FlyTheNest

yahyah wrote:And just when you think it can't get worse, our Welsh wannabe Leanne Wood launches her bid for Welsh independence.

The Welsh Lib Dems and Plaid could do well out of Welsh Remain voters.

How was it that Stephen Kinnock managed not to be able to persuade the steelworkers the benefits of staying in the EU?

Cannot be all down to Corbyn.....

On a more serious note. How is the gap in grants, when they are transferred from the EU to the UK gov, going to be bridged. I cannot see any grant application to the EU now being granted but also I cannot see the UK gov even allowing for applications until after we have left. This is going to be a big problem for Universities (especially in STEM subjects).

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Juncker and Farage already had a small spat in the EU Parliament. UKIP are behaving like complete twats here......

Farage needs to know that Juncker is a very influential man and far more powerful than Farage.....

He also said that the EU will not welcome 'uncertainty' - needs clarification 'swiftly'. Not today or tomorrow but soon

Suggests EU want A50 within weeks rather than months

No notification, no negotiation

Looks like he is pretty pissed and that the UK are not going to be pandered to

I know he is not representing the German Government but I guess one of the tactics will be to act in concert on this

Seems to me SH has moved on to the next part of the strategy - you've all had our anger but we grown ups will now translate that into a proper leader and you can all relax again.

SH, as you haven't addressed the central points of who this mythical leader is, why the PLP, who have shown no political nounce up to this point should be believed, what gave them the right to translate the referendum vote into an attack on the legitimate leader of their party as opposed on the debacle created, overseen and completed by those the party itself opposes perhaps you would like to convince me on these points before I accept any legitimacy in your position.

I know it's Nick Cohen and I know it's the Spectator, but this:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/br ... t-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't bother with the comments though. Really, don't.

StephenDolan wrote:I wish the "not Corbyn" team would draw straws to determine who is going to stand. Preferably a couple.
Perhaps the following could be asked for starters?

Umunna
Reeves
Benn
A. Eagle
Jarvis
Cooper

Name a name please.

No name that this lot would come up with would impress me to be honest....not much time for most of them...

yahyah wrote:Tony Blair manages to keep a sense of humour
From the Guardian:

''As the conversation turns to the Middle East Blair is interrupted by a heckler ''You are a liar ! You are going to jail ! You propped up the Saudi funding of 9/11''

Blair stays silent until the man is ejected. ''That's one I haven't heard before'' he says.


It is hard to know who is more tin foil hat, the nihilist left or the nihilist pro-Brexit right.
Don't they usually blame 'the Zionists' or the Israelis for 9/11 ?

Settles very well worn tin-foil hat....

However, in all these cases there are many many unaswered questions....and a lot of people trying to get the 'truth' - Bin Laden was funded and trained by the CIA....and the members of the Saudi Royal family were flown out of the US on the 13th of September when a full and total ban on flying over the US was in place (as a side note to that, there were reports that, because there was no longer a protective layer of airline fuel particles, the temprature acroos the continent rose by 1.5 degrees in the non-flying days) - it's very much easier to paint everyone who's asking questions as a traitorous loony conspiracy theorist so that the whole thing can be shut down.

I'm just trying to say that when something is called a conspiracy theory, it is simply a theory that something other than the 'official' version actually occured....Hillsborough/Orgreave/Daniel Morgan/Phone-hacking/Dodgy dossier & 45 minute claim/PIE HQ covertly hidden in Govt building etc etc etc ad infinitum

Removes tin-foil and hopes (the plural of where I still live just North of Peterborough (a bit more ragged and worn now though)) to have said that without causing too many harumphs

So yesterday, Osborne faced the media and told them "we have a plan". No detail of course, as if the act of saying "we have a plan" in itself constitutes having a plan.

Today he comes out with "why should we have a plan?"

Total moron.

fedup59 wrote:Seems to me SH has moved on to the next part of the strategy - you've all had our anger but we grown ups will now translate that into a proper leader and you can all relax again.

SH, as you haven't addressed the central points of who this mythical leader is, why the PLP, who have shown no political nounce up to this point should be believed, what gave them the right to translate the referendum vote into an attack on the legitimate leader of their party as opposed on the debacle created, overseen and completed by those the party itself opposes perhaps you would like to convince me on these points before I accept any legitimacy in your position.

