Wednesday 10th.August 2016

[PorFavor]

I notice that Craig Oliver (ex lefty-BBC) got his knighthood and even the useless Julian Glover (ex lefty-Guardian) got a gong!

Julian Glover? Somehow, that one passed me by. He's not even good at what he does\did.

So - thanks for ruining my day!

[RogerOThornhill]

Julian Glover? Somehow, that one passed me by. He's not even good at what he does\did.

So - thanks for ruining my day!

Sorry...

OBE
Julian GLOVER
Lately Special Adviser to the Prime Minister. For political and public service

[AnatolyKasparov]

Morning Ephie.

May I mention Labour in a positive light ? Well Welsh Labour that is.
We're fortunate to have Carwyn at the helm, and a party here that aren't tearing themselves apart at the Assembly.

Carwyn's setting up an advisory group to help ensure Wales gets the best deal it can from the Brexit negotiations. Brexit voters will be unhappy as it will compromise experts with an understanding of EU procedures, as well as politicians and business representatives.

Plaid and Labour have also announced a liaison committee to look at the implications of Brexit.
Plenty of opportunities there for Wood to self publicise.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/b ... h-11723140" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Carwyn isn't perfect, but is a good guy.

[HindleA]

Yeah,I did think of mentioning it previously.I couldn't summon up the necessary to type the words

[AnatolyKasparov]

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 6m6 minutes ago

Steve Rotherham, Corbyn's PPS, wins Liverpool mayoral nomination against Joe Anderson and Luciana Berger.

It's a shame to lose Rotheram from parliament but I'm delighted the godawful Anderson didn't get the nod.

Agreed.

'Steve Rotheram wins Labour nomination for city region metro mayor with 2029 votes compared to Joe Anderson's 1641 & 1202 For Luciana Berger'

JA was getting more and more marmite. Only 439 ahead of Berger? Wow. I'm also surprised on the number of eligible voters across such a large populace.

Turnout was actually decent - don't forget there is a year's membership "cut off" for these elections so the mass of new members won't have been eligible.

[gilsey]

Nobody's perfect.

(Some Like it Hot).

[StephenDolan]

Well blow me down. I thought if the left and the right criticised the BBC they were correct?

'BBC has high dependency on Tory government for statistics'

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/a ... servatives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[StephenDolan]

It's a shame to lose Rotheram from parliament but I'm delighted the godawful Anderson didn't get the nod.

Agreed.

'Steve Rotheram wins Labour nomination for city region metro mayor with 2029 votes compared to Joe Anderson's 1641 & 1202 For Luciana Berger'

JA was getting more and more marmite. Only 439 ahead of Berger? Wow. I'm also surprised on the number of eligible voters across such a large populace.

Turnout was actually decent - don't forget there is a year's membership "cut off" for these elections so the mass of new members won't have been eligible.

Thanks as usual to the FTN resident psephologist

[ephemerid]

And this on Brexit is superb

https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.c ... s-serious/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes it is good. In my dim and distant past I understood all about customs clearances and checks on non-EU exports.

Wonder if the Brexit department has seconded people from HMRC who are now telling ministers exactly this kind of thing?

It backs up some of what Prof Michael Dougan has been saying. Many people seem to think 'trade agreements' only involve the setting of tariffs and don't realise the complexity of what it would involve. In any case it's a bit academic right now as we can't start negotiating what comes next until the two years are up and we've left.

If only we could have seen some of this discussed during the campaign. But then it would have just been denounced as 'project fear' or 'talking Britain down' no doubt.

I was listening to a R4 programme a few weeks ago in which a Canadian lady was discussing how they were negotiating CETA.
She said they had 300 legal/trade experts on the team, and she reckoned we'd need about 500.

So far, we've got, er, David Davis.

And this - http://www.gov.uk/government/organisati ... nion/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's a little linky that says "jobs", which takes you to the Civil Service jobsearch page; on the drop-down menu for "organisation" there is no mention of the new department.

I want to be girlie in charge of tea and biscuits. That would really piss off Jess Phillips when I could aspire to be girlie in charge of a clipboard. Just goes to show that Jeremy Corbyn is not listening to her pleas for equal treatment of girlies with real ambition.

Dear Jess Tweeted this morning that today was "going to be a mutetastic (sic) day".
She lasted about 10 minutes.

[HindleA]

I nominated myself for an honour,I think it depends,some are done by "precedent/expected" ie. If you are in certain positions for so long you are more or less guaranteed to get one.It goes before a panel I was succesful but declined in protest.

