Saturday 9th, Sunday 10th May 2015

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:23 pm

I think Ed Balls might have taken over his missus's twitter for a moment. There's an extremely forthright response from her to Ian Dunt - who tweeted "There is no question to which Yvette Cooper is the answer." and set off a pretty nasty twitter pile in.

I may have to revise my opinion of her style.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:23 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Someone like Eoin Clarke has his heart in the right place, but he is basically a fool.

If you want to win back the 15m people who voted for other parties, you don't start by insulting them.
This is where you and your man are making a big mistake
Ed didn't lose because people didn't like the policies or didn't like Ed. He lost because of the massive last ditch "The Scott's are coming" campaign and the split of the left vote. Whoever paid for the greens to stand in every constituency has a lot to answer for. I've spoken to friends in a lost marginal, one voted tory and one green. Both are kicking themselves and ardently wishing they could cancel the election and have a re run. The tory didn't realise how close the seat was (face palm) and voted tory because she thought it would send a message to Ed not to get to close to the SNP (!) she really thought he would win and this was her way of objecting to the SNP. The other (green) is first time voter and had been told that it was the number of votes counted that would win the seat and the more Green votes they got would "send a message" (god how I wish these message senders would just use email!) that people wanted a more green outlook. She is also devastated now she understands how things really work. Both these people really wanted and expected Ed to be PM. Both are non political, in that they only think about politics at the election.
I'm reading similar story's all over the web.
If your man really wants to help Labour he needs to analyse what actually happened rather than making assumptions based on bland numbers that tell no story.
No,

No doubt the SNP scare lost votes.

But, it was a failure of leadership that lost us Scotland, and we should have been in such a strong position that even the SNP story didn't matter. One of the reasons it had so much traction was because voters didn't trust Miliband to stand up to the SNP.

Miliband had enormous advantages

(i) collapse of Lib Dems
(ii) rise of Ukip
(iii) years of austerity and incompetence.

Next time the first two will be missing, and we'll have had boundary changes.

Miliband was an unequivocal disaster.

I disagree. Scotland was lost to Labour the moment Cameron offered them a referendum. Events have more than proved that, and I've come across enough people who o not feel that they are able to voice their Labour, no-voter opinions without being subject to physical or verbal abuse. I've seen nothing from the SNP leadership to challenge this kind of intimidating behaviour, except emollient statements, with no action to back them up. I've also seen a commensurate increase in SNP supporters statement od just how much English voters have done to deprive Scots of what they are entitled to. us far better off people south of the border.

To me it looks like Miliband inherited the mistakes of the past in Scotland while having reaped a Cameron generated whirlwind. It was very instructional seeing how much weight the far right placed on a small piece of animation featuring Salmond and Miliband. Effectively we are a nation now divided on nationalist terms that the Tories instigated and nurtured. I fail to see what Ed could do with that, it's an evil and poisonous brew at best.

The unequivocal disaster is Cameron and co., and I'm having difficulty getting over the thousands of people left devastated by the election result who are supportive of the exact ideas that led to it. The bewildering anti austerity alliance for a start. Cognitive dissonance is a hackneyed and perhaps tainted phrase, but in this toxic political landscape it seems very appropriate. Framing Ed as being culpable for it is about as useful as a sugar raincoat.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:27 pm

PorFavor wrote:
I've been saying that (obviously not very articulately)!

No, you have been articulate PF. It's just a big thread, with a lot going on, and no thanks button to show immediate recognition of the point and that it's been noted and appreciated.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:30 pm

The Independent ‏@Independent 17 minutes ago
Michael Gove (our new Justice Secretary) called for the return of hanging in 1998
http://ind.pn/1FdNa8C

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:31 pm

citizenJA wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Speaking of Tessa .....
Tessa Jowell ‏@TessaJowell
Tessa Jowell retweeted GeorgeMonbiot
Rubbish. Labour wins when we appeal to everybody. Country rejected us, should be no-one we don't seek to win back

(my bold)

edited to add
I've posted too soon, I think, before re-reading the tweet.

Quite. I think he's saying if they've been able to vote Tory once they've basically crossed the line. Don't waste precious time and resources on them.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:32 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:I'd like Starmer as Home Sec, he's more than capable, may put out a few noses so soon after being elected but he's more than a match for May, use him.

Yahyah good to see you..

Thanks.

I'm sorry I'm so volatile. Just so up and down at the moment.

