FlyTheNest

PorFavor wrote:I today received a communication from the Labour Party to use my postal vote
for "Remain". Bit late, that, I thought. I sent off my postal vote a while ago. Unless Labour has some knowledge about the number of postal votes already submitted - or not yet submitted?

Edited to add -

A card\leaflet thingy via post, personally addressed.

Postal voters are flagged up on the register so it's very easy to target campaign materials in that way. They'll probably have mailed everyone who is noted as a Labour supporter (strong or weak) and who has a postal vote.

Then they'll send everyone else one next week?

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 29s29 seconds ago
ICM online has LEAVE 4% ahead

I don't know if they did a phone poll at the same time and that showed Remain in the lead - which seems to be a fairly common pattern.

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 15m15 minutes ago
ICM phone puts REMAIN 10% ahead

Ah, there we are.

rebeccariots2 wrote:

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 15m15 minutes ago
ICM phone puts REMAIN 10% ahead

Ah, there we are.

I'll take that one thanks.

PorFavor wrote:

5m ago 13:24

Lord Butler, the former cabinet secretary, has given an interview to PoliticsHome about the EU referendum. He said that he thought it was possible that the referendum could lead to Labour and the Tories both splitting into pro and anti-EU parties, and that this might be a good thing.(Poltics Live, Guardian)

I think that's called wishful thinking (to put it kindly).

He's not as clever as everyone tells him he is. Ignore.

Became Master of my old college a few years after I left. Doubtless chatted up rich donors very well.

A slight narrowing of the gap from last week's ICM online poll. And a big move to remain from their last phone survey.

(though many found that a bit suspicious at the time, not least because it was taken over a bank holiday period)

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

PorFavor wrote:I today received a communication from the Labour Party to use my postal vote
for "Remain". Bit late, that, I thought. I sent off my postal vote a while ago. Unless Labour has some knowledge about the number of postal votes already submitted - or not yet submitted?

Edited to add -

A card\leaflet thingy via post, personally addressed.

Postal voters are flagged up on the register so it's very easy to target campaign materials in that way. They'll probably have mailed everyone who is noted as a Labour supporter (strong or weak) and who has a postal vote.

Then they'll send everyone else one next week?

Yes - I know they\(now)we are marked on the register. I was just querying how timely is the timing. If you get my drift.

"Countrywide’s analysis of all new lets showed landlords have increased prices by 2.9% since May 2015, with the average monthly rent
for all types of property across Britain rising to £945. In Greater London, the average new rent was up by 0.3% year-on-year at £1,292.

Tenancies coming up for renewal showed a bigger jump in costs, with rents rising by 5.2% over the year, to an average of £907 a
month. In Wales, Countrywide said landlords were charging 9.4% more than in May 2015, with rents at £661 a month."

- Cost of renting one-bed property soars in UK
Workers under 30 pay almost half of monthly wages in rent, while those in London pay even more, says Countrywide

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... oars-in-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my bold)

Renewal tenancies showed rents rising from last year by 5.2%? Landlords charging 9.4% more in Wales? Wages haven't risen in
that same year. The only way this is working is by people sharing a home. It's hard work successfully living with other adults.
What will end up happening is one or more of the home-sharers will end up entirely responsible for debts of the other tenant(s)
who've left the home share and the UK to give bike tours in Vietnam instead.

It is unacceptable that so vital, personal and sustaining a place - a home - is precariously found, insecurely kept and exorbitantly expensive.
I understand this isn't new. The last six years of Tory government have done everything possible to place regular people individually at greater
risk - both private landlord investors, perhaps without adequate pension income and private tenants working for less money with fewer employment
protections. Government is all about divisions, not differences, current Tory government like divisions - rich and poor, haves and have nots. Tory government
have set people against each other and have failed maintaining a functional economy facilitating prosperity shared fairly by all participants creating it. Again.

PorFavor wrote:

Live updates from the campaign trail as David Cameron takes a back seat and Gordon Brown promises a positive case for staying in the EU (Politics Live, Guardian)

Which, in the event of a "Remain" vote, will be presented as, "There you go, Labour. I've done all the hard, spadework. But I thought I'd allow you a look-in to add a few minor, finishing touches. Now push off."

Quite what we do about that is for the future - but I think something should be said at this point to ensure that we make very plain that there is some clear, red water between us and them. It's starting to get a bit "Scotland" for my liking. Still, means and ends, probably.




Edited to swap a "clear" for a "plain"

I think it's down to Labour to save EU membership. Corbyn gets exposure and lots of people think "he's better than I thought", and the internal critics look silly and carping. Corbyn's slow start in the campaign might be a masterstroke.

