Monday 15th August 2016

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

Post deleted because no point in engaging with those of a certain mind set, who see Blairites under their beds, and have left it on last night's thread where it belongs.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 8:06 am

NHS privatisation

The NHS suffered less than other areas of public spending in the last parliament because of the ringfence. If you were reliant on social care or disability benefits you really suffered. But Labour always focuses on the NHS because unlike say disability benefits, the vast majority of people make use of the NHS. One large area of the NHS that has always been private are GPs. This makes this an 'interesting' development

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/tec ... atisation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Having more than once had serious problems getting a GP appointment, and with a job that gives me little flexibility, I may be forced to use this.

I am also pretty sure that GP waiting times had an influence on the Brexit vote. People think they can't see their GPs because of pressure from immigrants.

Free at the point of use is what matters, not privatisation, and that is what is going.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 8:45 am

Morning All

Apparently, Margaret Beckett is trending

I understand that she said on Today 'We've had examples of people joining because of Jeremy..those arent members of Labour but members of a fan club'

This will be going down great in her own constituency, which nominated, yes, Corbyn

[I don't know how I misspelt nominated in my first effort but it autocorrected to nematode!]

Morning!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 8:48 am

SpinningHugo wrote:NHS privatisation

The NHS suffered less than other areas of public spending in the last parliament because of the ringfence. If you were reliant on social care or disability benefits you really suffered. But Labour always focuses on the NHS because unlike say disability benefits, the vast majority of people make use of the NHS. One large area of the NHS that has always been private are GPs. This makes this an 'interesting' development

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/tec ... atisation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Having more than once had serious problems getting a GP appointment, and with a job that gives me little flexibility, I may be forced to use this.

I am also pretty sure that GP waiting times had an influence on the Brexit vote. People think they can't see their GPs because of pressure from immigrants.

Free at the point of use is what matters, not privatisation, and that is what is going.

Your penultimate point, yes absolutely. The right have systematically set the more vulnerable groups in our society against each other and positively encouraged them to see themselves as battling each other for resources.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 8:48 am

Nematodes destroy slugs and other pests.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 8:52 am

Almost politics.....

Well done Andy Murray for pointing out to the BBC that he isn't in fact the first person to win two olympic golds for tennis.

Unsurprisingly, both Serena and Venus Williams have achieved this.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 9:10 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Almost politics.....

Well done Andy Murray for pointing out to the BBC that he isn't in fact the first person to win two olympic golds for tennis.

Unsurprisingly, both Serena and Venus Williams have achieved this.

Indeed.

In a way, I can't help feeling a bit "meh" about millionaire professionals competing in the Olympics, even though very few elite sports people are truly amateur these days.
And then I watch the indefatigable Nadal fighting all the way, and a match of superlative quality form Murray and Del Potro, and I have to applaud. Magnificent stuff.

I am also pleased that Usain Bolt won the 100M - it reinforces th idea that drug cheats (however long ago the offence took place) do not prosper in the long run. Or the short.....

Despite the farty pool, I think Rio has put on an excellent show so far.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 9:30 am

Also "almost politics".....

"Labour Tomorrow" was registered at Companies House in April by Nicola Murphy (Chris Leslies' wife) with David Blunkett and Brenda Dean joining in June as directors.
"Labour Tomorrow" has a Twitter account which states that it will be "unveiled officially soon", and has more than 2,000 followers, most of which appear to be spambots.

The website says it "raises, coordinates, and distributes funds for moderate centre-left organisations which are committed to rebuilding a consensus for a Labour government".
There is one blog, dated July 25th., which talks about the future of the party and carries the line "The process of renewal cannot be restricted to sorting out its leader".

So it would appear that this outfit has ambitions for Labour and supporting moderates etc. but first wants to "sort out" the party leader.
How collegiate is that?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 9:46 am

Morning all.

Dearie me, there's an awful lot of right wing screeching about Smith's comments about the NHS. Two comments:

1. Banging on about "But Labour did it more" are pointless since both are dead set against the "public sector reform"-ers that are closer to the Tories than they think Labour ought to be.

2. Given that they actually want more private provision in the NHS or even its break up surely the default position should be "So what? Bring it on!"

NB showing a graph that ends in 2013/4 is a bit irrelevant given that we're now in 2016...

Edit - typo oops!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 10:01 am

Morning all.

The Trots Nazi Stormtroopers Fan Club. Sounds like something from the Grant Shapps random press release generator.

