Tuesday 16th August 2016

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 12:26 pm

And as TinkerBell rings her little bell: Page 2:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... oing-polls

How is Jeremy Corbyn really doing in the polls?
Opposing sides are clashing over the Labour leader’s place in the polls. So here’s what the polling actually shows us.

(Edited: oops, radio must have drowned out TinkerBell)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 12:39 pm

tinybgoat wrote:And as TinkerBell rings her little bell: Page 2:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... oing-polls

How is Jeremy Corbyn really doing in the polls?
Opposing sides are clashing over the Labour leader’s place in the polls. So here’s what the polling actually shows us.
(Edited: oops, radio must have drowned out TinkerBell)

I heard her . . .

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 12:44 pm

Deleted by historical revisionism Act of 2021

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 12:44 pm

I'd be surprised if that direct quote from Bragg was made up by the Times. Has he claimed that? they're directly quoting what he said at the Edinburgh book festival aren't they? he says it is 'out of context', but I wonder what more context there could be?

I am not sure that reporting what people have said in public constitutes a Murdoch stitch up.

prices rising because of Brexit

http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/08/16/alc ... exit-vote/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 12:54 pm

tinybgoat wrote:And as TinkerBell rings her little bell: Page 2:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... oing-polls

How is Jeremy Corbyn really doing in the polls?
Opposing sides are clashing over the Labour leader’s place in the polls. So here’s what the polling actually shows us.
(Edited: oops, radio must have drowned out TinkerBell)

From the article:

Anyone seeking to honestly describe the state of the parties cannot reasonably just pick one of those outlying polls and claim it reflects the actual picture, ignoring the wider average. The only reasonable way of judging support is to take an average across many polls.

It may be reasonable but it very much assumes that all polls are equal. They are self-evidently not. As with the polls themselves, the average of the polls would necessarily need to be weighted to ensure that the ones that are most wildly wrong are down-weighted, and those most often right are up-weighted.

Given you can't reasonably determine which is which, all you can do is average them. Which gives you the wrong answer.

PS. The article completely airbrushes out the impact of the splintering of the electoral system away from the previous 3 party state to a 7/8 party one, particularly at the local level. What was true back in 1982, 1992, etc, is no longer true since 2010. You've got a step change in the way people pick who to vote for so many of his comparisons are completely bogus.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 12:56 pm

adam wrote:
yahyah wrote:This isn't a parody.
It doesn't help the 'Trot' accusations now, even though it was nearly 30 years ago.
The Telegraph make the link of course.

But that was the sort of discussion/obsession that went on in some left wing circles at that time, so not surprising if it was discussed at meetings of the SWP etc. but in Parliament ?

Just a shame the motion didn't emphasise those murdered by the Soviet regime as the main point, rather than at the end.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... n-trotsky/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edited to add: Dawn Primarolo is on the parliamentary archive list, didn't realise she was an MP that long ago.
At a time of just the beginnings of change [edited to add - in the soviet union) and a hope of a toning down of the cold war, a group of Labour MPs ask the Soviet Union to face their past and be more open about their history. Ronald Reagan could have signed that EDM with a clear conscience.

Thanks for the historical context Adam. Not everyone will take such a generous view.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:00 pm

ephemerid wrote:
yahyah wrote:
That's not a huge surprise - though the language is a bit hyperbolic ("momentous"!!!!!)

The CLP nominations in Scotland generally are supportive of Smith, according to the @CLPNominations
maps.

I read that as a sort of pun based on Momentum, and all the talk of Corbyn's campaigning gaining momentum. Maybe someone with a sense of humour wrote it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:05 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning.

I see a parody account pretending to be from the Blairites was linked last night.
Can we link Trumpton Momentum's twitter account then ? At least that is funny.
You're right. The quotes lifted from Blair et al were not remotely funny.

Now now Jonny.

What I meant is that Trumpton Momentum is properly funny. Some corkers here

https://twitter.com/momentumtrumpt1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure Trotsky would have been happy about stuff like that being allowed.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:08 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:I'd be surprised if that direct quote from Bragg was made up by the Times. Has he claimed that? they're directly quoting what he said at the Edinburgh book festival aren't they? he says it is 'out of context', but I wonder what more context there could be?

I am not sure that reporting what people have said in public constitutes a Murdoch stitch up.

prices rising because of Brexit

http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/08/16/alc ... exit-vote/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course it is possible to say such a thing in a rather different context overall.

