Monday 20th June 2016

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 1:03 pm

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16 ... um-debate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: “Dishonesty on an industrial scale” EU law expert analyses referendum debate

Edited to add discusses consequences /options if we "Leave"

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 1:03 pm

Think it might be that some odd things happening on the betting market.
Someone thinks it may be to do with manipulation foreign exchange market ?

A simple explanation would be appreciated if anyone has one.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 1:16 pm

I hope RR didn't take offence at my post. It wasn't meant in a spirit of antagonism.
She is quite forthright, as am I, in expressing her views and feelings.
It just seemed that PF shouldn't have to censor her feelings.

I suppose that's what we are like though, when it is something close to our hearts we feel sensitive about what others think and say, particularly if we are not actually that certain what we want.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 1:36 pm

yahyah wrote:Fingers crossed OhSo.

Well, whether it's this one or the next one, it won't be long.

So many things to see to...I've started making lists!
Mr Ohso's not going to be much help, so this one's totally down to me although I've always been the main organiser.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 1:43 pm

Jo was killed to 'correct' the polls according to a w****er on Cif.

What is the matter with people ? On today of all days.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 1:59 pm

Lone Wolf in the corner of his room, contemplates on how far to go with his next target

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NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:01 pm

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gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:12 pm

ohsocynical wrote:We have just had a call from the housing association. They have a property that's going to be viewed on Tuesday. If the person doesn't want it, we have first refusal. If she takes it, that means we then go to the top of the list. It means we won't have that long to wait.
I have just rung the guy who did some plumbing for us last year who'd said he was looking for a maisonette. We agreed he'd get first refusal when we wanted to sell. He's still interested which takes a huge weight off my mind. No estate agents or viewings - Phew.

Cupboard sorting must start now. I've been hoarding cardboard boxes for the last year!

That's good news ohso, glad to hear your plumber's still onside.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:13 pm

Bailiffs seize five ambulances after Sussex private provider goes bust. http://www.littlehamptongazette.co.uk/n ... -1-7438969" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:18 pm

I heard the Sayeeda Warsi interview and understand her reasons for not wishing to be identified with the "Leave" campaign. Less clear (totally unclear, actually) were her reasons for now coming down on the side of retaining EU membership.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:23 pm

yahyah wrote:I hope RR didn't take offence at my post. It wasn't meant in a spirit of antagonism.
She is quite forthright, as am I, in expressing her views and feelings.
It just seemed that PF shouldn't have to censor her feelings.

I suppose that's what we are like though, when it is something close to our hearts we feel sensitive about what others think and say, particularly if we are not actually that certain what we want.

or if there's pretty much consensus here, and the opposite view at home. That's hard.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:27 pm

Sayeeda Warsi was quoted as saying Leave propaganda 'may be savvy politics but causes real damage to communities'. She never said a truer word.

Perhaps she could also begin to face up to the damage to communities her party has inflicted over many decades (particularly in her northern stamping ground).

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:27 pm

gilsey wrote:
yahyah wrote:I hope RR didn't take offence at my post. It wasn't meant in a spirit of antagonism.
She is quite forthright, as am I, in expressing her views and feelings.
It just seemed that PF shouldn't have to censor her feelings.

I suppose that's what we are like though, when it is something close to our hearts we feel sensitive about what others think and say, particularly if we are not actually that certain what we want.
or if there's pretty much consensus here, and the opposite view at home. That's hard.

Our Green/anarchist's friend's husband is relieved she's changed her mind.
He's a pro-Europe Lib Dem. We are used to their heated exchanges after a few drinks, but things had got quite tetchy between them on the topic, he confided in us while she was away at her camp.

Can imagine that happening in a lot of homes. It seems more serious than a general election.
A lot of hopes and dreams, or fantasies, are at stake.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:30 pm

PorFavor wrote:I heard the Sayeeda Warsi interview and understand her reasons for not wishing to be identified with the "Leave" campaign. Less clear (totally unclear, actually) were her reasons for now coming down on the side of retaining EU membership.