Beckett tied herself in knots earlier I thought. Doesn't want an official split in the party but if Corbyn wins again indicates the best thing to do would be to take the real Labour Party from the fan club.

Those pesky CLPs. They should know their place.

A final thought, if say one of the Union leaders had referred to Labour supporters of Smith as Nazi stormtroopers how much condemnation would there be from the media and the PLP?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 10:22 am

NHS General Practitioners are self-employed as individuals but funded collectively by the taxpayer.

GP funding from central NHS coffers is practice-based; ie. the practice is paid per patient at about £135 per patient per year. Some Practices get a lot more than that; some less. That is supposed to cover - an average of 6 surgery visits a year, home visits, screening and well-person care, diagnostics, district/community nursing, midwifery services, and chronic disease management. GP pay is dependent on various factors, including experience, size of caseload, dispensing rights, etc. and the average pay of a GP in NHS England is just under £100,000PA.

We are already paying to see our GPs. If NHS GPs have the space in their appointment lists to see people who will pay £39.99, they have space for people who need to see them but cannot pay. This new "app" idea seems to suggest that these paid appointments are with GPs who are NHS GPs and I think it is wrong.

The problem is chronic underfunding of primary care services, with a shortage of qualified people willing to be GPs. If someone gets a paid GP appointment someone else is having to wait longer. Queue-jumping is as immoral in this situation as it is in Sainsbury's. If people want to pay to see a private GP, they can do that any time they like - in the same way that they can go private if they need elective surgery but don't want to wait for the NHS to provide it.

If people have the cash to jump the queue, they should do it where it's already common practice. Not in the NHS.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 10:32 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

The Trots Nazi Stormtroopers Fan Club. Sounds like something from the Grant Shapps random press release generator.

Beckett tied herself in knots earlier I thought. Doesn't want an official split in the party but if Corbyn wins again indicates the best thing to do would be to take the real Labour Party from the fan club.

Those pesky CLPs. They should know their place.

A final thought, if say one of the Union leaders had referred to Labour supporters of Smith as Nazi stormtroopers how much condemnation would there be from the media and the PLP?

It's very insulting to surviving WW2 service men and women and the families of those who died.

Sadly not much in the way of apologies as far as I could see yesterday on Twitter. Haven't looked yet today.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 10:48 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Dearie me, there's an awful lot of right wing screeching about Smith's comments about the NHS. Two comments:

1. Banging on about "But Labour did it more" are pointless since both are dead set against the "public sector reform"-ers that are closer to the Tories than they think Labour ought to be.

2. Given that they actually want more private provision in the NHS or even its break up surely the default position should be "So what? Bring it on!"

NB showing a graph that ends in 2013/4 is a bit irrelevant given that we're now in 2016...

Edit - typo oops!

This by James Meek from 2011 gives the background from 1990 when Ken Clark introduced the internal market

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v33/n18/james-meek ... y-happened" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's written extensively on that since then at the LRB, and i recc his book Private island on the wider subject .

Privatisation ? It's already happened .

At least in France, we know whether we're going to a public hospital or Private 'clinique' , while in England the logo is the same --- "NHS". Very cheeky.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 10:59 am

Happy Birthday Kier Hardie. What happened?

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JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 11:13 am

ohsocynical wrote:Happy Birthday Kier Hardie. What happened?

Cp4rNJAWgAAvStL.jpg

His beard came back into fashion. His politics did not.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 11:18 am

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ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 11:33 am

Jane Aitchison ‏@JaneAitchison 3h3 hours ago

I wonder how many people ever joined Labour to support Margaret Becket?

True

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 11:41 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning All

Apparently, Margaret Beckett is trending

I understand that she said on Today 'We've had examples of people joining because of Jeremy..those arent members of Labour but members of a fan club'

This will be going down great in her own constituency, which nominated, yes, Corbyn

[I don't know how I misspelt nominated in my first effort but it autocorrected to nematode!]

Morning!

So nobody joined "because of Blair" during Labour's previous membership surge?

And why is it only people like me on social media who ask questions like this, not our brilliantly objective and insightful BBC journalists??

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 11:51 am

Good summary article from Dana Nuccitelli of Skeptical Science/the guardian of why we're ~~all doomed~~ fast running out of time to do anything about catastrophic climate change, for any that are interested.

Yet from the carbon pollution we’ve already put into the atmosphere, we’re committed to 1.5–3°C warming over the coming decades and centuries, and we continue to pump out over 30 billion tons of carbon dioxide [into the atmosphere] every year.

