Wednesday 17th August 2016

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 7:04 am

Morning.

For those interested, televised hustings for the leadership election this morning at 9am on BBC2
or live on BBC i-player if you have a licence
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 7:20 am

Morning.

Thanks to MsChin and AAW for some background on Jess Phillips and her work for women's safety, which is to be commended. However given her experience in the field I cannot help but think she hasn't helped her cause lately. I'm also grateful to ohso and share the sentiment of that statement from victims of abuse. I cannot see any correlation between personal abuse and Corbyn the man himself. How is he supposed to name and shame those that apparently have nothing whatsoever to do with him? What on earth makes her think he is personally responsible? He has done nothing but deride such behaviour.

There is a world of difference between having one's tongue firmly in cheek and unceremoniously wagging it. 'And just to be clear there is nothing sexist about this whatsoever. I only add that last sentence because so called PC gone mad has a tendency to label it such, so I hope I've not upset anyone.

Cheers for now.

Postscript: please do not think I know nothing of personal abuse having been both racially and sexually abused in my youth. I do not and shall not play the victim... and that's not to mention fighting my late wife's and daughter's corner when witnessing discrimination against the disabled.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 7:29 am

Maybe both candidates could ask their supporters at hustings not to boo and heckle at their hustings, and ask the hecklers/boo-ers to stop when they do. That would be a start.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 7:31 am

UD - for some survivors 'playing the victim' is part of the legacy of their abuse, or something they go through as they work through the painful issues.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 7:33 am

yahyah wrote:UD - for some survivors 'playing the victim' is part of the legacy of their abuse, or something they go through as they work through the painful issues.

Thanks, yahyah, I do appreciate that and in some ways it is perhaps easier for blokes even if I am smaller than many women. In many ways it just became a part of my growing up. Mmm I've just recalled my reaction to my late wife's father on learning of his abuse toward her and one of her old bosses at work and it does sometimes take a bloke to take on the fight. So there is a wider context I guess.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 7:47 am

Thanks to Mschin & AngryAsWell for the info on Jess Phillips.
As has been said [by PK1 ?] if she supported Corbyn she would probably be lauded as a feisty straight talker, an example of a strong working class woman.

Panic rooms must be on the minds of many MPs and their families, not just females, after the killing of Jo Cox, and the toxic atmosphere around Labour politics & Brexit can't be helping.

Have also seen it implied that it is those who feel intimidated at Labour meetings, or elsewhere in Labour party dealings, who have the problem.
That seems close to the the age old sexist notions that 'women are too emotional, poor dears', or ''women make things up to get attention''

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 7:53 am

I note your use of 'feisty', yahyah, which is an example of the PC gone mad I spoke of earlier. Coming from you it's perfectly acceptable whereas from a bloke it's often construed as misogyny.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:00 am

utopiandreams wrote:I note your use of 'feisty', yahyah, which is an example of the PC gone mad I spoke of earlier. Coming from you it's perfectly acceptable whereas from a bloke it's often construed as misogyny.

My husband calls me feisty. I think me means it as a compliment as he has said it's one of the reasons he married me.
There is more than one definition of feisty, I presume my other half means the former, not the latter

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/feisty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But agree, concerns about use of language are understandable.
You'll get told off by someone, whatever you say.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:05 am

yahyah wrote:... You'll get told off by someone, whatever you say.

I'd better shut up then.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:07 am

Deleted:Subject to a Supreme Court Appeal.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:20 am

The July employment figures are due this morning.
A financial bod from the City on Radio 4 thinks the Brexit vote will have already affected them downwards.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:31 am

Seeing as I'm one of the people who sparked this discussion, my only tuppence worth extra to add to it, in response to pk1. The first people to forget (in terms of their behaviour to others) about Jo Cox were Labour MPs. They are still forgetting. Every slur against their own party's members - new or old - is them forgetting it. In response to Willow a few weeks(?) ago I posted a list of all the insults that had been said about Corbyn's supporters. It was too long. It was too offensive. It all came from the mouths or keyboards of former and sitting Labour MPs.

