FlyTheNest

ErnstRemarx wrote: The force of romanticism and starry eyed idealism, as well as healthy xenophobia about the English fuels some. Others see the erosion of the Scottish polity and surroundings due to a Westminster based government that they hardly voted for and in these cases, as well as in the name of self-determination (and in some cases a barely concealed chip on the shoulder and a wish to stick it to da man), people will be voting 'yes'.

The 'no' vote appears to be the rather more cautious (you might say realistic/sanguine) Scots who've apparently decided that the risks and the unknowns so charmingly skated over by Wee Eck and the SNP are pretty relevant when it's potentially your job, home and public services that might take the hit. For me, the currency question on its own (plus its numerous ramifications, of course) makes the whole thing a non-starter, but I'm not getting to vote, despite the fact that secession would affect the north of England.

You're right, of course, that the 'yes' campaign is built on romanticism, whereas the 'no' vote is based on realism.
Salmond's conflation of currency union and sterlingisation is just one of his ploys to avoid difficult questions (or rather, simple questions with vote-losing answers). On another subject - entry to the EU - he is also less than forthright.
A Holyrood committee inquired about entry and citizenship and got the following official reply:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_Eu ... 4__pdf.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So no "continuing membership" and hence no carry-forward of UK opt-outs.

Whatever the currency, the cost of living in an independent Scotland will increase, with, for example, at least 5% VAT on food. The EU directive on VAT states that:

"Taxable transactions are taxed at the rates and under the conditions set by the EU country where they take place. The standard rate of VAT is set as a percentage of the taxable amount which, until 31 December 2015, may not be less than 15 %.

"EU countries may apply one or two reduced rates of not less than 5 %. The reduced rates may only be applied to supplies of goods and services in the categories listed in Annex III to the VAT Directive (as last amended by Directive 2009/47/EC).

"The EU countries may also, after consultation of the VAT Committee, apply a reduced rate to supplies of natural gas, electricity and district heating".

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/taxation/l31057_en.htm

Funny how Salmond never mentions it!

edit - oops, seem to have screwed up the line length (urls not wrapping?)

Thanks Dan.

Temulkar wrote:

AngryAsWell wrote:

Temulkar wrote: Sadly I disagree, having lived in England for 20+ years before coming home and been subjected to non stop sheep shagging, odd shaped balls, speaks gibberish, mining "banter" that had it been about any other nationality would be called what it is - racism. Every time I see stuff like I am reminded that of all the countries I have lived in or visited, only in England have I had to put up with such behaviour.

It does drive people to say 'fuck them Im voting for independence.' That is why it is incredibly stupid for a national newspaper to throw shit like this out when the most important vote on the union for 300 years is only a few weeks away.

Anti-celtic banter is the last bastion of imperialist racism that is deemed acceptable and it really isnt.

I have lived in harmony (or so I thought) with the rest of the uk without a single jot of arrogance, looking down on, feelings of superiority or inferiority towards my fellow travellers. I took us "all" to be part of the same United Kingdom.
I can't say how sad I am to find that this is an illusion and fellow companions of this nation feel so - I don't know what the word is - but as though England, the English are somehow oppressors. To my shame, I have asked "do you speak Welsh", tried to speak about rugby when important matches were on or joked (so I thought) about kilts. My Irish friends take "banter" (and give it!) in good heart. I never knew trying to make conversation was seen in such a bad light. I'm clumsy conversational wise, I find it hard to break the ice with strangers or little know acquaintances so try to find a topic based around them, where they live and what life is like there. That may make me a lesser person in some eyes, but it doesn't make me racist.

Talking to someone about their culture is very different to abusing them through racial stereotypes.

Matter of opinion, how do I know how you (for instance) will take what I say at face value and not as an insult?

At a 3 day conference in Bristol some years ago I was constantly greeted with variation of
Ayoop - tis 'er from up norf make way afor she nicks ya breakfast. haha
Didn't know they let folk from your parts in places like this. haha
Count the cutlery! she's here! haha
Watch you hubby - fast as lightening these northern girls. haha
I bet your glad to be out of the rain for a few days. haha
These were acquaintances not close friends
Was I being abused by racial stereotypes, local stereotypes - or taking offence where none was meant.