The 'let's not do anything' RCP8.5 model (what I shall call the GOP/GWPF CO2 is plant food model) is particularly terrifying.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 12:02 pm

Andy Murray:

What is it about commentators on tennis and their inability to remember that women play the sport too? They did the exact same thing when Murray won Wimbledon (by calling him the first Briton to win at Wimbledon since Fred Perry, thus insulting Virginia Wade, Jeremy Bates, Jo Durie and, ironically, Murray's own brother who'd won a few years prior to him in the mixed doubles).

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 12:07 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 12:52 pm

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danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 1:03 pm

Good afternoon all.
Very sad news about former footballer Dalian Atkinson dying after being tasered by police in Telford today

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 1:04 pm

danesclose wrote:Good afternoon all.
Very sad news about former footballer Dalian Atkinson dying after being tasered by police in Telford today

Yes, fairly shocking.

Of course, he was the person of whom Karren Brady once (in)famously asked - "is he related to Ron"?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 1:08 pm

Margaret Beckett is relieved that no one is joining Labour because they are fans of Owen Smith. Or something.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 1:11 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
danesclose wrote:Good afternoon all.
Very sad news about former footballer Dalian Atkinson dying after being tasered by police in Telford today
Yes, fairly shocking.

Of course, he was the person of whom Karren Brady once (in)famously asked - "is he related to Ron"?

Indeed, when she was Chair of Birmingham City FC, when they were run by the porn merchants who now run West Ham
For any non-football fans on here, this shows why Lady Brady's comments were so asinine.

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TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 1:17 pm

This fan club thing. Nothing new, move along.

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ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 1:26 pm

Re. John Invalid Inverdale - he's an eejit.

I cannot understand why he still has a job. He was OK as the anchor for rugby, but he's hopeless at everything else.

He was doing the rowing commentary with Sir Steve Redgrave and when Mahe Drysdale won the sculls he was butting in to the point that Sir Steve had to tell him that the usual form is to allow the winners' national media in first. He speaks as though h knows what he's on about, but the gaps in his knowledge are massive. He was dreadful at Wimbledon as well.

Claire Balding is completely different - when she was doing the swimming in London 2012 and this time on the cycling, she is very honest about what she does and doesn't know, asks the right questions, and leaves it to her experts to explain things. It makes for a much more interesting and illuminating commentary. She's a national treasure.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:02 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning All

Apparently, Margaret Beckett is trending

I understand that she said on Today 'We've had examples of people joining because of Jeremy..those arent members of Labour but members of a fan club'

This will be going down great in her own constituency, which nominated, yes, Corbyn

[I don't know how I misspelt nominated in my first effort but it autocorrected to nematode!]

Morning!
So nobody joined "because of Blair" during Labour's previous membership surge?

And why is it only people like me on social media who ask questions like this, not our brilliantly objective and insightful BBC journalists??

Corbyn has taken unprecedented action by not standing down upon receiving a huge lack of confidence motion from his
Parliamentary team. Corbyn declines to listen to his colleagues instead calls out, "I have a mandate from the people!"
declaring a hundred thousand some odd votes from Labour party members, supporters and affiliates legitimises his right to rule.

It's Corbyn having made this here a personality party. His support likened to a 'fan club' is therefore unsurprising.

Effectively administering two-hundred and thirty Members of Parliament forming HM Opposition requires skill and experience and
those led must have confidence in their leader. Corbyn needs more than a better PR team helping him effectively lead Labour MPs
if/when he wins a leadership challenge.

How many individual votes total has Corbyn received from constituency labour parties, please? It sounds a lot more wonderful divvying
up 650 constituency Labour parties from all over the UK between two men, using those numbers and percentages though, right?
Lobby the polling agencies currently polling Labour and Labour's leader in the sh**. Ask them to post the CLP's turnouts instead.

What in the hell does Corbyn think he's doing? How in the world is his game going to help Labour, people or the country?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:08 pm

The PLP don't have the power to make the rest of the Labour MOVEMENT (ie members and unions) do their bidding unquestioningly.

Both of those groups did not, overall, agree with Corbyn being made to step down. There is now, as is proper, a leadership contest to try and resolve things.

I will be voting for Smith. But whatever the result, people need to accept that things cannot continue as has been the case recently.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:10 pm

citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning All

Apparently, Margaret Beckett is trending

I understand that she said on Today 'We've had examples of people joining because of Jeremy..those arent members of Labour but members of a fan club'

This will be going down great in her own constituency, which nominated, yes, Corbyn

[I don't know how I misspelt nominated in my first effort but it autocorrected to nematode!]