If MPs don't want to get stung then they really, really, really need to stop whacking the bee's nest.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:32 am

The much admired

Sivier illustrates the point with his attack on Phillips. It's all her own fault basically, and he implies she should go if she isn't happy. Victim blaming in other words.

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/08/1 ... os-paying/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coming after his stupid and desperate smear piece 'a woman who suffered domestic violence thinks Owen Smith might have the profile of a domestic abuser' he scrapes another barrel.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:42 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Seeing as I'm one of the people who sparked this discussion, my only tuppence worth extra to add to it, in response to pk1. The first people to forget (in terms of their behaviour to others) about Jo Cox were Labour MPs. They are still forgetting. Every slur against their own party's members - new or old - is them forgetting it. In response to Willow a few weeks(?) ago I posted a list of all the insults that had been said about Corbyn's supporters. It was too long. It was too offensive. It all came from the mouths or keyboards of former and sitting Labour MPs.

If MPs don't want to get stung then they really, really, really need to stop whacking the bee's nest.

Sometimes we have to try not to retaliate. It would help if people didn't stoke the fire.
When I've learned how to myself, I'll send out the memo to both factions

There's too much stereotyping.
Have experienced it myself.
Was one of those crticised and insulted as a Corbyn supporter when I voted for him last year.
Now I'm suddenly a Blairite/red Tory reviled and sneered at here and elsewhere because I cannot raise the enthusiasm to vote for him again, and don't think swearing about or smearing his rival is good for the party or the gentler politics Corbyn said he stood for.

There is a very definite sense emanating from some that if you are not pro-Corbyn you are not only anti-Corbyn but right wing as well. No grey areas allowed it seems. All very polarised. Which helps no one, certainly not the people who need the Tories out.
It isn't helped by those who take offence at statements which bear some truth by pretending it refers to everyone. [don't do what I do, do what I say

]

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:49 am

Hi PF. Still not many butterflies at all. Less bats too.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 8:51 am

Phillips is no Danczuk.

Women are getting far more abuse than the like of, say, Reynolds.

Corbyn's response?

There is no increase in abuse.

Oh, except of me.

See this appalling interview from 3 days ago

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -education" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Do you think it has increased?

No. I am not sure it has. I know that I have received more abuse than I ever use to. But then maybe I’m better known these days. But I receive more abuse than anybody else. The best way of dealing with abuse is: ignore it."

Usual to say that whatever else, Corbyn is a nice bloke. I don't think he is that either.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 9:19 am

Good morning

I see camps are still being drawn and the insults flying in the press and blogosphere

It is a shame they seem to be still happening here as well

I have refrained from posting due to the atmosphere (and me wanting not to inflame) and also cos I was in sunny Scotland and couldn't get to the internet easily

I am still supporting Corbyn for the leadership - not necessarily with great enthusiasm and not because I have any great problems with Owen Smith - it is just based on my view that he is the best placed to move things in the direction I want. If Smith wins then fine and I will support him in implementing his promises (apart from Trident where I remain opposed) from the campaign

That I guess is the opinion of many on here - we are not particularly enthusiastic about the choice we have but it has to come down, for me, to the direction of policy and I still tend to the view that Smith would buckle....perhaps he can come again when Corbyn stands down - I also believe his chances are severely damaged by the PLP attempted coup and the attempts to disenfranchise new members. I argue not about the legal case here but the perception to the membership and outside world

If we look at the PLP, the vast majority probably do a very good job as constituency MPs and that is very important to consider. Some of them don't though...I have experienced that myself. They are not immune from criticism

