FlyTheNest

RobertSnozers wrote:
Correlation does not imply causation. Labour has elected at least two female deputy leaders since the membership got the ability to vote in these contests IIRC. And might I add that your repeated characterisation of the Labour membership as sexist is one of the things I do not believe you can support and therefore would be grateful if, having stated your opinion on the matter for what it is worth, desist from asserting it again?

I don't consider it to be one of the opinions that should be censored, no. I agree with this.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/fe ... exism-left" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The vitrilol heaped upon the likes of Phillips, Creasy, and Eagle compared to men of comparable status also makes the point.

Another way of showing it is that Burnham, who is utterly hopeless in my view, outpolled Cooper, who isn't.

Interesting question occurs just before I go swimming...

What responsibility do party leaders or executives have to develop potential future party leaders? Other organisations have leadership development programmes / mentoring etc - should this apply (if not overtly advertised as such) to parties too?

Willow904 wrote:

Lost Soul wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote: On the morning of 24th he said it both on tv and radio more than once. How he can deny now having said it is bizarre to me. I know he has backtacked, and I suppose he can say he was 'misconstrued' but it is very odd to deny having said something he clearly did, and which was the immediate trigger for the entire challenge.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was wondering if I'd imagined it - but no...

But did he deny it in the debate?

He seemed to say that that is not what he meant - and that he should have, on reflection, been a bit more careful with the wording.

It felt like being punched in the stomach when I heard it that morning - so yes he should be a lot more careful with his choice of words.

HindleA wrote:http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/do ... 0-tragedy/


Documents show WCA suicide death mirrored 2010 tragedy

Wtf, A. The DWP shelling out £2,700 in benefits after his death. Not that I'm going to go into detail but after my wife's brain haemorrhage, totally against the grain I did look into suing the NHS for compensation because of the failings of a doctor who first attended to her, albeit I feel I let her down too. However on finding that it would take years I never bothered because I wasn't interested in personal gain, as I expect was the case with that chap's family. All I wanted was enough to provide some modicum of a life worth living but it was never to be.

On a parallel note I get very mixed feelings when I see tragedies affecting numbers of people receiving generous funds because of their scale. Individual tragedies are no less deserving but simply ignored.

Churchill. I reckon Boris thinks Obama has a dim view of him too.

Lost Soul wrote:... He [Corbyn] seemed to say that that is not what he meant - and that he should have, on reflection, been a bit more careful with the wording.

It felt like being punched in the stomach when I heard it that morning - so yes he should be a lot more careful with his choice of words.

I felt exactly the same at the time but still felt it a natural response to Cameron's abrogation of all responsibility and stating that the results were clear, even moreso after the coup, which suggested that no shadow cabinet response had been prepared. Who to blame? Well that appears to be the question had they not been plotting against him from the start.

I have to say that I am still completely opposed to leaving the EU even though it has not lived up to my ideals. But then what has?

Having reached the end of the posts I'm disappointed that the cat I found sat on my keyboard after I'd nipped out hadn't added her say.

SpinningHugo wrote:

RobertSnozers wrote:
Correlation does not imply causation. Labour has elected at least two female deputy leaders since the membership got the ability to vote in these contests IIRC. And might I add that your repeated characterisation of the Labour membership as sexist is one of the things I do not believe you can support and therefore would be grateful if, having stated your opinion on the matter for what it is worth, desist from asserting it again?

I don't consider it to be one of the opinions that should be censored, no. I agree with this.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/fe ... exism-left" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The vitrilol heaped upon the likes of Phillips, Creasy, and Eagle compared to men of comparable status also makes the point.

Another way of showing it is that Burnham, who is utterly hopeless in my view, outpolled Cooper, who isn't.

Phillips and Streeting? Two peas from the same pod.

utopiandreams wrote:

Lost Soul wrote:... He [Corbyn] seemed to say that that is not what he meant - and that he should have, on reflection, been a bit more careful with the wording.

It felt like being punched in the stomach when I heard it that morning - so yes he should be a lot more careful with his choice of words.