Cameron is a lame duck whatever happens.

YES2 removing tories ‏@YESthatcherDead 18m18 minutes ago Москва, Россия
#EUref VOTING INTENTION

Most #LEAVE voters will be

Older English poorly educated right wing tabloid readers

Really? Gosh!

It's hard work successfully living with children, too. What I didn't make clear enough was these home-shares won't be made up of family
members, partners and offspring but adults connected by sharing the inability to buy or rent accommodation on their own because they're
not paid properly and UK housing is under-regulated and too expensive.

Skinner will be chuffed-said with Love,I have boringly made my points about this.

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

Live updates from the campaign trail as David Cameron takes a back seat and Gordon Brown promises a positive case for staying in the EU (Politics Live, Guardian)

Which, in the event of a "Remain" vote, will be presented as, "There you go, Labour. I've done all the hard, spadework. But I thought I'd allow you a look-in to add a few minor, finishing touches. Now push off."

Quite what we do about that is for the future - but I think something should be said at this point to ensure that we make very plain that there is some clear, red water between us and them. It's starting to get a bit "Scotland" for my liking. Still, means and ends, probably.




Edited to swap a "clear" for a "plain"

I think it's down to Labour to save EU membership. Corbyn gets exposure and lots of people think "he's better than I thought", and the internal critics look silly and carping. Corbyn's slow start in the campaign might be a masterstroke.


Unfortunately the media is echoing this and are clearly setting up Labour to take the can back if Brexit wins. Whereas it should be - seeing that a large majority of Tory MPs, and voters are for leaving, and Dave's total cockup over having a referendum at all - the Tories taking the damn blame.

The great irony is that if people want lower immigration above all, then Corbyn's labour market would probably do that. It might be a very attractive trade off for lots of people- bit lower growth, more protections at work, higher minimum wage with fewer loopholes.

There'd be some hard spending decisions but I reckon there would be lots of Tories happy with this.

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

Live updates from the campaign trail as David Cameron takes a back seat and Gordon Brown promises a positive case for staying in the EU (Politics Live, Guardian)

Which, in the event of a "Remain" vote, will be presented as, "There you go, Labour. I've done all the hard, spadework. But I thought I'd allow you a look-in to add a few minor, finishing touches. Now push off."

Quite what we do about that is for the future - but I think something should be said at this point to ensure that we make very plain that there is some clear, red water between us and them. It's starting to get a bit "Scotland" for my liking. Still, means and ends, probably.




Edited to swap a "clear" for a "plain"

I think it's down to Labour to save EU membership. Corbyn gets exposure and lots of people think "he's better than I thought", and the internal critics look silly and carping. Corbyn's slow start in the campaign might be a masterstroke.

Cameron is a lame duck whatever happens.

Depends upon the press.

StephenDolan wrote:

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

PorFavor wrote: Which, in the event of a "Remain" vote, will be presented as, "There you go, Labour. I've done all the hard, spadework. But I thought I'd allow you a look-in to add a few minor, finishing touches. Now push off."

Quite what we do about that is for the future - but I think something should be said at this point to ensure that we make very plain that there is some clear, red water between us and them. It's starting to get a bit "Scotland" for my liking. Still, means and ends, probably.

Edited to swap a "clear" for a "plain"

I think it's down to Labour to save EU membership. Corbyn gets exposure and lots of people think "he's better than I thought", and the internal critics look silly and carping. Corbyn's slow start in the campaign might be a masterstroke.

Cameron is a lame duck whatever happens.

Depends upon the press.

The press, the whole press, and nothing but the press, so help them Murdoch.

They'll try and blame Corbyn but a PM resigning a year into his term is going to overshadow everything else.

Remember how Oldham was supposed to go all UKIP and didn't?

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

PorFavor wrote:

5m ago 13:24

Lord Butler, the former cabinet secretary, has given an interview to PoliticsHome about the EU referendum. He said that he thought it was possible that the referendum could lead to Labour and the Tories both splitting into pro and anti-EU parties, and that this might be a good thing.(Poltics Live, Guardian)

I think that's called wishful thinking (to put it kindly).

He's not as clever as everyone tells him he is. Ignore.

Became Master of my old college a few years after I left. Doubtless chatted up rich donors very well.

I detest inadequately educated, talentless, unintelligent, well-connected inheritors of what they've never earned given positions they're
unqualified for. It's no good. Butler's appointment creates suffering and bad management regardless of the job description. He'll screw up
every biscuit run he's sent on.

People with talent are prevented from benefiting themselves, the organisation and society because of this kind of medieval patronage.