Morning!
So nobody joined "because of Blair" during Labour's previous membership surge?

And why is it only people like me on social media who ask questions like this, not our brilliantly objective and insightful BBC journalists??
Corbyn has taken unprecedented action by not standing down upon receiving a huge lack of confidence motion from his
Parliamentary team. Corbyn declines to listen to his colleagues instead calls out, "I have a mandate from the people!"
declaring a hundred thousand some odd votes from Labour party members, supporters and affiliates legitimises his right to rule.

It's Corbyn having made this here a personality party. His support likened to a 'fan club' is therefore unsurprising.

Effectively administering two-hundred and thirty Members of Parliament forming HM Opposition requires skill and experience and
those led must have confidence in their leader. Corbyn needs more than a better PR team helping him effectively lead Labour MPs
if/when he wins a leadership challenge.

How many individual votes total has Corbyn received from constituency labour parties, please? It sounds a lot more wonderful divvying
up 650 constituency Labour parties from all over the UK between two men, using those numbers and percentages though, right?
Lobby the polling agencies currently polling Labour and Labour's leader in the sh**. Ask them to post the CLP's turnouts instead.

What in the hell does Corbyn think he's doing? How in the world is his game going to help Labour, people or the country?

As I understand it, the members choose the leader and the PLP has no veto cja. JC has the mandate and the PLP should support him. Have I got anything wrong?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:22 pm

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ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:26 pm

frightful_oik wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: So nobody joined "because of Blair" during Labour's previous membership surge?

And why is it only people like me on social media who ask questions like this, not our brilliantly objective and insightful BBC journalists??
Corbyn has taken unprecedented action by not standing down upon receiving a huge lack of confidence motion from his
Parliamentary team. Corbyn declines to listen to his colleagues instead calls out, "I have a mandate from the people!"
declaring a hundred thousand some odd votes from Labour party members, supporters and affiliates legitimises his right to rule.

It's Corbyn having made this here a personality party. His support likened to a 'fan club' is therefore unsurprising.

Effectively administering two-hundred and thirty Members of Parliament forming HM Opposition requires skill and experience and
those led must have confidence in their leader. Corbyn needs more than a better PR team helping him effectively lead Labour MPs
if/when he wins a leadership challenge.

How many individual votes total has Corbyn received from constituency labour parties, please? It sounds a lot more wonderful divvying
up 650 constituency Labour parties from all over the UK between two men, using those numbers and percentages though, right?
Lobby the polling agencies currently polling Labour and Labour's leader in the sh**. Ask them to post the CLP's turnouts instead.

What in the hell does Corbyn think he's doing? How in the world is his game going to help Labour, people or the country?
As I understand it, the members choose the leader and the PLP has no veto cja. JC has the mandate and the PLP should support him. Have I got anything wrong?

What I find totally ironic is, when Watson has been interviewed he says he was voted in as Deputy on a Mandate.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:28 pm

frightful_oik wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: So nobody joined "because of Blair" during Labour's previous membership surge?

And why is it only people like me on social media who ask questions like this, not our brilliantly objective and insightful BBC journalists??
Corbyn has taken unprecedented action by not standing down upon receiving a huge lack of confidence motion from his
Parliamentary team. Corbyn declines to listen to his colleagues instead calls out, "I have a mandate from the people!"
declaring a hundred thousand some odd votes from Labour party members, supporters and affiliates legitimises his right to rule.

It's Corbyn having made this here a personality party. His support likened to a 'fan club' is therefore unsurprising.

Effectively administering two-hundred and thirty Members of Parliament forming HM Opposition requires skill and experience and
those led must have confidence in their leader. Corbyn needs more than a better PR team helping him effectively lead Labour MPs
if/when he wins a leadership challenge.

How many individual votes total has Corbyn received from constituency labour parties, please? It sounds a lot more wonderful divvying
up 650 constituency Labour parties from all over the UK between two men, using those numbers and percentages though, right?
Lobby the polling agencies currently polling Labour and Labour's leader in the sh**. Ask them to post the CLP's turnouts instead.

What in the hell does Corbyn think he's doing? How in the world is his game going to help Labour, people or the country?
As I understand it, the members choose the leader and the PLP has no veto cja. JC has the mandate and the PLP should support him. Have I got anything wrong?

I don't think you have got anything wrong, Oik.

There is a vote, under the rules that obtain at the time.
Ed Miliband got more votes than his brother, under the rules at the time.
Corbyn got more votes than the other three who stood last time, under the rules at the time.

