Monday 11th January 2016

[StephenDolan]

FFS, here we go again.
Shadow Cabinet Minister Quits Jeremy Corbyn's Frontbench Team - http://huff.to/1UINy24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

@RobertSnozers:

It would mean we'd have to rebalance the economy in favour of manufacturing, and it would cause great damage to the Tories' power base. Yet another reason to vote No in my book, and they are beginning to stack up...

But would they? For a start they're aiming for permanent Cons government in order to run the country how they want, and we know already to our cost it's not what's best for the country as a whole.

Secondly, even if they said they would rebalance in favour of manufacturing we know they are the most inept bunch there has ever been in government. I'm doubtful that attempt would get off the ground.

And thirdly, our ruling elite have enough wealth that if things got really bad they'd bugger off abroad, or sit back and live, very nicely thank you, on their ill gotten gains.

If they did manage to get UK plc off the ground and making things again, it won't do us much good.
A malnourished, dispirited workforce scared of losing the low paid pathetic job they might have; in poor health, with a shorter life span, and living in caravan parks because there's not enough housing, provides a compliant, cheap labour pool. With the added bonus of all workers rights removed, it's exactly what the big Corporations who are beginning to run the country want.

I voted against joining back in the seventies, but I'm not so sure we should pull out now. A inward looking, Conservative owned and run country isn't what I want for my grandchildren.

[citizenJA]

It's my understanding many of Dave Cameron's Tories want to leave the EU, but I've no idea if that's true or if it's just something I read repeatedly in articles. It may be fallacious. I'm intrigued by RobertSnozers post about leaving the EU cutting the rug out from under the City and big Tory funders. That's likely true. I don't think big money and most Tories want the UK to leave the EU. I’m willing to disoblige Tories, no problem. I’ve not given the EU referendum a lot of my attention and always thought I’d vote to remain. I’m willing to explore reasons not to vote to remain in the EU. Any thoughts and/or further reading material you all can supply me are welcome.

[danesclose]

Benny Hill trumps Bowie every time

David Cameron's Desert Island Discs;

1. Bob Dylan – Tangled Up In Blue
2. Benny Hill – Ernie
3. Pink Floyd – Wish You Were Here
4. Felix Mendelssohn (performed by Kiri Te Kanawa) – O, For the Wings of a Dove
5. Radiohead – Fake Plastic Trees
6. The Smiths – This Charming Man
7. REM – Perfect Circle
8. The Killers – All These Things That I've Done

Good morning all. Whilst I wasn't the biggest Bowie fan in the world, he was a massive part of my '70's adolescence.

Apparently our glorious leader has paid tribute to his favourite singer of all time, David Bowie. Cameron said his favourite song of his was "Gonna Make You A Star"

[rebeccariots2]

It's a good point about the City - we can kiss that goodbye if we do leave the EU.

Which might be no bad thing. It would mean we'd have to rebalance the economy in favour of manufacturing, and it would cause great damage to the Tories' power base. Yet another reason to vote No in my book, and they are beginning to stack up...

PS in my view the Scots will be delighted to receive overtures from the EU. Many will see it as a way of freeing themselves from England forever. It might even trigger Scots hoping for a no in the EU ref so they can demand a new Indyref (although that would only really work if Scotland voted largely to stay)

Yes - I agree. That was one of the points I was trying to make - clumsily.

[rebeccariots2]

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt 6m6 minutes ago
Andy Slaughter the likely (and best possible) replacement as shadow attorney general.

That would be fantastic.

Of course, there will then be howls because he's a London MP and a man. But if woman from Newcastle resigns ... what is Corbyn supposed to do - reappoint only on the basis of gender and region?

[rebeccariots2]

Rob Merrick ‏@Rob_Merrick 16m16 minutes ago
Rob Merrick Retweeted Paul Waugh
Another London MP to replace a departed Northerner....?

There you go.

[ohsocynical]

On balance, I'd rather stay within the EU but, as RobertSnozers says, the reasons for "out" are stacking up. And I believe coming out will do irreparable damage to the Conservatives (the City being not the least of it). If the only way we can dislodge the Conservatives is to vote "No" - then so be it. We can recover, somehow, from the exit - but a continuance of this species of government is something that we won't recover from. This is not "cutting off the nose to spite the face" but rather "cutting off the nose to save the rest of the entity" (the entity, in this case, being one that is capable, in time, of growing a new nose).

