Tuesday 16th August 2016

Post by **refitman** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 8:11 am

Morning.

I see a parody account pretending to be from the Blairites was linked last night.
Can we link Trumpton Momentum's twitter account then ?

At least that is funny.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 8:19 am

Morning Ephie. Hope you've got the sun that far east. Two sunny mornings in a row here...summer may have arrived.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 8:20 am

et tu Billy

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/corby ... -trhv6tqvj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 8:21 am

Yahyah - the person behind the "Labour Tomorrow" parody account has 'fessed up that he/she was having a bit of fun - all the Tweets are direct quotes from real Blairites and SPADs.
The actual organisation "Labour Tomorrow" is real, though - and real Blairites are behind it as the company is registered in their names.

Just for balance, like, here's some more "entryism" - medium.com/@georgeturner/blairite-entryism-251dfce4f128#.844t4udl7 - in which Lambeth councillors wrote to local residents asking them to become Labour supporters to vote for Smith.

You are absolutely right to say that things are already bitter and divided. I think it's a bit too late to do much about it now - people have become very entrenched in their positions, and nowhere is that more obvious than right at the top. Which is where it all began.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 8:23 am

yahyah wrote:Morning Ephie. Hope you've got the sun that far east. Two sunny mornings in a row here...summer may have arrived.

Yes - it's just lovely!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 8:42 am

This isn't a parody.
It doesn't help the 'Trot' accusations now, even though it was nearly 30 years ago.
The Telegraph make the link of course.

But that was the sort of discussion/obsession that went on in some left wing circles at that time, so not surprising if it was discussed at meetings of the SWP etc. but in Parliament ?

Just a shame the motion didn't emphasise those murdered by the Soviet regime as the main point, rather than at the end.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... n-trotsky/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edited to add: Dawn Primarolo is on the parliamentary archive list, didn't realise she was an MP that long ago.

Post by **adam** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:00 am

yahyah wrote: edited to add: Dawn Primarolo is on the parliamentary archive list, didn't realise she was an MP that long ago.

She was one of three Labour MPs south of the line from The Wash to the Bristol Channel and outside London who survived the 1987 election - her in Bristol South, Andrew Smith in Oxford East and John Garrett in Norwich South. (Typed quickly before Anatoly gets in).

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:01 am

The 'Rehabilitate Trotsky' EDM was mentioned in Iain Watson's book Five Million Conversations.
He's a BBC political correspondent. It was published March 2016, so it is surprising that only now has the EDM photocopy appeared.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:02 am

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tment.html

Karen Danczuk was reportedly taken to hospital after a row with estranged Labour MP husband Simon while on holiday.
The politician is said to have ended up being taken away by police following the confrontation at an apartment in Alicante, Spain.
Karen, 33, is understood to have needed treatment for 'nasty' cuts to her chest while her husband is still thought to be in custody this morning.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:10 am

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:13 am

yahyah wrote:The 'Rehabilitate Trotsky' EDM was mentioned in Iain Watson's book Five Million Conversations.
He's a BBC political correspondent. It was published March 2016, so it is surprising that only now has the EDM photocopy appeared.

I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Leon. However . . . .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:14 am

Good morfternoon.

Post by **adam** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:15 am

yahyah wrote:This isn't a parody.
It doesn't help the 'Trot' accusations now, even though it was nearly 30 years ago.
The Telegraph make the link of course.

But that was the sort of discussion/obsession that went on in some left wing circles at that time, so not surprising if it was discussed at meetings of the SWP etc. but in Parliament ?

Just a shame the motion didn't emphasise those murdered by the Soviet regime as the main point, rather than at the end.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... n-trotsky/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edited to add: Dawn Primarolo is on the parliamentary archive list, didn't realise she was an MP that long ago.

At a time of just the beginnings of change [edited to add - in the soviet union) and a hope of a toning down of the cold war, a group of Labour MPs ask the Soviet Union to face their past and be more open about their history. Ronald Reagan could have signed that EDM with a clear conscience.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:37 am

Top UK firms paid five times more in dividends than into pensions

Half of FTSE 100 firms face combined pension deficit of £43bn, but paid out £53bn in dividends, report finds (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... o-pensions

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:39 am

Morning all.

Sunny day here at the moment. I'll hold onto that whilst another day of bickering within the party rumbles along.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:43 am

yahyah wrote:

That's not a huge surprise - though the language is a bit hyperbolic ("momentous"!!!!!)

The CLP nominations in Scotland generally are supportive of Smith, according to the @CLPNominations maps.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:58 am

I am getting increasingly irritated by MSM reporting of NHS failures.

Much of the reporting - including the BBC - states X target has not been met/whatever; and only later is it mentioned that this is in England only.

Over here in Wales, across the Ditch Of Death, things are actually improving (albeit slowly) but you would only know that if you look at local media because it is rarely reported elsewhere. Some MSM news outlets take great glee from reporting the areas where Wales gets it wrong, which as time goes on become fewer and fewer....

Meanwhile, the RCPCH (Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health) says that in England, 25% of senior trainee positions (registrar level) are unfilled and 50% of paediatric units are understaffed to unsafe levels.