[RogerOThornhill]

Plans To Scrap The Human Rights Act May Be Scrapped

http://rightsinfo.org/plans-scrap-human ... -scrapped/

The government’s long-heralded plan to scrap the Human Rights Act and replace it with a British Bill of Rights may be put on hold, rewritten or even scrapped.

The Times report today that Theresa May has asked Liz Truss, the new Justice Secretary, to revisit the plans after the UK voted to exit the European Union. The proposal may even be junked altogether.

A Whitehall source told The Times that “it was all ready to go”. But now that Michael Gove, who did most of the work on the current plans, has been sacked, the idea may be “junked” whilst the Ministry of Justice concentrates on prison reform.

Scrapping it would please the loons on the right but when govt legal eagles are likely to be tied up on Brexit it's not even close to being at the top of the to do list.

[SpinningHugo]

In any case it's a bit academic right now as we can't start negotiating what comes next until the two years are up and we've left.
.

Again, he doesn't say that. Mainly because it is wrong. Nothing legally stopping anybody negotiating about anything.

[HindleA]

But you are correct of course a lot of people more deserving just quitely doing wonderful things.

[yahyah]

Just seen that the Duke of Westminster, third richest billionaire in Britain has died.
He was second cousin twice removed to Hugh 'Bendor' Grovsvenor*, a previous Duke of Westminster.

Am currently reading a book about Coco Chanel's collaboration with the Nazis.
Bendor was, like her, a notorious anti-semite and right winger.

During the years that millions were unemployed, or later losing their lives in the holocaust his views encouraged, he was showering his immense wealth on his lovers in the form of fabulous jewels and gifts of expensive real estate.

*correct spelling, even though it looks wrong.

I see that the Guardian is spelling it thus -

"Grosvenor". I can't do with being confused this early in the day.

I was so anxious to get it right that I got it wrong ! Trying not to type Grovesnor lead to an extra v worming its way in. Must be related to those apostrophes that creep around when you aren't looking.

[yahyah]

Re the EUref, I read a few articles correlating voting leave with the personality trait, 'openness to experience', ie. less openness, more likely to vote leave.

It led me to wonder, if that was true, and if young people were more likely to vote remain than older ones, there are 2 possibilities.

1. Younger people today are different from previous generations because of their different experiences, most likely due to the internet, or

2. We really do turn into our parents, and 'openness to experience' declines with age.

If the first of these is true, then opposing Brexit has some moral force, imo. By the time we've achieved it, those young people who voted against it will be 35-50 years old and even more pissed off than they are now.

If the NHS reorganisation was 'so big you could see it from space', how big is the reorganisation of our legal framework to extract us from the EU? What a waste of time and effort it will be, even if May doesn't, in the end, press the trigger.

Mike Smithson or someone tweeted something the other day showing younger people were more likely to vote remain if they were from the higher social groups, not so many amongst young people classed as CDE's.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Yes, but young people generally were still much more likely to vote "remain" than the population as a whole.

(younger people in the "CDE" category seemed more inclined to abstain than vote for Brexit)

[howsillyofme1]

As is quite common a certain someone speaking in black and white when the situation is anything but

With regards to EU and UK trade there is a strong view that we cannot negotiate trade until we have left. Obviously this has never been tested in law so the legal arguments could be complex but the view here is the same as I read was the view of the civil service in their briefing document on Brexit

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36684876" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The EU Trade Commissioner has said no trade negotiations before we are completely out and some of the Council have said the same.

With others it is more ambiguous as they talk of negotiation after A50 invocation but this is not clear if they mean Brexit alone or Trade as well

There does seem to be a consensus that nothing will be discussed before A50 though - at least nothing that will have any material effect and so we exist in a 'phoney war' until then

The only benefit of a delay is for the UK to get itself ready for the negotiation but we have seen precious little indication that this is happening

My own personal, and perhaps wrong view, is that during Brexit negotiations we will be offered a simple Single Market yes/no offer (similar to Norway) and if we say no then negotiations will occur post exit as they will be complex and lengthy

I very much doubt the Government would or could say yes to that with the implications for Free Movement and the role of the City and passporting will also be quite detailed I guess

There seems to be an argument that the Commission is irrelevant here and it will all be negotiated through the Council of Ministers. I am very skeptical of the argument myself. The Council will decide but the Commission will be the ones doing the detailed work and will have lots of influence. The dismissal of the Commission as some do is not that helpful if this is the case

[pk1]

Sam Stopp, Labour Councillor for Wembley Central, has a letter to be sent to the Graun calling on the Labour Party to commit to ending homelessness, for which he is asking for signatures of Labour members who'd like to support him.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

@RobertSnozers

None of your quote from Dougan backs up your proposition either.