Cherry picking selected quotes out of context is, and has long been, what many of us so detest about media coverage (and not just regarding politics)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:12 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Land of milk and honey... The chart in this tweet shows the impact on producer price inflation that the devaluation of the pound has caused. It's not looking promising. But, but, but... better for exports.

Edit: left out the 'producer price inflation' bit by mistake.

Oil prices have risen again too, CNN said there was a likelihood of a cut in production too.
Heating oil is heading back up in price.
That'll have an effect on consumers and business too.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:14 pm

yahyah wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
yahyah wrote:
That's not a huge surprise - though the language is a bit hyperbolic ("momentous"!!!!!)

The CLP nominations in Scotland generally are supportive of Smith, according to the @CLPNominations
maps.

I read that as a sort of pun based on Momentum, and all the talk of Corbyn's campaigning gaining momentum. Maybe someone with a sense of humour wrote it.

I thought that was what Kinnock was getting at in this sentence from his article in yesterday's Graun

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... byn-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot01530.jpg (51.04 KiB) Viewed 9012 times

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:15 pm

Billy 'The Tory Lib Dem coalition might be more progressive than Labour' Bragg ?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:18 pm

Would be interested in a citation for that, not another cherry picked quote is it?

(though it is undoubtedly true that some people who should have known better said some rather silly things around that time)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:21 pm

@ re Perth & Kinross...

better late than never Anatoly. June went by in a blur of heavy rain.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:24 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Would be interested in a citation for that, not another cherry picked quote is it?

(though it is undoubtedly true that some people who should have known better said some rather silly things around that time)

I have been trying to find it. It used to come up easily on a search but now seems be be way down on the results six years later.

He did say it, several days after the 2010 election.
I saw the direct quote. Bragg voted Lib Dem in his Dorset constituency.
I linked it on the Guardian many times and many moons ago.
Maybe I can find it via that.

I may be going doolally, but certain things stick, and that is one of them.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:34 pm

"OH YES HE DID!!!!"

"OH NO HE DIDN'T!!!!"

Whatever. Bragg says what the Times has written is b/s.
Bragg has had whole moments when he has been a total plonker.
People can spin (see what I did there?) as much as they like.
It's a Murdoch paper, and I do not expect the truth to emerge from it.

Meanwhile, this is going on -
http://www.welfareweekly.com/hundreds-d ... e-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:35 pm

and he voted Lib Dem in 2010 because they had the best manifesto, not just a tactical anti-Tory vote.
Had a bit of a Cleggy crush too according to some.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/electio ... crats.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:36 pm

Oh, as I said I can believe it given the general climate back then. It will be a long time before many "left progressives" say such things again, though!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:44 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/t ... 682310.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My memory was only slightly off, six years later. I plead old age.

In his rush to defend his crush on Clegg he tried to stem criticism about the Libs joining the Tories, and defend his position he says

''what are we going to do if it turns out the coalition are more progressive than New Labour on some issues'

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:46 pm

Sorry Ephie. I'm out into the garden so will read your link later.
And no more B.... Br..... I promise.

Thanks to OhSo for her apologies on posting the spoof account.
It is easily done when doing other things at the same time.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 1:52 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
adam wrote:
PorFavor wrote: What does this mean, please? I looked it up but could only find this:

nec tu aliud quam de exitu (Latin)

Neither do other than going (English)

and I don't even understand the English bit!
'Et tu...' means 'even you'. I think that 'Nec tu...' means 'Not even you'. That's what I was going for.
And here's me thinking it was somehow a play on NEC.

It's from Pliny this is the best translation I can find.

21 Interim Miseni ego et mater—sed nihil ad historiam, nec tu aliud quam de exitu eius scire voluisti. Finem ergo faciam.

21 Meanwhile at Miseum I and my mother — but this has naught to do with history, nor did you want to know anything except about his [Elder Pliny’s] death. So I shall make an end.

exitu is death in this sense; a bit like us saying passed, I think.

I should emphasise I failed my Latin and was kicked out of the class for emulating Jennings and Derbyshire by writing 'Latin is a language as dead as dead can be, it killed the ancient romans and now it's killing me!' on my textbook.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 2:09 pm

I enjoyed the hustings. I'll put a fuller report in the JC thread later. I was impressed though.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 2:53 pm

I see we have a new Forum rule. You can discuss the Labour leadership election, as long as you do so in Latin

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 2:56 pm

Temulkar wrote:'Latin is a language as dead as dead can be, it killed the ancient romans and now it's killing me!'