Post by **adam** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 9:59 am

adam wrote:
yahyah wrote:This isn't a parody.
It doesn't help the 'Trot' accusations now, even though it was nearly 30 years ago.
The Telegraph make the link of course.

But that was the sort of discussion/obsession that went on in some left wing circles at that time, so not surprising if it was discussed at meetings of the SWP etc. but in Parliament ?

Just a shame the motion didn't emphasise those murdered by the Soviet regime as the main point, rather than at the end.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... n-trotsky/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edited to add: Dawn Primarolo is on the parliamentary archive list, didn't realise she was an MP that long ago.
At a time of just the beginnings of change [edited to add - in the soviet union) and a hope of a toning down of the cold war, a group of Labour MPs ask the Soviet Union to face their past and be more open about their history. Ronald Reagan could have signed that EDM with a clear conscience.

I hesitate to get involved in the bigger picture stuff here, but I would add that there is a good example buried in this of much that has gone wrong since last summer.

I think Corbyn won because after the election Labour's putative leadership listened to people like Ben Riley-Smith (have a look at some of his other recent stories here) and seemed to agree with them - yes, the telegraph and the mail and the express are telling us what's wrong with the Labour party and why we lost and we have to accept they have a point - and Labour's membership and potential membership shouted 'No'.

He isn't on that list but there is a bigger ghoul behind that - for all of the spite and hate from IDS to Thatcher the biggest piece of shit in British political and social life in the last half century is Murdoch and in many ways the key moment of the last parliament was Labour turning their back on him. There is a strong sense from Blairite Labour that it's this break that needs to be put right.

From the little I've seen of Smith he is better than that (although protesting about his record being used in argument against him, as he is doing here, is utterly ridiculous) , but being better than that doesn't matter when still, functionally the route back to Murdoch is the role he's playing.

Labour under Corbyn will never win a general election. Smith will lost this leadership contest

I have no idea where the answer lies. The majority of the PLP will refuse to serve in a shadow government at all and to some degree or another the party will remain in chaos.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:03 am

Billy Bragg on Twitter 3 minutes ago -

"Don't believe the b/s about me in the Times. I'm still supporting Corbyn, just want more talk about devo for England and fair votes for all".

Always a good idea to check sources when they come from Murdochia.

Post by **adam** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:04 am

ephemerid wrote:Billy Bragg on Twitter 3 minutes ago -

"Don't believe the b/s about me in the Times. I'm still supporting Corbyn, just want more talk about devo for England and fair votes for all".

Always a good idea to check sources when they come from Murdochia.

Nec tu, Billy.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:14 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

I see a parody account pretending to be from the Blairites was linked last night.
Can we link Trumpton Momentum's twitter account then ? At least that is funny.

You're right. The quotes lifted from Blair et al were not remotely funny.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:16 am

ephemerid wrote:Always a good idea to check sources ~~when they come from Murdochia~~.

Fwiw. Wish life made it easier to do so though.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:18 am

Just in time for the setting of rail fare rises, inflation is up. That's nice.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:21 am

Deleted

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:21 am

Morning all.

Talking of the NHS, I notice that they're getting a good kicking in the Mail and Telegraph who, by coincidence probably, just happen to use the same headline about there being a "dementia care lottery" on their front pages this morning.

Guardian has a slightly more balanced story and less SpAd-driven headline.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -across-uk

But some of these issues - aside from some like sufferers guaranteed an annual check at least which clearly is down to them - aren't actually under their control.

Similarly, while some areas have as many as 8,000 “dementia friends” available to help sufferers, others have none at all.

Look at the Dementia Friends website:

https://www.dementiafriends.org.uk/WEBFAQs#F-0041" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alzheimer’s Society received funding from the Department of Health and the Cabinet Office to launch and support Dementia Friends for the first two years. We are now exploring other possible sources of funding, including donations from Alzheimer’s Society supporters, to support Dementia Friends in the long term.

So nothing to do with the NHS then?

It's a great scheme but it's giving the NHS a kick for something outside their control.

And the less said about the "huge numbers are being forced to die in hospital, away from the comfort and security of home." the better - could be any number of reasons why that happens - maybe they simply can't go home as they wouldn't have the support?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:22 am

Land of milk and honey... The chart in this tweet shows the impact on producer price inflation that the devaluation of the pound has caused. It's not looking promising. But, but, but... better for exports.

Edit: left out the 'producer price inflation' bit by mistake.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:23 am

Deleted

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:26 am

From the Guardian article Roger linked to:

Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, said the data would “shine a spotlight” on the areas with the worst performance, and so drive improvements across the country

What would drive improvements you insufferable fool is more money for councils and the NHS so that they can afford to pay for better care rather than being forced to cut it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:28 am

Deleted deleted

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:33 am

From last night.

@jonnie

It's a parody account. Though they are claiming those tweets are from the likes of Blair, McTernan, etc.

Apologies.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:33 am

adam wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Billy Bragg on Twitter 3 minutes ago -

"Don't believe the b/s about me in the Times. I'm still supporting Corbyn, just want more talk about devo for England and fair votes for all".