Providing a Monday headline?
"Warsi, you're on in three, two, one..."

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:39 pm

I think we've always been clear here that the only thing we are allowed to assume about folks' opinions here is that we all dislike the Tories (& I think by extension UKIP

)

I have had moments when I've felt like I was very much against the prevailing consensus here and we just need to be sensitive (as we are being) to that if we want to avoid losing dear friends.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:41 pm

Watching House of Commons paying tribute to Jo Cox. Already very emotional. Wasn't sure they should have done it at first. Now appreciate that our MPs can come together like this.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:45 pm

On the betting thing, I think Smithson is just saying that 4:1 on is a highly risky bet, given the polls don't really support Remain being such an obvious outcome.

Would you really want to risk £40 on the outcome in the hope of winning just £10 given the current uncertainties?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:48 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:On the betting thing, I think Smithson is just saying that 4:1 on is a highly risky bet, given the polls don't really support Remain being such an obvious outcome.

Would you really want to risk £40 on the outcome in the hope of winning just £10 given the current uncertainties?

Thanks Paul.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:51 pm

Hard not to feel grumpy with Cameron. He's trying his best, but when he talks about hate, hard not to remember the London Mayor election.

But in the spirit of the afternoon, I should button it.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:53 pm

yahyah wrote:Hard not to feel grumpy with Cameron. He's trying his best, but when he talks about hate, hard not to remember the London Mayor election.

But in the spirit of the afternoon, I should button it.

I just Tweeted to that effect yahyah

He should have given the briefest of tributes and left the floor to those who can be sincere.

For me too the Sadiq Khan slur was a final straw. Cameron knowingly lied in the House under the cloak of parliamentary privilege and I despise him for it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:55 pm

The House looks full.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:56 pm

Nissan are taking legal action against the Leave campaign over misrepresentation in their leaflet.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 2:59 pm

Nissan has vowed to take legal action against the official campaign for Britain to leave the European Union after the group used the Japanese carmaker's logo in leaflets calling for voters to back Brexit on June 23.

On one "Vote Leave" flyer, the firm's logo appeared next to those of four other major companies including Unilever and fellow carmaker Vauxhall with the message: "Major employers ... have all said they'll stay in the UK whatever the result of the referendum."

Nissan, which says it would prefer Britain to remain in the EU, said it would be issuing legal proceedings on Monday in Britain's High Court to stop 'Vote Leave' from using its name and logo and to "prevent them making any further false statements and misrepresentations concerning Nissan."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 91556.html

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:01 pm

I thought Paul Mason would be one of those on the left calling for Brexit, but he isn't.

''Brexit is a fake revolt........the only thing it guarantees is more right wing Tory control.''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... help-elite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Phew...had started really feeling out on a limb. Nice to know some intelligent people agree.
Was even musing about whether the Labour party is for me if as many members/supporters vote Leave as people are hyping. It feels such a fundamental difference of opinion.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:03 pm

yahyah wrote:I thought Paul Mason would be one of those on the left calling for Brexit, but he isn't.

''Brexit is a fake revolt........the only thing it guarantees is more right wing Tory control.''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... help-elite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IIRC he was a "Yes, leave at some point...but not right now"

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:05 pm

He made an appearance on Bethany Hughes BBC 4 programme about Karl Marx this week.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:05 pm

CorbynSupporters50+ ‏@corbyn50plus 1h1 hour ago

Just a reminder that Jeremy Corbyn is on Sky news channel LIVE for a hour at 6.00 tonight. Write to news@sky.com and tweet #skydebate

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:22 pm

yahyah wrote:I thought Paul Mason would be one of those on the left calling for Brexit, but he isn't.

''Brexit is a fake revolt........the only thing it guarantees is more right wing Tory control.''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... help-elite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Phew...had started really feeling out on a limb. Nice to know some intelligent people agree.
Was even musing about whether the Labour party is for me if as many members/supporters vote Leave as people are hyping. It feels such a fundamental difference of opinion.

