Thursday 1st September 2016

[refitman]

Morning all.

[StephenDolan]

Morning all.


Popular author expresses preference for a leadership candidate.

Definitely worth an article or two according to the G. And here's me thinking Watt leaving would cut down on this crap.

Other minor news :-

Doctors strike planned, Hinkley point, pensions shortfall, EU referendum debate was pitiful.

[yahyah]

hi seeingclearly. Hope things haven't been too bad with your health recently.

[Willow904]

http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/somerset- ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A Somerset Labour Party member in her 80s has been thrown out of the party for a single Twitter retweet made almost a year ago.

And another Somerset party member has been barred from voting in the leadership election after being accused of making an abusive post on social media.

It's clear from this article that standard letters are being sent out that don't really properly set out why people have been barred or suspended. It reflects badly on Labour but in a strange way has made me more sympathetic to Ukip. Ukip are often accused of allowing awful people in the party, with their social media used to expose them, but Labour's experience is showing how impossible it is to police member's social media usage fairly. Is there really grounds to trawl long standing members social media other than in response to a direct complaint? Indeed, have there been direct complaints in these cases? We don't know. As for new members, there does seem to be a case to use social media to ensure people share Labour's values and this is why I'm against the registered supporter idea. It has become clear that it's impossible to vet so many people all at once in a way that's fair and effective. There really should be a few months probation before any new member is allowed a vote in anything. It would seriously reduce tensions between long-standing and new members, I think.

[seeingclearly]

reposted from 3am yesterday......

Hi Nesters! (waves with white hanky aloft)

Whhat happened to this place? While the pub seems in sparkling form our little parleyement seems to be in almost as wobbly a state as the real one.

Many thanks for the lemurs and countryside, wonderful for someone who has just lost a third summer to ceiling gazing, and where I come from the lemurs are indeed every bit as charming as described. Oh, and. hello extankie I don't believe we've met?

[RogerOThornhill]

Morning all. A brief visit before I hop off to school for the morning.

My local paper is reporting that Redbridge Momentum had to apologise to Mike Gapes over their claim that he voted in favour of the bedroom tax.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Too many of these slurs flying around.

[yahyah]

@seeingclearly

Labour leadership rancour happened to this place. The same issues that have always divided it.

[Willow904]

Morning all. A brief visit before I hop off to school for the morning.

My local paper is reporting that Redbridge Momentum had to apologise to Mike Gapes over their claim that he voted in favour of the bedroom tax.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Too many of these slurs flying around.

I agree. It exposes the problem of relying on social media campaigning. Nothing is double checked to quite the same standards as it would be if it was being sent to the printers to be made into leaflets (although standards are slipping there, too). There's a meme circulating Twitter at the moment that Labour is the biggest party in Europe. I don't think this is strictly factually correct and thus just makes me doubt the veracity of everything else that comes from the same people. It helps no one in the end.

[yahyah]

Morning all. A brief visit before I hop off to school for the morning.

My local paper is reporting that Redbridge Momentum had to apologise to Mike Gapes over their claim that he voted in favour of the bedroom tax.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Too many of these slurs flying around.

It'll be embedded in thousands of Facebook pages and other social media things, so will probably get repeated despite the apology. Whatever one thinks of Gapes lies and misinformation do Corbyn no favours.

That's what irked me so much with one individual's onslaught against Smith on FTN.
A quick internet search showed the truth in most cases, but hey, what's the truth matter when someone's bodged up a photoshop of the ''red Tory/spawn of Blair enemy'' looking stupid and a misleading caption's been added ?
It doesn't help democracy, you don't have to be a fan of the right wing of the party to see that.

[yahyah]

A lot of it is veering into Iain Duncan Smith territory Willow.
If people see a tweet or a Facebook pic they 'believe' it to be true.

Any attempt to point out it isn't just means you are part of the ''establishment elite conspiracy'', an accusation that's thrown by some Corbyn supporters as well as some Leave voters during the EU campaign. We've got our own versions of the US Tea Party developing.

[yahyah]

Sorry, I've veered into the leadership again.

Some good news from Wales.
There were a lot of shrieks from liberals when the Welsh Government introduced a scheme where you had to opt out of organ donation.

Since the scheme's been in operation there's been a 24% increase in organ transplants, and dozens of lives have been saved. The scheme has raised awareness about the issue too.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... s-11826642" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[seeingclearly]

@seeingclearly

Labour leadership rancour happened to this place. The same issues that have always divided it.

Too many familiar and well liked people not around or rarely posting, no matter their left/right leaning, my son has a theory, we ought to just get rid of those terms, save a lot of squabbling. You are right about all the internet stuff it is everywhere infesting everything and peoples minds too, and they have been well indoctrinated to trust nothing, the media has seen to that. As to the people who are working through Labours lists my guess is that work will largely be done by students or young people, and they are not being briefed well or held to account. Older fingers are slower and its a lot to do, I would abandon the process in itsentirety because I believe that itwill only be a small % who are real. trouble, the rest are genuine returners. Let them vote, the entire membership, this kind of purging should not be held, a d if people do start showing overt disloyalty as such types inevitably do pick them off one at a time, for a proper breach of the rules. They would have culled me over green leaning posts if I had joined, which I did actually do before the GE, but they were hopeless then and did not confirm, and after we lost I just couldn't be bothered.