Always a good idea to check sources when they come from Murdochia.
Nec tu, Billy.

What does this mean, please? I looked it up but could only find this:

nec tu aliud quam de exitu (Latin)

Neither do other than going (English)

and I don't even understand the English bit!

Post by **adam** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:41 am

PorFavor wrote:
adam wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Billy Bragg on Twitter 3 minutes ago -

"Don't believe the b/s about me in the Times. I'm still supporting Corbyn, just want more talk about devo for England and fair votes for all".

Always a good idea to check sources when they come from Murdochia.
Nec tu, Billy.
What does this mean, please? I looked it up but could only find this:

nec tu aliud quam de exitu (Latin)

Neither do other than going (English)

and I don't even understand the English bit!

'Et tu...' means 'even you'. I think that 'Nec tu...' means 'Not even you'. That's what I was going for.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:42 am

Repetition. Hesitation. Waffling. Deleting.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:44 am

adam wrote:'Et tu...' means 'even you'. I think that 'Nec tu...' means 'Not even you'. That's what I was going for.

N.B. For context, see Hugo's post earlier. I missed it on first pass through the board.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:44 am

@adam

Thank you! I'm familiar with "et tu" but the "nec" bit stumped me - although a bit more thought on my part might have helped.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:45 am

adam wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
adam wrote: Nec tu, Billy.
What does this mean, please? I looked it up but could only find this:

nec tu aliud quam de exitu (Latin)

Neither do other than going (English)

and I don't even understand the English bit!
'Et tu...' means 'even you'. I think that 'Nec tu...' means 'Not even you'. That's what I was going for.

And here's me thinking it was somehow a play on NEC.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:45 am

ohsocynical wrote:From last night.

@jonnie
It's a parody account. Though they are claiming those tweets are from the likes of Blair, McTernan, etc.
Apologies.

No need. It wasn't until after you mentioned them that they had fessed up.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:47 am

StephenDolan wrote:And here's me thinking it was somehow a play on NEC.

"Yeah, even them... The Red Tory bastards."

The line that got deleted by Shakespeare's editor during proofing.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:49 am

: 13876166_1439615506052188_1024765238705300315_n.jpg (56.96 KiB) Viewed 13146 times

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:51 am

Good-morning, everyone.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 10:51 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:From last night.

@jonnie
It's a parody account. Though they are claiming those tweets are from the likes of Blair, McTernan, etc.
Apologies.
No need. It wasn't until after you mentioned them that they had fessed up.

Note to self: Do not post links last thing at night while you have one eye on the Olympic cycling.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 11:01 am

Aditya ChakraborttyVerified account
‏@chakrabortty

Blairite entryism: Labour cllrs have been pleading with other parties to join Labour to vote Smith

https://medium.com/@georgenturner/blair ... .yta0ctqaq

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 11:09 am

adam wrote:
yahyah wrote: edited to add: Dawn Primarolo is on the parliamentary archive list, didn't realise she was an MP that long ago.
She was one of three Labour MPs south of the line from The Wash to the Bristol Channel and outside London who survived the 1987 election - her in Bristol South, Andrew Smith in Oxford East and John Garrett in Norwich South. (Typed quickly before Anatoly gets in).

She replaced Michael Cocks, one of the few MPs in the 1980s to actually get deselected (it was threatened rather more than it actually happened - I wonder if things would be similar now?) And nearly lost in 1987 because quite a few of his supporters voted SDP (and the press targeted her as a "loony leftie")

She put her Bennite days behind her in due course, needless to say.

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 11:15 am

Antidepressants changed my life, so don’t let the scare stories put you off http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ant ... 92291.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The stigma that is surrounding mental health is only made worse when they are linked – intentionally or not – to acts of barbarity.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 11:17 am

I'm at a Corbyn rally. Will report later.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 11:22 am

thatchersorphan wrote:Antidepressants changed my life, so don’t let the scare stories put you off http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ant ... 92291.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The stigma that is surrounding mental health is only made worse when they are linked – intentionally or not – to acts of barbarity.

They helped me too - and we are among millions.
People who are mentally unwell are much more likely to be a danger to themselves than others.

Lovely thing just happened - I am, after a night of wretched insomnia, ensconced on my bed with the windows wide open and a lovely breeze wafting through the windows.
A little tortoiseshell butterfly flew in, so I kept very still and watched it flutter around. It landed on my arm and sat there for a bit. I feel like I've been kissed by a butterfly.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 11:30 am

: Cp936oYXYAAL_FA.jpg (77.74 KiB) Viewed 13041 times

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 11:34 am

yahyah wrote:

Ahem, see my post in the Owen Smith thread

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Aug, 2016 12:09 pm

Further to Jonny1234's earlier post -

UK rail fares to rise by 1.9%

New ticket prices follow TUC research showing fare rises far outstripping wages prompting calls by commuter campaign groups to renationalise railways (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... rise-by-19

and another, related, article -

Rail fare increases prompt call for part-time season tickets

Campaigners call for urgent reforms to ease cost of travelling for part-time workers as TUC research shows ticket prices far outstripping pay rises (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... ticketing-