Wednesday 3rd August 2016

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:36 pm

Further to the Ukip leadership contest (mentioned above by RogerOThornhill) -

The exclusion [of Steven Woolfe from Ukip's leadership contest] is likely to lead to a battle over the future of the party by those loyal to the previous regime of Farage and others who want it to pursue a new direction.

The backlash started immediately as three members of the national executive resigned – Victoria Ayling, Mick McGough and Ray Finch. In a joint letter, they said members of the national executive committee (NEC) had placed “personal ambitions, loyalties and jealousies at the heart of their decision-making” and displayed an “escalating megalomania”. (Guardian - my emphasis)

That "escalating megalomania" sounds so unlike Ukip. I hope Nigel Farage sees sense and decides that he's seen enough of his family, done enough fishing etc and decides to un-resign. Again.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... rom-ballot

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:39 pm

Does anyone here remember Clive Jenkins? Every time I see a picture of Owen Smith, into my head pops Clive Jenkins.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:40 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... dorsements" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Donald Trump will not endorse Paul Ryan as Republican splits widen
Republican nominee also refuses to back John McCain, despite being endorsed for presidency by both men

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:43 pm

Yes,contributed to the Bullock Report,retired to Tasmania,I think,I have a store of such useless information.He was more ample

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:43 pm

I was asked by the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party to examine the allegations of antisemitism that arose surrounding Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) after the resignation of a former co-Chair.

This was followed by a number of allegations of incidents of antisemitism against members of the Labour Party, including against one Member of Parliament and a member of the National Executive Committee.

I was also made aware that there was at least one case of serious false allegations of antisemitism which was reported to the police.

The context of the wider allegations means that I had to consider the matters of Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) in that broader landscape. My recommendations will have a positive impact, not only on OULC, but on Labour clubs and the Labour Party more generally.

I do not believe that that there is institutional antisemitism within OULC. Difficulties however, face OULC which must be addressed to ensure a safe space for all Labour students to debate and campaign around the great ideas of our movement.

It is not possible to simply make recommendations about the OULC without considering how our Party itself responds to these events. I am therefore, today making recommendations about how Labour tackles antisemitism to minimise the chance of any repetition of incidents such as those described at OULC.

- Baroness Jan Royall
Allegations of anti-Semitism Oxford University Labour Club

http://www.thejc.com/images/Report_OUC_Final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The report linked above doesn't have the date it was published on it.

The JC has obtained Baroness Royall’s full report into allegations of antisemitism among Labour-supporting students at Oxford University.

It finds that members of the Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) did engage in antisemitic acts.

"There have been some incidents of antisemitic behaviour," Baroness Royall writes.

"Some Jewish members do not feel comfortable attending the [OULC] meetings, let alone participating," she added.

Baroness Royall said some of the antisemitic activity members engaged in was conducted outside the group's structure, potentially limiting OULC's scope to act.

But she adds: "I regret that the incidences of antisemitism were not reported to any authority, including the Labour Party, as soon as the allegations were made. In some cases this makes it very difficult to verify."

- Baroness Royall report reveals Oxford Labour students engaged in antisemitism
August 3, 2016

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/16146 ... tisemitism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:45 pm

HindleA wrote:Yes,contributed to the Bullock Report,retired to Tasmania,I think,I have a store of such useless information.He was more ample

I think he came back from Tasmania. The devil . . . .

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:52 pm

PorFavor wrote:Further to the Ukip leadership contest (mentioned above by RogerOThornhill) -

The exclusion [of Steven Woolfe from Ukip's leadership contest] is likely to lead to a battle over the future of the party by those loyal to the previous regime of Farage and others who want it to pursue a new direction.

The backlash started immediately as three members of the national executive resigned – Victoria Ayling, Mick McGough and Ray Finch. In a joint letter, they said members of the national executive committee (NEC) had placed “personal ambitions, loyalties and jealousies at the heart of their decision-making” and displayed an “escalating megalomania”. (Guardian - my emphasis)
That "escalating megalomania" sounds so unlike Ukip. I hope Nigel Farage sees sense and decides that he's seen enough of his family, done enough fishing etc and decides to un-resign. Again.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... rom-ballot

All people will see is 'NEC' without checking which party it belongs to, feeling an aversion for further hostilities and switching off.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:55 pm

PorFavor wrote:
HindleA wrote:Yes,contributed to the Bullock Report,retired to Tasmania,I think,I have a store of such useless information.He was more ample
I think he came back from Tasmania. The devil . . . .