One thing MPs have got to watch, and Labour ones in particular, is to be used by the press to damage the party and the leadership. I have criticised Diane Abbott many times over the years for her vacuous and inane comments that have done nothing to help herself or the party. We see a few others who do the same now - it is only a few but they are always in the press and, worringly, do not seem to have the sense to know when to stop

Jess Phillips, I am afraid to say, is one of these. She may be a good person with things to say but I have stopped listening to be honest. She makes everything about misogyny and then uses that to attack her own party and leadership in a manner that, in my view, is completely unproductive. She is also quite selective in her attacks - blaming the leadership for no female selected in the mayoral election (which I find an astounding accusation) but then accepting the PLP not nominating a woman to challenge Corbyn without a whimper

There are others as well; Woodcock, Reed, Mann (although he seems to have been a lot more considered recently)

I dispute yahyah's suggestion that 'if she was a Corbyn support she would be lauded as a feisty straight talker' - would she really? I would say that I would want her to be quiet as she is being counterproductive....rather like I often groan when I see Abbott in the media.

We also see Jo Cox being brought up again and again as a comparison to Phillips - I thing this is wrong in my view. Jo Cox politically was different from me but she was clearly an inspirational person and she was in the right party. She was, however, more able to focus her energy into positive things rather than appearing in the press every day, or ranting on twitter. Jo Cox achieved and influenced far more by her approach than Jess Phillips will - I suggest she learns that lesson

The trouble is I think Jess Phillips likes being the centre of attention - I may be being unfair but I have seen nothing that contradicts this, and to repeat myself, I never read anything she says anymore.

As a message to some on here, I do find the way that this is being seen as only a one way issue a little frustrating. There have been some quite nasty insults flying around from all sides and it is not just limited to the Corbyn camp.

We also have to accept that this leadership election is a watershed one. I do no blame Owen Smith for this but rather the circumstances it came about. There will be passion and some people feel very strongly. I do not worry too much about booing and heckling at party meetings etc....of course it has to be done without menace but this was how politics has been done for years and I am less bothered than others.

Corbyn has also been heckled as well and that is fine...he needs to be able to respond to this. What is a problem though is when the heckling is organized and done for the benefit of the media (and that cannot be all laid at the feet of the Corbyn campaign!)

The way posts are being positioned suggests that those of us who support Corbyn arwe unable to see the bigger picture and are slavishly following every word - this is of course wriong in virtually every case but is being sold as such

I am sad that we are at this juncture...I see no benefit in this long camapign...I wish we could have the election tomorrow and then start dealing with the future. Whatever that is

I want Corbyn to think about how he heals the rifts...perhaps some personnel changes in his office would help.....and that he does not think a win means he can do what he wants (as Blair did). Many of his opponents are in the right party and can be used to come up with good policies....they have to understand that he has a mandate though. There are others, though, who have to consider their position and whether they accept changes to the party's direction.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 9:22 am

I would also like to add there is one poster on here who is joyously using the current leadership contest and the differences over Brexit to cause trouble here just as they seem to wherever they post

I suggest he or she is not allowed to poison the atmosphere further than it already is

I doubut though that anyone will listen though to be honest as this board seems to be going the same way as the Labour Party!

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 9:25 am

I do not think that it is in any way supportive of personal/verbal/sexual/misogynist/whatever abuse to dislike Jess Phillips and her constant self publicising behaviour. I dislike her because of that behaviour.
It is ridiculous to say that, were she a supporter of Corbyn, those of us who think she's an immature attention-seeker would alter our view. THat's like saying I wouldn't think Danczuk was a plonker if he supported Corbyn.

She is doing her "cause" no good - in fact, she is just the kind of "feminist" that I, as a woman, have absolutely no time for. I am in no doubt that if she didn't have this issue to make a noise about, she'd find something else to make it all about her. In fact, she already has - she made a real song and dance about what she saw as a lack of female candidates for the city mayoralities, then managed to make a prat of herself by opining that Luciana Berger would never have been nominated anyway and messaging a member of Corbyn's staff not by name but as "lovely".

