Saturday 30th and Sunday 31st July 2016

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:48 am

tinybgoat wrote:
yahyah wrote:From Private Eye, shows nothing is new, just the people change.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoEsKYYWIAAVBV3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The behaviour is strikingly like that of the 'Unseen University' Wizards in Terry Pratchett's earlier books.

Regardless of whether I want Smith or Corbyn to be elected, the main issue for me now is the undemocratic behaviour of part of the plp, in letting it be known that if Corbyn remains in charge they'll try to set up an alternative cabinet or split.
Isn't this the same as threatening voters if they don't vote a certain way (crudely, vote against corbyn, or we'll burn your house down).
It's one thing being aware that your vote might lead to a certain outcome, another thing being actively threatened.
Isn't this breaking some sort of rules or possibly laws?

Edited: apology for 'burn your house down' it's a clumsy analogy, it's more like setting fire to the community tent.(pointed out by smarter partner)

I posted a link to a Corbyn interview yesterday evening. An interview with Owen Jones. At the end he - Corbyn says they will prevail and survive as a party. But minus a small number of MPs.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:55 am

Maeght wrote:Sinon Wren-Lewis

Rebuilding a mass social democratic party?

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ainlyMacro+(mainly+macro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

good article

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:55 am

Some excellent if not extremely obvious news for once.

Plastic bag use drops 85% since introduction of 5p charge

The only downside to it being, why the flipping hell it took so long to happen?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:05 pm

My tea tastes like chemicals. Tap water here used to be the best I've tasted out of a successful, urban water supply. Now it's gone.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:06 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Tbh, Beckett was the Yvette Cooper of her day. Competent but not exactly inspiring.
Hence the parallel with Clinton. Maybe just me but I find Clinton distinctly uninspiring. She may be good at politics but she doesn't have anything that makes me sit up and listen.

You are certainly not alone there.

Still, given who her opponent is - if I lived in the US I have little doubt I would be campaigning for her 24/7 between now and November

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:11 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I think this "threat" is too transparently blackmailing to have that much effect, though.

And nobody has convincingly described how this supposed "semi split" would actually work.

I posted a link about this yesterday. Daily Mirror? It said they [PLP] would want the resources [does that include the income?]and the name,and they'd probably have to go to court to get that.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:13 pm

And the consensus seems to be they would lose any such court case, just like the anti-Corbyn brigade lost this week's.

As with much else, these threats of endless legal action are mostly bluff.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:28 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:And the consensus seems to be they would lose any such court case, just like the anti-Corbyn brigade lost this week's.

As with much else, these threats of endless legal action are mostly bluff.

Some are going to leave, I think that is a certainty. There are too many who have nailed their colours to the mast in gettig rid off Corbyn, and they tend to be the more egotistical and self obsessed among the PLP, so I doubt they have the moral courage to stay. They are also very much in the firing line with reselection coming in 2017, and if the NEC change the rules to bring back mandatory, then they are toast. They know that - August 11th is a big dayy for the Labour party.

I don't think it will be any bigger than the SDP split, and the circumstances are very different, and whilst the SDP had individuals who were highly respected (for all their later sins) Roy Jenkins in particular. The rebels have nobody of that ilk

172 MPs are not going to declare universal independence. The vast majority will suck up the members decision. I think we can all name the ones that are unlikely to...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:29 pm

Here's the link to the article about a party split.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/la ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:39 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Tbh, Beckett was the Yvette Cooper of her day. Competent but not exactly inspiring.
Hence the parallel with Clinton. Maybe just me but I find Clinton distinctly uninspiring. She may be good at politics but she doesn't have anything that makes me sit up and listen.
You are certainly not alone there.

Still, given who her opponent is - if I lived in the US I have little doubt I would be campaigning for her 24/7 between now and November

Campaigning, but with a giant nose peg Clinton Cash ==

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:42 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Some excellent if not extremely obvious news for once.

Plastic bag use drops 85% since introduction of 5p charge

The only downside to it being, why the flipping hell it took so long to happen?