If there are any of you out there who identify with being the MIAs I mention above, and are now lurking in the rubble, please come out, diversity is healthy, sound and what this place needs. I really really miss the richness of thinking we used to find here. all round.

[StephenDolan]

Morning all. I was thinking earlier about tiny margins.

Florida's voting on Gore v Bush.
Corbyn getting on the ballot at the last minute.
Yitzhak Rabin assassination attempt.
Brexit vote.

[seeingclearly]

Morning all. I was thinking earlier about tiny margins.

Florida's voting on Gore v Bush.
Corbyn getting on the ballot at the last minute.
Yitzhak Rabin assassination attempt.
Brexit vote.

And Scotland, which has culminated in the current mess. A referendum which should never have happened because it was offered for the wrong reasons, i.e. to break our political system.

[tinybgoat]

Morning all. I was thinking earlier about tiny margins.

Florida's voting on Gore v Bush.
Corbyn getting on the ballot at the last minute.
Yitzhak Rabin assassination attempt.
Brexit vote.

I was going to suggest that we should have a kind of "hysteresis boundary", but then wasn't sure i'd explain it well enough so found this on t'internet:

https://m.reddit.com/r/electionreform/c ... is_voting/

My understanding of it would be that for something like Brexit, the vote results in a change of state, so should require a reasonable majority for this too happen, say 15%, otherwise it's just down to churn, you could repeat the vote every 6 months getting a different result each time. Making a major change on a marginal result just causes unnecessary upheaval.

[nickyinnorfolk]

Morning all.


Popular author expresses preference for a leadership candidate.

Definitely worth an article or two according to the G. And here's me thinking Watt leaving would cut down on this crap.

Other minor news :-

Doctors strike planned, Hinkley point, pensions shortfall, EU referendum debate was pitiful.

I suppose the thing about JK Rowling is that people seem to take notice of what she says, even if they don't agree with her. She does care deeply that Labour is electable, because she remembers being at the bottom of society's heap during John Major's time. The current Tory regime seems worse if anything.

But there are of course more important stories to focus on.

[AnatolyKasparov]

http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/somerset- ... story.html

A Somerset Labour Party member in her 80s has been thrown out of the party for a single Twitter retweet made almost a year ago.

And another Somerset party member has been barred from voting in the leadership election after being accused of making an abusive post on social media.

It's clear from this article that standard letters are being sent out that don't really properly set out why people have been barred or suspended. It reflects badly on Labour but in a strange way has made me more sympathetic to Ukip. Ukip are often accused of allowing awful people in the party, with their social media used to expose them, but Labour's experience is showing how impossible it is to police member's social media usage fairly. Is there really grounds to trawl long standing members social media other than in response to a direct complaint? Indeed, have there been direct complaints in these cases? We don't know. As for new members, there does seem to be a case to use social media to ensure people share Labour's values and this is why I'm against the registered supporter idea. It has become clear that it's impossible to vet so many people all at once in a way that's fair and effective. There really should be a few months probation before any new member is allowed a vote in anything. It would seriously reduce tensions between long-standing and new members, I think.

There is and always has been.

IMO the problem is that too many people in the party machine have been conditioned to believe stupid memes about "entryism" (thanks Tom Watson, inter alia)

Instead of seeing a high (and active) membership as an intrinsically good thing.

[nickyinnorfolk]

Re JKR again - there was a contributor to Sparrow's blog called Fiendishloom whom I was convinced was her, due to her slightly verbose style and Jessica Mitford avatar (the left wing Mitford is Rowling's heroine, whom she named her daughter after).
https://profile.theguardian.com/user/id/3697105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[StephenDolan]

http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/somerset- ... story.html

A Somerset Labour Party member in her 80s has been thrown out of the party for a single Twitter retweet made almost a year ago.

And another Somerset party member has been barred from voting in the leadership election after being accused of making an abusive post on social media.

It's clear from this article that standard letters are being sent out that don't really properly set out why people have been barred or suspended. It reflects badly on Labour but in a strange way has made me more sympathetic to Ukip. Ukip are often accused of allowing awful people in the party, with their social media used to expose them, but Labour's experience is showing how impossible it is to police member's social media usage fairly. Is there really grounds to trawl long standing members social media other than in response to a direct complaint? Indeed, have there been direct complaints in these cases? We don't know. As for new members, there does seem to be a case to use social media to ensure people share Labour's values and this is why I'm against the registered supporter idea. It has become clear that it's impossible to vet so many people all at once in a way that's fair and effective. There really should be a few months probation before any new member is allowed a vote in anything. It would seriously reduce tensions between long-standing and new members, I think.

There is and always has been.

IMO the problem is that too many people in the party machine have been conditioned to believe stupid memes about "entryism" (thanks Tom Watson, inter alia)

Instead of seeing a high (and active) membership as an intrinsically good thing.

Indeed. Perhaps Tom Watson should read the deputy leaders speech from conference last year, he might pick up a few tips. Hang on...

[Willow904]

Morning all. I was thinking earlier about tiny margins.

Florida's voting on Gore v Bush.
Corbyn getting on the ballot at the last minute.
Yitzhak Rabin assassination attempt.
Brexit vote.