Whatever the currency, the cost of living in an independent Scotland will increase, with, for example, at least 5% VAT on food.

Couldn't he take VAT off other things or redistribute the tax income progressively?

Sheffield Wednesday drawn away to Manchester City... oh well we needed to concentrate on the league anyway.

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

Whatever the currency, the cost of living in an independent Scotland will increase, with, for example, at least 5% VAT on food.

Couldn't he take VAT off other things or redistribute the tax income progressively?

There might be some scope for tinkering but he could only take 5% (max) off standard rate items, bringing them down to the EU minimum of 15%. Trouble is, VAT on food, children's clothes and public transport would probably hit the lower-paid more than a 5% decrease elsewhere would benefit them. The major supermarket chains also said that prices would increase due to distribution costs which would no longer be evened out across the UK.
VAT on food etc in Scotland could benefit the Carlisle and Berwick economies though.

AngryAsWell wrote:

Temulkar wrote:

AngryAsWell wrote: I have lived in harmony (or so I thought) with the rest of the uk without a single jot of arrogance, looking down on, feelings of superiority or inferiority towards my fellow travellers. I took us "all" to be part of the same United Kingdom.
I can't say how sad I am to find that this is an illusion and fellow companions of this nation feel so - I don't know what the word is - but as though England, the English are somehow oppressors. To my shame, I have asked "do you speak Welsh", tried to speak about rugby when important matches were on or joked (so I thought) about kilts. My Irish friends take "banter" (and give it!) in good heart. I never knew trying to make conversation was seen in such a bad light. I'm clumsy conversational wise, I find it hard to break the ice with strangers or little know acquaintances so try to find a topic based around them, where they live and what life is like there. That may make me a lesser person in some eyes, but it doesn't make me racist.

Talking to someone about their culture is very different to abusing them through racial stereotypes.

Matter of opinion, how do I know how you (for instance) will take what I say at face value and not as an insult?

At a 3 day conference in Bristol some years ago I was constantly greeted with variation of
Ayoop - tis 'er from up norf make way afor she nicks ya breakfast. haha
Didn't know they let folk from your parts in places like this. haha
Count the cutlery! she's here! haha
Watch you hubby - fast as lightening these northern girls. haha
I bet your glad to be out of the rain for a few days. haha
These were acquaintances not close friends
Was I being abused by racial stereotypes, local stereotypes - or taking offence where none was meant.

I would say that's stereotypical abuse disguised as banter. Asking me if I speak welsh(I do btw) is not a problem, telling me welsh is a gibberish language would very much be a problem.

Eric_WLothian wrote:

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

Whatever the currency, the cost of living in an independent Scotland will increase, with, for example, at least 5% VAT on food.

Couldn't he take VAT off other things or redistribute the tax income progressively?

There might be some scope for tinkering but he could only take 5% (max) off standard rate items, bringing them down to the EU minimum of 15%. Trouble is, VAT on food, children's clothes and public transport would probably hit the lower-paid more than a 5% decrease elsewhere would benefit them. The major supermarket chains also said that prices would increase due to distribution costs which would no longer be evened out across the UK.
VAT on food etc in Scotland could benefit the Carlisle and Berwick economies though.

"Waitrose Woman" would pay more than the poorest for food. What would be the problem of distributing that back via benefits? You can set those to reflect cost of living.

Just to let everyone know, I have installed a mobile theme for the site. You can switch to/from it via a link at the bottom of each page: It should remember your choice from session to session.

Edit to add:
We also have the favicon back (the one in the URL bar/bookmark/tab). Am still working on a better theme.

refitman wrote:Just to let everyone know, I have installed a mobile theme for the site. You can switch to/from it via a link at the bottom of each page:

mobile.png

It should remember your choice from session to session.

Straw poll.

Does anybody want a mobile theme?

I hate it, and to be honest the site doesn't seem too much of an issue on a modern mobile device.

Thanks again, Dan!

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

Eric_WLothian wrote:

Tubby Isaacs wrote: Couldn't he take VAT off other things or redistribute the tax income progressively?

There might be some scope for tinkering but he could only take 5% (max) off standard rate items, bringing them down to the EU minimum of 15%. Trouble is, VAT on food, children's clothes and public transport would probably hit the lower-paid more than a 5% decrease elsewhere would benefit them. The major supermarket chains also said that prices would increase due to distribution costs which would no longer be evened out across the UK.
VAT on food etc in Scotland could benefit the Carlisle and Berwick economies though.