It wasn't "business friendly" ?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:48 pm

Petition No 0802/2016 by Robert Wasteney (British) on the revocation of EU Citizenship rights without his consent and the possibility of preserving those rights for those UK citizens that choose to keep them

https://petiport.secure.europarl.europa ... -keep-them" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 1:49 pm

Temulkar wrote:I don't think it will be any bigger than the SDP split, and the circumstances are very different, and whilst the SDP had individuals who were highly respected (for all their later sins) Roy Jenkins in particular. The rebels have nobody of that ilk

Very good point. I don't suppose it's dawned on the likes of Hunt and Kinnock that Tory voters despise them even more than many Labour ones now do.

Unfortunately, this will leave the Labour Party with the worst of all worlds should Corbyn win. The plotters still there. Still backstabbing. Still leaking and shit stirring in the press. At least if they hived themselves off into obscurity, the party would be rid of them and the only damage would be the fine whine from their sour grapes.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 1:58 pm

@JonnyT1234

I'm very taken with "fine whine from their sour grapes"!

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 2:06 pm

PorFavor wrote:@JonnyT1234

I'm very taken with "fine whine from their sour grapes"!

I can't be sure but it may even [have] been a product of my own fermentation. Probably not though.

Edit: always was a have been.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 2:06 pm

Treatment of ill detainee shackled hours before he died exposed

Home Office report into death of man handcuffed during surgery raises serious questions about vulnerable detainees’ care

He was not deemed to be a risk to the public. He was detained because he had failed to report according to the conditions of his bail.

He was attached by his wrists to a two-metre closet chain for almost his entire stay in hospital. Handcuffs were used for some of the time. He was only released from restraints once and was not unchained until seven hours before he died. (Guardian)

Disgusting. And distressing even to just read it.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... re-he-died

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 2:08 pm

Satire!!!!

http://rochdaleherald.co.uk/breaking-ne ... rivileges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 2:12 pm

I think that Corbyn is going to win the leadership contest (again) despite the efforts of his detractors - it would take some pretty drastic skullduggery now to prevent it.

I have been struck (again) by the sheer volume of people who turn up to hear him speak. In York yesterday, and in Hull today, he's been drawing crowds of thousands.This tour in Yorkshire is mainly outdoors, but he has been packing them in across the country in venues that invariably sell out.
At least one person here has been scathing about this, saying that these crowds are not only not that big but comprised of "cult" followers; however, I can't help wondering whether all those people are pro-Corbyn before they go, it may be the case that a significant number aren't even members.

Our politics is changing, and whatever Corbyn's enemies say, he is largely responsible for that. He's not afraid to go out and about whenever he feels like it, doesn't do stage-managed speechifying, and he is apparently quite content to let the media do what they like while he gets on with gathering support. He is different, and I think people are responding to that.

Whilst I still think Owen Smith is brave to take him on, I don't think he's going to win.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 2:20 pm

Interesting !
Who are the Corbynistas?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36922609" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 2:27 pm

On the way: Multi million pound fines for Brexiteer Andrea Leadsom

https://davidhencke.com/2016/07/30/on-t ... a-leadsom/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For the Eurosceptic Brexiteer is going to have to eat a lot of humble pie and hand over more money than any other minister to the European Commission long after the United Kingdom has quit the European Union.
Her appointment coincided with the latest accounts from Defra with a caustic comment from the National Audit Office once again qualifying them because of their incompetence in handing out £2.3 billion of subsidies to British farmers.

This rap on the knuckles means more than that – as it sets up the UK to have to pay a fortune in fines to the EU. I have written about it in the Tribune http://www.tribunemagazine.org/2016/07/ ... k-farmers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 2:46 pm

Corbyn’s dangerous friends: debunking the myths

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:03 pm

: 13645105_1249448355068214_2399383477252511384_n.jpg (34.85 KiB) Viewed 6422 times

In Hull today. Waiting for Corbyn.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:09 pm

: 13606915_1249448358401547_8725523000321486479_n.jpg (122.17 KiB) Viewed 6414 times

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:27 pm

According to Hadley Freeman today, *all* those people - without exception - are the equivalent of Charles Manson groupies.