I felt exactly the same at the time but still felt it a natural response to Cameron's abrogation of all responsibility and stating that the results were clear, even moreso after the coup, which suggested that no shadow cabinet response had been prepared. Who to blame? Well that appears to be the question had they not been plotting against him from the start.

I have to say that I am still completely opposed to leaving the EU even though it has not lived up to my ideals. But then what has?

That eurosceptic Ken Clarke was saying Cameron should stick to what he said and invoke A50 the day after.

Good-afternoon, everyone.
I've caught up on yesterday's thread but haven't read today's.
I've not seen or read any other news since yesterday afternoon.
I hunkered down with my favourite novels instead.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... a9b5d2a4cf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In a follow up interview with BBC Newsnight in July, Corbyn said his use of the word “now” had been misinterpreted.

“I may not have put that as well as I should have done. My view was and is, at some point Article 50 is going to be invoked obviously,” he said. “I did not mean it should be invoked on Friday morning.”

Yet I'm sure there were other occasions after when he said something similar again, which again gave the impression he wanted article 50 invoked quickly. Perhaps he has since realised his mistake in this and is trying to row back, but if we take him at face value it suggests a degree of incompetence in clearly articulating a position in response to quickly moving political events that I hadn't previously suspected him of. He completely lost my support through his choice of words post-EU ref and potentially quite a few others as well. That's some pretty costly poorly chosen words.

http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teess ... e-11708249" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Linthorpe mum was involved in benefits dispute before she took own life, inquest hears

RobertSnozers wrote:his betrayal of Bomber Command etc etc.

I happen to have been re-reading, for the first time in ages, Max Hasting's 1970s history of RAF Bomber Command. Hastings says something that I think is also true about Cameron, Osborne, Johnson et al.

In 1939 RAF Bomber Command was supposed and expected to be highly efficient at three things. Shipping strikes and precision bombing by day and accurate navigation and area (by which was meant able to hit a big factory) at night. Everyone knew it was excellent at those things because from pilots and navigators to senior command it was packed with "the right sort of chaps". Public school educated men who would be good at and succeed at whatever they chose to do because chaps like them always succeeded because they were the kind of chaps who always succeeded. Very bad form to show you'd actually put any effort in of course, success had to be seen to come naturally and inevitably. That they were in the posts they were in proved they were good at their jobs, otherwise other public school chaps wouldn't have given them the jobs in the first place.

1939/40 revealed the truth. Bomber Command was next to useless in daylight and took heavy casualties. The aircraft they had simply weren't up to the job nor were the tactics. As for night bombing, the Germans seriously wondered at one point why the RAF seemed to be indiscriminately scattering bombs all over western German towns, fields and woodlands pretty much at random. Bomber Command's night navigation was so poor the Luftwaffe often couldn't even guess what the intended target had been after the raid.

Fighter Command, another flying club for public schoolboys, also took completely unexpected heavy losses due to ineffective and counter-productive tactics at the start of the war.

Confident, successful and obviously good at their jobs public school chaps undone by encountering reality. Sound familiar?

As for 1940, the greatest Churchill myth of all is that "Britain stood alone". Of course it did, so long as you ignore Canada, New Zealand, Australia, India and a huge chunk of Africa from Egypt in the north to South Africa. Between 1939 and 1945 India recruited the largest entirely volunteer army the world has ever seen, something like a couple of million volunteers. Plus the Poles and Czechs who joined the RAF and army to continue fighting the Nazis, of course.

Yet there are people, including some who were alive at the time, who insist that the "non-white" Commonwealth and Empire "did nothing at all" in either world war. Even when, like my mother, they have letters from their father, who served in the Mesopotamia campaign, praising the Indian and African troops that made up over 2/3 of the army he was part of.

This argument about Article 50...