The job of any MP is to represent their constituents and the party they belong to.
Part of that is to work with the leader of their party, however he/she is elected.
It's not the job of MPs to decide they won't do what they have been elected to do.

I think it is wrong to blame Corbyn for this - and I am not blind to his weaknesses.
He was elected, he is the leader, and the PLP should have supported him.

If Corbyn wins again, does anyone here think that the PLP will support him this time?
If Smith wins, does anyone here really think it's likely that the factionalism will stop?

Labour should split. Formally, that is - it's already in bits as it is.

Meanwhile, the Tories are getting away - literally - with murder.
They just prefer to call it "welfare reform" and "NHS reorganisation".

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:36 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote: But whatever the result, people need to accept that things cannot continue as has been the case recently.

I think you mean 'should not'.

In fact things will now be considerably worse than in the months after JC's last election. Now all the goodwill in the PLP is gone and it will be open warfare.

"Moderates/Evil Blairites" in marginals will split, unless Smith is sufficiently close to indicate that a challenge next year might succeed.

Everybody rallying round is never going to happen now, so why suggest that it will?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:41 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: But whatever the result, people need to accept that things cannot continue as has been the case recently.
I think you mean 'should not'.

In fact things will now be considerably worse than in the months after JC's last election. Now all the goodwill in the PLP is gone and it will be open warfare.

"Moderates/Evil Blairites" in marginals will split, unless Smith is sufficiently close to indicate that a challenge next year might succeed.

Everybody rallying round is never going to happen now, so why suggest that it will?

Repeat until he's removed. Sod the membership, they know nothing.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:48 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: But whatever the result, people need to accept that things cannot continue as has been the case recently.
I think you mean 'should not'.

In fact things will now be considerably worse than in the months after JC's last election. Now all the goodwill in the PLP is gone and it will be open warfare.

"Moderates/Evil Blairites" in marginals will split, unless Smith is sufficiently close to indicate that a challenge next year might succeed.

Everybody rallying round is never going to happen now, so why suggest that it will?
Repeat until he's removed. Sod the membership, they know nothing.

Then come the next election they'll be expecting the same membership, whom they hold in complete contempt, to spend money many can ill afford, and time getting them re-elected.

Edited to add: To paraphrase Jim Royle "Democrats? My arse"

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:57 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: But whatever the result, people need to accept that things cannot continue as has been the case recently.
I think you mean 'should not'.

In fact things will now be considerably worse than in the months after JC's last election. Now all the goodwill in the PLP is gone and it will be open warfare.

"Moderates/Evil Blairites" in marginals will split, unless Smith is sufficiently close to indicate that a challenge next year might succeed.

Everybody rallying round is never going to happen now, so why suggest that it will?
Repeat until he's removed. Sod the membership, they know nothing.

Well, I of course agree with Ed Miliband and not the majority of members, but my claim was about what *will* happen, not what *ought* to happen (which are quite different things).

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 2:59 pm

I like to hike and walk well enough but there's no Olympic category for that.
I'm not one to watch or read about sport anyway.
May I get anyone a beverage?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:08 pm

citizenJA wrote:I like to hike and walk well enough but there's no Olympic category for that.
I'm not one to watch or read about sport anyway.
May I get anyone a beverage?

There's the 50km walk (or long distance mince as my non-PC friend refers to it). That's on in a couple of days.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:10 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: I think you mean 'should not'.

In fact things will now be considerably worse than in the months after JC's last election. Now all the goodwill in the PLP is gone and it will be open warfare.

"Moderates/Evil Blairites" in marginals will split, unless Smith is sufficiently close to indicate that a challenge next year might succeed.

Everybody rallying round is never going to happen now, so why suggest that it will?
Repeat until he's removed. Sod the membership, they know nothing.
Well, I of course agree with Ed Miliband and not the majority of members, but my claim was about what *will* happen, not what *ought* to happen (which are quite different things).

Ah, my bad. I'm so used to your high levels of self confidence that when I see you say will, it scans as ought. It's the lack of humble opinion I guess. IMHO.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:12 pm

The PLP needs to come more into line with the unions and membership, it really is as simple as that.

I happen to think this can be achieved without many deselections, but that option should remain open (anybody who seriously denies this is saying that once elected as a Labour MP you have the right to do whatever you like without let or hindrance forever - do *you* believe this absurdity, SH?)