I know what abuse is. I have dealt with people (on both a personal and professional basis) who have been abused in various ways.
I am as disgusted as anyone regarding the nasty stuff that goes on - from both sides, in fact - and I agree that it needs to stop.
However, I do not think that having photos taken of your new locks in your home, publishing them on social media, and telling anyone who'll listen that you're installing a panic room in an office where you don't actually spend a lot of time, is conduct I'd expect from any MP.

Having told a shadow cabinet member to fuck off, having said that she would stab the leader in the front (presumably this is better than stabbing him in the back), and having told the MSM that she won't stay where she's not welcome, you'll all have to forgive me for thinking that if Jess Phillips is what the new breed of young MPs is like, I'll pass, thanks.

As for Spinning Hugo's post on that Corbyn interview, as ever with ORCT, it's bollocks.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 9:28 am

Great posts already this morning. Keep up the good work ftners.

Anyone watching the debate btw? I'm following it on the G.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 9:36 am

StephenDolan wrote:Great posts already this morning. Keep up the good work ftners.

Anyone watching the debate btw? I'm following it on the G.

I'm watching it (sort of - with my back to the TV).

Seems to be simply a personal thing rather than a policy discussion. It's not broadening out the debate at all. I can't see anyone being won over from either side.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 9:36 am

Good morfternoon.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 9:48 am

utopiandreams wrote:Morning.

Thanks to MsChin and AAW for some background on Jess Phillips and her work for women's safety, which is to be commended. However given her experience in the field I cannot help but think she hasn't helped her cause lately. I'm also grateful to ohso and share the sentiment of that statement from victims of abuse. I cannot see any correlation between personal abuse and Corbyn the man himself. How is he supposed to name and shame those that apparently have nothing whatsoever to do with him? What on earth makes her think he is personally responsible? He has done nothing but deride such behaviour.

There is a world of difference between having one's tongue firmly in cheek and unceremoniously wagging it. 'And just to be clear there is nothing sexist about this whatsoever. I only add that last sentence because so called PC gone mad has a tendency to label it such, so I hope I've not upset anyone.

Cheers for now.

Postscript: please do not think I know nothing of personal abuse having been both racially and sexually abused in my youth. I do not and shall not play the victim... and that's not to mention fighting my late wife's and daughter's corner when witnessing discrimination against the disabled.

Further to my posts last night, do I remember something about Corbyn giving someone the job of investigating abuse amongst MPs?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 9:48 am

PorFavor wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Great posts already this morning. Keep up the good work ftners.

Anyone watching the debate btw? I'm following it on the G.
I'm watching it (sort of - with my back to the TV).

Seems to be simply a personal thing rather than a policy discussion. It's not broadening out the debate at all. I can't see anyone being won over from either side.

I agree with you...have the election tomorrow would be better as minds are pretty much made up

The policy difference is not huge, it is all abour personality and it depends on which side you choose

The issue is that is a binary decision but getting to it is not as simple...I am probably 60:40 Corbyn but no more than that, perhaps less

I just don't fully trust Smith, and I just wish there was a better candidate from the left (who though?)

The differences between us are pretty small which is why the atmosphere saddens me.....and the apparent glee that some have in keeping it that way

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:01 am

MPs represent all their constituents. But it's not all the constituents that decide whether you are the party candidate.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:10 am

It's those damn binary choices again, hsom, Brexit/Bremain (don't blame me, just adopting the populist lingo) and now, for Labour at least, the leadership contest. It harks back to bloody FPTP and largely the choice between two parties that neither can satisfy on all counts. Politics and life is far more subtle and nuanced. I had hoped for some form of PR and indeed Cameron's opposition to AV looked as though it would come back to bite him on the arse.