Devil eh ? Is this him ?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ture-smile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:56 pm

PorFavor wrote:Does anyone here remember Clive Jenkins? Every time I see a picture of Owen Smith, into my head pops Clive Jenkins.

I think he has a standard issue face, he reminds me of both John Smith and (if you take the beard off & put large glasses on) Robin Cook, and now (having looked up photos of him) Clive Jenkins as well.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:59 pm

The JC has obtained a copy of the Royall report which was suppressed by Labour’s National Executive Committee in May.

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/16147 ... tisemitism

There's no date on the report linked in the publication above and linked here http://www.thejc.com/images/Report_OUC_Final.pdf
Has the Labour Press website below been altered? The publication date of the report for anyone to look at it is below. It's May.

Labour Press
Baroness Royall OULC Inquiry by labourpress

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1445054 ... ll-inquiry
May 17, 2016 (4:08 pm)

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 1:59 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
frightful_oik wrote: Nothing whatsoever to do with PLP of course. If only we all were intellectual Giants!
Entirely predictable that the PLP would react as it did. This is whay happens when you elect a leader with next to no Parliamentary support and the active hostility of most. They gave it a go but there was bound to be a break point, it just happened to be the EU.

It was pointed out at the time that it couldn't be made to work.
The article you're quoting is saying that it will have to work irrespective of who wins. Otherwise it'd be saying that a split is inevitable, not that it can't happen at all.

not at all. What it says is that if there is a split FPTP would mean the annihilation of both. So they can't split.

Which means they keep fighting, on and on and on. We'll be back here next year. An interesting question is when the PLP try to seize Parliamentary control (the semi-split).

There is no good way forward. It is too late now.

That is one reason why I am not as bothered as I was last summer (or back in 2010). Back then it really mattered for the outcome of the next General Election. Now it doesn't. I can't see any good path forward (though some are admittedly worse than others). Another reason why I quit.

If I could predict a really long game where the Labour party was replaced by another functioning social democratic party I'd back that. But I can' see how it could be done. So, we carry on, tied together and hating it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 2:02 pm

Do a pretty good impression of the cartoon character,I am doing it know,obviously you are not getting the full effect.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 2:06 pm

Pretending to be your favourite cartoon character another good one.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 2:37 pm

Wondering if I've got a standard issue face.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 2:39 pm

If I have it has been adapted to suit,a groove in bottom lip for permanent fag fixture etc.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 2:47 pm

Right Private Eye Crossword,very rude,still has digs at Archer Murdoch Cap'n Bob ,the Queen is Brenda,Charles is Brian,Phillip is Keith,a long running joke stemming from a piss take of the '69 TV documentary,making them working class,I think Diana joined later as Cheryl.Ed Balls is used a lot for obvious reasons.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:11 pm

HindleA wrote:Wondering if I've got a standard issue face.

Do you see Owen Smith when you look in the mirror? If so then yes

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:13 pm

Brexit could herald end to British fruit and veg sales, producers warn
Many of the country’s biggest producers say that without a scheme for seasonal workers, homegrown produce would all but vanish from the shelves

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ucers-warn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:24 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 69541.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
bloke who predicted Brexit would happen predicts what will happen next

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:25 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
HindleA wrote:Wondering if I've got a standard issue face.
Do you see Owen Smith when you look in the mirror? If so then yes

On that basis then not,although I've only got a few seconds before it shatters to pieces in disgust/shock.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:26 pm

In a new piece following the referendum result, Mr Van Reenen blamed the stigmatisation of foreigners, the eurosceptic and anti-immigration stance of large sections of the British press and also “the worst [politicians] in living memory” for the result.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... listen-to/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:28 pm

"The Tsunami of Bile". Working title for the next James Bond film?

Edit - that was meant as a response to tinyclanger2.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:28 pm

Sorry no links just stuff I've noticed recently. Refugee children with family in Britain remain stranded in Calais, the Home Office appealed and overturned a court ruling granting asylum to three others in Calais, 20000 further refugees that Cameron promised asylum are unlikely and the Australian family in Scotland, including a child that was born here, is ordered to leave. Theresa May holds EU citizens to ransom, not least nurses working in the NHS who simply don't earn enough to be classified as worthwhile, contributory members of society. She's as lovable as ever.