I was going to suggest that we should have a kind of "hysteresis boundary", but then wasn't sure i'd explain it well enough so found this on t'internet:

https://m.reddit.com/r/electionreform/c ... is_voting/

My understanding of it would be that for something like Brexit, the vote results in a change of state, so should require a reasonable majority for this too happen, say 15%, otherwise it's just down to churn, you could repeat the vote every 6 months getting a different result each time. Making a major change on a marginal result just causes unnecessary upheaval.

I can see why you were nervous of trying to explain this yourself! I tried to point out the issues with direct democracy (or "mob rule" - a phrase that didn't go down very well!) on CIF and got jumped on by almost everybody, even though, to me, the dangers and problems seem pretty obvious and are at least worth debating. Democracy shouldn't be 51% of people imposing what is anathema to the other 49% of the people. I think this was particularly forgotten by governments preceding the Brexit vote which neglected to ensure they took the country with them on EU related decisions. Because we were already in the EU and pro-EU representatives held power, the wishes of those who weren't supportive of the EU were completely ignored. More should have been done to make the case for the EU all along to create greater consensus and would have been if we didn't subscribe to this simple idea of democracy being a case of those who can put together a majority can do whatever they want and everyone else has to lump it. There was a time when it was recognized that politicians had a public duty to serve the interests of all, not just those who elected them. Trying to please everyone has become synonymous with negativity, an accusation thrown at politicians perceived to be shallow and unprincipled, yet when looked at from an alternative viewpoint, isn't trying to please everyone exactly what a politician should aspire to?

It's nuanced discussions like this that drew me to FTN ( and the links, of course, which is the main reason I still come here ), because it's virtually impossible to find people willing to have proper debates about such stuff on CIF these days, so I appreciate your bringing this topic up. I'd never heard of " hysteresis". It's an interesting idea.

[citizenJA]

Good-morning, everyone.

I'm delighted to read seeingclearly again!

[Willow904]

http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/somerset- ... story.html

A Somerset Labour Party member in her 80s has been thrown out of the party for a single Twitter retweet made almost a year ago.

And another Somerset party member has been barred from voting in the leadership election after being accused of making an abusive post on social media.

It's clear from this article that standard letters are being sent out that don't really properly set out why people have been barred or suspended. It reflects badly on Labour but in a strange way has made me more sympathetic to Ukip. Ukip are often accused of allowing awful people in the party, with their social media used to expose them, but Labour's experience is showing how impossible it is to police member's social media usage fairly. Is there really grounds to trawl long standing members social media other than in response to a direct complaint? Indeed, have there been direct complaints in these cases? We don't know. As for new members, there does seem to be a case to use social media to ensure people share Labour's values and this is why I'm against the registered supporter idea. It has become clear that it's impossible to vet so many people all at once in a way that's fair and effective. There really should be a few months probation before any new member is allowed a vote in anything. It would seriously reduce tensions between long-standing and new members, I think.

There is and always has been.

IMO the problem is that too many people in the party machine have been conditioned to believe stupid memes about "entryism" (thanks Tom Watson, inter alia)

Instead of seeing a high (and active) membership as an intrinsically good thing.

Except there isn't - registered supporters get to vote in arguably the most important vote, for the leadership, without even being members at all, let alone members of some months' standing. Which is why I feel Labour need to get rid of it.

And a growing membership is a good thing if people are motivated to join by loyalty to a party, but doesn't feel so positive when some of those trying to join happily admit they belonged to other parties during the last election and potentially voted against Ed Miliband. Surely you can understand why some Labour members may be less than happy about the situation. Every time someone states how honest and principled Corbyn is, my response is "...and Ed Miliband isn't?". With so many people saying they can now join/rejoin the party because Corbyn is leading it, it's hard not to take that as some kind of criticism of Ed and those of us who supported him. Acceptance and co-operation have to work both ways. Too many Corbyn supporters on social media seem to think they can de-select the MPs they don't like without "de-selecting" members and voters with similar views along with them. The hatred turned on anyone who doesn't get Corbyn's appeal, despite a lifetime dedicated to left-wing causes ( like Tony Robinson, for instance ), has been truly alarming. Although I know those who shout loudest on social media aren't necessarily representative, I find it very hard to ignore it and not be put off Corbyn even more as a result of it, if this is the kind of people who support him. This whole situation has tested my ability to remain objective to the utmost. I admit I've failed on many occasions, but I won't give up. I've found reasonable people supporting both Smith and Corbyn on Twitter* and am trying not to define people by the leadership contender they are supporting. None of us as individuals are to blame for the current situation.

Edited to add: *..and here, of course, that goes without saying!

[Willow904]

He was also asked to explain the claim in his memoir, Speaking Out, that Corbyn indulges in “leftist utopian fantasy”. Balls told Today”

I was making a broader point than just about Jeremy. I was talking about what we are seeing in America in Bernie Sanders, and with Donald Trump - an issue of left and right - and saying it is a complex, difficult world, in which populations are angry, incomes have not risen, people are worried about identity, the globalisation of labour, and there is a tendency for some to peddle a simple solution and say ‘We can just solve the problem, it’s all the fault of the bankers, or immigrants, or a neoliberal conspiracy, or welfare scroungers’. And I don’t think that’s enough.