Now however it seems he has been vindicated because instead of reaching out to a broader left it seems the PLP are retrenching their position and allowing the Tories free reign.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:11 am

yahyah wrote:Maybe both candidates could ask their supporters at hustings not to boo and heckle at their hustings, and ask the hecklers/boo-ers to stop when they do. That would be a start.

#

June 2016. Maybe they've all seen the light since then. Or not depending on your viewpoint.

Am just going over to the main thread, bet I got some flak for posting it there

Maybe this forum would be better if people didnt post with childish glee at winding others up for their opinions?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:12 am

ephemerid wrote:I do not think that it is in any way supportive of personal/verbal/sexual/misogynist/whatever abuse to dislike Jess Phillips and her constant self publicising behaviour. I dislike her because of that behaviour.
It is ridiculous to say that, were she a supporter of Corbyn, those of us who think she's an immature attention-seeker would alter our view. THat's like saying I wouldn't think Danczuk was a plonker if he supported Corbyn.

She is doing her "cause" no good - in fact, she is just the kind of "feminist" that I, as a woman, have absolutely no time for. I am in no doubt that if she didn't have this issue to make a noise about, she'd find something else to make it all about her. In fact, she already has - she made a real song and dance about what she saw as a lack of female candidates for the city mayoralities, then managed to make a prat of herself by opining that Luciana Berger would never have been nominated anyway and messaging a member of Corbyn's staff not by name but as "lovely".

I know what abuse is. I have dealt with people (on both a personal and professional basis) who have been abused in various ways.
I am as disgusted as anyone regarding the nasty stuff that goes on - from both sides, in fact - and I agree that it needs to stop.
However, I do not think that having photos taken of your new locks in your home, publishing them on social media, and telling anyone who'll listen that you're installing a panic room in an office where you don't actually spend a lot of time, is conduct I'd expect from any MP.

Having told a shadow cabinet member to fuck off, having said that she would stab the leader in the front (presumably this is better than stabbing him in the back), and having told the MSM that she won't stay where she's not welcome, you'll all have to forgive me for thinking that if Jess Phillips is what the new breed of young MPs is like, I'll pass, thanks.

As for Spinning Hugo's post on that Corbyn interview, as ever with ORCT, it's bollocks.

I think what started the brouhaha over Jesse Phillips security arrangements, is that she posted an image of her house being fitted with new locks on Twitter? As some Tweeters pointed it wasn't the brightest thing to do. And announcing to the world you've got a panic room, only tells someone who might be thinking of an assault on her not to bother trying it when she's in her office.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:23 am

Blimey I forgot to make my point as I was interrupted by a real world conversation.

I was intending to say that politics has become confrontational as a result rather than cooperating for the greater good... Am just waiting to be told we all have different views on how we get there or even where there is.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:30 am

I'm not sure it actually matters all that much who wins this bloody contest, as far as the diehards/factions are concerned.

I don't think Momentum is any more sinister than Progress - Momentum is alleged to be actively encouraging the so-called "hard left" to join Labour; nobody knows what Progress is up to because they're so secretive.
The majority of CLPs are nominating Corbyn in England; there's evidence of various Labour councillors (eg.Lambeth) writing to local residents exhorting them to vote for Smith; everyone's up in arms, seemingly.
Blunkett's got a load of dosh from Oakeshott to set up his "Labour Tomorrow" thing, and I don't doubt for a nanosecond that this will be Blair Redux dressed up as something new and exciting....
Nobody has a clue what the majority of Labour members think, nor Labour voters; it's anyone's guess what swing voters are thinking; the polls make about as much sense now as they did before the GE in 2015.

I remain of the view that the coup against Corbyn was planned. We've had constant media noise about how useless he is since before the leadership election of last year, and it hasn't stopped.