Meanwhile science projects, research and academia, business, banking and finance are all suffering the fallout of Cameron's Folly, the man who ran away but not before compiling his chumocracy list and rewarding aides with taxpayer funds just because he could. He deserves opprobrium for the lives he has blighted and the ongoing damage to our national interests, but educated people still sing his praises. The msm have nothing better to do than attack Labour's leadership candidates, ably assisted by one in particular who should know better. I dare not criticise said person by name lest I be accused of homophobia or misogyny, I could add that I myself was sleighted this morning... and Corbyn never said a word! Sorry Jeremy you probably did but I just wasn't listening.

In other news young girl tells truth. I ask a female shop assistant for help and my grandaughter interjects to tell her that "Grandad loves ladies."

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:28 pm

Migration Observatory says dealing with residence claims from Europeans settled in Britain using existing procedure would take more than a century
(Graun)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:30 pm

Put it this I went to this hall of mirrors place,everybody was in hysterics,except the one they were laughing at was a non distorting mirror.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:31 pm

Speaking of fags in lips, A, I remember a bloke at a place I once worked who chain smoked the whole day only removing his fags to light the next one. Half his face was nicotine stained. I trust you're not that bad.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:38 pm

My pins aren't bad,if I say so myself,the knees dropping in and out of position is quite enjoyable with the accompanying clicking,which of course,is a handy training guide as to pace,between snail and tortoise speeds.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:47 pm

I invoke whatever amendment it is so as not to incriminate.In truth I would be,but for inability to smoke at work ex.breaks,the fact that I always go outside ,and use them.as sort of award system/incentive to exercise,do specific tasks etc.

#outside can mean head outside hanging out of a window.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:53 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Brexit could herald end to British fruit and veg sales, producers warn
Many of the country’s biggest producers say that without a scheme for seasonal workers, homegrown produce would all but vanish from the shelves

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ucers-warn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is disastrous on so many levels
Shipping in food from way over yonder using fossil fuels is hard on the environment
Eating food grown, raised and/or otherwise produced domestically is good for environment and people
Diversifying crops and farming in smaller areas maintained by many helps prevent the horror of single crop failure
Picking fruit and vegetables is hard work
I recommend everyone doing it regularly if you're physically able
Many hands make lighter work

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 4:25 pm

Fruit-picking used to pay off student debt. I gather it just don't pay enough these days.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 4:29 pm

There was something on tv a while ago about the East End families who used to go down to Kent to hop pick for not much dosh.. That was in the days when the working class knew their place

sputnikkers · Post by **sputnikkers** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 4:41 pm

citizenJA wrote:...
There's no date on the report linked in the publication above and linked here http://www.thejc.com/images/Report_OUC_Final.pdf
Has the Labour Press website below been altered? The publication date of the report for anyone to look at it is below. It's May.
...

I wouldn't suggest there is evidence that the site was altered! If you look at the source of the Labour Press release you can see that it was published "May 17, 2016 (4:08 pm)" and was mentioned on May 18th but not linked to by:
Investigations, training and the question of life bans: Jan Royall’s recommendations over Oxford University Labour Club furore | LabourList
But that article starts with:

This is the executive summary and recommendations of Baroness Royall’s report into allegations of anti-Semitism at Oxford University Labour Club. The full report was presented to the NEC yesterday but has not been made public.

So while this 'particular version' might well have been published then it was 'buried in plain site' by uploading it to Scribd. I'm not sure the text of such uploads can be crawled by Google or other search engines. I know you can find articles but not necessarily by search strings from within text. Others may know offhand.

Also to back up the date on the Labour Press site:
I did find three other 'JUNE-dated' sources with links to the Scribd report (use custom search between particular dates to show (first?) indexed). Two (Palestinian Solidarity Campaign (8th June) & The Board of Deputies of British Jews(10th June)) were citing the Royall Report link in their own responses and submissions to the Chakrabarti Inquiry so were probably given other links to be included within their own 'pdf's. Another shows a Notey.com page for 30th June but I cannot find it on their site. Sometimes happens! Especially when things are rolled up into other later stories.