[HindleA]

https://www.parliament.uk/business/comm ... ent-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Disability and the built environment inquiry
Scope of the inquiry
The accessibility of our homes, buildings and public spaces is an issue not just for those of us with a permanent physical disability. With an ageing population, it is likely that more and more of us will experience reduced mobility in our lifetime. There are also other needs to consider, such as mental health. In this inquiry we explore the extent to which those needs are considered and accommodated in our built environment, and ask whether more could be done to increase the accessibility and inclusivity of both new and existing properties and spaces.


http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... sion-form/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HindleA]

http://m.derbytelegraph.co.uk/chris-gra ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Derby's Bombardier lands £1 billion East Anglia trains deal





https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bett ... -announced" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JonnyT1234]

His 21st birthday party at Eaton Hall, which reportedly cost £5m, also made the newspapers...

.... “The party was simply amazing – a birthday and a party I will never forget”

Well, you 'd certainly hope so, wouldn't you.

New Duke of Westminster inherits £9bn fortune aged 25

Edit: Of course, if you were more rock and roll, it's one that you'd not have a hope in hell of ever remembering...

[tinybgoat]

Good morfternoon.

On the subject of the EU - this, from yesterday:

Norway may block UK return to European Free Trade Association

Norwegian politicians to meet UK’s Brexit minister amid concerns that allowing Britain to rejoin will shift balance of organisation (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ssociation

And I echo yahyah's thoughts on rebeccariots2.



@yahyah

Hope today's enterprise goes well for you.

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86175

The Guardian is keen to tell us that, by opposing a UK return to Efta, Norway would in effect block our chances of staying in the Single Market via the EEA, but there is a long way to go before we see anything conclusive.
If push comes to shove, and the EU itself decides that the way forward is for the UK to be accommodated in an EEA-type agreement, and found Efta members intransigent, it could even collapse the EEA Agreement (which it could do by asking all the 28 EU members to withdraw from it). Then it could re-establish an identical treaty and invite all Efta members and the UK to join.
In other words, there are plenty of possibilities beyond the limited vision of the Guardian . And even then, there is a distinct advantage to Norway in having the UK on board, as it strengthens its hand when it comes to renegotiating the EEA Agreement – a long-term objective of the Norwegian Left.
Thus we see Audun Lysbakken, leader of Norway's Socialist Left party arguing that the EEA agreement should be renegotiated, with the UK's help, saying countries "outside [the EU] need a better model for cooperation with the EU than the current EEA agreement".

I don't understand a lot of this, but wouldn't 'collapse the EEA Agreement' cause a lot of trouble for other countries, i
e. having to renegotiate various things?

The Author was also responsible for 'flexcit', which I'd not heard of, but sounds more sensible than 'brexit' (apart from awful name).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexcit

[JonnyT1234]

Though the 7th Duke of Westminster has two older sisters, he inherits the title and estate, which includes 190 acres in Belgravia and thousands of acres in Scotland and Spain, through the rule of primogeniture, which puts male children ahead of female siblings irrespective of age.

Sigh. One step forward, several centuries backwards.

[yahyah]

Sad to see Ed Miliband coming in for so much ridicule for daring to express an opinion.

[tinybgoat]

Plans To Scrap The Human Rights Act May Be Scrapped

http://rightsinfo.org/plans-scrap-human ... -scrapped/

The government’s long-heralded plan to scrap the Human Rights Act and replace it with a British Bill of Rights may be put on hold, rewritten or even scrapped.

The Times report today that Theresa May has asked Liz Truss, the new Justice Secretary, to revisit the plans after the UK voted to exit the European Union. The proposal may even be junked altogether.

A Whitehall source told The Times that “it was all ready to go”. But now that Michael Gove, who did most of the work on the current plans, has been sacked, the idea may be “junked” whilst the Ministry of Justice concentrates on prison reform.

Scrapping it would please the loons on the right but when govt legal eagles are likely to be tied up on Brexit it's not even close to being at the top of the to do list.

Scrapping it would also seem odd if gvt. is serious about "Human rights should be at the very heart of foreign policy." :-

http://www.conservativehome.com/platfor ... buses.html

[HindleA]

Reminds me I'll have to get my will sorted out.I might donate some items to a museum.I've got an eclectic mix of collections of historical significance-Rizla papers through the decades that kind of thing.

[ephemerid]

Rio!

D'oh of the day (so far) - Chris Boardman commentating on the women's time trials: "She's good at going uphill. She's also good at going down hills. You need that in an event like this".