First we had shadow cabinet ministers refusing to serve and flouncing off in high dudgeon; then we had Hunt and Umunna trying to get "Labour Resistance" going from the back benches; then there was all manner of vitriol in the press and on social media; then there were rows about the local elections; then Corbyn was undermined from his own side on Syria; then there was the nonsense after the referendum when the likes of Benn used Brexit as an excuse to express their lack of confidence; then we had Eagle launching her pink thing, the non-incident of the brick, and the discovery that her campaign website had been up for weeks beforehand; then we had the drip-drip-drip of orchestrated resignations, with people oh so reluctantly and oh so tearfully explaining why they simply couldn't, sob, go on; people moaning about bullying whn they're asked to leave offices they should have vacated weeks before; people who go along to listen the Corbyn in their thousands described as cult members.....then Smith throws his hat into the ring and Eagle bows out; then the NEC indulges itself in a show of power that it should be deeply ashamed of, with newly-invented rules, court cases, and a profligate waste of members money gleaned in part from people who paid extra on top of their subs for the privilege of voting in an election they had always understood they had a right to vote in because their membership application said so; it's pathetic.

If anyone who is supporting Smith's current policies thinks he will get any more support than Corbyn has, they're mad. Smith's policies are very like Corbyns' (with the exception of Trident); and Corbyn's are not a million miles away from Ed Milband's - and he wasn't supported either.

People say that Labour is a broad church - it seems to me that it's so broad it wants to accommodate centre-right politicians who call themselves moderates, pretends it has room for politicians who are left-of-centre as long as they don't aspire to the leadership, and will gang up and brief against Brown (because he's not Blair), the wrong Miliband (because he's not Blair), Corbyn (because he's not Blair), and n time should he succeed Smith too (because he's not Blair). Smith has no chance of unifying the party unless he ditches half the policies he's campaigning on now.

The rentagobs will never belt up (I'm looking at you, Reed, Mann, Phillips, McTernan, et al) and the elegant suits (Hunt, Umunna, etc) won't move to the left; Both Corbyn and Smith (provided he sticks to his policies) will not get the support they need; prats and has-beens like Blunkett and Mandelson will carry on causing problems - so Labour might as well split now.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:32 am

utopiandreams wrote:Blimey I forgot to make my point as I was interrupted by a real world conversation.

I was intending to say that politics has become confrontational as a result rather than cooperating for the greater good... Am just waiting to be told we all have different views on how we get there or even where there is.

Can't trust the press, the media, or even at times social media. Under reported.
Result? Hustings, outdoor meetings, where you get it from the horses mouth as it were. Immediate communication.
Clapping and cheering when we approve, but when we disapprove - what?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:38 am

Stabbing in the front or if you're American exercising your second amendment rights it would seem, ohso.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 10:42 am

I was with you until Labour might as well split, ephe. Without PR or something approaching it they of all people had better pull their act together. 'And together is the operative term.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:03 am

Re the vexed Jess Phillips question - can I just say something factual here?

In her frequent admiring media portrayals, she is routinely described as "working class" - indeed I think some on here have done this.

However, the FACTS are that her mother was a senior NHS administrator and her father a teacher.

If that is a "working class" background then about 99% of people in the UK are "working class".

I do not know if she first put this idea into the heads of our beloved MSM or if they just decided it was true anyway (because she has a Brummie accent, perhaps??) but either way, she has done little to disabuse people of this fallacy has she?

And sorry, but the idea she would just be getting praise if she was behaving in an identical way except for supporting Corbyn is simply

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:13 am

Deleted

Post by **adam** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:14 am

And another great thing about the IRA, I always think, apart from the warnings - and the uniforms, which were stylish but also practical - is that they had achievable aims, didn't then? What do they want? A united Ireland. And of course it's possible to imagine getting around the table and negotiating towards that. What do Al-Qaeda want? Al-Qaeda want to see the destruction of Western Judaeo-Christian civilisation in its entirety. And it's harder to imagine getting around the table and negotiating towards that, isn't it? 'Obviously, you'll appreciate we're unable to meet all of your demands. But here are some areas of Western Judaeo-Christian civilisation that we'd be happy to let go".