I also did a search for a longer exact 'text string' extract to see if the Scribd report came up (as a quick check on the above question - still don't know for sure?). Surprisingly there was a hit dated for, 19th May. Unfortunately it is to a (special interest?) 'Socialist, anti-Zionist, anti-racist' Blog by Tony Greenstein (not linking myself unless you want me to(?) but easily found), who stated:

Zionist Royalle Finds What She Wanted to Find
Baroness Royall Inquiry into ‘Anti-Semitism’ Gives Carte-Blanche to Labour’s Witch-hunters

I didn't see a direct link to the report there but direct quotes from it.

<Last edit: Added here for completeness in one place - apologies for those who miss it

Mr Greenstein made his own submission to Chakrabarti (according to the following) so he might well have been told about the Report on the site or been given alternative access, or ...?
Submission-to-the-Chakrabarti-Inquiry-into-Antisemitism.pdf >

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 4:43 pm

Patient choice.

On seeing the doctor AGAIN on Monday after they'd phoned me on Friday, I am offered the choice of two hospitals for further examination. Naturally I choose the nearer. Now I have a letter to which I must respond offering me the same two hospitals but two different departments for one of them. Meanwhile more tests at yet another department on Friday. My doctor must think me seriously afflicted (joke for the avoidance of doubt, especially in Toby's company... and Mr. ohso I guess should he look in).

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 4:46 pm

Sorry to hear you're having to be prodded and poked UD.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 4:54 pm

Anyone of a nervous disposition - don't watch this

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 70166.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 4:57 pm

yahyah wrote:Sorry to hear you're having to be prodded and poked UD.

Thanks, yahyah. I must admit I told my doc she was no longer my friend even if she means well. Nothing cancerous but at least I'm now being treated for what was found.

'And one for A since I gave up the fags in September (I think). I keep being asked if I'm a smoker. "I suppose you could call me a recreational smoker." Surprisingly nobody tells me to quit these days, it just raises a smile.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:00 pm

Good if long read from Helen Lewis

http://www.newstatesman.com/2016/08/exp ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She is bending over backwards to be fair. More so than I would be.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:01 pm

refitman wrote:Oh, while my brain is still functioning properly, and the gin hasn't fully kicked in, a thought on people announcing they are taking a break/leaving. I know that some people on here have health problems and a lot of members on here (including me) have worried in the past when posters have disappeared for extended periods. Taking this into consideration, a mention of a break from the boards isn't necessarily a bad thing

I'm still around. Been mainly sat at the back of the class, observing and such.

Bought a new tablet over the weekend, been having fun (not) reinstalling the apps I remember from my old one. Plus a few new ones that for instance tell me what the weather is doing outside, such a joy not having to look out of the window.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:03 pm

Glad to see that sense of humour is still intact Toby.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:06 pm

yahyah wrote:Glad to see that sense of humour is still intact Toby.

In other news young girl tells truth. I ask a female shop assistant for help and my grandaughter interjects to tell her that "Grandad loves ladies."

UD gets my vote for Quote of the Day

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:06 pm

Thought you would have had enough of tablets without buying more(sorry)

Good to hear from well not actually hear,but you what I mean.Just had a short burst of torrential rain,here,still sunny and clammy.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:11 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Good if long read from Helen Lewis

http://www.newstatesman.com/2016/08/exp ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She is bending over backwards to be fair. More so than I would be.

Yes, because dismissing ALL his supporters as delusional idiots and paranoid cultists has been an amazing success thus far hasn't it

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:13 pm

On the subject of doctors I once had a cyst, much like the one Jean-Claude Van Damme has on his forehead, removed by the South African doctor with the three syllable name. My favourite doctor didn't want to work on such a prominent place but wanted to attend. Several injections later and so it began. Not wanting to flinch in the presence of a lady I put on my brave face and refused to even bat an eyelid. I just assumed that was how it was.

"Are you alright?" my butcher demands.

"Not really it bloody well hurts, a really hot searing pain."

"I'd better give your some more anaesthetic, it's not supposed to. I knew something was wrong, you're as white as a sheet."

Edit: repetition!

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:14 pm

yahyah wrote:Glad to see that sense of humour is still intact Toby.