This is essentially what worries me at the end of the day. Can anyone point to something concrete Corbyn has achieved in practical terms on the ground, so to speak? I'm not talking about presurising someone else to do something through rallies and protests, but something that shows he's applied practical solutions successfully himself. Has he introduced and seen through a private members bill, for instance? My previous Labour MP, Dan Norris, was a backbencher like Corbyn but was able to bring in and successfully roll out "Sarah's Law" to help protect children from paedophiles. Has Corbyn ever done anything like this? Or maybe there's some experience from before he was a backbencher. I guess my experience of positive, successful politics is that most things seem to be achieved by those that get on and quietly do stuff, rather than those who jump up and down moaning saying "something must be done". It could really help me get on board with Corbyn if people could highlight the things he's "quietly done". I agree with Ed Balls on the dangers of thinking there are simple solutions but am open to being convinced Corbyn doesn't belong in this category, if only because if he does it's too depressing to contemplate really.

Edited to add the above quote is from the G live blog.

[Willow904]

From the G live blog:

Theresa May will take her message that Britain is “open for business” to China at the weekend, but she may receive a frosty reception because of her decision to delay the decision to go ahead with the new Hinkley Point power station, in which China has a large stake. The future of the project is still under review.

One to keep an eye on.

[SpinningHugo]

By now, a familiar story

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... cf1ecd0d85" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Which is one reason why this can't turn out well.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Well, I can understand disagreeing with the "registered supporters" thing as a concept.

Let's just not forget which wing of the party originally pushed it

[SpinningHugo]

Well, I can understand disagreeing with the "registered supporters" thing as a concept.

Let's just not forget which wing of the party originally pushed it

The completely defunct one?

There are no 'wings' anymore. There are Corbyn supporters, and the soft left rump. And the PLP I suppose, prisoners of a party that despises them.

[yahyah]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09 ... ts-to-cut/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is the Telegraph, but the sorts of things quoted sound all too likely.

[Willow904]

Well, I can understand disagreeing with the "registered supporters" thing as a concept.

Let's just not forget which wing of the party originally pushed it

Sort of worked, though, didn't it? It allowed a marginal wing of the party engineer a majority over the soft left that's dominated over the last few years - it was just the wrong marginal wing, from their perspective.

[seeingclearly]

He was also asked to explain the claim in his memoir, Speaking Out, that Corbyn indulges in “leftist utopian fantasy”. Balls told Today”

I was making a broader point than just about Jeremy. I was talking about what we are seeing in America in Bernie Sanders, and with Donald Trump - an issue of left and right - and saying it is a complex, difficult world, in which populations are angry, incomes have not risen, people are worried about identity, the globalisation of labour, and there is a tendency for some to peddle a simple solution and say ‘We can just solve the problem, it’s all the fault of the bankers, or immigrants, or a neoliberal conspiracy, or welfare scroungers’. And I don’t think that’s enough.

This is essentially what worries me at the end of the day. Can anyone point to something concrete Corbyn has achieved in practical terms on the ground, so to speak? I'm not talking about presurising someone else to do something through rallies and protests, but something that shows he's applied practical solutions successfully himself. Has he introduced and seen through a private members bill, for instance? My previous Labour MP, Dan Norris, was a backbencher like Corbyn but was able to bring in and successfully roll out "Sarah's Law" to help protect children from paedophiles. Has Corbyn ever done anything like this? Or maybe there's some experience from before he was a backbencher. I guess my experience of positive, successful politics is that most things seem to be achieved by those that get on and quietly do stuff, rather than those who jump up and down moaning saying "something must be done". It could really help me get on board with Corbyn if people could highlight the things he's "quietly Corbyndone". I agree with Ed Balls on the dangers of thinking there are simple solutions but am open to being convinced Corbyn doesn't belong in this category, if only because if he does it's too depressing to contemplate.

Edited to add the above quote is from the G live blog.

Willow i tried to find some answer for you, as much for my own benefit as yours. There is this article on the Beeb that seems to indicate Corbyn had a successful career in AEEU and NUPE prior to becoming an MP, and it did in fact jog me on his part in obtaining justice for those wrongly imprisoned for the Birmingham and Guildford bombings. He also seemed to have a very strong commitment to his end of Labour activities, down to doing the hard work himself if noone else would. To me the article seemed to sum up a person of deep convictions not at all into just following any old path, a determined socialist of the very British Labour kind. Does this translate into being electable or prime ministerial? I really don't know, but when I look at people who have actually been elected it seems to me that he is definitely no worse, Cameron? Major? Four years is a long time and people are getting poorer and hungrier and are living in ever. smaller homes to survive. May has a slick little campaign going right now, but what will she be like then? If Labour was acting as a single party then we wouldn't be asking these questions and much as I liked Ed the media destroyed his credibility at every turn, Corbyn will be a tougher nut to crack. With the world heading into worker servitude again I am not writing him off yet. Will I vote for him? I really think it is far too early to call. This month I only know I would not put my vote Smiths way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34184265" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edited to correct sp.

[Willow904]

He ran the London Labour Briefing newspaper, which helped propel Ken Livingstone to power on the Greater London Council.