It is, unsurprisingly, mostly hype - just look at the actual polling data. John Harris might not be able to find anybody who is going to vote to stay in when he makes his periodic tentative ventures outside the M25 - but unless you think places like Stoke really are going to vote 90% for Brexit, there must be a few.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:23 pm

I didn't mean to imply FTN remain supporters aren't intelligent.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:25 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: So what happens if we leave, and the EU makes us abide by the rules anyway in return for access to the single market?

The 'it's in their interests to give us a good deal' argument sounds like one hell of a gamble with national prosperity.
I might have missed it but have Leave actually come out and said what the preferred option for trading relationship is or have they left it to "let's wait and see what we can get"?

I think the Leave position on post EU everything goes

"Everything will be wonderful! Truly, truly wonderful! We can't even agree between ourselves what will happen, but we know whatever it is, it will be wonderful! And even if it turns out to be a hell on earth, any price is worth paying to get our country back/annoy Cameron/annoy Corbyn/annoy foreigners/upset the (multi)cultural Marxists".

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:30 pm

yahyah wrote:I didn't mean to imply FTN remain supporters aren't intelligent.

Ha!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:34 pm

I beg to the opinion of an EU legal expert as to consequences of leaving,not least the comprehensive reviewing of all laws,giving the Government virtual free rein unscrutinised by Parliamentary oversight.Take our Country back has always had rather sinister overtones in more ways than one to me.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:35 pm

DailySunday Politics ‏@daily_politics 3h3 hours ago
It was a "ridiculous" poster but it's been on the front pages for weeks & no one said anything - @KateHoeyMP
#bbcdp

Oh yes they did !!!

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:35 pm

Some really good speeches in tribute to Jo Cox: Stephen Doughty, Holly Lynch, Alison McGovern, Rachel Reeves to name a few.

A long time since I have been impressed by anything in the House of Commons but I am today.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:37 pm

I hadn't realised that Britain First was Mosley's Blackshirt's slogan.
Pure coincidence, I'm sure.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:41 pm

Maeght wrote:Some really good speeches in tribute to Jo Cox: Stephen Doughty, Holly Lynch, Alison McGovern, Rachel Reeves to name a few.

A long time since I have been impressed by anything in the House of Commons but I am today.

Had to switch off. It made me too sad and too angry.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:44 pm

yahyah wrote:I didn't mean to imply FTN remain supporters aren't intelligent.

You talking to me ????

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Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:45 pm

Just saw Ed Miliband giving Yvette Cooper a hug on the way out of the chamber . They were both looking very upset.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:47 pm

Is that recent Toby ? Looking good.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:49 pm

My son is voting out.
I'm very cross with him.Not because of the fact of it,but because his reasons for doing so are intellectually lazy.
He is a clever boy,had a good education and got a degree,but every one of the reasons he gives for brexit are nothing more than soundbites,e.g 'we are just eu lapdogs','we're fucked either way','Cameron has paid all the experts' etc.
When I asked what did he mean ,how are we lapdogs,he just huffed away.
It's a though he is unable to look any further than facebook comments.
Anyway,my new tumble dryer arrived at 7.30 am.A replacement for the not very old,but possibly likely to catch on fire model I've had for 18months.
Well.blimey.So complicated.TOO MANY CHOICES.I just want to set the dial to x minutes and press start.
Hope it stops raining soon.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:50 pm

That is the Hit Man,where is Her ?

Seriously-looking cool.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:51 pm

yahyah wrote:Is that recent Toby ? Looking good.