PorFavor wrote:

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

PorFavor wrote:I today received a communication from the Labour Party to use my postal vote
for "Remain". Bit late, that, I thought. I sent off my postal vote a while ago. Unless Labour has some knowledge about the number of postal votes already submitted - or not yet submitted?

Edited to add -

A card\leaflet thingy via post, personally addressed.

Postal voters are flagged up on the register so it's very easy to target campaign materials in that way. They'll probably have mailed everyone who is noted as a Labour supporter (strong or weak) and who has a postal vote.

Then they'll send everyone else one next week?

Yes - I know they\(now)we are marked on the register. I was just querying how timely is the timing. If you get my drift.

Aah sorry. I think the main point of these cards is to remind you to vote, rather than to attempt to change your mind. So, as long as there is still time to vote they do make sense to me.

Its arguably not so much what the press will do re Jez if there is a Brexit, but how all too many on his "own" side will react.

Amazing story* in one of the Sunday papers that some staff in Labour HQ burst into tears after the ORB poll came out, and then said it was "Corbyn's fault"

(*I'm genuinely not sure if anybody should believe it, but there *are* people out there really that pathetic so I dunno)

Sir Terry Levy (previously of Tesco fame) supporting "remain". Couldn't he have changed his name to Sir Terry Remainy? Just for the day.

THE LINESMAN
Why are the English being hooligans again?
Look to present British politics for answers — and also to history.

http://www.politico.eu/blogs/the-linesm ... marseille/

Fasinating. And somehow I think - true.

Tubby Isaacs wrote:They'll try and blame Corbyn but a PM resigning a year into his term is going to overshadow everything else.

Remember how Oldham was supposed to go all UKIP and didn't?

On Marr, Cameron said he wasn't going anywhere whatever the outcome...

We had a pair of leaflets delivered today from Britain stronger in Europe.

I had to look at them quite carefully to see which side they were for, many people wouldn't bother.
Why not put VOTE REMAIN in big letters somewhere prominent, preferably on both sides?
Is it just me?

ohsocynical wrote:

Tubby Isaacs wrote:They'll try and blame Corbyn but a PM resigning a year into his term is going to overshadow everything else.

Remember how Oldham was supposed to go all UKIP and didn't?

On Marr, Cameron said he wasn't going anywhere whatever the outcome...

He would say that.

Cameron has to say that. Can't see him staying on after such a defeat, when his party have caused it.

Without media interest in them, Gapes etc are nothing.

Can someone put Rowson's latest twitter rant on here please? It's very good and a bit more serious than usual.

It's been in the news (especially on the BBC) so often - this "people don't know that Labour supports remaining in the EU" business (ie it's a Corbyn cock-up) - that anybody who doesn't know the true situation by now is a completely lost cause anyway. It's beyond tedious.

PorFavor wrote:It's been in the news (especially on the BBC) so often - this "people don't know that Labour supports remaining in the EU" business (ie it's a Corbyn cock-up) - that anybody who doesn't know the true situation by now is a completely lost cause anyway. It's beyond tedious.

It surely reflects media coverage. People know Cameron is Remain, Farage and Johnson Leave. Nobody else has got a look in.

gilsey wrote:Can someone put Rowson's latest twitter rant on here please? It's very good and a bit more serious than usual.

I agree. It's excellent. I am not on Twitter but look at quite a few people's efforts.

In the meantime I am getting more depressed by the minute.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... nicm-polls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical wrote:

Tubby Isaacs wrote:They'll try and blame Corbyn but a PM resigning a year into his term is going to overshadow everything else.

Remember how Oldham was supposed to go all UKIP and didn't?

On Marr, Cameron said he wasn't going anywhere whatever the outcome...

If the vote is Leave, why does he think it will be up to him what happens next?

Maeght wrote:

gilsey wrote:Can someone put Rowson's latest twitter rant on here please? It's very good and a bit more serious than usual.

I agree. It's excellent. I am not on Twitter but look at quite a few people's efforts.

In the meantime I am getting more depressed by the minute.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... nicm-polls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The idea of Farage with an inane grin on his sweaty mug on the 24th if Brexit win is too much to contemplate.
Maybe he'll ride off into the sunset with his ego, and leave us all in peace.

Never mind Farage. It's pub bore Mr Wetherspoons I want to see unhappy on 24th.

Both of 'em, and don't forget Boris Johnson.

Some real charmers on Andrew's blog today. One Kipper type making fun of Gordon Brown because he only has one eye, another wishing death on him. Another wanted David Cameron's head cut off and to watch it rot slowly.

yahyah wrote:Some real charmers on Andrew's blog today. One Kipper type making fun of Gordon Brown because he only has one eye, another wishing death on him. Another wanted David Cameron's head cut off and to watch it rot slowly.