Corbyn "campaigns". Livingstone "does".The above sentence just confirms my impression really. The left put up the wrong candidate, in essence. I know they didn't expect to win, but they've got themselves in quite a hole as a result. If Corbyn resigns, they fear a better left candidate wouldn't get on the ballot, but how can someone so unsuited to the job who has lost the confidence of the vast majority of Labour MPs continue? Corbyn is clearly a very effective campaigner, I just can't see him ever making an effective leader, let alone PM and if too many people form that impression Labour will lose votes. Perhaps it doesn't make much difference at the moment, with the Tories comfortably ensconced for the next 4 years, but it will have to be faced up to eventually.

[citizenJA]

Effectively channelling individual strengths and experiences of team members into positions best suited makes completion of projects/organisations/goals successful.

[citizenJA]

How should Theresa May deliver Brexit? – live debate

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Depressing as hell. I feel sick inside, no hyperbole. I hadn't thought I'd feel like this.

[SpinningHugo]

Not true in the footage available on youtube, but not impossible I suppose

https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton/je ... rkZJ9B6jZn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TR'sGhost]

Trying to please everyone has become synonymous with negativity, an accusation thrown at politicians perceived to be shallow and unprincipled, yet when looked at from an alternative viewpoint, isn't trying to please everyone exactly what a politician should aspire to?

I really, really hope not.

First because it's obviously impossible.

Secondly because down that road lie the LibDems. Who made a specialism out of telling the electorate quite different things in different parts of the country. And, where they had council seats, following different policies across the country, though it's noticable that while they pretended to be a left alternative to Labour, they had a strong prediliction for forming colitions with Tories.

Further down the road you get the populists who make even Nick Clegg, Cable, Williams and the rest look almost honest and truthful.

If UK politicians historically did everything based on "what the majority want" then hanging would never have been ended, male homosexuality would have continued being a crime with a potential life sentence attached, England would be 99.9% white and non-Irish. Taxation would probably be very low but there'd be little state provision for anything, divorce still seen as a disgrace beyond words and disability regarded in pretty much the same way.

The role of a politician ought to be to know better than follow the wishes of those who don't, can't or won't understand the issues, and to campaign to make their ideas popular. Trouble is our media doesn't allow anyone who threatens to upset the cosy wealth-friendly low-taxation apple cart to do that.

The catch, of course is that our media is massively biased. Not just towards the Tories, but in a deeper, more fundamental way. It seeks to preserve the economic and social status quo. Corbyn challenges that status quo in a very real way. He's spent decades campaigning around unpopular issues, such as not going to war for colonial reasons, Ireland and Palestine. He regards industrial action as a legitimate tactic and says so, no knee-jerk condemnation of people trying to improve their conditions or keep their jobs from him. Unlike every Labour leader since Foot - who was undermined by the right wing of his PLP who were prepared to see Tories in power in 1983, 87 and 92, and actively enabled and supported a right-wing Tory government 2010-15.

Corbyn is an actual, genuine parliamentary socialist who wants to change the world, not offer up platitudes, sound-bites and homilies while being very relaxed about not actually changing much. Which is why he's being undermined continuously.

I have no idea at all where Owen Smith stands. I hear what he says, but I see no reason why I should believe him. Or why those who plotted against Brown, Miliband and Corbyn won't tear Smith down as well. Especially as he claims to support most of Corbyn's ideas. Which means either Smith is a liar and has no intention of doing what he says, or he'll be another leader torn down by the usual suspects.

You talk in other posts about "party loyalty". Sorry, but to me "my party right or wrong" is irrational and no better than "my king and country right or wrong" was in 1914. I feel less than zero loyalty to Mann, Phillips, Watson, Eagle, Hilary Benn and much less than zero to the likes of Field, Danczuk, Mandelson and D Miliband. Because I see no point any more in getting a government elected that lacks any foundation other than seeking power via triangulation, war against it's own supporters and members, outflanking the Tories on the right and wearing posher Armani suits and ties than the Tories.

Blair went down that road, and in the end it resulted in a steadily reducing Labour vote and membership, a party riven by factionalism and controlled largely by Progress Ltd. entrists and by enthusiastically pleasing the Mail and Sun by campaigning on issues like "unions are too powerful" , "stop the bogus asylum seekers" and "find the malingering benefit scroungers" laid the groundwork for what we now have.

Blair's government was moderated leftwards by Brown and those around him. He was easily the best Chancellor of my lifetime, unless you're very rich indeed. He probably prevented 2008 being much, much worse than it was, and impressed the IMF to the point it began its retreat from austerity being the answer to all problems and wanted to offer him a leading position when he lost in 2010 but Cameron said "no". And look what happened to Gordon Brown. Destroyed by social media trolls and astroturfers and the media in collusion with "senior un-named Labour figures".

A now very familiar story.

[danesclose]

Not true in the footage available on youtube, but not impossible I suppose

https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton/je ... rkZJ9B6jZn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is it time for the two minute hate again?

[citizenJA]

"Five years ago, amid the huge controversy surrounding the Health and Social Care Act, one proposal received a cautious
welcome: the transfer of responsibility for public health from the NHS to local authorities. It was felt that local authorities
could make a greater difference to the health and well being of their communities if the right expertise, powers and funding
were based there rather than within a health service more focused on treatment than prevention of disease."