I voted Remain but I believe that A50 should be invoked as soon as possible...and ideally would have been soon after the referendum. I will also say that the leave vote was not the right one

The reasons are:

The PM said it would be and not to do it damages the credibility of the UK Government

It is unfair to the rest of the EU...and remember who we will be negotiating with

It would actually focus minds on coming up with a plan......we are currently in a state of denial despite catastrophic lead measures suggesting a coming real issue

I think there is going to be a penalty if we want to extend the negotiation beyond 2 years...the longer we take beforehand the less likelihood we will get the extension

There are no indications we will have any more of a plan when it comes to starting negotiations than we did on June 24th

Uncertainty is not good....and we have no certainty. We could have no investment until we start seeing some of the negotiations
If negotiations go well it will be better than uncertainty. if they go badly then it possibly will not be worse than not knowing...especially if it takes a long time

All the focus is on trade...the negotiation is not about trade...it is about exit conditions. There will be no trade agreement until after exit....so we are delaying that


I get a bit perplexed with all this mouthing off from Renmainers essentially saying that calling for A50 invocation as being completely stupid and a mistake

To me the assumption behind it that delaying A50 will lead to a rethink on Brexit is exhibiting denial and if that is the reason for disiking Corbyn then it is not surprising that it has no effect

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 74141.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The UK’s four biggest banks would need to raise another £155bn in fresh capital to withstand a new financial crisis

howsillyofme1 wrote:This argument about Article 50...

I voted Remain but I believe that A50 should be invoked as soon as possible...and ideally would have been soon after the referendum. I will also say that the leave vote was not the right one

The reasons are:

The PM said it would be and not to do it damages the credibility of the UK Government

It is unfair to the rest of the EU...and remember who we will be negotiating with

It would actually focus minds on coming up with a plan......we are currently in a state of denial despite catastrophic lead measures suggesting a coming real issue

I think there is going to be a penalty if we want to extend the negotiation beyond 2 years...the longer we take beforehand the less likelihood we will get the extension

There are no indications we will have any more of a plan when it comes to starting negotiations than we did on June 24th

Uncertainty is not good....and we have no certainty. We could have no investment until we start seeing some of the negotiations
If negotiations go well it will be better than uncertainty. if they go badly then it possibly will not be worse than not knowing...especially if it takes a long time

All the focus is on trade...the negotiation is not about trade...it is about exit conditions. There will be no trade agreement until after exit....so we are delaying that


I get a bit perplexed with all this mouthing off from Renmainers essentially saying that calling for A50 invocation as being completely stupid and a mistake

To me the assumption behind it that delaying A50 will lead to a rethink on Brexit is exhibiting denial and if that is the reason for disiking Corbyn then it is not surprising that it has no effect

I'm going to throw some of your own words back at you ...

I think it was 'I find that offensive' ( just before you flounced off for a while. )
okay, that there in blue, I find that offensive. 'Mouthing off' are you sure you want to use that ?

Yes, I am a bit grumpy.
Okay

Thanks, hsom, that pretty well matches my views on Article 50 too but would add that after the election Labour voted to support the referendum and I don't recall any conditions, that is margins, being discussed. See I'm a fast learner dropping the Latin abbreviation of id est. Also future collaboration in... well several spheres really are jeopardised now that the government has stated we are leaving the EU, not some distant or non-existent time when they can be bothered to invoke the article. Nearly all I've heard of precursory talks always were and have since proved non-starters.

In the event that the government does not invoke A50, I couldn't blame the rest of the union if they enforced a harsh penalty even if it could be argued we've already paid a high price. I really have no idea what fills the mind of a grown man that can idle his hours away on Fruit Ninja... unless of course he were a programmer. That last bit came because I've been with granddaughter on her new tab playing educational games and I still blame that vacuous Cameron for getting us in this fix.

frikandel.

looking forward to RR2, Ohso and others returning. in case you are peaking, you are much missed.

(and in the same vein glad to see Mr Snozers)

Please speak freely but am I thick or something, Robert? Fuji Superia 200 and a link to digital photos. Which reminds me I was looking for a photo of the statue I spoke of earlier. As with many others it is on an external hard drive that has packed up... Just another thing I have to sort.

TR'sGhost wrote:

RobertSnozers wrote:his betrayal of Bomber Command etc etc.