Watson
Benn
Jarvis
Cooper
Eagle
Starmer

Pretty much anyone not from the Bennite left would be fine by me,

Oh, and as far why this is legitimate.

Corbyn.has shown by his actions before and after the referendum that he is for Leave. I agree with Johnson abd the bulk of the PLP: he deliberately sabotaged the campaign.

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I wish more people had noticed this. Made me feel sick just reading about it.

howsillyofme1 wrote:

StephenDolan wrote:I wish the "not Corbyn" team would draw straws to determine who is going to stand. Preferably a couple.
Perhaps the following could be asked for starters?

Umunna
Reeves
Benn
A. Eagle
Jarvis
Cooper

Name a name please.

No name that this lot would come up with would impress me to be honest....not much time for most of them...

A fairly disappointing and disheartening list, I concede.

Good morfternoon.

I am watching the EU Parliament debate Brexit - so much more civilized than Westminster.......although there is a sense of frustration as well.....I don't think the Brexiters are very popular at the moment

Also, a whinge about the media (again) - in two sources I have now seen it said that Juncker berated Farage asking him 'why he was still here?'. This plays to the victim lie

What actually happened was that Farage interrupted Juncker - shouting some abuse no doubt (twice he did it) - and Juncker, clearly frustrated, shouted back 'why nave you come here - you are for exit?'

This slight change to reporting makes the story reported seem different from the reality

Morning, have finally managed to catch up with yesterdays posts, (but speed read the last few pages),then nearly finished this on tram to work, then got called out of office before drinking coffee & sending, so now a bit rushed.

Anyway, regardless of whether we somehow stay in EU, or fudge some other arrangement, I think the main motivation for a lot of outers involved free movement of people.
Would it be possible to address this partly by a combination of
i) Ensuring migrant workers are paid at least the same as local.
ii) Costs to employers of employing migrant workers is higher by having something along the lines of increased (employers) national insurance contributions.

Same thing could be done in other EU countries.
Freedom of movement would still be maintained, but there would be a disincentive to employ migrants unless there was a good reason (ie. skills needed etc)
Some revenue would also be raised which could maybe be allocated to training people.etc
Probably a bit simplistic?

Ian Katz ‏@iankatz1000 49s49 seconds ago
Sounds like amazing scene in European parl. Juncker to UKIP MEPs: "U were fighting for exit. British people voted for exit. Why are u here?"

He has a point - what are they doing there?

UKIP have made their position over the EU and the European Parliament quite clear over the years yet they expect to just carry on as if nothing happened?

Shameless. Or incredibly dim.

SpinningHugo wrote:

fedup59 wrote:Seems to me SH has moved on to the next part of the strategy - you've all had our anger but we grown ups will now translate that into a proper leader and you can all relax again.

SH, as you haven't addressed the central points of who this mythical leader is, why the PLP, who have shown no political nounce up to this point should be believed, what gave them the right to translate the referendum vote into an attack on the legitimate leader of their party as opposed on the debacle created, overseen and completed by those the party itself opposes perhaps you would like to convince me on these points before I accept any legitimacy in your position.

Watson
Benn
Jarvis
Cooper
Eagle
Starmer

Pretty much anyone not from the Bennite left would be fine by me,

Oh, and as far why this is legitimate.

Corbyn.has shown by his actions before and after the referendum that he is for Leave. I agree with Johnson abd the bulk of the PLP: he deliberately sabotaged the campaign.

Colour me underwhelmed. Next!

I am watching Sky News

I never ever want to hear a Brit call the Germans arrogant

Essentially, they are insisting that we are running this exit process and also suggesting that the EU are running over themselves to speak to us unofficially and not put too much pressure on poor David

SpinningHugo wrote:
Corbyn.has shown by his actions before and after the referendum that he is for Leave. I agree with Johnson abd the bulk of the PLP: he deliberately sabotaged the campaign.

(My edit)

No, he hasn't. He has done no such thing.

He said very clearly and very frequently that he supported the party's stance for Remain. In speeches and interviews, for weeks.