"And all that can be said is the words as they are read, because no bugger knows what sound they should actually be."

All my knowledge of Latin stems from the Linnaean binomial system. So I'm even less informed than you are.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:04 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I see we have a new Forum rule. You can discuss the Labour leadership election, as long as you do so in Latin

Odi et amo. quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.

I hate and I love. Why do this, perhaps you ask?
I know not, but I feel it and I am in torture.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:17 pm

This may well have been traditional and adapted to fit a whole range of Latin teachers, but here's the version that was current in my school (although I didn't take Latin) -

Norribus sitibus on the deskalorum
Deskibus collapsicus
Norri on the florum.

Very mature and sophisticated, eh? Made us laugh at the time, though, in a rather cruel fashion.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:19 pm

Derby today

: Cp-3g_JWcAAzywh.jpg (64.13 KiB) Viewed 8860 times

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:24 pm

Jesse Philips on Radio 4 this lunchtime.
She said she had locksmiths in and was having her house adapted for safety.

I could swear some weeks ago I read she had the locksmiths in and had posted an image on Twitter.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:27 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Jesse Philips on Radio 4 this lunchtime.
She said she had locksmiths in and was having her house adapted for safety.

I could swear some weeks ago I read she had the locksmiths in and had posted an image on Twitter.

Yes, I remember reading something to that effect, too.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:28 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I see we have a new Forum rule. You can discuss the Labour leadership election, as long as you do so in Latin

I think I should change my username to Naughtinus Maximus

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:31 pm

Labour & Liverpool: comradely debate at our live public meeting

http://www.theguardian.com/membership/2 ... ic-meeting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Wallasey tale doesn’t ring true with the Echo piece on the meeting but there you go.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:32 pm

Temulkar wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I see we have a new Forum rule. You can discuss the Labour leadership election, as long as you do so in Latin
Odi et amo. quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.

I hate and I love. Why do this, perhaps you ask?
I know not, but I feel it and I am in torture.

Catullus. Very good. Take an A, Tem.

I like Ovid. He's very raunchy.

Amo, Amas, Am at it again......

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:35 pm

Women referee at the Olympic boxing tournament. Mr Ohso said she's very good.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:35 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Jesse Philips on Radio 4 this lunchtime.
She said she had locksmiths in and was having her house adapted for safety.

I could swear some weeks ago I read she had the locksmiths in and had posted an image on Twitter.

She also said on WATO today that she has a panic room built in to her office (I expect that's where her hubby keeps the teabags) and that if Corbyn wins she might not stay as she won't stay where she's not welcome.

Good plan, Jess. You can go and be incredibly important somewhere else. The Mail, maybe. I think Simon might be busy elsewhere.....

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:39 pm

Ow, ow. I forgot. Sure I heard also today on Radio 4 that Simon had been arrested in Spain on a complaint by his ex wife?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:41 pm

ephemerid wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Jesse Philips on Radio 4 this lunchtime.
She said she had locksmiths in and was having her house adapted for safety.

I could swear some weeks ago I read she had the locksmiths in and had posted an image on Twitter.

She also said on WATO today that she has a panic room built in to her office (I expect that's where her hubby keeps the teabags) and that if Corbyn wins she might not stay as she won't stay where she's not welcome.

Good plan, Jess. You can go and be incredibly important somewhere else. The Mail, maybe. I think Simon might be busy elsewhere.....

So far as I'm concerned, she's not welcome whoever wins\loses.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:43 pm

When it comes to independent MPs, what is the usual deal regarding House of Commons resources, their "constituency office" etc?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:49 pm

StephenDolan wrote:When it comes to independent MPs, what is the usual deal regarding House of Commons resources, their "constituency office" etc?

I think they get to complain about them just as much as before.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:54 pm

: Cp_Jo_cWYAE8oy2.png (44.56 KiB) Viewed 8794 times

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 3:58 pm

PorFavor wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Jesse Philips on Radio 4 this lunchtime.
She said she had locksmiths in and was having her house adapted for safety.

I could swear some weeks ago I read she had the locksmiths in and had posted an image on Twitter.