Er, yes. You do.

[StephenDolan]

See, see Tom Watson was right! The Reds, they're coming!

Leader of expelled leftwing group Militant expects readmission to Labour

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... our-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tinybgoat]

Reminds me I'll have to get my will sorted out.I might donate some items to a museum.I've got an eclectic mix of collections of historical significance-Rizla papers through the decades that kind of thing.

Any pre 1865?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rizla

Oh, so that's why Nick Drake's album was called
"Five Leaves Left"

[yahyah]

Ephie@ my other half is a cycling fan and he says some cyclists are more skilled at descending or ascending so it isn't as daft as it sounds.

[yahyah]

Not sure who's been condescending, may have missed some aggro earlier while I was out, but just want to clarify my comment about Ed M being disparaged is a reference to social media and Cif, not here.

[pk1]

Apologies if this has been linked to already:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/e ... afa75c7533" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A post on Socialist Party website three days later read: “Wirral Socialist Party welcomed and attended the meeting, which should be the start of a mass fightback to deselect Angela Eagle MP and the other Blairites.”

It went on: “A Socialist Party member calling for the deselection of all Blairite politicians, including cuts-making councillors, received strong applause.”

[StephenDolan]

OJ latest is worth a read by all.

Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour opponents should accept that their failures created him

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... s-failures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[StephenDolan]

Apologies if this has been linked to already:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/e ... afa75c7533" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A post on Socialist Party website three days later read: “Wirral Socialist Party welcomed and attended the meeting, which should be the start of a mass fightback to deselect Angela Eagle MP and the other Blairites.”

It went on: “A Socialist Party member calling for the deselection of all Blairite politicians, including cuts-making councillors, received strong applause.”

HuffPo editorial line seems to have changed dramatically in the past couple of months.

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/08/1 ... our-party/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PorFavor]

Not sure who's been condescending, may have missed some aggro earlier while I was out, but just want to clarify my comment about Ed M being disparaged is a reference to social media and Cif, not here.

Well there was also the comment about 'twits' and the implication that Hugo's disdain for people who voted for Corbyn is justified, which I take exception to. There seems to be a general air at the moment that it's OK to be rude about Corbyn and Momentum but anything said against the other 'side' will be picked apart and tutted over. So for the time being I've had enough. Consider this a flounce.

Would that be a full-blown flounce or what might be termed a flouncette? I must ask you to be more precise and, if possible, provide references.

[mbc1955]

It really doesn't work, does it?

I'm not the one to criticise Robert and his frustrations, having taken exactly the same steps, but it's very noticeable that, on a day when we've set ourselves not to mention Topic A, it still comes up and there's another fracture.

Can we really not get through a single effing day without the same damned thing coming up? I am coming to question the worth of still following this site at all.

[RogerOThornhill]

It really doesn't work, does it?

I'm not the one to criticise Robert and his frustrations, having taken exactly the same steps, but it's very noticeable that, on a day when we've set ourselves not to mention Topic A, it still comes up and there's another fracture.

Can we really not get through a single effing day without the same damned thing coming up? I am coming to question the worth of still following this site at all.

Separate thread for Labour leadership and leave it open for those who want to post in it?

[pala]

Owen Jones:

Unless there is a dramatic and unlikely political upset, Jeremy Corbyn will again win the Labour leadership contest. It will be a victory gifted by his opponents.

Emphasis added.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... s-failures

[citizenJA]

Good-afternoon, everyone.

[mbc1955]

It really doesn't work, does it?

I'm not the one to criticise Robert and his frustrations, having taken exactly the same steps, but it's very noticeable that, on a day when we've set ourselves not to mention Topic A, it still comes up and there's another fracture.

Can we really not get through a single effing day without the same damned thing coming up? I am coming to question the worth of still following this site at all.

Separate thread for Labour leadership and leave it open for those who want to post in it?

I think it's going to have to be necessary. And anyone who then brings the subject up on the main thread gets banned, instantly.

[PorFavor]

It really doesn't work, does it?

I'm not the one to criticise Robert and his frustrations, having taken exactly the same steps, but it's very noticeable that, on a day when we've set ourselves not to mention Topic A, it still comes up and there's another fracture.

Can we really not get through a single effing day without the same damned thing coming up? I am coming to question the worth of still following this site at all.

Separate thread for Labour leadership and leave it open for those who want to post in it?

I think it's going to have to be necessary. And anyone who then brings the subject up on the main thread gets banned, instantly.

But I'll forget and, if something earth shattering occurs in the news, I'll post it here. Also, I'll forget where I am and then inadvertently forget to change threads thus putting my foot in it.