I do agree with you up to a point, but they [the Cons] are so brainless and inept, let alone what will happen with the possiblity of them becoming entrenched thanks to boundary changes.

Everything they touch turns into a shambles.

Okay Cam might go, but look at who's waiting in the wings. Osborne, Boris, May, Gove, Hunt, Grayling, Fox etc, etc.

Damn, it's scary.

[StephenDolan]

Rob Merrick ‏@Rob_Merrick 16m16 minutes ago
Rob Merrick Retweeted Paul Waugh
Another London MP to replace a departed Northerner....?

There you go.

So predictable!

[rebeccariots2]

Why are Danczuk's tweets still appearing on the tweetminster Labour feed? Wish they would disappear at least while he's suspended from the party.

[StephenDolan]

On balance, I'd rather stay within the EU but, as RobertSnozers says, the reasons for "out" are stacking up. And I believe coming out will do irreparable damage to the Conservatives (the City being not the least of it). If the only way we can dislodge the Conservatives is to vote "No" - then so be it. We can recover, somehow, from the exit - but a continuance of this species of government is something that we won't recover from. This is not "cutting off the nose to spite the face" but rather "cutting off the nose to save the rest of the entity" (the entity, in this case, being one that is capable, in time, of growing a new nose).

I do agree with you up to a point, but they [the Cons] are so brainless and inept, I worry what will happen without the possiblity of them becoming entrenched thanks to boundary changes.

Everything they touch turns into a shambles.

Okay Cam might go, but look at who's waiting in the wings. Osborne, Boris, May, Gove, Hunt, Grayling, Fox etc, etc.

Damn, it's scary.

Close win for In still likely to cause internal problems?

[AnatolyKasparov]

Its a bit concerning that some are becoming seduced by an "out" vote being good for the left - a bit like a few supported a Scotland "yes" for the same reason.

There is absolutely NO guarantee that voting to leave would "destroy the Tories" or anything like it.

But it *would* leave us a diminished country in all sorts of ways. And yes, it could leave many materially worse off too.

Cameron is a dick, we all know this. That doesn't alter the more fundamental reality that it is profoundly in our interests to remain engaged with our European partners.

[ohsocynical]

On balance, I'd rather stay within the EU but, as RobertSnozers says, the reasons for "out" are stacking up. And I believe coming out will do irreparable damage to the Conservatives (the City being not the least of it). If the only way we can dislodge the Conservatives is to vote "No" - then so be it. We can recover, somehow, from the exit - but a continuance of this species of government is something that we won't recover from. This is not "cutting off the nose to spite the face" but rather "cutting off the nose to save the rest of the entity" (the entity, in this case, being one that is capable, in time, of growing a new nose).

I do agree with you up to a point, but they [the Cons] are so brainless and inept, I worry what will happen without the possiblity of them becoming entrenched thanks to boundary changes.

Everything they touch turns into a shambles.

Okay Cam might go, but look at who's waiting in the wings. Osborne, Boris, May, Gove, Hunt, Grayling, Fox etc, etc.

Damn, it's scary.

Close win for In still likely to cause internal problems?

I suspect we still don't know the half of how bad things are at present. They'll still be there whatever the outcome.

But without the EU, I suspect we'll really be in the doo-doos and run by the US. God forbid.

[rebeccariots2]

Politico Daily ‏@Politico_Daily 4m4 minutes ago
Breaking: Labour MP Paula Sherriff resigns as PPS to Shadow DCLG Secretary John Trickett

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 1m1 minute ago
If Corbyn wants a non-London successor to McKinnell, he could of course opt for @KarlTurnerMP, ex Shad SolGeneral + Hull MP

[rebeccariots2]

Its a bit concerning that some are becoming seduced by an "out" vote being good for the left - a bit like a few supported a Scotland "yes" for the same reason.

There is absolutely NO guarantee that voting to leave would "destroy the Tories" or anything like it.

But it *would* leave us a diminished country in all sorts of ways. And yes, it could leave many materially worse off too.

Cameron is a dick, we all know this. That doesn't alter the more fundamental reality that it is profoundly in our interests to remain engaged with our European partners.