He and McDonnell both did this consistently throughout the campaign, the only caveat being that we should remain and REFORM.

At 08.50 on 23rd.June he Tweeted: "I've just voted to Remain. The EU provides the best framework to meet the challenges of our time".

63% of Labour voters UK-wide voted for Remain. In corbyn's borough, over 70% voted to Remain. This is not "failure".

The only evidence that Corbyn "deliberately sabotaged the campaign" is gossip - emanating from the people who were given the responsibility for leading Labour's campaign for Remain, and who were not able to convince enough Labour voters to support it.

As ever, Hugo, you are spinning. As ever, it is tedious.

I am not a "corbynista", "corbynite", "bennite", whatever - I am no longer even a member of the Labour party.
I cannot belong to a party which is at constant war with itself, and perpetually ignoring the wishes of its own members.

At a time when the Tories are in total disarray, rudderless and at their most vulnerable, and with a PM who is so craven that he refuses to stay on to sort out the chaos he has caused, this is the ideal time for Labour to present a united, powerful, and principled opposition.
Instead, it has chosen to engage in internecine squabbling, evidently expecting its members to be good little children while the grown ups sort out who is going to be the leader of the gang because the leader the children chose is the wrong one.

According to some, you included, Hugo, Miliband was wrong, Corbyn is wrong.....if you know so much better, bloody stand yourself.

Liam Fox to stand for the Conservative leadership (BBC).

Liam Fox to stand for the Conservative leadership (BBC).

Ooo-er. Twice now.

NonOxCol wrote:Regarding the "families divided" piece: mine isn't, thankfully. However, on Saturday I was in such a rotten mood I turned down an evening out with an old school friend, without explaining that this had everything to do with the referendum.

- He is from an old-fashioned family and his father was, basically, a racist. I'm fairly sure he's not, however.
- He works in the public sector but voted Tory in 2015, saying it was "the only option"
- We would have been going to a very white village in mid-Derbyshire. I would have expected to hear something that would have wound me up no end. A few years ago we went to a neighbouring village and a group of lads came in to the pub, asked us where we were from and shook our hands because it was apparently the sort of place which "burns out" the foreigners. But they weren't racist, they said.

I suppose I should mention that my area voted Leave by 60-40. This was actually narrower than I expected, seeing as I still don't know what a Remain poster even looked like, and on a long walk a few weeks ago saw not only a lot of Vote Leave placards, but a disturbing number of giant UKIP 'Take our country back' ones.

The only public place I've been since Friday is the supermarket. I would rather leave it for a week or so, but I'm not sure it will get any better as news sinks in that the immigrants are not all going home on the next DFDS.

You have just jogged my memory.

My niece was worrying about the Leave vote and I thought it was because she and her West Indian husband own a holiday villa in Spain, and didn't know how it would affect their comings and goings.

But it wasn't that was it. I am so sorry.

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am watching Sky News

I never ever want to hear a Brit call the Germans arrogant

Essentially, they are insisting that we are running this exit process and also suggesting that the EU are running over themselves to speak to us unofficially and not put too much pressure on poor David

The only thing our Tory government are running is the EU into the ground.

Seems clear to me that if the Tories can't get off the hook of implementing the result of their tawdry referendum, then Plan B is to take the EU down with them.

The EU is vacillating between allowing the UK time, in case it is possible for us to u-turn, and wanting the UK to go as soon as possible so stability can be re-established before the uncertainty starts to tear the EU apart.

I understand their dilemma. Even if the UK goes quickly, its exit will still hugely de-stabilise the EU. If we have our hiatus and change our minds in the meantime as our economy goes into freefall but are still forced to leave against our own interests because we were foolhardy enough to hold a referendum, it would provide an excellent dis-incentive for any other EU country offering a referendum for domestic political advantage.

Ultimately, the EU can't make us go. The Tory party hold all the cards but are strangely reluctant to do anything with them. I still smell Atlantic Bridge at the bottom of all this - Gove, Liam Fox, Chris Grayling and IDS are all linked and, while Cameron has gone, another Atlantic Bridger, George Osborne, is still hanging around like a bad smell, having a plan, then not having a plan and almost certainly taking his instructions from his powerful friends high up in corporate America and the Tea Party wing of the Republican Party.

