable. I base this on the similar chaotic process of tax credits that evolved into something useful and not punitive. Under the coalition process the assessment and appeals process were made much more harsh, and none of that has really changed several years on.

I've more than written to much.My apologies. Sometimes it feels neccessary.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 4:57 pm

@Ephemerid FYA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/114580.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:00 pm

I used to be quite knowledgeable around this WCA/ESA/ stuff, a lot of stress and illness over the last few years has played havoc with my grey cells. A lot of what I used to have a grasp of seems lost in the foggy mess of my mind

I saved dozens of links though, some are still interesting such as

How Labour got welfare wrong - and how it can put it right

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-s ... abour-work" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot00933.jpg (66.96 KiB) Viewed 5685 times

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:00 pm

Have to agree with Ephemerid about the Thatcher years fallacy, I watched the conversations with interest. At the time itself, the 80s there were many older workers, especially those who had been employed doing manual work who could not have been retrained and were in health terms just unable to do more. Many of these, though still what we would now consider relatively young, were the ones who went onto sickness benefit mostly with musculoskeletal and degenerative conditons. These people have long since retired and were never a factor in 2010. The subsequent disgraceful characterisation of disabled people is ideological ugly sickness and disability denial. There are now so many cases that attest to this that it is now a national disgrace.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:03 pm

Yvette Cooper had a spell as DWP sec too.Followed by Byrne then Reeves after they lost the 2010 election. It's one beef I had with Ed that such an important post was filled with two nincompoops as these.

I remember reading about Peter Hain having big disagreements with David Freud,and resigned partly because of this. Purnell soon embraced the whole Unum 'inspred' sham assessment though.

One thing that Labour at the time did say, in their favour was that there would definitely be an impact assessment, but when IDS got in it was shelved.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:06 pm

FWIW I was ill during that time and received UB,no mention,persuasion,cajoling in the least to go on the sick,but an acceptance that getting well ,first was the priority.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:09 pm

Dr Sammy ‏@sbattrawden 21 hrs21 hours ago

@Jeremy_Hunt out with @SECAmbulance after @FrimleyPark consultants said no to him. Our ambulance bay! #juniordoctors

Reading BC Unison ‏@ReadingBCUnison 14 mins14 minutes ago

@getreading unannounced visit by #JeremyHunt - if #juniordoctors in #rdguk knew, they'd want a chat! #juniorcontract

Good for the Frimly Park consituents...And I hope the ambulance men and women didn't make him too welcome in Reading.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:10 pm

In the dying days of the last regime, the Freud Report - which called for large sections of the welfare state to be privatised - became a political football between Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. The then prime minister wanted it as his legacy, the then chancellor did not want it as an inheritance and did all he could to emasculate its proposals.
On one occasion it is said that Mr Freud had to sit through a 45-minute shouting match with Mr Brown, before being aggressively cross-examined by a room full of Treasury advisers.
Under his system, the market will decide who should receive benefit and who should go out to work. "The private sector will have to start making assessments about who they can get back into work at what cost.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... Freud.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:11 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Dr Sammy ‏@sbattrawden 21 hrs21 hours ago

@Jeremy_Hunt out with @SECAmbulance after @FrimleyPark consultants said no to him. Our ambulance bay! #juniordoctors

Reading BC Unison ‏@ReadingBCUnison 14 mins14 minutes ago

@getreading unannounced visit by #JeremyHunt - if #juniordoctors in #rdguk knew, they'd want a chat! #juniorcontract

Good for the Frimly Park consituents...And I hope the ambulance men and women didn't make him too welcome in Reading.

And we were at the Royal Berks today. Good job I didn't come across him. I'd have been writing this from a jail cell.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:19 pm

seeingclearly wrote:Have to agree with Ephemerid about the Thatcher years fallacy, I watched the conversations with interest. At the time itself, the 80s there were many older workers, especially those who had been employed doing manual work who could not have been retrained and were in health terms just unable to do more. Many of these, though still what we would now consider relatively young, were the ones who went onto sickness benefit mostly with musculoskeletal and degenerative conditons. These people have long since retired and were never a factor in 2010. The subsequent disgraceful characterisation of disabled people is ideological ugly sickness and disability denial. There are now so many cases that attest to this that it is now a national disgrace.