'Seduced'? Blimey AK - it's not my idea of a seduction!

[ohsocynical]

Michael Dugher MP @MichaelDugher
@AndyHarvey7 @ATW1062

I didn't take any money

Orbyuk ‏@orbyuk 2 hrs2 hours ago
Orbyuk Retweeted Michael Dugher MP

So your motivation was just spite then? What an asset to the Labour Party you are? Lab MP stabs leader for The Scum Orbyuk added,

[StephenDolan]

Lin Homer to stand down in April. Borders agency then HMRC, sterling work there. Needs rewarding with a gong. Oh, she already was....

[AnatolyKasparov]

Its a bit concerning that some are becoming seduced by an "out" vote being good for the left - a bit like a few supported a Scotland "yes" for the same reason.

There is absolutely NO guarantee that voting to leave would "destroy the Tories" or anything like it.

But it *would* leave us a diminished country in all sorts of ways. And yes, it could leave many materially worse off too.

Cameron is a dick, we all know this. That doesn't alter the more fundamental reality that it is profoundly in our interests to remain engaged with our European partners.

'Seduced'? Blimey AK - it's not my idea of a seduction!

Yeah, OK. You know what I mean

Oh, and why did McKinnell take so long?

[citizenJA]

Its a bit concerning that some are becoming seduced by an "out" vote being good for the left - a bit like a few supported a Scotland "yes" for the same reason.

There is absolutely NO guarantee that voting to leave would "destroy the Tories" or anything like it.

But it *would* leave us a diminished country in all sorts of ways. And yes, it could leave many materially worse off too.

Cameron is a dick, we all know this. That doesn't alter the more fundamental reality that it is profoundly in our interests to remain engaged with our European partners.

I'm glad you've brought this up. I wonder if it would've been better if Scotland had voted to leave the UK. Better for left-wing parties and leadership for every UK country (region). Look at the situation as it is now, that's the reason I ask. Please bear with me. Is Scotland happy? Do Scottish SNP MPs consistently and visibly represent every UK constituency through their actions and words? What would've happened to Dave and his Tory party had Scotland voted for independence?

Tory MPs represent a small number of people and that's a fact. The acrimony between Labour and SNP is pointless for everyone interested in pursuing greater justice and fairness for everyone but it's real and it's there and that's why I wonder if it would've been better for Scotland and the rest of the UK had they chosen independence. I personally didn't want Scotland to choose independence.

[citizenJA]

I do agree with you up to a point, but they [the Cons] are so brainless and inept, I worry what will happen without the possiblity of them becoming entrenched thanks to boundary changes.

Everything they touch turns into a shambles.

Okay Cam might go, but look at who's waiting in the wings. Osborne, Boris, May, Gove, Hunt, Grayling, Fox etc, etc.

Damn, it's scary.

Close win for In still likely to cause internal problems?

I suspect we still don't know the half of how bad things are at present. They'll still be there whatever the outcome.

But without the EU, I suspect we'll really be in the doo-doos and run by the US. God forbid.

I tend to agree with you.
It's only been recently I've thought about leaving the EU.

[Willow904]

Its a bit concerning that some are becoming seduced by an "out" vote being good for the left - a bit like a few supported a Scotland "yes" for the same reason.

There is absolutely NO guarantee that voting to leave would "destroy the Tories" or anything like it.

But it *would* leave us a diminished country in all sorts of ways. And yes, it could leave many materially worse off too.

Cameron is a dick, we all know this. That doesn't alter the more fundamental reality that it is profoundly in our interests to remain engaged with our European partners.

The idealist in me believes in the EU and the pragmatist in me knows that only by sticking together can the minnows of the old world hope to hold their own against the might of the US and China.
The problem is, I'm almost always on the minority side in pretty much everything that matters. If I vote in, it seems almost inevitable that out will prevail! Giving Cameron a kicking is only too tempting. I agree with ohsocynical, the things the Tories want to do, such as withdraw from the ECHR, will be much easier to achieve outside of the EU and that's quite scary. I'd rather see Labour MEPs lobbying Brussels to hang tough and introduce the FTT and generally stop giving the City of London a free pass, than vote no in the hope that a Britain abandoned by the financial sector would be a better place.