She also said on WATO today that she has a panic room built in to her office (I expect that's where her hubby keeps the teabags) and that if Corbyn wins she might not stay as she won't stay where she's not welcome.

Good plan, Jess. You can go and be incredibly important somewhere else. The Mail, maybe. I think Simon might be busy elsewhere.....
So far as I'm concerned, she's not welcome whoever wins\loses.

I didn't hear her name announced so at first was just listening to a woman MP. My chin dropped lower and lower at the half truths and exaggerations and then as she said about the online abuse she gets, I twigged who it was.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 4:01 pm

Posted my report

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 4:06 pm

frightful_oik wrote:Posted my report

Read your report - thank you.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 4:13 pm

Ex Lib Dem peer one of the biggest donors to new anti-Corbyn Labour campaign
New anti-Corbyn Labour centrist organisation 'Labour Tomorrow' set up by David Blunkett is being bankrolled by one of the party's biggest donors

An ex-Liberal Democrat peer, a hedge fund manager and a multimillionaire human rights charity patron are all among the donors to “Labour Tomorrow”, a new ‘centre-left’ organisation of which the Blairite peer David Blunkett is a director, it can be revealed.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 93556.html

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 4:20 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Ex Lib Dem peer one of the biggest donors to new anti-Corbyn Labour campaign
New anti-Corbyn Labour centrist organisation 'Labour Tomorrow' set up by David Blunkett is being bankrolled by one of the party's biggest donors

An ex-Liberal Democrat peer, a hedge fund manager and a multimillionaire human rights charity patron are all among the donors to “Labour Tomorrow”, a new ‘centre-left’ organisation of which the Blairite peer David Blunkett is a director, it can be revealed.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 93556.html

Well you've sold it to me. David Blunkett - what a guy!

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 4:32 pm

For Members: you can't have been members of other parties before joining Momentum. That's entryism.
For the PLP: you can be an actual peer from another party and we'll let you bankroll our organisation. That's 'centre-left' moderate politics.

They really are completely clueless about how this seems to normal people, aren't they.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 4:38 pm

yahyah wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/t ... 682310.stm

My memory was only slightly off, six years later. I plead old age.

In his rush to defend his crush on Clegg he tried to stem criticism about the Libs joining the Tories, and defend his position he says

''what are we going to do if it turns out the coalition are more progressive than New Labour on some issues'

Worst thing about that, other than it being Billy Bragg, is that the coalition was actually more progressive than New Labour on some issues. Which, now I'm reminded of it, depresses me more than the likelihood that I'll never be voting for Labour again (unless something really radical happens between now and my soft-shoe shuffle into oblivion).

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 4:45 pm

I've looked, but can't find a Latin equivalent of flounced:

Veni, Vidi, Verti, Cessi

Sounds good, but it's just turning away & leaving
not proper flouncing.
I don't see how proper political discussions can be had without it, so have to object to the new rule.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 4:51 pm

We could try Russian, in keeping with the hard left Trotskyism that is rife, rife I tell you, at this moment in time. That or far-right, Third Reich era Deutsch.

Signed, A Nazi Stormtrooping Trot. (Having apparently changed my name from A Moderate by leadership poll last September).

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 5:03 pm

Good article about Sadiq Khan's first 100 days as Mayor.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... -mayoralty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Two interesting bits about the team around him.

When Johnson and Khan spoke following his election, the former advised him to avoid rushing his appointments (five senior figures either resigned or were fired during Johnson’s first year). It was a lesson that the new mayor heeded, patiently assembling his team over several weeks.

and

At directorate level, Khan retained the trusted group that won him the mayoralty: Patrick Hennessy (communications), David Bellamy (chief of staff), Jack Stenner (political strategy), Nick Bowes (policy) and Leah Kreitzman (external affairs and international relations). Insiders speak of how their familiarity and loyalty mark a break with the days of Johnson when advisers were played off against each other.

That's what leadership looks like...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 5:06 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
At directorate level, Khan retained the trusted group that won him the mayoralty: Patrick Hennessy (communications), David Bellamy (chief of staff), Jack Stenner (political strategy), Nick Bowes (policy) and Leah Kreitzman (external affairs and international relations). Insiders speak of how their familiarity and loyalty mark a break with the days of Johnson when advisers were played off against each other.
That's what leadership looks like...

A bearded man in shorts saying, "Bootiful"?

[sorry in advance]