Interesting comment from BTL at the Guardian editorial (my bold):

Johnson thought he would lose so he didn't need a plan. He was pulling a stroke to ingratiate himself with the Tory shires and get one over on Osborne (heir apparent). The guy is a fucking imbecile - a child for whom pissing about with power and politics is all a big joke.

The question the media now needs to ask - and it's a serious one - is what has happened to democracy in this country? These morons bleat about taking democracy back from Brussels but in reality we' ve just experienced a soft coup - it bears no relationship to a recognisably transparent, democratic process.

It's no joke, it's actually very dangerous - we have no opposition, no effective government and a race against time to convince investors and the rest of the world that we're going to set all this right. This fucking stupid referendum was not an expression of democracy - it was a first step in completely subverting it and if somebody (even in the Tory party) doesn't get a serious grip on this situation democracy will be further undermined as the unresolved pressures build.

Bravo sir or madam.

And now Liam Fox. Slow handclap for those who wanted their country back.

SpinningHugo wrote:

fedup59 wrote:Seems to me SH has moved on to the next part of the strategy - you've all had our anger but we grown ups will now translate that into a proper leader and you can all relax again.

SH, as you haven't addressed the central points of who this mythical leader is, why the PLP, who have shown no political nounce up to this point should be believed, what gave them the right to translate the referendum vote into an attack on the legitimate leader of their party as opposed on the debacle created, overseen and completed by those the party itself opposes perhaps you would like to convince me on these points before I accept any legitimacy in your position.

Watson
Benn
Jarvis
Cooper
Eagle
Starmer

Pretty much anyone not from the Bennite left would be fine by me,

Oh, and as far why this is legitimate.

Corbyn.has shown by his actions before and after the referendum that he is for Leave. I agree with Johnson abd the bulk of the PLP: he deliberately sabotaged the campaign.

Okay - Don't agree with you but fair enough. So why not a challenge? Presumably those named and their resignations indicate their belief in the rightness of their stance so have they sought, put forward or in any other way put themselves in a position to argue their case and win the leadership. If not, why not.

Oh and I am not a bennite, whatever that might mean.

Taking time to respond / speak this morning, looking after a recalcitrant three year old.

PorFavor wrote:Liam Fox to stand for the Conservative leadership (BBC).

Missed that while writing my comment. My conspiracy theory develops! Liam Fox founded Atlantic Bridge, with the help of Margaret Thatcher.

Farage truly is an appalling creature

I bet the Europeans will be so glad to get rid of us..............

howsillyofme1 wrote:Garage truly is an appalling creature

I bet the Europeans will be so glad to get rid of us..............

And now he has support of the fascists

SpinningHugo wrote:How many who voted Corbyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstream of the Labour party is now required?

Shut up Hugo.

ohsocynical wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:How many who voted Corbyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstream of the Labour party is now required?

Shut up Hugo.

That's what I should have said

danesclose wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:How many who voted Cornyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstreAm of the Labour party is now required?

A patronising "Yes, you've made your point, now run along and let the big boys look after things" type of thing?

And by the way, his name is spelt Corbyn

Hugo mischievously paid £3 and voted for Corbyn last year, or so he reckoned.

Interesting conversation with four leavers - 2 ex labour now UKIP one plaid and one still labour. All pleased about the result but fearful they have made the wrong decision.

I asked why the two kipers had stopped supporting Labour. Gist of the convo

Look at the way they are treating Corbyn, sayd one. They hate us, they hate working people. We choose him, they stab him in the back.

What notice did Blair take of us? We voted labour and all he did was start illegal wars and shit on the people who put him in No 10.

But the country is going into economic meltdown, said I.

We have nothing, the labour guy said, Im a qualified mechanic and I do landscape gardening, Im 50 with a kid who wants to go to Uni - we cant afford that.

Would you vote for Corbyn?

Yes from three labour affiliates.

I prefer him to Leanne wood says the plaid

What about if they get rid?

Fuck em, said the labour supporter, I will never vote labour again.

Come to Plaid

Aye might have to if the scots piss off.