[citizenJA]

Its a bit concerning that some are becoming seduced by an "out" vote being good for the left - a bit like a few supported a Scotland "yes" for the same reason.

There is absolutely NO guarantee that voting to leave would "destroy the Tories" or anything like it.

But it *would* leave us a diminished country in all sorts of ways. And yes, it could leave many materially worse off too.

Cameron is a dick, we all know this. That doesn't alter the more fundamental reality that it is profoundly in our interests to remain engaged with our European partners.

(my bold)

I agree with everything you've written in your post, that last bit especially.
My other post contains thoughts I've recently pondered because of dissatisfaction with current government.

[ohsocynical]

Regarding MPs, I've nearly gone full circle.

After voting LibDem and knowing I'd been used, I was disgusted with all MPs. Thought they were all the same. Then along came Ed, and it was like coming home. I could see decent human being, and a clever politician. We lost him though, and then Corbyn popped up.
Didn't know much about him, but was pleasantly surprised as the weeks passed. One of us. Another decent human being, and, thank you Lord, not interested in the trappings.

The rest though? There are quite a few I wouldn't waste my spit on, and there are more coming from the woodwork every day.

I am quickly becoming disillusioned again.

The shortfall in party funding if the Tories have their way? Judging by the support Corybn has. [And Ed had when it came to donations] Pretty sure it wouldn't be a problem. I'd happily scrape up a few quid for them, but not if these Whatever Their Names Are, don't shut up. If they do drive Corbyn out, they'll put the Labour party into a world of hurt ...

[citizenJA]

Flood warnings for:
England and Wales
1:06pm Monday 11 January 2016

23 Flood warnings - flooding is expected. Immediate action required.
► 23 Flood warnings - flooding is expected. Immediate action required.
144 Flood alerts - flooding is possible. Be prepared.
► 144 Flood alerts - flooding is possible. Be prepared.
49 Warnings no longer in force - flood warnings and flood alerts removed in the last 24 hours.
► 49 Warnings no longer in force - flood warnings and flood alerts removed in the last 24 hours.

https://flood-warning-information.servi ... k/warnings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Twenty-three (23) flooding expected warnings in England and Wales

[ohsocynical]

It's not as if I think Corbyn is the be all and end all of the Labour Party. He isn't, indeed he shouldn't be. That would be far too limiting, but many MPs who should be re-shaping Labour for the people by the people as per popular request, are showing themselves to be short on dignity, common sense, loyalty, and lack of consideration for the huge numbers of people who are being irretrievably damaged by this government.

[HindleA]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mik-sca ... 40344.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is This Really So Hard to Understand?

This is one of tragic outcomes of the misinformation around disability that has occurred in the last decade or so. While many disabled people are unable to work, either through ill health or due to employers believing another incorrect stereotype of disabled people being poor employees, there are many who do work. Surely that's not too difficult to understand? Just being disabled does not equal living on benefits at all. Also aren't those disabled people who require benefits to get by exactly the people who the system was set up to support? So why all the venom against disabled people, working or not?

I really believe that a healthy society is more than happy to support those who are unable to support themselves, especially due to illness or disability. What is most ridiculous is that as most disabled people come by their impairment later in life it is very likely that the very people who are so upset by this system of support may have to call on it one day, when they need it the most.

[rebeccariots2]

Justine Thornton ‏@JustineT 1h1 hour ago
I am absolutely delighted to be appointed Queen's Counsel
http://bit.ly/1OKf9jj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PorFavor]

I've taken on board the comments of those who feel it is not to our advantage to leave the EU (re the Conservatives) and the arguments are, um, seductive. The problem that I have is that I'm simply not convinced - either way.

[yahyah]

FFS, here we go again.
Shadow Cabinet Minister Quits Jeremy Corbyn's Frontbench Team - http://huff.to/1UINy24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems like a plan by them [call them what you will] to get a resignation in the headlines as often as possible.

Am coming ever closer to following Ephie.
What's the point of belonging to a party where so many MPs seem to be happy to do the Tories work for them ?

It was over the holiday, when I was without net access to find out who it was, I heard Radio 4 quote an unamed senior Labour person gloating that we'd seen nothing yet, wait until Labour MPs walk out of the House when Corbyn's speaking just to get at him, and that they would focus on fighting him, not the Tories.