Seriously, how low can the Graun sink?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:34 pm

: 13891817_10153831988093014_4550341315679876752_n.jpg (30.38 KiB) Viewed 6372 times

Sorry. This seems to be it for Smith's rally in Liverpool today.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:36 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:According to Hadley Freeman today, *all* those people - without exception - are the equivalent of Charles Manson groupies.

Seriously, how low can the Graun sink?

Charles Manson Groupies? What circles does she mix in?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:38 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -mcdonnell

Labour leadership challenger Owen Smith has been called on to condemn any attempt to split the party if Jeremy Corbyn retains his job.

The shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, expressed concern at reports that some MPs opposed to Corbyn are preparing to elect their own leader and launch a legal battle for the party’s name and assets if Smith loses the election.

“The democratic process is fundamental to Labour party values and all candidates must commit to respecting the outcome of this election,” he said. “We call on Owen Smith to condemn the minority of MPs supporting his campaign who are threatening to subvert the outcome of this election and cause enormous damage to the Labour party.”

It doesn't seem to take into account that the threats will have an effect on votes for & against both candidates.
Or that Owen Smith's campaign seems to be to the left of what would be acceptable to a lot of the plp
(or at least the sourest grapes bits of it).
It will be interesting to see what Owen Smith's response is,
If he is genuine about his stated aims & policies, at some point he's going to have to confront the same problem as Corbyn,
now might be the best time?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:42 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
13891817_10153831988093014_4550341315679876752_n.jpg
Sorry. This seems to be it for Smith's rally in Liverpool today.

Free 99 Flake with every manifesto.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:46 pm

ephemerid wrote:Bankers.

RBS is mostly owned by us. RBS/Lloyd's lost £8 Billion in paper losses recently, so the planned sell-off has been postponed.

Both banks lost a huge amount of value and their share values near collapsed overnight on 24th/25th June to the point where the share values were far below what even Osborne was prepared to swallow as a loss to the state on the one hand so he could give a gift to the wealthy with the other.

Well done Brexiters, the value of the currency and two of the UK's publicly owned assets trashed in a single night. Another triumph for "taking our country back".

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:49 pm

: 13895577_10157114120145577_4340629730368616843_n.jpg (92.39 KiB) Viewed 6326 times

Looking at this image I am struck by the lack of placards or many signs that it's a gathering of avid supporters.
To me it looks like a lot of people have gone along to listen and see for themselves and if they're people who wouldn't normally be that into politics, it gives me hope.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:58 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:I think this "threat" is too transparently blackmailing to have that much effect, though.

And nobody has convincingly described how this supposed "semi split" would actually work.
I posted a link about this yesterday. Daily Mirror? It said they [PLP] would want the resources [does that include the income?]and the name,and they'd probably have to go to court to get that.

They would seem to be after the income from Short money. Any other income and property owned by the Labour party would be a different matter. I guess it boils down to whether the courts would agree that the Labour party is essentially a few dozen (at most) MPs, their spads and other hangers on and whatever (probably small) fraction of the membership prepared to jump ship with them or the half million+ members and affiliated unions.

I'm tempted to conclude that for some members of the PLP at least, getting a Labour government elected is simply not what they are about. Keeping themselves in importance and comfort and a Tory government in office is more their style. At least, that's what the objective effect of their deliberately very public campaign against Gordon Brown, Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn amounts to.

I also suspect some would welcome being expelled because it would give them yet another opportunity to whinge about how poor, powerless, influence-free and ever so reasonable and moderate MPs like themselves are being bullied and victimised by a man (and his mob of thugs) they've left no stone unturned or trick unused to overthrow, undermine and demonise.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:01 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Treatment of ill detainee shackled hours before he died exposed

Home Office report into death of man handcuffed during surgery raises serious questions about vulnerable detainees’ care

He was not deemed to be a risk to the public. He was detained because he had failed to report according to the conditions of his bail.