I happen to have been re-reading, for the first time in ages, Max Hasting's 1970s history of RAF Bomber Command. Hastings says something that I think is also true about Cameron, Osborne, Johnson et al.

In 1939 RAF Bomber Command was supposed and expected to be highly efficient at three things. Shipping strikes and precision bombing by day and accurate navigation and area (by which was meant able to hit a big factory) at night. Everyone knew it was excellent at those things because from pilots and navigators to senior command it was packed with "the right sort of chaps". Public school educated men who would be good at and succeed at whatever they chose to do because chaps like them always succeeded because they were the kind of chaps who always succeeded. Very bad form to show you'd actually put any effort in of course, success had to be seen to come naturally and inevitably. That they were in the posts they were in proved they were good at their jobs, otherwise other public school chaps wouldn't have given them the jobs in the first place.

1939/40 revealed the truth. Bomber Command was next to useless in daylight and took heavy casualties. The aircraft they had simply weren't up to the job nor were the tactics. As for night bombing, the Germans seriously wondered at one point why the RAF seemed to be indiscriminately scattering bombs all over western German towns, fields and woodlands pretty much at random. Bomber Command's night navigation was so poor the Luftwaffe often couldn't even guess what the intended target had been after the raid.

Fighter Command, another flying club for public schoolboys, also took completely unexpected heavy losses due to ineffective and counter-productive tactics at the start of the war.

Confident, successful and obviously good at their jobs public school chaps undone by encountering reality. Sound familiar?

As for 1940, the greatest Churchill myth of all is that "Britain stood alone". Of course it did, so long as you ignore Canada, New Zealand, Australia, India and a huge chunk of Africa from Egypt in the north to South Africa. Between 1939 and 1945 India recruited the largest entirely volunteer army the world has ever seen, something like a couple of million volunteers. Plus the Poles and Czechs who joined the RAF and army to continue fighting the Nazis, of course.

Yet there are people, including some who were alive at the time, who insist that the "non-white" Commonwealth and Empire "did nothing at all" in either world war. Even when, like my mother, they have letters from their father, who served in the Mesopotamia campaign, praising the Indian and African troops that made up over 2/3 of the army he was part of.

Not sure if this is a direct quot from Hastings or your own thoughts. Either way I take exception to it.
My FiL was a bomber command navigator and I can assure you he is no public schoolboy, neither was his pilot or crew. Or the other crews he flew along side, many of whom did not make the return flight.
He still has his flight log that details every mission he flew. The bombs they dropped more often hit the targets they were aimed at than not, a sad but true fact. The only time forests or open ground got hit was if a crew had to ditch its load for some reason (often having been hit and already going down) then their standing orders were to dropped them over open ground if possible to avoid civilian casualties.

Whoever, yourself or Hastings, who wrote that diatribe against the brave men who - unlike other service personal - got no recognition for their war effort & losses (till very recently) does them a great disservice & insults their memory.

Lost Soul wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:This argument about Article 50...

I voted Remain but I believe that A50 should be invoked as soon as possible...and ideally would have been soon after the referendum. I will also say that the leave vote was not the right one

The reasons are:

The PM said it would be and not to do it damages the credibility of the UK Government

It is unfair to the rest of the EU...and remember who we will be negotiating with

It would actually focus minds on coming up with a plan......we are currently in a state of denial despite catastrophic lead measures suggesting a coming real issue

I think there is going to be a penalty if we want to extend the negotiation beyond 2 years...the longer we take beforehand the less likelihood we will get the extension

There are no indications we will have any more of a plan when it comes to starting negotiations than we did on June 24th

Uncertainty is not good....and we have no certainty. We could have no investment until we start seeing some of the negotiations
If negotiations go well it will be better than uncertainty. if they go badly then it possibly will not be worse than not knowing...especially if it takes a long time

All the focus is on trade...the negotiation is not about trade...it is about exit conditions. There will be no trade agreement until after exit....so we are delaying that


I get a bit perplexed with all this mouthing off from Renmainers essentially saying that calling for A50 invocation as being completely stupid and a mistake

To me the assumption behind it that delaying A50 will lead to a rethink on Brexit is exhibiting denial and if that is the reason for disiking Corbyn then it is not surprising that it has no effect

I'm going to throw some of your own words back at you ...