Be fair. That last one's fairly reasonable.

Martin Rowson ‏@MartinRowson 41m

I want my country back! The country that gave birth to the world's 1st working class political party, The Chartists; the country that...

...beheaded its king for tyranny; the country that nationalised the commanding heights of the economy after winning a war against fascism...

...by becoming an egalitarian socialist monarchy with 50% standard rate of taxation. I want my country back: the country that laughs...

...itself stupid at puritans & obsessives & Gradgrinian bores like the Brexiteers; the country that for a century welcomed refugees from...

...foreign tyrannies & dumped totalitarian religion in favour of toleration, that fought for the right to vote & the right to strike, that..

...fought against the ugliness of commerce & saw the espousal of beauty as the ultimate politics, not profit. That's the country I want...

...back, not a net-curtain twitching sour faced land of hating your neighbours & tugging our forelocks to the posh boys poncing around in...

...a private playpen lined with mirrors that some of us once called England. Basically. I want my country back. Fat chance.

I think Rowson has pinned it.
It's what a lot of Brexiters want but are unable to put into words. But, his last two words say it all. Fat Chance. And by voting Brexit they'll be taking us even further away from the dream.

I was pondering whether the wisdom of making the referendum binary, and came across this:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdo ... ion-though

The Scottish independance referendum was a 'binary' in/out question until it became clear that out were likely to win, at which point it effectively got changed into a Max devo/out.
Is the same going to happen to the EU vote, Labour are basically arguing for stay in & change, while the 'exit' route has various scenarios, which possibly could have been in a more useful referendum.
A lot of leave voters main reason to stay seems to be general discontent, focused onto immigrants/migrants, but with little clear idea of what leaving EU would involve.
Some outers (esp.Boris) initially looked to be in favour of a further referendum following negotiations with the EU apparently desperate to keep us.
In the event of an in vote winning there will still be demand for further reforms, If the exit vote wins there's still question of what should we have instead,can see this then being channelled into a number of choices including staying in.

ohsocynical wrote:

Martin Rowson ‏@MartinRowson 41m

I want my country back! The country that gave birth to the world's 1st working class political party, The Chartists; the country that...

...beheaded its king for tyranny; the country that nationalised the commanding heights of the economy after winning a war against fascism...

...by becoming an egalitarian socialist monarchy with 50% standard rate of taxation. I want my country back: the country that laughs...

...itself stupid at puritans & obsessives & Gradgrinian bores like the Brexiteers; the country that for a century welcomed refugees from...

...foreign tyrannies & dumped totalitarian religion in favour of toleration, that fought for the right to vote & the right to strike, that..

...fought against the ugliness of commerce & saw the espousal of beauty as the ultimate politics, not profit. That's the country I want...

...back, not a net-curtain twitching sour faced land of hating your neighbours & tugging our forelocks to the posh boys poncing around in...

...a private playpen lined with mirrors that some of us once called England. Basically. I want my country back. Fat chance.

I think Rowson has pinned it.
It's what a lot of Brexiters want but are unable to put into words. But, his last two words say it all. Fat Chance. And by voting Brexit they'll be taking us even further away from the dream.

That says pretty much everything that I want. But it won't come from leaving. And I don't believe that those who want to leave want that Britain at all. There's not enough hatred of everybody else in Rowson's words to fulfil theirdesires..

Night all. For the sake of maintaining marital harmony I am trying to show an interest in the footie.
Will be watching Italy play and hoping they win. Italia, Italia....

@yahyah

Night night!





Edited to actually say something - even if it is goodbye. I was a bit previous with my "submit".

mbc1955 wrote:

ohsocynical wrote:

Martin Rowson ‏@MartinRowson 41m

I want my country back! The country that gave birth to the world's 1st working class political party, The Chartists; the country that...

...beheaded its king for tyranny; the country that nationalised the commanding heights of the economy after winning a war against fascism...

...by becoming an egalitarian socialist monarchy with 50% standard rate of taxation. I want my country back: the country that laughs...

...itself stupid at puritans & obsessives & Gradgrinian bores like the Brexiteers; the country that for a century welcomed refugees from...

...foreign tyrannies & dumped totalitarian religion in favour of toleration, that fought for the right to vote & the right to strike, that..

...fought against the ugliness of commerce & saw the espousal of beauty as the ultimate politics, not profit. That's the country I want...

...back, not a net-curtain twitching sour faced land of hating your neighbours & tugging our forelocks to the posh boys poncing around in...

...a private playpen lined with mirrors that some of us once called England. Basically. I want my country back. Fat chance.