And if my memory served me correctly they allowed early retirement too if a person was around the sixty mark and was laid off.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:24 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:
In the dying days of the last regime, the Freud Report - which called for large sections of the welfare state to be privatised - became a political football between Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. The then prime minister wanted it as his legacy, the then chancellor did not want it as an inheritance and did all he could to emasculate its proposals.
On one occasion it is said that Mr Freud had to sit through a 45-minute shouting match with Mr Brown, before being aggressively cross-examined by a room full of Treasury advisers.
Under his system, the market will decide who should receive benefit and who should go out to work. "The private sector will have to start making assessments about who they can get back into work at what cost.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... Freud.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Freud / Unum and its inheritors etc., were pivotal in all of this, as was/ is a doctrinaire belief that computers can do the complex job of assessing peoples real ability to sustain a place in the workplace that will provide an income they can survive on. In essence the WCA is not much more sophisticated than those 12, 25 or 20 answer quizzes you can take on facebook on any subject under the sun. It is lazy computing and lazy science, and doesnt function to give any real analysis, its existence is not to rule people in for eligibility based on their real state, but to eliminate them from the system. If Gordon Brown was angry I can understand why.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:30 pm

ephemerid wrote:Well, Ms.J.A. - apologise if you must; I think you were right the first time. I'd have been considerably more vitriolic.

Just picked this up from the Twattosphere - no idea if it's true - @yhdoctors (Yorkshire Junior Doctors, apparently) say this - according to the BMA, the heads of medical Royal Colleges have been ordered by the government to condemn junior doctors' strike action or risk their Royal Charters.

If there is any truth in this, it is absolutely disgraceful.

Thank you, my dear friend.
Apologies for getting my thanks to in late, I went away from the computer for awhile.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:30 pm

Here's a long read from Compass, 2010 (pdf file)

DARK TIMES FOR THOSE WHO CANNOT WORK:NO COMPETENCE, NO COMPASSION IN INCAPACITY BENEFIT REFORM

https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/sites/ ... kpiece.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot00934.jpg (79.56 KiB) Viewed 5655 times

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:40 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Have to agree with Ephemerid about the Thatcher years fallacy, I watched the conversations with interest. At the time itself, the 80s there were many older workers, especially those who had been employed doing manual work who could not have been retrained and were in health terms just unable to do more. Many of these, though still what we would now consider relatively young, were the ones who went onto sickness benefit mostly with musculoskeletal and degenerative conditons. These people have long since retired and were never a factor in 2010. The subsequent disgraceful characterisation of disabled people is ideological ugly sickness and disability denial. There are now so many cases that attest to this that it is now a national disgrace.

And if my memory served me correctly they allowed early retirement too if a person was around the sixty mark and was laid off.

Yes, you are right. Even if you did not take your pension till retirement age it was custonary to refer, even in a jobcentre, to yourself as retired through illhealth if you had been found unfit for work by a DLA assessor, who was a doctor who in many cases saw you at home. The testing was very thorough. This continued till 2010 and was not quibbled at except for if you were young. Thats exactly what happened to me in 2006, much against my wishes. There was no pressure but they and I knew there was only one way my condition would progress. Today I see people with progressive MS, rheumatoid arthritis, osteopososis, complex birth injuries, and just so many more going bonkers because that people assessing them have no knowledge of their conditions at all and even if they look it up are uncomprehendding, because they ave no medical background.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:48 pm

Conservatives in disarray as Osborne signals raid on Duncan Smith’s Universal Credit funds

https://a6er.wordpress.com/2015/11/06/c ... dit-funds/

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:48 pm

Evening all

LDV has lost the plot

What is their party about?

http://www.libdemvoice.org/better-the-c ... l#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and the Barker/Shaw shitefest continues to beggar belief!

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:49 pm

Oh FFS - now the Guardian has got an interview with Danczuk as their Saturday special. No wonder he's set up a separate company to deal with his media output - and income.