I think it was 'I find that offensive' ( just before you flounced off for a while. )
okay, that there in blue, I find that offensive. 'Mouthing off' are you sure you want to use that ?

Yes, I am a bit grumpy.
Okay

Piss off......I am grumpy too

And yes I do mean mouthing off, not necessarily the people on here which you will see from I did not quote anyone

The argument that Shami Chakrabarty's nomination is, in part, to keep up the Labour numbers is a bit lame. If you're going to nominate one, then why not nominate others? There must be other "worthies" who could be put forward. Either do the thing properly and justify it accordingly, or not at all (not at all being, I think, the original idea).



Edited - typo

I try to explain here why it would be very foolish indeed to invoke article 50 straightaway, even if like Corbyn you are for Brexit

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... e-invoked/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo wrote:I try to explain here why it would be very foolish indeed to invoke article 50 straightaway, even if like Corbyn you are for Brexit

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... e-invoked/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Indeed you do...it is your opinion and I disagree with it

I will not call you incompetent or stupid for it though...I just think there are flaws

Lost Soul wrote:

Willow904 wrote:

Lost Soul wrote:
I was wondering if I'd imagined it - but no...

But did he deny it in the debate?

He seemed to say that that is not what he meant - and that he should have, on reflection, been a bit more careful with the wording.

It felt like being punched in the stomach when I heard it that morning - so yes he should be a lot more careful with his choice of words.

Yes, agreed. I couldn't understand Corbyn after the EU referendum results. I don't think he knows what he's doing.

I don't know how, but I have managed to thank that awful post telling Lost Soul to piss off.
I popped back to see if things had improved, but can see they haven't.

yahyah wrote:I don't know how, but I have managed to thank that awful post telling Lost Soul to piss off.
I popped back to see if things had improved, but can see they haven't.

Yes I am awful aren't I........

Before logging off again, just want to say Lost Soul, please don't p*** off.
I'd like you here when I come back.

yahyah wrote:I don't know how, but I have managed to thank that awful post telling Lost Soul to piss off.
I popped back to see if things had improved, but can see they haven't.

Hello!

Edited

Oh - goodbye.

@RobertSnozers

Do/did you develop, enlarge and print your photos too. My father was a semi-pro photographer who spent many hours in the bathroom with single toilet (when I was young) made up as his dark room. So you can understand why it is that I could not understand Cameron's bladder retentive traits. It is not conducive to clear thinking.

Evening all

Straight question - did anybody, at any time before the EU ref, suggest that the vote could be ignored?

Conditions that caused English riots even worse now, says leading expert

Prof Tim Newburn, who conducted major research into the 2011 riots, says economic and social conditions have worsened for people involved in unrest (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ing-expert

Inflammatory, derogatory language towards others we're sharing the thread with is off-putting.

fedup59 wrote:Evening all

Straight question - did anybody, at any time before the EU ref, suggest that the vote could be ignored?

Definitely no-one from Remain that I can remember...

I wish we could go back

Hi PF. Saw one butterfly today.
Hope all well with you.

If I find a place more conducive to assemble, I'll let you lovely peeps [you know who you are] know by private message. Unfortunately, not supporting the Great Leader, not wanting a potential Labour leader sworn about, or wanting to remain in the EU seems to render one a lesser being

RobertSnozers wrote:

citizenJA wrote: Yes, agreed. I couldn't understand Corbyn after the EU referendum results. I don't think he knows what he's doing.

There are plenty of good justifications for invoking A50 quickly. You may or may not agree with them. To make that point doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing.

It's unfortunate that the debate seems to be slipping back into 'Corbyn's useless!'/'No he isn't!'/repeat

I agree it not useful writing, 'Corbyn's useless!'. That's why I've not done that.

yahyah wrote:Hi PF. Saw one butterfly today.
Hope all well with you.