- Public health is in crisis – and Theresa May is failing to act
Dr. Sarah Wollaston
Tory MP for Totnes

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-82342675" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my bold)

I beg your damn pardon ma'am, how does that work then?

The author is Tory MP for Totnes. She voted for the devastation that is the Health & Social Care Act 2012 and is a member of government
responsible for reducing resources the NHS receives and making health care provision supplied for a greater number of people cope
somehow with less funding.

'Cautious welcome turning responsibility of the NHS over to local authorities'

Without adequate funding, your governmental leadership has cost lives.

[Willow904]

@TR'sGhost

I think you may have misunderstood me a little (easy to do, I'm not always precise in my terminology). I was trying to articulate the need to build consensus, so everyone feels they have a stake in whatever political direction is taken. The simple idea that it's not acceptable for 51% to get whatever they want just because they form a majority, as this can be at the direct detriment of the minority. I'm not talking about politicians promising to give everyone what they want, I'm talking about a politician's duty to ensure what they offer is in the interests of everyone, at least as much as possible. I'm sure Corbyn would fit this description. I'm not so sure Brexiters, who admit they'll be negative economic consequences for some, do. They argue a simple, small majority in favour is enough, but I feel in a real democracy they need to go further, they need to demonstrate how their course of action will be in the interests of all or most of the public, including those who voted remain, who may wish to study or work abroad for example. There was no attempt to show the benefits to the doubters at all. It's this sense that a consensus isn't needed, that the majority deserve to get their way purely by being a majority that concerns me. As you say, if a majority is all you need to have your way, then lynchings would be acceptable yet we all instinctively understand they are not. When I talked of the need for politicians to try to please everyone, I was thinking in very different terms. For instance, in the realm of urban planning, a politician shouldn't just try to please the developer or just try to please the residents, or just the people who need homes. The best solutions are the ones that give everyone a bit of what they want, one that builds homes but without reducing the quality of life of existing residents, that allows the developer to make enough profit to remain in business, but doesn't allow them to line their pockets at the expense of local amenities etc. Outcomes everyone feels happy with should be what politicians aspire to, rather than outcomes that a small majority are happy with but are at the expense of the minority or, in your example of capital punishment, even at the expense of one person, if that person is someone who has unfairly been sentenced to death for a crime they didn't commit. Does that make any sense?

[Tizme1]

Greetings all,

I have been reading but not commenting because I don't feel I have anything useful to add at the moment. Well, partly that and partly due to personal concerns.

@Willow - I think I get what you are saying. I think I'd express it as MPs need to work towards solutions that have at least some level of acceptance for everyone [or as near as damn it]. As you say, some degree of consensus.

Although not a Labour party member, my youngest son is very pro Corbyn and commented to me earlier today that it looks like Corbyn will be re elected leader. I just said it looks that way at which point he stated I didn't sound very happy about it. I started to explain that firstly I'm not sure Corbyn will appeal to the wider electorate, and I got no further. Immediately he fires back "what and you think Natalie Bennett will"? At which point I just felt oh what's the point of even trying to discuss it if it has to be so entrenched? Ffs we weren't discussing Natalie Bennett who won't be Green Party leader by the end of the month anyway.

Thing is, if we'd been discussing Owen Smith, or indeed any current prominent Labour MP, my response would probably have been similar. Which leaves me feeling pretty despondent. Long term obviously I want a Green Government, but in the meantime I at least want the official opposition opposing effectively. Which no doubt is a statement we can all agree on!

On a personal level, I am seriously considering moving to Swansea. So does anyone have any advice on what Swansea is like as a place to live?

Meanwhile, I'm going to make a coffee, watch Andy Murray, and hopefully forget my woes for awhile.

[Temulkar]

Greetings all,

I have been reading but not commenting because I don't feel I have anything useful to add at the moment. Well, partly that and partly due to personal concerns.

@Willow - I think I get what you are saying. I think I'd express it as MPs need to work towards solutions that have at least some level of acceptance for everyone [or as near as damn it]. As you say, some degree of consensus.

Although not a Labour party member, my youngest son is very pro Corbyn and commented to me earlier today that it looks like Corbyn will be re elected leader. I just said it looks that way at which point he stated I didn't sound very happy about it. I started to explain that firstly I'm not sure Corbyn will appeal to the wider electorate, and I got no further. Immediately he fires back "what and you think Natalie Bennett will"? At which point I just felt oh what's the point of even trying to discuss it if it has to be so entrenched? Ffs we weren't discussing Natalie Bennett who won't be Green Party leader by the end of the month anyway.

Thing is, if we'd been discussing Owen Smith, or indeed any current prominent Labour MP, my response would probably have been similar. Which leaves me feeling pretty despondent. Long term obviously I want a Green Government, but in the meantime I at least want the official opposition opposing effectively. Which no doubt is a statement we can all agree on!

On a personal level, I am seriously considering moving to Swansea. So does anyone have any advice on what Swansea is like as a place to live?

Meanwhile, I'm going to make a coffee, watch Andy Murray, and hopefully forget my woes for awhile.

Depends where in Swansea you are moving to? There's a few of us from that neck of the woods, though. You have stunning beaches down the Gower, and loads of redevelopment of the docks andold industrial quarter. I probably wouldnt live in swansea again, but I love the villages outside it.