I don't want to hear anymore from him, or about him, for a very long time.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:53 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Evening all

LDV has lost the plot

What is their party about?

http://www.libdemvoice.org/better-the-c ... l#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and the Barker/Shaw shitefest continues to beggar belief!

I can only echo the BTL post that says 'This is satire, isn’t it? It has to be.'

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:55 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:
In the dying days of the last regime, the Freud Report - which called for large sections of the welfare state to be privatised - became a political football between Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. The then prime minister wanted it as his legacy, the then chancellor did not want it as an inheritance and did all he could to emasculate its proposals.
On one occasion it is said that Mr Freud had to sit through a 45-minute shouting match with Mr Brown, before being aggressively cross-examined by a room full of Treasury advisers.
Under his system, the market will decide who should receive benefit and who should go out to work. "The private sector will have to start making assessments about who they can get back into work at what cost.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... Freud.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Freud / Unum and its inheritors etc., were pivotal in all of this, as was/ is a doctrinaire belief that computers can do the complex job of assessing peoples real ability to sustain a place in the workplace that will provide an income they can survive on. In essence the WCA is not much more sophisticated than those 12, 25 or 20 answer quizzes you can take on facebook on any subject under the sun. It is lazy computing and lazy science, and doesnt function to give any real analysis, its existence is not to rule people in for eligibility based on their real state, but to eliminate them from the system. If Gordon Brown was angry I can understand why.

Me too, the sniffing around Unum and adoption of an unproven biopsychosocial model could have and should have been laid to rest in 1994 after Lilley's nosing around. It's all the more galling to me that IB was still in place when Major left office.

But we are where we are, Corbyn & McDonnell are the first two at the top for a generation who recognise how wrong it was, and all the spiteful infighting from Danczuk et al fills me with dread, as they continually undermine the party as it is, along with any chance of a fair system being brought back.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:57 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Oh FFS - now the Guardian has got an interview with Danczuk as their Saturday special. No wonder he's set up a separate company to deal with his media output - and income.

I don't want to hear anymore from him, or about him, for a very long time.

Thanks for the warning

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:00 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Outlandish far lefty, Ben Bernanke, criticizes austerity.

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/ ... arter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though a depression was averted in 2008, the recovery in the US and the UK has been slow. Bernanke partly blames the imposition of fiscal austerity (spending cuts and tax rises), which limited the effectiveness of monetary stimulus. “All the major industrial countries – US, UK, eurozone – ran too quickly to budget-cutting, given the severity of the recession and the level of unemployment.”

Correct.
It's often been said in media that the US didn't implement austerity measures, that is to say, that the US didn't cut public sector (government) spending. That's inaccurate. Budget sequestration measures began in the US in 2011. A memorable image I'll not forget was President Obama caving in and signing the Republican budget. He was quoted as saying, "It doesn't have to be this way.". It was after a long stand-off between the executive and legislative branches of US government a few years ago. He signed a budget he didn't think appropriate. I don't know enough about his alternatives to castigate him for signing the budget that included jackass expenditure reduction on necessary services. You stupid, stupid, fools.

President Says He Won’t Sign Another Continuing Resolution

WASHINGTON, October 2, 2015 — President Barack Obama said today he will not sign another short-term continuing resolution in December, and he called on Congress to repeal what he called “some of the counterproductive austerity measures that they have put in place.”

http://www.defense.gov/News-Article-Vie ... resolution

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:05 pm

Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 1h1 hour ago
Process stories: every party tries to avoid 'em but they tell us so much. Labour’s Andrew Fisher row tells us a lot http://bit.ly/1S3ghNR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:11 pm

Further to that ridiculous article on LDV I would like to touch on this meme going around the MSM that is starting to suggest we are entering a phase of left-wing extremism and it is a threat to security - the main focus being Corbyn of course

I have been around the patch for a number of years and cannot remember any time when there has really been a threat from the extreme left to our society...even the miner's strikes and militant never really had any traction outside the op ed pages - and much was overblown anyway

What there has been though is a sense that any left wing Government of any persuasion would be acceptably challenged from the right - even undemocratically. If we look at this in seriousness we can see that there is essentially no organisation that could be a threat to our democratic infrastructure from the left.