Stewart Lee - 90s Comedian

The idea that we talk to 'terrorists' or our enemies generally is a perfectly sound one and something that tends to always happen eventually, and the naysaying that will follow this from the press is boringly predictable, but we're stuck - as a country/ as a part of Western Judaeo-Christian civilisation - with an apparently big taboo about seriously questioning our policies towards the Saudi regime and the Labour Party have talked themselves into a ridiculous corner about questioning the disgusting and shameful policies of the government of the State of Israel towards the illegally Occupied Territories.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:19 am

adam wrote:
And another great thing about the IRA, I always think, apart from the warnings - and the uniforms, which were stylish but also practical - is that they had achievable aims, didn't then? What do they want? A united Ireland. And of course it's possible to imagine getting around the table and negotiating towards that. What do Al-Qaeda want? Al-Qaeda want to see the destruction of Western Judaeo-Christian civilisation in its entirety. And it's harder to imagine getting around the table and negotiating towards that, isn't it? 'Obviously, you'll appreciate we're unable to meet all of your demands. But here are some areas of Western Judaeo-Christian civilisation that we'd be happy to let go".
Stewart Lee - 90s Comedian

Editing in progress...

Well indeed.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:20 am

And do you know what I like about Corbyn's 'rallies'? Mums and dads can to to listen and bring the kids. Regular people that wouldn't dream of going to an indoor political meeting go along. The really hard up can go. It's taking politics to the people.

And best of all children will be getting an idea of what it's all about. Standing under a lamp outside Bert the Grocers shop listening to politicians on soapboxes was my first experience of the political process.

I can't see anything against them.

Post by **adam** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:21 am

StephenDolan wrote:
adam wrote:
Editing in progress...
Well indeed.

*shrug* I hit Submit before I meant to.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:24 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re the vexed Jess Phillips question - can I just say something factual here?

In her frequent admiring media portrayals, she is routinely described as "working class" - indeed I think some on here have done this.

However, the FACTS are that her mother was a senior NHS administrator and her father a teacher.

If that is a "working class" background then about 99% of people in the UK are "working class".

I do not know if she first put this idea into the heads of our beloved MSM or if they just decided it was true anyway (because she has a Brummie accent, perhaps??) but either way, she has done little to disabuse people of this fallacy has she?

And sorry, but the idea she would just be getting praise if she was behaving in an identical way except for supporting Corbyn is simply

Quite, AK.

There was a piece in the Graun she wrote about how Corbyn "did nothing" to ensure that women were put up as mayoral hopefuls.
Quite why a feminist wants a man to to place women in contests they haven't volunteered for is a mystery...

Anyway - she explained how she had sent texts about this to both Corbyn and his staff. Texts. Obviously, this is how to arrange an important meeting with your party leader these days. Send them a text, then get the hump when they don't reply.....and see no irony in posting on Twitter, when asked why she didn't reply to a question, that she gets thousands of messages daily so can't reply to all.

Of course, if you send a text to someone whose name you don't know (or possibly whose name you do know) and call them "lovely" it's perfectly OK because you're a woman and a feminist, so there.

If a man dares, whether he knows your name or not, to call you "lovely" (or, god forfend, "dear", young lady", "duckie" etc.) it's evil nasty institutionalised misogyny and well worth another article in the Daily Groan.....

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:25 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re the vexed Jess Phillips question - can I just say something factual here?

In her frequent admiring media portrayals, she is routinely described as "working class" - indeed I think some on here have done this.

However, the FACTS are that her mother was a senior NHS administrator and her father a teacher.

If that is a "working class" background then about 99% of people in the UK are "working class".

I do not know if she first put this idea into the heads of our beloved MSM or if they just decided it was true anyway (because she has a Brummie accent, perhaps??) but either way, she has done little to disabuse people of this fallacy has she?