I think Rowson has pinned it.
It's what a lot of Brexiters want but are unable to put into words. But, his last two words say it all. Fat Chance. And by voting Brexit they'll be taking us even further away from the dream.

That says pretty much everything that I want. But it won't come from leaving. And I don't believe that those who want to leave want that Britain at all. There's not enough hatred of everybody else in Rowson's words to fulfil theirdesires..

And me, but you can't go back. The past is the past.
Now we have dishonourable, reckless, egotists in charge. We have technology that we couldn't even dream of. We are more aware of the rest of the world, and more worldly. We have a huge range of nationalities with their own, different beliefs. They will never think or react like an 'Englishman' but we are richer in many ways because of that diversity.

I hope we might get some of it back with the right people in charge, but it's going to take an enormous effort...

If I disappear for a while - or possibly longer - it'll be because I've been pondering withdrawing from FTN for a bit now as I feel so out of step with the majority view here on the EU ref. It doesn't feel comfortable - and I don't want to get to where I feel more 'othered' than I can cope with and don't want to be here at all.

Definitely no flouncing or one to one sparring - not my style.

mbc1955 wrote: There's not enough hatred of everybody else in Rowson's words to fulfil their desires..

(cJA edit)

Agreed! He's a wholesome human being, he knows himself.

rebeccariots2 wrote:If I disappear for a while - or possibly longer - it'll be because I've been pondering withdrawing from FTN for a bit now as I feel so out of step with the majority view here on the EU ref. It doesn't feel comfortable - and I don't want to get to where I feel more 'othered' than I can cope with and don't want to be here at all.

Definitely no flouncing or one to one sparring - not my style.

I understand where you're coming from, having had to so something similar myself last year, but I hope you'll reconsider and stay. Speaking for myself, I've made my decision and it would take something both massive and unusual to change my mind. I'm certainly not going to attack anyone on here who differs from me, because I trust everyone on FTN to have come to their decisions through thought and consideration, not knee-jerks and lies, and I respect that even if I disagree with it. I appreciate your voice andwould hate to see it withdrawn.

rebeccariots2 wrote:If I disappear for a while - or possibly longer - it'll be because I've been pondering withdrawing from FTN for a bit now as I feel so out of step with the majority view here on the EU ref. It doesn't feel comfortable - and I don't want to get to where I feel more 'othered' than I can cope with and don't want to be here at all.

Definitely no flouncing or one to one sparring - not my style.

I'm sorry for not creating enough space around my posts to help make you feel safe expressing what you'd like to write.

mbc1955 wrote:

rebeccariots2 wrote:If I disappear for a while - or possibly longer - it'll be because I've been pondering withdrawing from FTN for a bit now as I feel so out of step with the majority view here on the EU ref. It doesn't feel comfortable - and I don't want to get to where I feel more 'othered' than I can cope with and don't want to be here at all.

Definitely no flouncing or one to one sparring - not my style.

I understand where you're coming from, having had to so something similar myself last year, but I hope you'll reconsider and stay. Speaking for myself, I've made my decision and it would take something both massive and unusual to change my mind. I'm certainly not going to attack anyone on here who differs from me, because I trust everyone on FTN to have come to their decisions through thought and consideration, not knee-jerks and lies, and I respect that even if I disagree with it. I appreciate your voice andwould hate to see it withdrawn.

Hear! Hear!

citizenJA wrote:

mbc1955 wrote: There's not enough hatred of everybody else in Rowson's words to fulfil their desires..

(cJA edit)

Agreed! He's a wholesome human being, he knows himself.

I think we're talking about two different things here. I respect Martin Rowson, I love his work, even if I no longer find it funny (because of its subject matter, not any diminution of talent on his part) but you don't tear holes of that size and shape in the vile in the way that he does if you haven't got access to some very productive hatred.

yahyah wrote:Night all. For the sake of maintaining marital harmony I am trying to show an interest in the footie.
Will be watching Italy play and hoping they win. Italia, Italia....

Good night, yahyah!

mbc1955 wrote:

citizenJA wrote:

mbc1955 wrote: There's not enough hatred of everybody else in Rowson's words to fulfil their desires..

(cJA edit)

Agreed! He's a wholesome human being, he knows himself.

I think we're talking about two different things here. I respect Martin Rowson, I love his work, even if I no longer find it funny (because of its subject matter, not any diminution of talent on his part) but you don't tear holes of that size and shape in the vile in the way that he does if you haven't got access to some very productive hatred.

Feeling hatred, anger, fear are all part of being a person. Understanding hate, where it comes from, what's causing feelings allows
creative responses to challenges, not dangerous action.