My outlook on life is to be inclusive, and in other areas I want co-operation, unity, dialogue etc.
But with politics, when so many people will suffer, it is just so hard to keep cool and not knee jerk.

Am used to losing to the Tories, but this time the SNP and their two pals helped and that's a new angle, something fairly revolting to swallow.

The Caroline Lucas admission, and the news that groups from three so-called 'progressive' parties may be planning anti-Tory demos was like a spark to a dry haystack.

But am quite

now.

Tonibel · Post by **Tonibel** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:34 pm

My heartfelt sympathies to those of you who are still totally despondent.
Since Thursday I seem to have worked my way through most of the classic stages of grief, from (total) denial at the exit polls, through anger at people's selfishness and stupidity, and absolute depression on Friday when it poured all day here, which didn't help. However after a bout of horticultural therapy yesterday (weeding) with the sun shining and the returned house martins spring cleaning their nests, I managed to cheer up a bit and now think I have almost reached the final stage of acceptance.
(This was helped by seeing the lovely picture of Ed And Justine on the front of the Observer, looking happier and more relaxed than they've been for months)
First though-

BLAIR, MANDELSON MILBURN. SHUT UP AND FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!

That's better.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:37 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:I think Ed Balls might have taken over his missus's twitter for a moment. There's an extremely forthright response from her to Ian Dunt - who tweeted "There is no question to which Yvette Cooper is the answer." and set off a pretty nasty twitter pile in.

I may have to revise my opinion of her style.

That's not Cooper's twitter a/c - it's a parody.

Cooper's is @yvettecooperMP, not @yvettecooper_MP

I hate parody accounts that look too close & are mistaken for the real thing - they fool so many people.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:37 pm

So what we all seem to be saying is....stick the obvious candidates into the Shadow cabinet where we can see what they're made of first before a leadership contest?

Which is when - next couple of months or at the party conference like last time?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:37 pm

@rebeccariots2

Oh, thanks for that.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:40 pm

ohsocynical wrote:And sorry to keep blabbing on but hasn't it occured to anyone else what the Conservatives based their campaign on?
They used buzz words which if repeated enough times begins to sink in. They used fear. They used ridicule.
Time after time I found myself saying, 'Do they think we're thick? Do they think we're stupid'

They did.

Right wing tactic, spreading fear whether it is immigration, terrorism etc.

Bought the Observer today, an article in it about happiness said that research appears to show that 'people are more motivated by fear of financial loss than by by the possibility of financial gain'
& that 'most of us, for example, would rather forgo a payrise if our colleagues are going to get more than us'.

The Tories will exploit that sort of research, can't believe they don't pay social psychologists to help their attack, as well as using Crosby.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:42 pm

Kevin Brennan as Welsh Sec too, bit more abrasive than Smith, Smith can go into another department.

I rate Smith but at the same time I want a more challenging figure to take on the utterly useless bunch of Tories here peddling the same old crap.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:42 pm

pk1 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:I think Ed Balls might have taken over his missus's twitter for a moment. There's an extremely forthright response from her to Ian Dunt - who tweeted "There is no question to which Yvette Cooper is the answer." and set off a pretty nasty twitter pile in.

I may have to revise my opinion of her style.
That's not Cooper's twitter a/c - it's a parody.

Cooper's is @yvettecooperMP, not @yvettecooper_MP

I hate parody accounts that look too close & are mistaken for the real thing - they fool so many people.

Thank you for letting me know pk. I was a bit shocked (prim image of Cooper completely exploded for a mo).

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:43 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
yahyah wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: If Sadiq stays as Shadow Justice Secretary then why not move Yvette Cooper (MSc in Economics) to Shadow Chancellor and Keir Starmer to Shadow Home Secretary?

Shadow Foreign Secretary?

How about Dan Jarvis and then we can see what he's about?
Am back, as PK tempted me with that shortbread. Hope there's some left.

Brains & brawn. Can't believe I spelt Aberystwyth

Jarvis studied International Politics and Strategic Studies at Aberyswyth, and got an MA in Conflict, Security & Development at King's College London so is surely qualified for Shadow Foreign Sec?
I should have looked at his wiki biog before posting!

That looks good.