PorFavor wrote:Liam Fox to stand for the Conservative leadership (BBC).

PorFavor wrote:Liam Fox to stand for the Conservative leadership (BBC).

Werritty for Chancellor?

If I were PM, I would appoint a caretaker technocrat to run the government for a while. I would instruct every MP to go home to their constituencies, go round street by street and try to listen to as many of their constituents as possible. I would forbid them from talking to the national media. When Parliament was recalled, every MP in turn would give a 5 minute resumé of what they had learned.

danesclose wrote:

PorFavor wrote:Liam Fox to stand for the Conservative leadership (BBC).

Werritty for Chancellor?

I still think he's Fox's son

"Nigel, you'll be wearing that smile on the other side of your face before this day is done."

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

danesclose wrote:

PorFavor wrote:Liam Fox to stand for the Conservative leadership (BBC).

Werritty for Chancellor?

I still think he's Fox's son

No, lovely Paul.

He's his boyfriend.

utopiandreams wrote:
"Nigel, you'll be wearing that smile on the other side of your face before this day is done."

Reminds me of this scene from Godfather II

[youtube]DjUOBVAbGhQ[/youtube]

Just looking at the last comments last night, I'd moved on to GoT.

Those who are saying there's a risk of disorder if the referendum verdict is ignored, aren't we in that scenario anyway? It's becoming clear to me that either we don't trigger art50, or we do and try to negotiate the Norway option. From the point of view of those leavers motivated by immigration, is there any difference?

Willow904 wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am watching Sky News

I never ever want to hear a Brit call the Germans arrogant

Essentially, they are insisting that we are running this exit process and also suggesting that the EU are running over themselves to speak to us unofficially and not put too much pressure on poor David

The only thing our Tory government are running is the EU into the ground.

Seems clear to me that if the Tories can't get off the hook of implementing the result of their tawdry referendum, then Plan B is to take the EU down with them.

The EU is vacillating between allowing the UK time, in case it is possible for us to u-turn, and wanting the UK to go as soon as possible so stability can be re-established before the uncertainty starts to tear the EU apart.

I understand their dilemma. Even if the UK goes quickly, its exit will still hugely de-stabilise the EU. If we have our hiatus and change our minds in the meantime as our economy goes into freefall but are still forced to leave against our own interests because we were foolhardy enough to hold a referendum, it would provide an excellent dis-incentive for any other EU country offering a referendum for domestic political advantage.

Ultimately, the EU can't make us go. The Tory party hold all the cards but are strangely reluctant to do anything with them. I still smell Atlantic Bridge at the bottom of all this - Gove, Liam Fox, Chris Grayling and IDS are all linked and, while Cameron has gone, another Atlantic Bridger, George Osborne, is still hanging around like a bad smell, having a plan, then not having a plan and almost certainly taking his instructions from his powerful friends high up in corporate America and the Tea Party wing of the Republican Party.

The EU can't make us go but I am starting to see a coalescence of the message - interesting to see what transpires tonight

I have been watching some of the European press etc and I think the UK media is being incredibly blinkered about the reality - they seem to think that we hold all the cards

There is a clarity now of saying that there will be no Single Market without accepting the other pillars. The Tory leadership contenders know that the only way to rescue anything from this is to get into the Single Market - no-one has said otherwise.

Merkel said it clearly to the Bunderstag today and she will not back down on that

If the UK starts delaying too much then I am sure this will become more explicit...perhaps with that little word Schengen being thrown in as the price. Remember they hold all the cards once it is invoked so you cannot push them too far


PS Can the BBC also stop just showing Farage speaking live and ignoring any of the other speakers....they just cut off from an SNP spokesman who was responding to Farage's bollocks so the commentators can talk a bit more about Farage

ohsocynical wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:How many who voted Corbyn last year would now reluctantly accept that, their point having been made, a new leader from the mainstream of the Labour party is now required?

Shut up Hugo.

Don't agree - all opinions should be welcomed.

However, there are ways of making a point and simply springing up from nowhere in order to lecture the people here isn't exactly good form or necessary.

We are where we are and should seek ideas about how to move forward rather than dwelling on who said what and when.