I do not believe there will be any significant split. The economic, social, political, electoral and demographic realities that once underpinned Blairism have pretty much collapsed. Of course that doesn't matter to those who imagine that favourable coverage by lobby journalists is the be all and end all

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:18 pm

danesclose wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: I think you mean 'should not'.

In fact things will now be considerably worse than in the months after JC's last election. Now all the goodwill in the PLP is gone and it will be open warfare.

"Moderates/Evil Blairites" in marginals will split, unless Smith is sufficiently close to indicate that a challenge next year might succeed.

Everybody rallying round is never going to happen now, so why suggest that it will?
Repeat until he's removed. Sod the membership, they know nothing.
Then come the next election they'll be expecting the same membership, whom they hold in complete contempt, to spend money many can ill afford, and time getting them re-elected.

Edited to add: To paraphrase Jim Royle "Democrats? My arse"

Not from me they won't.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:35 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The PLP needs to come more into line with the unions and membership, it really is as simple as that.

If that is a claim about what ought to happen, fair enough. It won't as long as JC is leader. The idea that there will be *more* unity than in the months after the last victory is wholly implausible.

AnatolyKasparov wrote: I happen to think this can be achieved without many deselections, but that option should remain open (anybody who seriously denies this is saying that once elected as a Labour MP you have the right to do whatever you like without let or hindrance forever - do *you* believe this absurdity, SH?)

Fair enough, but if you are one of those who will be deselected and/or lose your seat, why not split? What have you got to lose?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:36 pm

Sports Direct Workers To Get Back Pay For Minimum Wage Violations
Owner Mike Ashley could be fined up to £2 million for breaking the law on top of the £1 million Sports Direct will hand over to warehouse staff who earned less than minimum wage for years.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/simonneville/s ... .qmKQEJWEq

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:38 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The PLP needs to come more into line with the unions and membership, it really is as simple as that.
If that is a claim about what ought to happen, fair enough. It won't as long as JC is leader. The idea that there will be *more* unity than in the months after the last victory is wholly implausible.

AnatolyKasparov wrote: I happen to think this can be achieved without many deselections, but that option should remain open (anybody who seriously denies this is saying that once elected as a Labour MP you have the right to do whatever you like without let or hindrance forever - do *you* believe this absurdity, SH?)
Fair enough, but if you are one of those who will be deselected and/or lose your seat, why not split? What have you got to lose?

Being on the gravy train?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:42 pm

citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning All

Apparently, Margaret Beckett is trending

I understand that she said on Today 'We've had examples of people joining because of Jeremy..those arent members of Labour but members of a fan club'

This will be going down great in her own constituency, which nominated, yes, Corbyn

[I don't know how I misspelt nominated in my first effort but it autocorrected to nematode!]

Morning!
So nobody joined "because of Blair" during Labour's previous membership surge?

And why is it only people like me on social media who ask questions like this, not our brilliantly objective and insightful BBC journalists??
Corbyn has taken unprecedented action by not standing down upon receiving a huge lack of confidence motion from his
Parliamentary team. Corbyn declines to listen to his colleagues instead calls out, "I have a mandate from the people!"
declaring a hundred thousand some odd votes from Labour party members, supporters and affiliates legitimises his right to rule.

It's Corbyn having made this here a personality party. His support likened to a 'fan club' is therefore unsurprising.

Effectively administering two-hundred and thirty Members of Parliament forming HM Opposition requires skill and experience and
those led must have confidence in their leader. Corbyn needs more than a better PR team helping him effectively lead Labour MPs
if/when he wins a leadership challenge.

How many individual votes total has Corbyn received from constituency labour parties, please? It sounds a lot more wonderful divvying
up 650 constituency Labour parties from all over the UK between two men, using those numbers and percentages though, right?
Lobby the polling agencies currently polling Labour and Labour's leader in the sh**. Ask them to post the CLP's turnouts instead.

What in the hell does Corbyn think he's doing? How in the world is his game going to help Labour, people or the country?

It's all Jeremy Corbyn's fault(TM).

pala · Post by **pala** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:49 pm

Since people are posting Labour leadership stuff here this is from the Corbyn thread:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/com ... -all-false

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 3:51 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:It's all Jeremy Corbyn's fault(TM).

Not all Corbyn's fault, no.
May I mix you a shandy?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 4:26 pm

"The economic, social, political, electoral and demographic realities that once underpinned Blairism have pretty much collapsed."

As I think to win Labour needs to persuade some people who voted Tory last time to vote for it, I doubt that is true.

What was fatal for Blairism was Iraq.