Brains & brawn. Anatoly says he's likely more Old Labour than Blairite.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:43 pm

I know a nice old guy who votes Tory. Has done all his life. Also all his life he has devoted his waking hours to other people. His family, the people in his charge, his neighbours, their neighbours. Even now, in his 80s, he spends much of his time looking after those less able to look after themselves. In practice on a day to day basis he is more of a socialist than most lefties will ever be. His only mistake is to be insufficiently cynical to believe that authority figures lie and I wish now I'd taken more trouble to understand his view than repeatedly tell him my own. There are a lot of selfish idiots about for sure, but not everyone voting Tory in this election was either evil or stupid. We need to avoid going down the route of believing that they were - or of believing that they cannot be persuaded with the right arguments.

Tonibel · Post by **Tonibel** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:44 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
yahyah wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: If Sadiq stays as Shadow Justice Secretary then why not move Yvette Cooper (MSc in Economics) to Shadow Chancellor and Keir Starmer to Shadow Home Secretary?

Shadow Foreign Secretary?

How about Dan Jarvis and then we can see what he's about?

Am back, as PK tempted me with that shortbread. Hope there's some left.

Some good suggestions there. Any ideas on DWP? That is one area where I wouldn't mind one of the oldies, Alan Johnson, being brought back.

Jarvis studied International Politics and Strategic Studies at Aberyswyth, and got an MA in Conflict, Security & Development at King's College London so is surely qualified for Shadow Foreign Sec?
I should have looked at his wiki biog before posting!

That looks good.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:44 pm

Almost feel unloyal with all this touting of names and various jobs, a feel of "the king is dead, long live the king".

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:45 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
I've been saying that (obviously not very articulately)!
No, you have been articulate PF. It's just a big thread, with a lot going on, and no thanks button to show immediate recognition of the point and that it's been noted and appreciated.

Sorry to have missed it

Was not being ignorant honest

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:46 pm

'most of us, for example, would rather forgo a payrise if our colleagues are going to get more than us'.

that is seriously scary.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:46 pm

Tonibel wrote:My heartfelt sympathies to those of you who are still totally despondent.
Since Thursday I seem to have worked my way through most of the classic stages of grief, from (total) denial at the exit polls, through anger at people's selfishness and stupidity, and absolute depression on Friday when it poured all day here, which didn't help. However after a bout of horticultural therapy yesterday (weeding) with the sun shining and the returned house martins spring cleaning their nests, I managed to cheer up a bit and now think I have almost reached the final stage of acceptance.
(This was helped by seeing the lovely picture of Ed And Justine on the front of the Observer, looking happier and more relaxed than they've been for months)
First though-

BLAIR, MANDELSON MILBURN. SHUT UP AND FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!

That's better.

Say it loud and say it proud.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:49 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:Almost feel unloyal with all this touting of names and various jobs, a feel of "the king is dead, long live the king".

The good thing I keep reminding myself is that his mark on the party, members and policies will still be there ... it can't and won't be the same as before ... the person and their work does make a difference.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:50 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
I've been saying that (obviously not very articulately)!
No, you have been articulate PF. It's just a big thread, with a lot going on, and no thanks button to show immediate recognition of the point and that it's been noted and appreciated.
Sorry to have missed it
Was not being ignorant honest

Hello. I wasn't trying to tell you off with my plaintive cry for attention!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:52 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:Kevin Brennan as Welsh Sec too, bit more abrasive than Smith, Smith can go into another department.

I rate Smith but at the same time I want a more challenging figure to take on the utterly useless bunch of Tories here peddling the same old crap.

I was a little disappointed by his performance in the Welsh debate.

Also, compared to how much wall to wall we got of Bennett and Sturgeon - did anyone see the BBC or Sky interview Carwyn Jones for more than about three seconds ?

The only piece I saw with him, he was asked a tough question about Labour's record, while the UKIP candidate was shown going for a cosy chat up the road with the interviewer.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:53 pm

@letsskiptotheleft

I know how you feel about the "the king is dead" thing. I feel that way, too. And I still feel crushed.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:54 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:So what we all seem to be saying is....stick the obvious candidates into the Shadow cabinet where we can see what they're made of first before a leadership contest?

Which is when - next couple of months or at the party conference like last time?