Thanks yahyah, alas it was last year - about this time mid June just a few weeks before I started with the infection which ended up hospitalizing me.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:53 pm

It looks like MPs struck generally just the right tone today - even Cameron wasn't bad from what I have heard (though the point about his all too recent behaviour is a fair one)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 3:54 pm

Rebecca wrote:My son is voting out.
I'm very cross with him.Not because of the fact of it,but because his reasons for doing so are intellectually lazy.
He is a clever boy,had a good education and got a degree,but every one of the reasons he gives for brexit are nothing more than soundbites,e.g 'we are just eu lapdogs','we're fucked either way','Cameron has paid all the experts' etc.
When I asked what did he mean ,how are we lapdogs,he just huffed away.
It's a though he is unable to look any further than facebook comments.
Anyway,my new tumble dryer arrived at 7.30 am.A replacement for the not very old,but possibly likely to catch on fire model I've had for 18months.
Well.blimey.So complicated.TOO MANY CHOICES.I just want to set the dial to x minutes and press start.
Hope it stops raining soon.

I think a lot of youngsters now have grown up looking at conspiracy websites as commonplace.

Good luck with the tumble dryer. The rain has stopped here, the builder's managed to finish painting the masonry and is undercoating the porch wood work.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 4:03 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
DailySunday Politics ‏@daily_politics 3h3 hours ago
It was a "ridiculous" poster but it's been on the front pages for weeks & no one said anything - @KateHoeyMP
#bbcdp
Oh yes they did !!!

I'm positive the poster was on Twitter on the morning of the day Jo Cox was killed

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 4:07 pm

yahyah wrote:
Rebecca wrote:My son is voting out.
I'm very cross with him.Not because of the fact of it,but because his reasons for doing so are intellectually lazy.
He is a clever boy,had a good education and got a degree,but every one of the reasons he gives for brexit are nothing more than soundbites,e.g 'we are just eu lapdogs','we're fucked either way','Cameron has paid all the experts' etc.
When I asked what did he mean ,how are we lapdogs,he just huffed away.
It's a though he is unable to look any further than facebook comments.
Anyway,my new tumble dryer arrived at 7.30 am.A replacement for the not very old,but possibly likely to catch on fire model I've had for 18months.
Well.blimey.So complicated.TOO MANY CHOICES.I just want to set the dial to x minutes and press start.
Hope it stops raining soon.

I think a lot of youngsters now have grown up looking at conspiracy websites as commonplace.

Good luck with the tumble dryer. The rain has stopped here, the builder's managed to finish painting the masonry and is undercoating the porch wood work.

I suspect most youngsters look at all MPs as craven liars and not someone they'd want to look up to ... [They'd not be too far wrong on that] and the EU just means more bureaucrats, more of the same. Plus they've been fed a negative view of the EU by the press for years.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 4:07 pm

It isn't just the poster. It's all that calling Labour people traitors, the right wing b*****s that we have forced multiculturalism on them that's led to threats and worse.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 4:09 pm

Double chocolate brownie anyone ?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 4:10 pm

Rebecca wrote:My son is voting out.
I'm very cross with him.Not because of the fact of it,but because his reasons for doing so are intellectually lazy.
He is a clever boy,had a good education and got a degree,but every one of the reasons he gives for brexit are nothing more than soundbites,e.g 'we are just eu lapdogs','we're fucked either way','Cameron has paid all the experts' etc.
When I asked what did he mean ,how are we lapdogs,he just huffed away.
It's a though he is unable to look any further than facebook comments.
Anyway,my new tumble dryer arrived at 7.30 am.A replacement for the not very old,but possibly likely to catch on fire model I've had for 18months.
Well.blimey.So complicated.TOO MANY CHOICES.I just want to set the dial to x minutes and press start.
Hope it stops raining soon.

So is mine

You could kill them at times, couldn't you

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 4:15 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
DailySunday Politics ‏@daily_politics 3h3 hours ago
It was a "ridiculous" poster but it's been on the front pages for weeks & no one said anything - @KateHoeyMP
#bbcdp
Oh yes they did !!!
I'm positive the poster was on Twitter on the morning of the day Jo Cox was killed

Yes, it was last Thursday - Hoey's comment about weeks is nonsense.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... f-migrants

Within hours, Twitter users had pointed out the image’s inadvertent similarity to Nazi propaganda footage of migrants shown in a BBC documentary from 2005.