"Waitrose Woman" would pay more than the poorest for food. What would be the problem of distributing that back via benefits? You can set those to reflect cost of living.

"Waitrose Woman" only has the choice of half a dozen branches in Scotland - and one of those is in Helensburgh, the nearest town to the Trident base!
Yes - any cost of living increase could (and should) be reflected in benefits. Trouble is, the biggest 'benefit' is the state pension and the SNP have admitted (in a leaked memo) that they will be strugglig to pay this even at current UK rates.
http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/on ... in-private
(I know that's a rather biased source, but it was widely covered elsewhere at the time).

Taxation is not a subject that is discussed in pro-independence circles (which was really my original point) - other than reducing corporation tax and APD.

TechnicalEphemera wrote:

refitman wrote:Just to let everyone know, I have installed a mobile theme for the site. You can switch to/from it via a link at the bottom of each page:

mobile.png

It should remember your choice from session to session.

Straw poll.

Does anybody want a mobile theme?

I hate it, and to be honest the site doesn't seem too much of an issue on a modern mobile device.

I partly installed it for me. Got fairly shitty mobile data at work and the lower bandwidth version loads quicker for me.

Eric_WLothian wrote:

ErnstRemarx wrote: The force of romanticism and starry eyed idealism, as well as healthy xenophobia about the English fuels some. Others see the erosion of the Scottish polity and surroundings due to a Westminster based government that they hardly voted for and in these cases, as well as in the name of self-determination (and in some cases a barely concealed chip on the shoulder and a wish to stick it to da man), people will be voting 'yes'.

The 'no' vote appears to be the rather more cautious (you might say realistic/sanguine) Scots who've apparently decided that the risks and the unknowns so charmingly skated over by Wee Eck and the SNP are pretty relevant when it's potentially your job, home and public services that might take the hit. For me, the currency question on its own (plus its numerous ramifications, of course) makes the whole thing a non-starter, but I'm not getting to vote, despite the fact that secession would affect the north of England.

You're right, of course, that the 'yes' campaign is built on romanticism, whereas the 'no' vote is based on realism.
Salmond's conflation of currency union and sterlingisation is just one of his ploys to avoid difficult questions (or rather, simple questions with vote-losing answers). On another subject - entry to the EU - he is also less than forthright.
A Holyrood committee inquired about entry and citizenship and got the following official reply:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_Eu ... 4__pdf.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So no "continuing membership" and hence no carry-forward of UK opt-outs.

Whatever the currency, the cost of living in an independent Scotland will increase, with, for example, at least 5% VAT on food. The EU directive on VAT states that:

"Taxable transactions are taxed at the rates and under the conditions set by the EU country where they take place. The standard rate of VAT is set as a percentage of the taxable amount which, until 31 December 2015, may not be less than 15 %.

"EU countries may apply one or two reduced rates of not less than 5 %. The reduced rates may only be applied to supplies of goods and services in the categories listed in Annex III to the VAT Directive (as last amended by Directive 2009/47/EC).

"The EU countries may also, after consultation of the VAT Committee, apply a reduced rate to supplies of natural gas, electricity and district heating".

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/taxation/l31057_en.htm

Funny how Salmond never mentions it!

edit - oops, seem to have screwed up the line length (urls not wrapping?)

That's what I find the most exasperating about the 'yes' campaign. They have every right to promote their views, but there seems to be so little there after you get beyond the stardust and Rob Ray rhetoric as to defy comprehension. Are Scots really going to leap into such a dark space based upon Salmond's blustering and a recent viewing of Braveheart? I really don't see it.

The 'No' campaign - other than Darling - has, I have to say been pretty shit. They could have hammered Salmond on the economy and the currency from the word go, and then said 'ah, but if you remain in the Union, here are not only the goodies that you already have, but here are others you've probably not thought about' and offered devo max - which I predict is a likely outcome if it's a 'no' vote.