[rebeccariots2]

FFS, here we go again.
Shadow Cabinet Minister Quits Jeremy Corbyn's Frontbench Team - http://huff.to/1UINy24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems like a plan by them [call them what you will] to get a resignation in the headlines as often as possible.

Am coming ever closer to following Ephie.
What's the point of belonging to a party where so many MPs seem to be happy to do the Tories work for them ?

It was over the holiday, when I was without net access to find out who it was, I heard Radio 4 quote an unamed senior Labour person gloating that we'd seen nothing yet, wait until Labour MPs walk out of the House when Corbyn's speaking just to get at him, and that they would focus on fighting him, not the Tories.

I heard that too yahyah - and commented on it here. It was said to be a shadow minister - and the tactics they were saying they would employ to get Corbyn out - even if it took more than a year and cost seats in Wales and London and councils - were disgusting.

I have hoped that that shadow minister is no longer on the front benches. Who knows. Utterly poisonous and completely without regard for damage it will do to the party and members.

But having said that. Don't resign please. That's what will help such MPs to reinforce their flawed narrative ... if you resign it will be put down as Corbyn's fault by them.

[rebeccariots2]

Alex Cunningham ‏@ACunninghamMP 5m5 minutes ago
Chance to again press Government on resilience issues re development & flooding has been lost after Tory MP withdrew cross party amendment

[yahyah]

Details here of how you can view our Welsh Labour First Minister Carwyn Jones debate Nigel Farage tonight:

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2016-01-0 ... mru-wales/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It would be a help if those in the Westminster PLP bubble recognised how close we are to the May elections.
Being under a Welsh Labour government is at least something of a safety net from the effect of Tory misrule. English Labour MPs should at least hold their criticisms and backstabbing until after May.
Unless they want a disaster for Welsh Labour so they can dig their knives in further.

[refitman]

FFS, here we go again.
Shadow Cabinet Minister Quits Jeremy Corbyn's Frontbench Team - http://huff.to/1UINy24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems like a plan by them [call them what you will] to get a resignation in the headlines as often as possible.

Am coming ever closer to following Ephie.
What's the point of belonging to a party where so many MPs seem to be happy to do the Tories work for them ?

It was over the holiday, when I was without net access to find out who it was, I heard Radio 4 quote an unamed senior Labour person gloating that we'd seen nothing yet, wait until Labour MPs walk out of the House when Corbyn's speaking just to get at him, and that they would focus on fighting him, not the Tories.

However, if you look at her resignation letter, she cites the following reasons for stepping down (in order of importance):

1. Just had a new child and commuting from NE is a strain
2. Wants to talk about more than just law
3. Tensions in the party

This is what she wrote about 3:

Both of these issues are amplified by a third factor - the situation in which the Labour party now finds itself. As somebody who came into politics with the sole motivation of making life better for my city, my region and, by extension, the country as a whole, I recognised that our electoral defeats in both 2010 and 2015 demanded a genuine and profound response from the Labour party. I therefore shared your optimism for the ‘new kind of politics’ you spoke so compellingly about.

However, as events have unfolded over recent weeks, my concerns about the direction and internal conflict within the Labour party have only grown, and I fear this is taking us down an increasingly negative path. I feel that I would like to channel my energy constructively, into making positive changes for my constituency.

She could be talking about the Blairite/"Moderates" as much as Corbyn.

[yahyah]

Thank you Dan, & RR. Felt a rush of blood to the head for a few minutes.

[TobyLatimer]

Oops ...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1419 ... vid_Bowie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ScreenShot01395.jpg (95.01 KiB) Viewed 6110 times

[ohsocynical]

I've taken on board the comments of those who feel it is not to our advantage to leave the EU (re the Conservatives) and the arguments are, um, seductive. The problem that I have is that I'm simply not convinced - either way.

I keep getting the urge to say in best Fraser style: We're doomed, doomed I tell ye.

[rebeccariots2]

FFS, here we go again.
Shadow Cabinet Minister Quits Jeremy Corbyn's Frontbench Team - http://huff.to/1UINy24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems like a plan by them [call them what you will] to get a resignation in the headlines as often as possible.