Vote will be in September. Before then the candidates have to 1) Find their sponsors (33 each unless that's changed) 2) Declare they will stand 3) Attend various town hall type meetings where they debate each other and do Q&A's and generally put forward why they think they are the one for the job. 4) go into the first round of voting where some will get knocked out 6) the remainder start again from 3) rise and repeat till 2 candidate remain. Unless there is an outstanding winner at 1)
That's my understanding but I'm sure AK can give a better round up

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:55 pm

Peter ‏@PetersWooll 4h4 hours ago
Did Cameron send letters to everyone in marginals, spreading SNP fear ? Expensive but effective @peterjukes

And helped by Sturgeon shouting that she'd hold 'Labour's feet to the fire'.
Horrible image used by the SNP, apparently it originates from a form of torture.
Probably suggested to her by a Murdoch hack.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 4:56 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:And sorry to keep blabbing on but hasn't it occured to anyone else what the Conservatives based their campaign on?
They used buzz words which if repeated enough times begins to sink in. They used fear. They used ridicule.
Time after time I found myself saying, 'Do they think we're thick? Do they think we're stupid'

They did.
Right wing tactic, spreading fear whether it is immigration, terrorism etc.

Bought the Observer today, an article in it about happiness said that research appears to show that 'people are more motivated by fear of financial loss than by by the possibility of financial gain'
& that 'most of us, for example, would rather forgo a payrise if our colleagues are going to get more than us'.

The Tories will exploit that sort of research, can't believe they don't pay social psychologists to help their attack, as well as using Crosby.

I'd be more surprised if they didn't. It's logical.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:01 pm

yahyah wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:I'd like Starmer as Home Sec, he's more than capable, may put out a few noses so soon after being elected but he's more than a match for May, use him.

Yahyah good to see you..
Thanks.

I'm sorry I'm so volatile. Just so up and down at the moment.

My outlook on life is to be inclusive, and in other areas I want co-operation, unity, dialogue etc.
But with politics, when so many people will suffer, it is just so hard to keep cool and not knee jerk.

Am used to losing to the Tories, but this time the SNP and their two pals helped and that's a new angle, something fairly revolting to swallow.

The Caroline Lucas admission, and the news that groups from three so-called 'progressive' parties may be planning anti-Tory demos was like a spark to a dry haystack.

But am quite now.

yahyah, I'm sorry but I seem to be missing something here. The twitter link someone provided previously was regarding a march that is being organised by the Peoples Assembly. The article also connected to that link, regarding SNP, Plaid and the Greens having an anti austerity alliance was from December last year and isn't news. All three parties have consistently argued they are anti austerity.

The penultimate paragraph indicates Greens, Plaid and SNP are prepared to work together where there is agreement which is exactly what some of us on here have been discussing today. The last paragraph shows that at that time at least, Labour were not prepared to consider that option.

I could reasonably argue that Labour have got us into this mess by not being prepared to work with others.

Natalie Bennett also pointed out that despite the parties unity on certain subjects they are, of course, still in competition to each other: "We will continue to compete against each other electorally, and there remain very significant areas of policy disagreement."

A Labour spokesperson said that they wouldn't comment on such deals: "We are fighting to win the next election and wouldn't be speculating about this kind of thing. We're not going to speculate about coalition deals".

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:07 pm

I'm thinking that there's nowhere left to go. Scotland is a no-no for all sorts of reasons - not least because, if they go it alone, they'll go bust; and if they don't things will be the same, if not worse, than here, I reckon. Europe may also soon not be an option as someone (sorry can't remember who) has suggested. I don't especially want to go anywhere, but I hate the feeling of being penned in like cattle in the slaughterhouse.

Waxing a tad melodramatic, now?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:07 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:So what we all seem to be saying is....stick the obvious candidates into the Shadow cabinet where we can see what they're made of first before a leadership contest?

Which is when - next couple of months or at the party conference like last time?
Vote will be in September. Before then the candidates have to 1) Find their sponsors (33 each unless that's changed) 2) Declare they will stand 3) Attend various town hall type meetings where they debate each other and do Q&A's and generally put forward why they think they are the one for the job. 4) go into the first round of voting where some will get knocked out 6) the remainder start again from 3) rise and repeat till 2 candidate remain. Unless there is an outstanding winner at 1)
That's my understanding but I'm sure AK can give a better round up

Thinking about the leader election, would it be helpful to anyone if I start (or someone can start) a page in the files for each one as they declare? We can add links to any speeches, their wiki page and anything else useful about them?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:08 pm

The SNP been outplayed by Murdoch ? Honeymoon over already or is he showing them who's really boss ?

From the Sun on Sunday -

''As for the Scottish Nationalists, David Cameron should call Nicola Sturgeon's bluff and give the Scottish Parliament full fiscal autonomy.