That would sway votes. At the mo, it doesn't matter to Salmond if he loses, because he still wins, as devo max will come his way in all likelihood. If it's 'yes' and it works - highly unlikely from everything I've seen and read - then he's a happy bunny; if it fucks up big style - which I see as a far more likely scenario - then wee Eck will still be in his job in politics (something a lot of Scots may not share as a lifestyle) and he can blame perfidious albion which, I suspect, is his first port of call before declaring the vote rigged, which I expect from some of the more gonzo 'yes' advocates.

Also, the forum style may be jumping about a bit as I try to find a nice one.

Speaking of which, thoughts on this one?

letsskiptotheleft wrote:



" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking at the 2010 result it's perfectly possible for Farage to take enough from the Tories to let Labour in. it only went Tory in 2010 so it could well sing back.

I think I might laugh so much I'd do myself a mischief if that happened...

refitman wrote:Also, the forum style may be jumping about a bit as I try to find a nice one.

Speaking of which, thoughts on this one?

Preferred it as it was before. Sorry. (Appreciate all you are doing muchly.)

refitman wrote:

TechnicalEphemera wrote:

refitman wrote:Just to let everyone know, I have installed a mobile theme for the site. You can switch to/from it via a link at the bottom of each page:

mobile.png

It should remember your choice from session to session.

Straw poll.

Does anybody want a mobile theme?

I hate it, and to be honest the site doesn't seem too much of an issue on a modern mobile device.

I partly installed it for me. Got fairly shitty mobile data at work and the lower bandwidth version loads quicker for me.

Fair enough then.

It has one user, so it earns its keep.

rebeccariots2 wrote:

refitman wrote:Also, the forum style may be jumping about a bit as I try to find a nice one.

Speaking of which, thoughts on this one?

Preferred it as it was before. Sorry. (Appreciate all you are doing muchly.)

Yes, me too.

I just looked for the Quote button and it's tiny!

RogerOThornhill wrote:

letsskiptotheleft wrote:



" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking at the 2010 result it's perfectly possible for Farage to take enough from the Tories to let Labour in. it only went Tory in 2010 so it could well sing back.

I think I might laugh so much I'd do myself a mischief if that happened...

I can't help but associate Thanet with Ian Dury and Janet from Thanet who looked like a gannet. Every time I read about Nige and his newly adopted political springboard I hear the wonderful Billericay ditty and imagine what kind of song Dury might have penned about UKIP ....

RogerOThornhill wrote:

rebeccariots2 wrote:

refitman wrote:Also, the forum style may be jumping about a bit as I try to find a nice one.

Speaking of which, thoughts on this one?

Preferred it as it was before. Sorry. (Appreciate all you are doing muchly.)

Yes, me too.

I just looked for the Quote button and it's tiny!

Fair-do's. Changed it back.

Will keep looking.

PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 15m
Shaun Wright, the South Yorkshire PCC, has resigned from the Labour Party but will remain as police commissioner http://polho.me/1pGigfU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know what to say about that.

PCCs are proving to be a real source of political embarrassment all round. Those of us that were worried about them politicising policing were right ... but we probably didn't foresee some of the ways in which it would happen.

Bedfordshire crime commissioner suspended from Labour party
Olly Martins suspended after IPCC refers investigation into disclosure of information about a death in custody to the CPS
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/27/bedfordshire-crime-commissioner-suspended-olly-martins

rebeccariots2 wrote:

PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 15m
Shaun Wright, the South Yorkshire PCC, has resigned from the Labour Party but will remain as police commissioner http://polho.me/1pGigfU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know what to say about that.

Less embarrassment for labour, more for Theresa May because she can't do a thing about him.

A bit Machiavellian but...it wouldn't have been suggested that he stay put to cause maximum discomfort for May and the whole Tory PCC policy would it?

TechnicalEphemera wrote:

refitman wrote:Just to let everyone know, I have installed a mobile theme for the site. You can switch to/from it via a link at the bottom of each page:

mobile.png

It should remember your choice from session to session.

Straw poll.

Does anybody want a mobile theme?

I hate it, and to be honest the site doesn't seem too much of an issue on a modern mobile device.

Yes please! I have an iPhone 4 (please don't judge me) and the normal site is really tiny on the weeny iPhone screen, even if I rotate to landscape, so yes, mobile version please. Having said that, I haven't actually seen the mobile version yet, so put this down to pre-emptive wishful thinking.