SpinningHugo wrote:

fedup59 wrote:Seems to me SH has moved on to the next part of the strategy - you've all had our anger but we grown ups will now translate that into a proper leader and you can all relax again.

SH, as you haven't addressed the central points of who this mythical leader is, why the PLP, who have shown no political nounce up to this point should be believed, what gave them the right to translate the referendum vote into an attack on the legitimate leader of their party as opposed on the debacle created, overseen and completed by those the party itself opposes perhaps you would like to convince me on these points before I accept any legitimacy in your position.

Watson
Benn
Jarvis
Cooper
Eagle
Starmer

Pretty much anyone not from the Bennite left would be fine by me,

Oh, and as far why this is legitimate.

Corbyn.has shown by his actions before and after the referendum that he is for Leave. I agree with Johnson abd the bulk of the PLP: he deliberately sabotaged the campaign.

Shut up Hugo.

I personally feel that ignoring the referendum verdict is far less damaging than exercising it, which is why I was so thoroughly appalled with yesterday's parliamentary proceedings.

tinybgoat wrote:Morning, have finally managed to catch up with yesterdays posts, (but speed read the last few pages),then nearly finished this on tram to work, then got called out of office before drinking coffee & sending, so now a bit rushed.

Anyway, regardless of whether we somehow stay in EU, or fudge some other arrangement, I think the main motivation for a lot of outers involved free movement of people.
Would it be possible to address this partly by a combination of
i) Ensuring migrant workers are paid at least the same as local.
ii) Costs to employers of employing migrant workers is higher by having something along the lines of increased (employers) national insurance contributions.

Same thing could be done in other EU countries.
Freedom of movement would still be maintained, but there would be a disincentive to employ migrants unless there was a good reason (ie. skills needed etc)
Some revenue would also be raised which could maybe be allocated to training people.etc
Probably a bit simplistic?

Sometimes simple is best.

Why does the BBC still treat Farage as someone of relevance

He has no political power and has been side-lined by Johnson and Gove

His only power now is through continued exposure for him to speak his bile and hatred

The BBC should do the country a favour and concentrate on what the Tories are doing - they are the ones who will be negotiating Brexit in all likelihood

Start asking them how they think they will get Single Market and Free Movement, when A50 will be invoked, if they are going to reverse the austerity that was at the heart of this vote etc etc etc

Will they fuck!

Looks like the heavy lifting is going to be pushed onto the UK Civil Service (who the public have been encouraged to hate and whose existence has been threatened by the Government). Good job they've all got their "gold-plated" pensions to look forward to.

Bloody faceless, unelected bureaucrats.

Willow904 wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am watching Sky News

I never ever want to hear a Brit call the Germans arrogant

Essentially, they are insisting that we are running this exit process and also suggesting that the EU are running over themselves to speak to us unofficially and not put too much pressure on poor David

The only thing our Tory government are running is the EU into the ground.

Seems clear to me that if the Tories can't get off the hook of implementing the result of their tawdry referendum, then Plan B is to take the EU down with them.

The EU is vacillating between allowing the UK time, in case it is possible for us to u-turn, and wanting the UK to go as soon as possible so stability can be re-established before the uncertainty starts to tear the EU apart.

I understand their dilemma. Even if the UK goes quickly, its exit will still hugely de-stabilise the EU. If we have our hiatus and change our minds in the meantime as our economy goes into freefall but are still forced to leave against our own interests because we were foolhardy enough to hold a referendum, it would provide an excellent dis-incentive for any other EU country offering a referendum for domestic political advantage.

Ultimately, the EU can't make us go. The Tory party hold all the cards but are strangely reluctant to do anything with them. I still smell Atlantic Bridge at the bottom of all this - Gove, Liam Fox, Chris Grayling and IDS are all linked and, while Cameron has gone, another Atlantic Bridger, George Osborne, is still hanging around like a bad smell, having a plan, then not having a plan and almost certainly taking his instructions from his powerful friends high up in corporate America and the Tea Party wing of the Republican Party.

I have been warning about the American influence for a long time. Way before the Referendum.

Nigel Farage doing his best to blow any chances that we may have had to make any decent deals with the EU.