And sorry, but the idea she would just be getting praise if she was behaving in an identical way except for supporting Corbyn is simply

Yes. that definition of working class would put me on a lower level than a serf

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:29 am

Ooh Ohso - you're just a pleb like me.

What a relief! I thought I was the only one left after AK's post....

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:31 am

Thought this was good. And don't worry, there is a political point...

Gold rush – the role of UK Sport in Team GB’s success

http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.u ... s-success/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the reasons for Team GB’s success is ruthless performance management by UK Sport, the arm’s length body that allocates funding to high-performance sports.

Oh, it's a quango...

Meanwhile, non-sports commentators are getting in on the act, debating whether this is a success for planned, top-down intervention or a ‘right-wing’ triumph. There are attempts to draw parallels for industrial strategy (back emerging sector winners, rather than propping up losers – whether it is steel or basketball) and education (with some arguing that this is an example of elitism working). In truth, these analogies are a bit tortured. There are few other areas of public sector activity which have such licence or where it is desirable to focus so ruthlessly.

But, as we said in Making the Games, one important lesson is that well-designed and governed quangos can deliver. In fact, the biggest threat to our Rio success came from within government – when it was proposed to merge UK Sport with the grassroots sports promoter Sport England. This would have created a body with a confused mandate and muddled accountability. Staving off that merger may have been a key factor in ensuring that we have been able to celebrate building on Team GB’s London 2012’s medal success rather than bemoan a precipitous drop.

So whose idea was that?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/8855543.stm

Culture secretary Jeremy Hunt said the merger would "create a more effective structure to deliver sport success and a wider legacy from the 2012 Games".

Good job that "bonfire of the quangos" turned out to be a damp squib...

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:41 am

"Labour Tomorrow" or "Labour Tomorrow Belongs to Me"?

The young woman who was taken ill at the Corbyn event yesterday is OK apparently. She fainted, (it was very hot yesterday), and banged her head as she fell. So that's good news.

Good morning all.

Edited to add: Good news that she's ok obvs, not that she banged her head. Which is how it reads.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:42 am

Born literally classless die classless in both senses never bothered with such affectatious nonsense" he did no knowing harm that'll do.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 11:43 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re the vexed Jess Phillips question - can I just say something factual here?

In her frequent admiring media portrayals, she is routinely described as "working class" - indeed I think some on here have done this.

However, the FACTS are that her mother was a senior NHS administrator and her father a teacher.

If that is a "working class" background then about 99% of people in the UK are "working class".

I do not know if she first put this idea into the heads of our beloved MSM or if they just decided it was true anyway (because she has a Brummie accent, perhaps??) but either way, she has done little to disabuse people of this fallacy has she?

And sorry, but the idea she would just be getting praise if she was behaving in an identical way except for supporting Corbyn is simply

Which profile specifically has described her as working class? I looked up the recent-ish one in the Graun, which is the only one I know

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... believe-in" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

which perfectly accurately describes her background (fatehr a teacher etc).

I never thought she was working class herself. Who has said she was?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 12:09 pm

There are other newspapers than just the Graun, you know. And she is also routinely described thus (including by hacks) on social media.

It has become a - false - meme. And one also used to assert that the "working class" oppose Corbyn more generally.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 12:19 pm

ephemerid wrote:Ooh Ohso - you're just a pleb like me.

What a relief! I thought I was the only one left after AK's post....

Bowed, but not beaten....

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 12:20 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There are other newspapers than just the Graun, you know. And she is also routinely described thus (including by hacks) on social media.

It has become a - false - meme. And one also used to assert that the "working class" oppose Corbyn more generally.

Secifically where is she so refereed to in a profie (or article,

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 12:22 pm

HindleA wrote:Born literally classless die classless in both senses never bothered with such affectatious nonsense" he did no knowing harm that'll do.

Oh I was definitely born working class. No mistaking it...Brilliant it was. Wish I could have it all over again, and that my kids and their kids could have experienced it.