[yahyah]

Thanks for your honesty Tizme.
I just hope no one calls you a Blairite neolib elitist, hung up on winning elections, for daring to think it might be a good idea for a Labour leader to be able to appeal to a wider group than his own supporters.


Hope you don't fall out with your son over it.
At least with FTN we can log off when it gets too heated. Not easy when you live in the same house.

[Temulkar]

Tiz, I saw an off grid smallholding with capacity for wind, solar, and micro hydro with mature fruit orchard and about an acre for poly tunnels - 2 bedrooms and right next door to the hippies in Tipi Valley - a bit remote but not that remote. Going for??? £145k

[PorFavor]

Greetings all,

I have been reading but not commenting because I don't feel I have anything useful to add at the moment. Well, partly that and partly due to personal concerns.

@Willow - I think I get what you are saying. I think I'd express it as MPs need to work towards solutions that have at least some level of acceptance for everyone [or as near as damn it]. As you say, some degree of consensus.

Although not a Labour party member, my youngest son is very pro Corbyn and commented to me earlier today that it looks like Corbyn will be re elected leader. I just said it looks that way at which point he stated I didn't sound very happy about it. I started to explain that firstly I'm not sure Corbyn will appeal to the wider electorate, and I got no further. Immediately he fires back "what and you think Natalie Bennett will"? At which point I just felt oh what's the point of even trying to discuss it if it has to be so entrenched? Ffs we weren't discussing Natalie Bennett who won't be Green Party leader by the end of the month anyway.

Thing is, if we'd been discussing Owen Smith, or indeed any current prominent Labour MP, my response would probably have been similar. Which leaves me feeling pretty despondent. Long term obviously I want a Green Government, but in the meantime I at least want the official opposition opposing effectively. Which no doubt is a statement we can all agree on!

On a personal level, I am seriously considering moving to Swansea. So does anyone have any advice on what Swansea is like as a place to live?

Meanwhile, I'm going to make a coffee, watch Andy Murray, and hopefully forget my woes for awhile.

Odd that - I've been seriously mulling over a move to Wales. I can't do anything along the lines of Temulkar's suggestion (attractive though it sounds) on account of me elf, though. A bungalow would suit me very nicely.

Hope you haven't had a falling out with your son.

And yes - being able to offer something attractive to (almost) everyone is important for a party's success. Inevitably, those things are often going to be in different areas of policy.

Is it tomorrow that the Green Party's conference kicks off?




Edited for stuff and to add final question

Edited again - more stuff

[howsillyofme1]

Thanks for your honesty Tizme.
I just hope no one calls you a Blairite neolib elitist, hung up on winning elections, for daring to think it might be a good idea for a Labour leader to be able to appeal to a wider group than his own supporters.


Hope you don't fall out with your son over it.
At least with FTN we can log off when it gets too heated. Not easy when you live in the same house.

I for one won't, but then people are also quite happy to call the other side 'cultists'

Continually posting these snide comments suggesting only one side has descended into unnecessary insults and intransegence is not condusive to bring back some of the departed members of the board!

edited for typos

[citizenJA]

@Tizme1
I'm very moved by your post and thank you for writing it.

[PorFavor]

@RogerOThornhill

You're not still insetting, I trust. Hope it went well.


Edited to add -

I've just checked the cast list. You're not there.

[Tizme1]

Greetings all,

I have been reading but not commenting because I don't feel I have anything useful to add at the moment. Well, partly that and partly due to personal concerns.

@Willow - I think I get what you are saying. I think I'd express it as MPs need to work towards solutions that have at least some level of acceptance for everyone [or as near as damn it]. As you say, some degree of consensus.

Although not a Labour party member, my youngest son is very pro Corbyn and commented to me earlier today that it looks like Corbyn will be re elected leader. I just said it looks that way at which point he stated I didn't sound very happy about it. I started to explain that firstly I'm not sure Corbyn will appeal to the wider electorate, and I got no further. Immediately he fires back "what and you think Natalie Bennett will"? At which point I just felt oh what's the point of even trying to discuss it if it has to be so entrenched? Ffs we weren't discussing Natalie Bennett who won't be Green Party leader by the end of the month anyway.

Thing is, if we'd been discussing Owen Smith, or indeed any current prominent Labour MP, my response would probably have been similar. Which leaves me feeling pretty despondent. Long term obviously I want a Green Government, but in the meantime I at least want the official opposition opposing effectively. Which no doubt is a statement we can all agree on!

On a personal level, I am seriously considering moving to Swansea. So does anyone have any advice on what Swansea is like as a place to live?

Meanwhile, I'm going to make a coffee, watch Andy Murray, and hopefully forget my woes for awhile.

Depends where in Swansea you are moving to? There's a few of us from that neck of the woods, though. You have stunning beaches down the Gower, and loads of redevelopment of the docks andold industrial quarter. I probably wouldnt live in swansea again, but I love the villages outside it.