With a £7.6bn black hole to fill, that would mean huge welfare cuts in Scotland or putting up taxes.
Let her explain that one away.''

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:09 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
I've been saying that (obviously not very articulately)!
No, you have been articulate PF. It's just a big thread, with a lot going on, and no thanks button to show immediate recognition of the point and that it's been noted and appreciated.

My apologies PorFavor, I've been skimming through pages and pages of posts. In mitigation I think it is something that bears repetion. I've lost count, long ago, of the people who several other respondents have had to try and get through to on basics. It's like people who keep taking the medicine a doctor prescribes and even while they are going downhill fast will not believe that the doctor got it wrong. I've met a fair few of them too. It's this thing about 'betters', I think, that you can believe some people but not the common sense people around you. Well maybe that's only part of it, but I'm sorry if I trod on your toes.

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:09 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Look, I'll try again. Many Greens and other leftists may be rueing the attacks they made on Labour. That's a conclusion for them to come to, and many will. Others will decide they did the right thing, and that's their business. Shouting at people with similar beliefs to us but with different priorities that they put the Tories back in will not win anyone over. OK, so they may have allowed themselves to be beguiled by voodoo economics, but they want the same things we do. The fact is that they did not feel they could support the vision of the Labour Party expressed in 2010-15. I'm sorry for that, but the fact is given that we're stuck with FPTP and the time may come when Labour asks them to lend their votes again. Being bitter about it will not achieve that.

Anyway, one thing we have to face up to is that Ukip took far more votes off Labour than Green or Plaid did in England and Wales. Scotland and the SNP have their own priorities and that's a different case, but telling our ideological partners to get lost achieves nothing and potentially causes a lot of damage.

This. Plus many of us were trying to push labour to the left and despairing that they weren't listening. I fell into a huge depression in the last few weeks before the election because they weren't listening.
Ive also been on a massive push to get people to vote, whether labour, green, tusc whatever, as long as they engage. Labour ofc won in my area, which I expected because of the local elections. I still am finding it hard to believe that so many voted tory when they couldn't even get a majority after years of an unpopular labour govt.
Labour may need better canvassers too - the only one I got 'held his nose and voted for labour' under blair - not really a good argument. He also didnt want feedback about why I was unhappy with labour, he was out the gate when I was explaining about the independant living fund and the need to protect it. I voted green to get their vote share up, the holding your nose argument can only succeed in tory areas.
More than ever we need to keep communicating, the left must focus on getting out information on the tories and what they are doing instead of infighting
We have 5 years to build alternatives of some kind, whether labour, green, tusc, occupy etc

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:09 pm

yahyah wrote: And helped by Sturgeon shouting that she'd hold 'Labour's feet to the fire'.
Horrible image used by the SNP, apparently it originates from a form of torture.
Probably suggested to her by a Murdoch hack.

Also used by Salmond in his resignation speech:

Salmond then promised to hold the government to account on the vow of extensive new powers made by the three party leaders through the Daily Record on Tuesday.
He said: “We now have the opportunity to hold Westminster’s feet to the fire on the ‘vow’ that they have made to devolve further meaningful power to Scotland.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/polit ... an-4291189

Given today's words of wisdom from Salmond:

The SNP’s landslide of Scottish seats in the UK general election is a “staging post” on the road to independence, Alex Salmond said yesterday.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3768567

I wonder who is really running the SNP. After all, Sturgeon said the GE was nothing to do with independence.
Is Sturgeon the slightly more presentable face of Salmond?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:12 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:So what we all seem to be saying is....stick the obvious candidates into the Shadow cabinet where we can see what they're made of first before a leadership contest?

Which is when - next couple of months or at the party conference like last time?
Vote will be in September. Before then the candidates have to 1) Find their sponsors (33 each unless that's changed) 2) Declare they will stand 3) Attend various town hall type meetings where they debate each other and do Q&A's and generally put forward why they think they are the one for the job. 4) go into the first round of voting where some will get knocked out 6) the remainder start again from 3) rise and repeat till 2 candidate remain. Unless there is an outstanding winner at 1)
That's my understanding but I'm sure AK can give a better round up

Thinking about the leader election, would it be helpful to anyone if I start (or someone can start) a page in the files for each one as they declare? We can add links to any speeches, their wiki page and anything else useful about them?

Yes it would. If I'm going to have a vote I'll want to have information about the candidates from more than the 'official' sources. Still too depleted and numb to take in much at present.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:13 pm

yahyah wrote:The SNP been outplayed by Murdoch ? Honeymoon over already or is he showing them who's really boss ?