Thanks yahyah.
I spent the best part of a day trying to get the BBC iplayer to stream news but it was having none of it. Most video nowadays is moving to a thing called html5 , which is safer and more reliable than the previous system of Adobe Flash Player.

Of all the tablets in all the world, the model I have has incompatible codecs with the BBC for html5, so I had to install an old version of Flash player just to watch the Classic albums episode from last week about Pet Sounds.

There are other apps now fortunately that host a multitude of tv stations live streaming such as filmon and mobdro.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:14 pm

sputnikkers wrote:
citizenJA wrote:...
There's no date on the report linked in the publication above and linked here http://www.thejc.com/images/Report_OUC_Final.pdf
Has the Labour Press website below been altered? The publication date of the report for anyone to look at it is below. It's May.
...
I wouldn't suggest there is evidence that the site was altered! If you look at the source of the Labour Press release you can see that it was published "May 17, 2016 (4:08 pm)" and was mentioned on May 18th but not linked to by:
Investigations, training and the question of life bans: Jan Royall’s recommendations over Oxford University Labour Club furore | LabourList
But that article starts with:
This is the executive summary and recommendations of Baroness Royall’s report into allegations of anti-Semitism at Oxford University Labour Club. The full report was presented to the NEC yesterday but has not been made public.
So while this 'particular version' might well have been published then it was 'buried in plain site' by uploading it to Scribd. I'm not sure the text of such uploads can be crawled by Google or other search engines. I know you can find articles but not necessarily by search strings from within text. Others may know offhand.

(cJA edit)

I'm sorry I worded my post that way. I don't think the Labour press website has been tampered with.

I appreciate the information you've posted on flythenest. The links and data lead me to sources I may not have otherwise found.
Usually I can sort it out. Just now I'm having trouble keeping up with it all. Thank you for clarifying information for me above.
In another post, you wisely suggested waiting for more information because we may not have access to the facts yet.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:17 pm

yahyah wrote:There was something on tv a while ago about the East End families who used to go down to Kent to hop pick for not much dosh.. That was in the days when the working class knew their place

My Grandad's family (Mitchells, Walworth) used to go down to Kent hop picking, when he was young.
He instructed my mum on the importance of voting,
"You must vote, and when you do, you must vote Conservative"
Still proudly remembered his roots, though.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:18 pm

http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/Pu ... s-spending" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DWP trialling use of blockchain to track benefit recipients’ spending
New data sharing technology could be used by the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) to track benefits’ recipients spending, Socitm has said, depending on the outcome of a new pilot.
In a new briefing on blockchain, a data-sharing system first used in the Bitcoin online currency, Socitm, the representative organisation for local authority IT leaders, says that it is already being used by organisations without public access.
It says that the DWP is part of a consortium piloting a system that tracks benefits claimants’ receipts and spending patterns in order to subsequently offer financial management advice to those who would benefit from it, in what Socitm calls “a not uncontroversial move”.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:22 pm

I heard a late night Radio 4 programme about blockchain.
It was a mixture of scary and almost impossible to understand. Hearing how many libertarians are keen on it gave me the heebie jeebies.

Edited to change the capital b at the beginning of blockchain.
Am not up to speed with this new fangled stuff.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:22 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Good if long read from Helen Lewis

http://www.newstatesman.com/2016/08/exp ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She is bending over backwards to be fair. More so than I would be.
Yes, because dismissing ALL his supporters as delusional idiots and paranoid cultists has been an amazing success thus far hasn't it

The key point is the "may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb" one. If you make compromises you hate and still lose, why bother making the compromises?

And the comparison to a cult is not wholly fanciful, see her point 11. "Cult" is just an insulting way of putting that point. Who likes being part of the 4.5%? being part of a crowd is overwhelming (which is why crowds are so prominent in Shakespeare)

Nothing to be done now. Labour might be back in power someday, but not before 2025 by the looks of things, and never again as a majority party. No point fighting amongst ourselves, like bald men over a comb.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 5:24 pm

Stop pissing money away on crap like this and on attempts of denial which cost way in excess of money supposedly saved and give people an adequate amount.There always will be people not very good at managing money,it ' overwhelmingly is not the people receiving benefits or wasn't until you make it increasingly so to prove your circular bollox correct.As Sir Bob Give quietly requested give them the f####### money.