If I find a place more conducive to assemble, I'll let you lovely peeps [you know who you are] know by private message. Unfortunately, not supporting the Great Leader, not wanting a potential Labour leader sworn about, or wanting to remain in the EU seems to render one a lesser being

Hello.

Nothing to report here. Even flies seem to be in fairly short supply (not that I'm complaining).

Well it seems like not wanting a democratically elected leader lied about and bullied, or thinking life is not black or white or accepting we are going to be out of the EU (whatever I want and thanks to the Tories) is not an acceptable position

I don't know where you get the idea we are all cultists when we are accepting of Corbyn as leader from yahyah

Your post suggests we all are and you are absolutely wrong as has been pointed out loads of times

Just to be clear, Robert, my father had no need of bladder control as he was in the room with the toilet. It was the rest of us that suffered. Black and white was his favoured medium too, especially his competition entries. I know he has published writings, not novels like you, but believe some of his pictures have been published too. You can probably tell I lost my high regard of him at some point.

Deleted

May I ask for a little calm. I am minded that I once pointed out to a student that something they had submitted in an OU assignment was strictly speaking plagiarism as they had neither permission to reproduce nor attributed said piece. I chose carefully considered words and believed I was speaking in an advisory capacity but nevertheless had unintentionally caused offence.

Here we are not only speaking freely but largely off the top of our heads, so perhaps when quoting others we should appreciate their viewpoint rather than splitting hairs.

Postscript: it looks funny now including plagiarism with the topic of quoting others. That wasn't my point, it was that even carefully chosen words can cause offence.

howsillyofme1 wrote:

SpinningHugo wrote:I try to explain here why it would be very foolish indeed to invoke article 50 straightaway, even if like Corbyn you are for Brexit

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... e-invoked/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Indeed you do...it is your opinion and I disagree with it

I will not call you incompetent or stupid for it though...I just think there are flaws

1. You can't conclude the negotiations in 2 years. It is simply impossible.

2. Invoking Art 50 would destroy the UK's negotiating position.

Which is why nobody is now calling for it (save for the Ukip fringe).

Corbyn's true attitude was revealed on the morning of the 24th, which is why he is now denying saying what he did.

Deleted

Deleted

Deleted

RobertSnozers wrote:By the way, I thought FTNers might be interested in my photos of the antifascist demo in Southampton a couple of months ago. One of the few things to have made me feel a bit better about the state of humanity recently

https://www.flickr.com/photos/135004112 ... 1202202951" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Camera - 1958 Kiev 3A rangefinder (licence built Soviet version of Zeiss Contax III)
Lens - 50mm Jupiter 8 (licence built Soviet version of Zeiss Sonnar 50mm)
Film - out of date Fuji Superia 200

This was my first attempt at street photography of any kind. I had heard that the 50mm lens was THE lens for street photography but I found myself wanting something wider, and as you can see, I cut off a lot of the tops of signs and banners, and the odd person's head. Lucky the police and medics were there

Good to see you're keeping on the cutting edge of technology

I like the shot of the Sikh gentleman.

HindleA wrote:Did you ever go to Summer Schools,UD? They had/have a certain reputation,none of which I indulged in,of course.

Only one and as it happens my wife had given me free license beforehand as by that time she was sure of my loyalty, which if I'm honest had been questioned years earlier. This is post her stroke of course when her libido wasn't what it had been. Indeed the opportunity or invitation as it were did arise but feeling a little guilty I played rather coy, only to see it thrown back in my face later that evening as said lady left the piano she was playing, wrapped her arms around another and kissed him whilst fixing me with her stare. She was gorgeous, but then I always say that.

I did become less coy over time as my wife never did regain her libido until several months before her brain haemorrhage.

Postscript: I was a student at the time and not a lecturer. Nobody ever threw themselves at me then excepting youngsters at college but that was never within consideration.

I also remember apologising to a female lecturer for falling asleep on the front row of her presentation. She took it rather well I thought.