From the Sun on Sunday -

''As for the Scottish Nationalists, David Cameron should call Nicola Sturgeon's bluff and give the Scottish Parliament full fiscal autonomy.

With a £7.6bn black hole to fill, that would mean huge welfare cuts in Scotland or putting up taxes.
Let her explain that one away.''

Flippin 'eck - Me thinking along the lines of the Sun. Must go and have a lie down.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:14 pm

@seeingclearly

Ah, thanks for that but it really wasn't necessary. Although being credited with having common sense was a refreshing novelty!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:15 pm

thatchersorphan wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Look, I'll try again. Many Greens and other leftists may be rueing the attacks they made on Labour. That's a conclusion for them to come to, and many will. Others will decide they did the right thing, and that's their business. Shouting at people with similar beliefs to us but with different priorities that they put the Tories back in will not win anyone over. OK, so they may have allowed themselves to be beguiled by voodoo economics, but they want the same things we do. The fact is that they did not feel they could support the vision of the Labour Party expressed in 2010-15. I'm sorry for that, but the fact is given that we're stuck with FPTP and the time may come when Labour asks them to lend their votes again. Being bitter about it will not achieve that.

Anyway, one thing we have to face up to is that Ukip took far more votes off Labour than Green or Plaid did in England and Wales. Scotland and the SNP have their own priorities and that's a different case, but telling our ideological partners to get lost achieves nothing and potentially causes a lot of damage.
This. Plus many of us were trying to push labour to the left and despairing that they weren't listening. I fell into a huge depression in the last few weeks before the election because they weren't listening.
Ive also been on a massive push to get people to vote, whether labour, green, tusc whatever, as long as they engage. Labour ofc won in my area, which I expected because of the local elections. I still am finding it hard to believe that so many voted tory when they couldn't even get a majority after years of an unpopular labour govt.
Labour may need better canvassers too - the only one I got 'held his nose and voted for labour' under blair - not really a good argument. He also didnt want feedback about why I was unhappy with labour, he was out the gate when I was explaining about the independant living fund and the need to protect it. I voted green to get their vote share up, the holding your nose argument can only succeed in tory areas.
More than ever we need to keep communicating, the left must focus on getting out information on the tories and what they are doing instead of infighting
We have 5 years to build alternatives of some kind, whether labour, green, tusc, occupy etc

Yes to both. Labour is obviously going to have to be a big part of the solution but it is not the whole solution. I can't help feeling we need to be looking more explicitly at the shared ultimate goal and Labour's (and others') roles in achieving that; not Labour as the mission per se. The left have to overcome the rightwing press - they will be much more effective, joining forces to do at least some of that.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:17 pm

thatchersorphan wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Look, I'll try again. Many Greens and other leftists may be rueing the attacks they made on Labour. That's a conclusion for them to come to, and many will. Others will decide they did the right thing, and that's their business. Shouting at people with similar beliefs to us but with different priorities that they put the Tories back in will not win anyone over. OK, so they may have allowed themselves to be beguiled by voodoo economics, but they want the same things we do. The fact is that they did not feel they could support the vision of the Labour Party expressed in 2010-15. I'm sorry for that, but the fact is given that we're stuck with FPTP and the time may come when Labour asks them to lend their votes again. Being bitter about it will not achieve that.

Anyway, one thing we have to face up to is that Ukip took far more votes off Labour than Green or Plaid did in England and Wales. Scotland and the SNP have their own priorities and that's a different case, but telling our ideological partners to get lost achieves nothing and potentially causes a lot of damage.
This. Plus many of us were trying to push labour to the left and despairing that they weren't listening. I fell into a huge depression in the last few weeks before the election because they weren't listening.
Ive also been on a massive push to get people to vote, whether labour, green, tusc whatever, as long as they engage. Labour ofc won in my area, which I expected because of the local elections. I still am finding it hard to believe that so many voted tory when they couldn't even get a majority after years of an unpopular labour govt.
Labour may need better canvassers too - the only one I got 'held his nose and voted for labour' under blair - not really a good argument. He also didnt want feedback about why I was unhappy with labour, he was out the gate when I was explaining about the independant living fund and the need to protect it. I voted green to get their vote share up, the holding your nose argument can only succeed in tory areas.
More than ever we need to keep communicating, the left must focus on getting out information on the tories and what they are doing instead of infighting
We have 5 years to build alternatives of some kind, whether labour, green, tusc, occupy etc

Good to hear from you thatchersorphan.