Thanks Tem. I understand the Gower tends to be rather expensive. I've always been a 'townie' and in fact have lived within a short train journey of London all my life so this will be quite a huge move for me. Especially leaving family and friends behind. That said, I've always wanted to live by the sea and if I have to move then I'm damn well moving as close to the coast as possible. That along with the prices are part of the reason I'm attracted by Swansea [and the fact Wales isn't 'Tory']. I feel at the moment a city or large town will be easier for me to make the adjustment in.

My daughter has her own place so won't be coming with me. Especially now she and her b/f are planning their wedding. Eldest son will not be coming either. Youngest son also wants to stay here but that could change. That's kind of hard for me to adjust to as well and so I'm looking at places that would have enough room for them to at least come and stay frequently. I think what I'm grappling with is getting accustomed to these changes gradually.

The small holding sounds good but not sure if it's right for me at the moment because of all the above and also not sure how well I'd cope with it living on my own. All of which means I'm looking in Swansea itself. There's one particular place that is about a mile from the seafront and half a mile or so from the train station - something that is important as I'll need to travel regularly to Southend to visit my mother. In the Mount Pleasant area. I've only looked on line so far but intend to visit at the end of this month all being well.

[Tizme1]

Thanks for your honesty Tizme.
I just hope no one calls you a Blairite neolib elitist, hung up on winning elections, for daring to think it might be a good idea for a Labour leader to be able to appeal to a wider group than his own supporters.


Hope you don't fall out with your son over it.
At least with FTN we can log off when it gets too heated. Not easy when you live in the same house.

Thanks yahyah. I'm sure I've been called worse over the years.

I can see both sides of the argument. I do feel that Corbyn hasn't been given the help and support he should have had from the PLP. With a willingness on both sides, maybe progress could have been made but now both sides seem to be entrenched. Problem is there has been infighting in Labour for many a long year now and it seems to be getting worse to me. It does feel very much as though history is kind of repeating itself.

There is no point in being merely a party of protest and yet, there is no point in being in power if it's just to do much the same as the opposition with a bit of sugar coating. So where is the middle ground and how do Labour get there? What the hell everyone, vote Green and we can try something totally different. After all, without a planet none of the rest of it matters.

Son and I won't fall out. Closest we came was over the referendum. We had one or two heated discussions. In fact I swore at him during one of them - even though normally I don't swear in front of my children despite their all being adults now. Like most families, we all have each others backs.

[Tizme1]

Greetings all,

I have been reading but not commenting because I don't feel I have anything useful to add at the moment. Well, partly that and partly due to personal concerns.

@Willow - I think I get what you are saying. I think I'd express it as MPs need to work towards solutions that have at least some level of acceptance for everyone [or as near as damn it]. As you say, some degree of consensus.

Although not a Labour party member, my youngest son is very pro Corbyn and commented to me earlier today that it looks like Corbyn will be re elected leader. I just said it looks that way at which point he stated I didn't sound very happy about it. I started to explain that firstly I'm not sure Corbyn will appeal to the wider electorate, and I got no further. Immediately he fires back "what and you think Natalie Bennett will"? At which point I just felt oh what's the point of even trying to discuss it if it has to be so entrenched? Ffs we weren't discussing Natalie Bennett who won't be Green Party leader by the end of the month anyway.

Thing is, if we'd been discussing Owen Smith, or indeed any current prominent Labour MP, my response would probably have been similar. Which leaves me feeling pretty despondent. Long term obviously I want a Green Government, but in the meantime I at least want the official opposition opposing effectively. Which no doubt is a statement we can all agree on!

On a personal level, I am seriously considering moving to Swansea. So does anyone have any advice on what Swansea is like as a place to live?

Meanwhile, I'm going to make a coffee, watch Andy Murray, and hopefully forget my woes for awhile.

Odd that - I've been seriously mulling over a move to Wales. I can't do anything along the lines of Temulkar's suggestion (attractive though it sounds) on account of me elf, though. A bungalow would suit me very nicely.

Hope you haven't had a falling out with your son.

And yes - being able to offer something attractive to (almost) everyone is important for a party's success. Inevitably, those things are often going to be in different areas of policy.

Is it tomorrow that the Green Party's conference kicks off?




Edited for stuff and to add final question

Edited again - more stuff

Do it PF then we can all meet up and have 'instant friends'.

No son and I haven't and won't fall out. I understand why he feels as he does and no doubt at his age I was similarly clear cut about things. Yes the Green Party conference starts tomorrow.

[Tizme1]

Thanks for your honesty Tizme.
I just hope no one calls you a Blairite neolib elitist, hung up on winning elections, for daring to think it might be a good idea for a Labour leader to be able to appeal to a wider group than his own supporters.


Hope you don't fall out with your son over it.
At least with FTN we can log off when it gets too heated. Not easy when you live in the same house.

I for one won't, but then people are also quite happy to call the other side 'cultists'

Continually posting these snide comments suggesting only one side has descended into unnecessary insults and intransegence is not condusive to bring back some of the departed members of the board!

edited for typos

I think this entrenchment is part of the problem though isn't it howsilly? From my perspective I can see valid points on both 'sides' and also, bad behaviour on both 'sides'. When my children were little they naturally would squabble at times and I'd get the 's/he started it' nonsense. Sometimes it was so silly and petty that I'd just say "I don't care, I'm finishing it - end of". Perhaps that's what us Greens should be saying to both 'sides'. See - another reason to vote Green.