He was attached by his wrists to a two-metre closet chain for almost his entire stay in hospital. Handcuffs were used for some of the time. He was only released from restraints once and was not unchained until seven hours before he died. (Guardian)
Disgusting. And distressing even to just read it.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... re-he-died

Brings back memories of that excellent minister for prisons and "commited Christian" Ann Widdecombe and her insistence that it was quite right that female prisoners should be handcuffed to their bed while giving birth in case they decided to make a run for it half way throug the proceedings.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:10 pm

This comment - not mine - is exactly what I'm beginning to think.

>>>The so called 'senior' MPs who are briefing about splitting the party - wanting to claim the name and the assets - because they think Corbyn will win again are really pissing all over Smith ... They're showing their nasty disloyal side to him before the contest has really gone anywhere. I hope he - and many of the other MPs who resigned and signed up to no confidence in Corbyn - at the behest of these 'senior' MP's take note of how they behave. Do they really want to throw their lot in with people who seem to have no proper allegiance to anyone - prepared to walk all over others to get their way?<<<

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:13 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ince-cable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Theresa May raised objections to the Hinkley Point nuclear power deal during the coalition government, the former business secretary Sir Vince Cable has claimed in remarks that will throw fresh doubt over the project’s future.

Cable said May as home secretary had been unhappy about the “gung-ho” attitude to Chinese investment of the former chancellor, George Osborne.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:16 pm

Willow904 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ince-cable

Theresa May raised objections to the Hinkley Point nuclear power deal during the coalition government, the former business secretary Sir Vince Cable has claimed in remarks that will throw fresh doubt over the project’s future.

Cable said May as home secretary had been unhappy about the “gung-ho” attitude to Chinese investment of the former chancellor, George Osborne.

I wonder if she will backtrack on the ARM takeover ?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:16 pm

Willow904 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ince-cable

Theresa May raised objections to the Hinkley Point nuclear power deal during the coalition government, the former business secretary Sir Vince Cable has claimed in remarks that will throw fresh doubt over the project’s future.

Cable said May as home secretary had been unhappy about the “gung-ho” attitude to Chinese investment of the former chancellor, George Osborne.

"Outsource it! I don't care who to...the Chinese? Yeah, why not! Anyone but the British government"

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:24 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Corbyn’s dangerous friends: debunking the myths

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Many thanks Ohso for the link to this excellent article and also for the photos today.

That big crowd can't all be young members of Momentum can they?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:40 pm

Farmers realise subsidies outside EU might be different.

Speaking in a House of Lords debate, John Montagu said many farmers had voted “without understanding the consequences” and were now in dismay over news they may not receive the same level of payouts made under the EU's Common Agricultural Policy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/fa ... 63996.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:43 pm

"At the moment, 73 per cent of the UK’s total agri-food exports are to other EU countries,"

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:45 pm

Maeght wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Corbyn’s dangerous friends: debunking the myths

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many thanks Ohso for the link to this excellent article and also for the photos today.

That big crowd can't all be young members of Momentum can they?

No. They just look like a bunch of ordinary people going along to see what it's all about and taking the chance to see him in the flesh, to me. There'll be a lot of disenfranchised people there, and some who won't even watch a party political broadcast, because 'they're all alike'.

Hopefully he'll convince some back into the fold.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:53 pm

More on march for unity/Europe sept 3
https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/campaigns/38 ... for-europe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 5:27 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
13891817_10153831988093014_4550341315679876752_n.jpg
Sorry. This seems to be it for Smith's rally in Liverpool today.

Oh - I think that's a pity. (Although I actually had to peer closely to see if was just a long queue for an icecream van.)

Edited - typo

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 5:34 pm

@tinybgoat

Whoops! I've just seen your "99" post. My only excuse is that I'm trying to catch up and, for some reason, have opted to do so by reading the posts in backwards order.

Edited to add -

More commonly known as reverse order.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 5:51 pm

: Con7OMdW8AQZyqU.jpg (103.11 KiB) Viewed 6116 times

This is the photo of Smith's rally posted by Smith. Images from this angle also shown on ITV news.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 5:58 pm