A bit worrying for us in Wales as we have Assembly elections fairly close ... so we have less time to reflect, listen, reenergise and find ways forward.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:17 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: Vote will be in September. Before then the candidates have to 1) Find their sponsors (33 each unless that's changed) 2) Declare they will stand 3) Attend various town hall type meetings where they debate each other and do Q&A's and generally put forward why they think they are the one for the job. 4) go into the first round of voting where some will get knocked out 6) the remainder start again from 3) rise and repeat till 2 candidate remain. Unless there is an outstanding winner at 1)
That's my understanding but I'm sure AK can give a better round up

Thinking about the leader election, would it be helpful to anyone if I start (or someone can start) a page in the files for each one as they declare? We can add links to any speeches, their wiki page and anything else useful about them?
Yes it would. If I'm going to have a vote I'll want to have information about the candidates from more than the 'official' sources. Still too depleted and numb to take in much at present.

OK I'll set about it asap

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:33 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
'most of us, for example, would rather forgo a payrise if our colleagues are going to get more than us'.
that is seriously scary.

I'm fascinated by what makes people tick...
Was talking to my son earlier today. I'd just drawn some cash out to help them with the cost of having their lovely old Staffie put down.

He is still in shock and feels betrayed. He's quite a silent type and has never been overly political and a few times hasn't bothered to vote because it's so strongly Tory here it's a bit of a waste of time, but I impressed on him it was important that he vote this time if only because of boundary changes.

It's amazing because he has been ringing me up far more than normal to talk about what's happened and is likely to happen.
My daughter-in-law is type 1 diabetic and is worried about what will happen to her when the NHS as we know it goes. They are already looking at the housekeeping to make sure they will be able to afford her supplies [In the US our daughter who is an injecting type2 has a lot more expense and a fraction of the care]

My lovely gentle son is contracted out to keep the grounds of a multi billionaire and his multi-millionaire's [Greek shipping] wife's estate up together and has been disgusted at the way they approach life and treat people and often says, if that's what money does to you, he's glad we're poor.

Now he's finally getting it that poor people can be just as greedy, blinkered, and bigoted as the rich.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:35 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
yahyah wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:I'd like Starmer as Home Sec, he's more than capable, may put out a few noses so soon after being elected but he's more than a match for May, use him.

Yahyah good to see you..
Thanks.

I'm sorry I'm so volatile. Just so up and down at the moment.

My outlook on life is to be inclusive, and in other areas I want co-operation, unity, dialogue etc.
But with politics, when so many people will suffer, it is just so hard to keep cool and not knee jerk.

Am used to losing to the Tories, but this time the SNP and their two pals helped and that's a new angle, something fairly revolting to swallow.

The Caroline Lucas admission, and the news that groups from three so-called 'progressive' parties may be planning anti-Tory demos was like a spark to a dry haystack.

But am quite now.
yahyah, I'm sorry but I seem to be missing something here. The twitter link someone provided previously was regarding a march that is being organised by the Peoples Assembly. The article also connected to that link, regarding SNP, Plaid and the Greens having an anti austerity alliance was from December last year and isn't news. All three parties have consistently argued they are anti austerity.

The penultimate paragraph indicates Greens, Plaid and SNP are prepared to work together where there is agreement which is exactly what some of us on here have been discussing today. The last paragraph shows that at that time at least, Labour were not prepared to consider that option.

I could reasonably argue that Labour have got us into this mess by not being prepared to work with others.

Natalie Bennett also pointed out that despite the parties unity on certain subjects they are, of course, still in competition to each other: "We will continue to compete against each other electorally, and there remain very significant areas of policy disagreement."

A Labour spokesperson said that they wouldn't comment on such deals: "We are fighting to win the next election and wouldn't be speculating about this kind of thing. We're not going to speculate about coalition deals".

Sorry Tizme, I'm leaving dialogue with Greens for a while.

Not good for the blood pressure, and as I don't know what state the NHS will be in shortly I am being cautious.

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:41 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Big OccupyDemocracy demo in London. Violent by the look of it. Naturally not on the BBC.

Here's me being cynical again...I wonder how many of them voted?