Am coming ever closer to following Ephie.
What's the point of belonging to a party where so many MPs seem to be happy to do the Tories work for them ?

It was over the holiday, when I was without net access to find out who it was, I heard Radio 4 quote an unamed senior Labour person gloating that we'd seen nothing yet, wait until Labour MPs walk out of the House when Corbyn's speaking just to get at him, and that they would focus on fighting him, not the Tories.

However, if you look at her resignation letter, she cites the following reasons for stepping down (in order of importance):

1. Just had a new child and commuting from NE is a strain
2. Wants to talk about more than just law
3. Tensions in the party

This is what she wrote about 3:

Both of these issues are amplified by a third factor - the situation in which the Labour party now finds itself. As somebody who came into politics with the sole motivation of making life better for my city, my region and, by extension, the country as a whole, I recognised that our electoral defeats in both 2010 and 2015 demanded a genuine and profound response from the Labour party. I therefore shared your optimism for the ‘new kind of politics’ you spoke so compellingly about.

However, as events have unfolded over recent weeks, my concerns about the direction and internal conflict within the Labour party have only grown, and I fear this is taking us down an increasingly negative path. I feel that I would like to channel my energy constructively, into making positive changes for my constituency.

She could be talking about the Blairite/"Moderates" as much as Corbyn.

I agree. Annoyed by BBC WATO when their commentator said she had resigned about the negative direction Corbyn was taking the party in ... and then they read out her actual sentence which said nothing like that.

And the PPS to John Trickett who has resigned as well has done so for entirely personal reasons.

[citizenJA]

It's not as if I think Corbyn is the be all and end all of the Labour Party. He isn't, indeed he shouldn't be. That would be far too limiting, but many MPs who should be re-shaping Labour for the people by the people as per popular request, are showing themselves to be short on dignity, common sense, loyalty, and lack of consideration for the huge numbers of people who are being irretrievably damaged by this government.

Most of them are okay, Ohso. I've not met them all, true. I've spent a recent number of years examining whether media's stories about Labour party MPs, councillors, members, supporters and policies have any validity. Sure, when a Labour MP sounds off, resigns, complains about something Labour, I have trouble hearing anything else. Their voices are amplified that loud. It seems all doom and gloom. I don't watch television or listen to the radio and I'm not on twitter. I spend time looking over speeches, interviews, Parliamentary broadcasts, selected visual media and I read news, I go after sources. I imagine this contributes to my opinion most Labour MPs are okay. I'm terrified of Tories and those supporting them for the same reason.

I find out a lot from an MPs' voting record, for example. Hold an MPs voting record in front of them, reading it. Broadcast it. 'Here is your work, are you satisfied with what you've done?' I'd watch that and take part in it too.

[ephemerid]

On Labour -
If all the folks who are resigning think that Corbyn, who has been actually quite moderate in his policies so far, is too left-wing for them, what do they think Labour is about?
If it's supposed to be the party of the workers, what do they think leaving shadow positions will achieve? It won't help wages, pensions, housing, all the stuff that people need.
I simply cannot understand why they think they are doing the right thing when if ever there was a time for a united party to fight the Tories, this is it. They're like children.
The argument seems to be that as they were elected on Ed's manifesto, they have to stick rigidly to it - as if Ed wouldn't have changed policies if he felt the need to.
They really need to stop this - they are, for their own ends seemingly, refusing to help the leader (who the party members wanted) to oppose the Tories with any credibility.
If the PLP doesn't get behind him, there is no chance that these fascists in government will be stopped. Don't these MPs care about housing, social security, education, health, justice? Are they really happy to watch their own party crumble because of their antics and see it fail to fight for the very people who put them where they are?
Left-wingers did the decent thing under Blair and Brown - a few rebels on some issues (Corbyn included) but generally they supported their government most of the time on the things that mattered.
This mob should do the same. It really annoys me that they won't.

On Brexit -
Given all the above, a Brexit would be a total disaster. I don't give a fiddlers' fart about Cameron and what happens to him.
We leave the EU, and we are fucked.
The Tories have already dismantled as much as they can in terms of access to justice, employment law, social security - things that the EU can help us with and if we leave we can say goodbye to a fair chunk of the human and legal rights that go with membership.
The UK might save a bit of cash not having to pay in - but we will have to pay a lot more to trade, all the grants and subsidies will go, and lord only knows what will happen to our poor.