[55DegreesNorth]

Afternoon folks,
In the spirit with today's request, I'm ignoring he who must not be named as well as the beardy one. Instead, some local news.

Boy 1, having graduated, has gone looking for pavements of gold in that London. Sad, but inevitable I suppose. On the upside, he's going to be able to pop into Brixton Cycles to get me some new socks.

I've just picked the third bowl of orange cherry tomatoes this season. Delicious. A good crop of beefsteak and moneymakers developing nicely.

When I was a kid, I read a trilogy, autobiographical I think, about a boy growing up in Filey at the end of the 19th century. Can't remember name or author, but it's always made me want to visit the place. After a lot of near misses, I'm away down there tomorrow for a quick camping trip. So it's drizzly walks, fish and chips and time warp nostalgia for me & her.

Best wishes to all, whether flounced or unflounced (or reflounced).

[HindleA]

Instant banning? not having that.I mention it the least of anybody.The people that mention it most are the people bemoaning it is bloody mentioned.
Screw that. I lower to the same level of so called debate I usually just ignore.Corbyn's got a boil on his bum so there.
Another thread without the ban threat.

[mbc1955]

Separate thread for Labour leadership and leave it open for those who want to post in it?

I think it's going to have to be necessary. And anyone who then brings the subject up on the main thread gets banned, instantly.

But I'll forget and, if something earth shattering occurs in the news, I'll post it here. Also, I'll forget where I am and then inadvertently forget to change threads thus putting my foot in it.

Nothing personal, Por Favor, I think it's just a final straw for me.

This place has been demolished by Hugo. The thread jumps at his every word, he controls discussion here and no matter how blatant his provocation, or open his contempt towards everyone else here, people cannot resist responding to his agenda. As if he listens to a single word any of you or I say? We cannot get through a single day without more arguments and frustrations, inspired by a post of his.

There is only one solution and that is to ban him, which goes against every principle this site holds dear. If this were my site, I would have banned him ages ago. He is nothing but trouble, he stinks the place out. It is now functionally impossible to discuss issues with respect or engage with differences. It's worthless for me to log in here any more.

So, I've never been someone for such crassness as him-or-me ultimatums. If it's got to that point, it's gone past the point at which you shoud have walked away already, and I'm now walking away. Thank you to everyone with whom I've engaged and I wish you, individually and collectively, the best of luck. I won't articulate what I wish Hugo.

See you in the funny papers.

[PorFavor]

I think it's going to have to be necessary. And anyone who then brings the subject up on the main thread gets banned, instantly.

But I'll forget and, if something earth shattering occurs in the news, I'll post it here. Also, I'll forget where I am and then inadvertently forget to change threads thus putting my foot in it.

Nothing personal, Por Favor, I think it's just a final straw for me.

This place has been demolished by Hugo. The thread jumps at his every word, he controls discussion here and no matter how blatant his provocation, or open his contempt towards everyone else here, people cannot resist responding to his agenda. As if he listens to a single word any of you or I say? We cannot get through a single day without more arguments and frustrations, inspired by a post of his.

There is only one solution and that is to ban him, which goes against every principle this site holds dear. If this were my site, I would have banned him ages ago. He is nothing but trouble, he stinks the place out. It is now functionally impossible to discuss issues with respect or engage with differences. It's worthless for me to log in here any more.

So, I've never been someone for such crassness as him-or-me ultimatums. If it's got to that point, it's gone past the point at which you shoud have walked away already, and I'm now walking away. Thank you to everyone with whom I've engaged and I wish you, individually and collectively, the best of luck. I won't articulate what I wish Hugo.

See you in the funny papers.

It's perverse of you to allow SpinningHugo (who to me is, at worst, a minor irritation and who occasionally posts things of interest) to "win".

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Oh blimey shall I go back on holiday?

[howsillyofme1]

Oh dear, some very good friends have announced they are leaving the board today...all I can say is I hope they reconsider

I am sympathetic to some of the comments being made but hope that they do not give in to what is the desired outcome

Welcome back Paul.....

[pk1]

Bit silly complaining about politics discussion on the Daily Politics thread.

Surprised nobody has mentioned that the GMB (who balloted their members, unlike Unite) have backed Owen Smith by 60% to 40% for Corbyn.

@Paul - hope you had a good holiday

[StephenDolan]

Muting. Tis the way forward. I've tried it here and elsewhere and I can feel my blood pressure lower. It's the ramipril of posting. Side effects include less likely to take a break, temporary or permanent.

May induce extra emoticon behaviour.