The only violent bit was the bit that appeared on the tv. One of the streamers voted labour - he did the green vote swap thing -many of the regular onliners also voted - I have been pushing the please vote on the livestream chats and our streamers have been trying to stream hustings near them so people can see the choices they have, and a more accurate view of what the parties stand for than msm.
Obi has also been trying to get people to vote. Most of occupy don't believe in the current system, but quite a few did vote - and there was a shoutout on voting day at occupy democracy to remind people to vote.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:42 pm

yahyah wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:
yahyah wrote: Thanks.

I'm sorry I'm so volatile. Just so up and down at the moment.

My outlook on life is to be inclusive, and in other areas I want co-operation, unity, dialogue etc.
But with politics, when so many people will suffer, it is just so hard to keep cool and not knee jerk.

Am used to losing to the Tories, but this time the SNP and their two pals helped and that's a new angle, something fairly revolting to swallow.

The Caroline Lucas admission, and the news that groups from three so-called 'progressive' parties may be planning anti-Tory demos was like a spark to a dry haystack.

But am quite now.
yahyah, I'm sorry but I seem to be missing something here. The twitter link someone provided previously was regarding a march that is being organised by the Peoples Assembly. The article also connected to that link, regarding SNP, Plaid and the Greens having an anti austerity alliance was from December last year and isn't news. All three parties have consistently argued they are anti austerity.

The penultimate paragraph indicates Greens, Plaid and SNP are prepared to work together where there is agreement which is exactly what some of us on here have been discussing today. The last paragraph shows that at that time at least, Labour were not prepared to consider that option.

I could reasonably argue that Labour have got us into this mess by not being prepared to work with others.

Natalie Bennett also pointed out that despite the parties unity on certain subjects they are, of course, still in competition to each other: "We will continue to compete against each other electorally, and there remain very significant areas of policy disagreement."

A Labour spokesperson said that they wouldn't comment on such deals: "We are fighting to win the next election and wouldn't be speculating about this kind of thing. We're not going to speculate about coalition deals".

Sorry Tizme, I'm leaving dialogue with Greens for a while.

Not good for the blood pressure, and as I don't know what state the NHS will be in shortly I am being cautious.

That's your prerogative but unless Labour do engage with others, we'll have a Tory government post 2020 too.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:45 pm

PorFavor wrote:I'm thinking that there's nowhere left to go. Scotland is a no-no for all sorts of reasons - not least because, if they go it alone, they'll go bust; and if they don't things will be the same, if not worse, than here, I reckon. Europe may also soon not be an option as someone (sorry can't remember who) has suggested. I don't especially want to go anywhere, but I hate the feeling of being penned in like cattle in the slaughterhouse.

Waxing a tad melodramatic, now?

Definitely not PF. Whatever direction we're taking over the politics and why's and where's, I think we'd all agree the UK won't be such a pleasant place to live in now.

I don't feel comfortable in my skin. If you see what I mean.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:46 pm

At the time of Osborne’s first budget, I thought they would get back in this time. Pull the rug out from under the economy so it grinds to a halt, it’ll be bouncing back nicely in time for the next election. I didn’t think it had worked well enough to be successful, more fool me. People fell for it, under the influence of the MSM, and they’re about to fall for it all over again, that’s why he’s got that mad public spending see-saw in his forecasts that the OBR noted. Pity the OBR weren’t cynical or outspoken enough to point out what he was doing.

I've already said that I expect the tory strategy, as above, to be derailed by events. If ‘events’ don’t happen, they’ll get back in whatever Labour do. If the economy and our international relations are derailed to the extent that the media are forced to start reporting the truth, Labour need to be in the right place, which is imo roughly where it is now.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:57 pm

Not politics but putting this here because it is the busiest page:

A specific brand of Tramadol has been recalled.

https://www.gov.uk/drug-device-alerts/t ... tamination

I take Tramadol all the time but had missed this recall so please, if you use these, please check your brand is not affected.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:57 pm

Simon Danczuk's half pennyworth on why Labour lost.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... ur-MP.html

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:58 pm

SCOTLAND will be protected from Tory attempts to scrap the Human Rights Act in Westminster, the UK Government has conceded.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scotlan ... -1-3559633

Old article from when Cameron made his conference speech about wanting to axe it - but is apparently trending today.

Lucky Scotland to be shielded from some of the worst excesses of this government. No bedroom tax for them either.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 10 May, 2015 5:59 pm

Just to alert you, if you don't already know, ephemerid has written a post which might have been intended as a new thread (it's on the Politics board list). It's looking a bit alone - and worth a read.