When I think about how much worse things have become since just May of last year, I despair. The coalition was bad enough - but now that the Tories have that little majority, they're using it to ram through appalling policies on just about everything.
What is Labour FOR if it won't come together (with itself, let alone the other opposition parties) to fight this? Is it so very important to these so-called "moderates" that Corbyn is removed? Do they really want their party to fail?

I'm sick of them. Anyone with a smidgeon of sense would stay put and try to get their point across - instead, they're flouncing off like bloody teenagers. When the shadow cabinet is left with nothing but lefties because all the others have gone to sulk on the back benches with slimy Umunna and stroppy whoever, they'll moan about it being too left and ignore the fact that it's their doing.

Broad church my arse.

[citizenJA]

US legislation, Senate and House speeches are rarely interesting, law is typically tiny, incremental changes built from prior legislation working within a constitutional frame. That's a rough generalisation. UK law and policy more often gets launched fully formed and overrides what came before it; it can be dire or fair. That's another rough generalisation. That's my experience of those two countries, anyway. Find the ones who voted for the Bedroom Tax, for example, hold their various votes in your hand and watch them turn pale as they contemplate the idiocy of their having done such a thing.

[citizenJA]

@Ephemerid
Outstanding post, thank you.

[ephemerid]

Oops ...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1419 ... vid_Bowie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ScreenShot01395.jpg

I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to.

Shame that newsreader wasn't right.

It was the wrong David we lost today.

[ephemerid]

If some MPs are moving away from shadow cabinet duties for personal reasons, fair enough.

But plenty aren't - that prat Doughy Doughty timed his departure deliberately and cynically to cause maximum embarrassment.
Shameful on his part; and Kuensservativeberg should be sacked.

The media are more than happy to whip up as much drama as they can - and when there's nowt to say they just make it up.
Some good people will retreat to the back benches, and not entirely due to Corbyn, either.
There must be quite a few people who are fed up with the "moderates" and their anti-Corbyn briefings.
And yet the press keep on with this "it's all Corbyn's fault" crapola when a lot of the time it isn't.

All of this suits Cameron and Osborne perfectly. They can do whatever they like. And they are.
They are taking their wrecking ball to my country and I hate them for it - and I'm close to feeling the same about a party that is supposed to be opposing their policies.
HindleA, quite rightly, pointed out to me the other day that there is some good opposition going on in committees and debates - but it's not having much effect; and as long as Labour's internecine squabbling occupies the front pages day after day Corbyn hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of putting up a fight.
All this is manna from heaven for Slimy Dave. He can spend PMQs and any other available opportunity to take the piss and keep up his impression of a PM who knows what he's doing.


AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!

[Maeght]

I've taken on board the comments of those who feel it is not to our advantage to leave the EU (re the Conservatives) and the arguments are, um, seductive. The problem that I have is that I'm simply not convinced - either way.

I keep getting the urge to say in best Fraser style: We're doomed, doomed I tell ye.

I am a life-long Europhile and also a Germanophile, although I do not like Merkel/CDU politics one little bit. And can’t help feeling extremely unsettled watching the German Social Democrats disintegrate before my very eyes. (Blairite Labour Party members please note)

Notwithstanding I got so upset by the Greek crisis and the German’s intransigence/pigheadedness last year that I ‘flirted’ with the idea of a No vote. It didn’t last very long. I soon realised that I just wanted to give the Germans a kicking and wasn’t being logical. And I will definitely vote to stay in, not even holding my nose.

I just don’t think we will ‘hack’ it outside, however rosy the Outists try to paint it. We will lose our remaining influence and will not be happy when people don’t take any notice of us any more. And it will just cost too much. Yes, we hate the City but we have to have something to replace all the money it brings before we can cut loose from it. And what will that be? Believe me, the Germans can’t wait to make Frankfurt the City’s replacement. The new, huge, extremely swish ECB bank is there, surrounded by a lot of open spaces, waiting to be filled.

I also agree with Ohso and Willow that the Tories will have it much easier to return us to ‘Victorian’ values outside the EU in order to make a quick buck. Also, perhaps it’s a sign of my age but I definitely do not want to even think about risking another war on European soil between Europeans. We dismiss it as unthinkable but is it really true?