Contrary to that I have seen and heard rumours of plenty of conspiracies to undermine Labour Governments or anything that looks left-wing. I am not a conspiracy nut but I don't thing you need to be to see that the Establishment has influence and desire to make sure their position is never put into question

As we head towards a different type of world - more akin to the pre-war years than to those we have been used to I think we will see this being more and more visible. It is really pretty scary

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:17 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 1h1 hour ago
Process stories: every party tries to avoid 'em but they tell us so much. Labour’s Andrew Fisher row tells us a lot http://bit.ly/1S3ghNR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i think we'll be seeing more of this. If he survives it he may come out stronger. cameryon didnt get rid of the people he was advised to ditch, who frankly,had done an awful lot more. This is just the start.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:20 pm

Apologies in advance. Who was it said 'blood boiling' earlier? I think I am now emitting steam ...

joncraigSKY ‏@joncraig 7m7 minutes ago
Simon Danczuk tells me re suspended Corbyn adviser Andrew Fisher: "Good work by the NEC. His uncomradely behaviour is unacceptable."

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:22 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 1h1 hour ago
Process stories: every party tries to avoid 'em but they tell us so much. Labour’s Andrew Fisher row tells us a lot http://bit.ly/1S3ghNR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is this a big deal? I can't tell any more. Different standards are applied to different segments of our government and opposition parties. I'd expected Fisher to have been caught with a pig or summat. No?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:22 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 1h1 hour ago
Process stories: every party tries to avoid 'em but they tell us so much. Labour’s Andrew Fisher row tells us a lot http://bit.ly/1S3ghNR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
i think we'll be seeing more of this. If he survives it he may come out stronger. cameryon didnt get rid of the people he was advised to ditch, who frankly,had done an awful lot more. This is just the start.

Corbyn's no way strong enough for Fisher and Milne to survive for very long in their jobs.

That's separate from whether Fisher's broken Labour rules.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:22 pm

: ScreenShot00935.jpg (37.58 KiB) Viewed 5546 times

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:27 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Apologies in advance. Who was it said 'blood boiling' earlier? I think I am now emitting steam ...

joncraigSKY ‏@joncraig 7m7 minutes ago
Simon Danczuk tells me re suspended Corbyn adviser Andrew Fisher: "Good work by the NEC. His uncomradely behaviour is unacceptable."

Uncomradely ? From Danczuk ? He's really taking the ****.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:28 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Further to that ridiculous article on LDV I would like to touch on this meme going around the MSM that is starting to suggest we are entering a phase of left-wing extremism and it is a threat to security - the main focus being Corbyn of course

I have been around the patch for a number of years and cannot remember any time when there has really been a threat from the extreme left to our society...even the miner's strikes and militant never really had any traction outside the op ed pages - and much was overblown anyway

What there has been though is a sense that any left wing Government of any persuasion would be acceptably challenged from the right - even undemocratically. If we look at this in seriousness we can see that there is essentially no organisation that could be a threat to our democratic infrastructure from the left.

Contrary to that I have seen and heard rumours of plenty of conspiracies to undermine Labour Governments or anything that looks left-wing. I am not a conspiracy nut but I don't thing you need to be to see that the Establishment has influence and desire to make sure their position is never put into question

As we head towards a different type of world - more akin to the pre-war years than to those we have been used to I think we will see this being more and more visible. It is really pretty scary

Wise words, I agree with the pre-WW2 years society and have often thought this. Yes, the only undermining and threat is to regular people and socially democracy from Establishment. I think the same. Lots of money gets spent advertising something completely different, however.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:34 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Apologies in advance. Who was it said 'blood boiling' earlier? I think I am now emitting steam ...

joncraigSKY ‏@joncraig 7m7 minutes ago
Simon Danczuk tells me re suspended Corbyn adviser Andrew Fisher: "Good work by the NEC. His uncomradely behaviour is unacceptable."

joncraigSKY says that Danczuk said that...