As for the really rich, it won’t make any difference to them as it doesn’t now because they live in a protected bubble.

I’m still not happy about the structure and frequent shenanigans of the EU but am even less happy about our reluctance to get involved and do something useful apart from ‘me-ism’. We have been ‘in’ since 1975. What have we done except complain?

[PorFavor]

@ ephemerid

I'm not looking at the EU in terms of David Cameron personally. In many respects he is the least of our worries with regard to the Conservatives.

And as for his dieing (or not, as it turns out) - can you imagine the sympathy boost that would engender? Doesn't bear thinking about. In that spirit, I kind of wish that the Quing would live forever. It was bad enough when her mother died . . . . (Although we only have to keep DC alive whilst he's in office, I suppose.)

[ohsocynical]

I've taken on board the comments of those who feel it is not to our advantage to leave the EU (re the Conservatives) and the arguments are, um, seductive. The problem that I have is that I'm simply not convinced - either way.

I keep getting the urge to say in best Fraser style: We're doomed, doomed I tell ye.

I am a life-long Europhile and also a Germanophile, although I do not like Merkel/CDU politics one little bit. And can’t help feeling extremely unsettled watching the German Social Democrats disintegrate before my very eyes. (Blairite Labour Party members please note)

Notwithstanding I got so upset by the Greek crisis and the German’s intransigence/pigheadedness last year that I ‘flirted’ with the idea of a No vote. It didn’t last very long. I soon realised that I just wanted to give the Germans a kicking and wasn’t being logical. And I will definitely vote to stay in, not even holding my nose.

I just don’t think we will ‘hack’ it outside, however rosy the Outists try to paint it. We will lose our remaining influence and will not be happy when people don’t take any notice of us any more. And it will just cost too much. Yes, we hate the City but we have to have something to replace all the money it brings before we can cut loose from it. And what will that be? Believe me, the Germans can’t wait to make Frankfurt the City’s replacement. The new, huge, extremely swish ECB bank is there, surrounded by a lot of open spaces, waiting to be filled.

I also agree with Ohso and Willow that the Tories will have it much easier to return us to ‘Victorian’ values outside the EU in order to make a quick buck. Also, perhaps it’s a sign of my age but I definitely do not want to even think about risking another war on European soil between Europeans. We dismiss it as unthinkable but is it really true?

As for the really rich, it won’t make any difference to them as it doesn’t now because they live in a protected bubble.

I’m still not happy about the structure and frequent shenanigans of the EU but am even less happy about our reluctance to get involved and do something useful apart from ‘me-ism’. We have been ‘in’ since 1975. What have we done except complain?

Yes! Well put.

[citizenJA]

On balance, I'd rather stay within the EU but, as RobertSnozers says, the reasons for "out" are stacking up. And I believe coming out will do irreparable damage to the Conservatives (the City being not the least of it). If the only way we can dislodge the Conservatives is to vote "No" - then so be it. We can recover, somehow, from the exit - but a continuance of this species of government is something that we won't recover from. This is not "cutting off the nose to spite the face" but rather "cutting off the nose to save the rest of the entity" (the entity, in this case, being one that is capable, in time, of growing a new nose).

Thank you. I've not made up my mind, however, your post echoes some of my own reflections.

[AnatolyKasparov]

And the PPS to John Trickett who has resigned as well has done so for entirely personal reasons

That is interesting to know, I didn't think Sherriff was the type to cause trouble.

And yes, McKinnell's letter is rather ambiguous isn't it?

Meanwhile, another development in the Alison McGovern "saga" - with a Labour "source" seemingly claiming there wasn't an actual position for her to resign from

[refitman]

Karl Turner has been appointed Shadow AG.

[StephenDolan]

And the PPS to John Trickett who has resigned as well has done so for entirely personal reasons

That is interesting to know, I didn't think Sherriff was the type to cause trouble.

And yes, McKinnell's letter is rather ambiguous isn't it?

Meanwhile, another development in the Alison McGovern "saga" - with a Labour "source" seemingly claiming there wasn't an actual position for her to resign from

Is that as you've heard from a source, or there's been postings elsewhere of this? If the latter, can you link to please?