Thursday 1st September 2016
Posted: Thu 01 Sep, 2016 7:12 am
Morning all.
It's clear from this article that standard letters are being sent out that don't really properly set out why people have been barred or suspended. It reflects badly on Labour but in a strange way has made me more sympathetic to Ukip. Ukip are often accused of allowing awful people in the party, with their social media used to expose them, but Labour's experience is showing how impossible it is to police member's social media usage fairly. Is there really grounds to trawl long standing members social media other than in response to a direct complaint? Indeed, have there been direct complaints in these cases? We don't know. As for new members, there does seem to be a case to use social media to ensure people share Labour's values and this is why I'm against the registered supporter idea. It has become clear that it's impossible to vet so many people all at once in a way that's fair and effective. There really should be a few months probation before any new member is allowed a vote in anything. It would seriously reduce tensions between long-standing and new members, I think.A Somerset Labour Party member in her 80s has been thrown out of the party for a single Twitter retweet made almost a year ago.
And another Somerset party member has been barred from voting in the leadership election after being accused of making an abusive post on social media.
I agree. It exposes the problem of relying on social media campaigning. Nothing is double checked to quite the same standards as it would be if it was being sent to the printers to be made into leaflets (although standards are slipping there, too). There's a meme circulating Twitter at the moment that Labour is the biggest party in Europe. I don't think this is strictly factually correct and thus just makes me doubt the veracity of everything else that comes from the same people. It helps no one in the end.RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all. A brief visit before I hop off to school for the morning.
My local paper is reporting that Redbridge Momentum had to apologise to Mike Gapes over their claim that he voted in favour of the bedroom tax.
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Too many of these slurs flying around.
It'll be embedded in thousands of Facebook pages and other social media things, so will probably get repeated despite the apology. Whatever one thinks of Gapes lies and misinformation do Corbyn no favours.RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all. A brief visit before I hop off to school for the morning.
My local paper is reporting that Redbridge Momentum had to apologise to Mike Gapes over their claim that he voted in favour of the bedroom tax.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Too many of these slurs flying around.
Too many familiar and well liked people not around or rarely posting, no matter their left/right leaning, my son has a theory, we ought to just get rid of those terms, save a lot of squabbling. You are right about all the internet stuff it is everywhere infesting everything and peoples minds too, and they have been well indoctrinated to trust nothing, the media has seen to that. As to the people who are working through Labours lists my guess is that work will largely be done by students or young people, and they are not being briefed well or held to account. Older fingers are slower and its a lot to do, I would abandon the process in itsentirety because I believe that itwill only be a small % who are real. trouble, the rest are genuine returners. Let them vote, the entire membership, this kind of purging should not be held, a d if people do start showing overt disloyalty as such types inevitably do pick them off one at a time, for a proper breach of the rules. They would have culled me over green leaning posts if I had joined, which I did actually do before the GE, but they were hopeless then and did not confirm, and after we lost I just couldn't be bothered.yahyah wrote:@seeingclearly
Labour leadership rancour happened to this place. The same issues that have always divided it.
And Scotland, which has culminated in the current mess. A referendum which should never have happened because it was offered for the wrong reasons, i.e. to break our political system.StephenDolan wrote:Morning all. I was thinking earlier about tiny margins.
Florida's voting on Gore v Bush.
Corbyn getting on the ballot at the last minute.
Yitzhak Rabin assassination attempt.
Brexit vote.
StephenDolan wrote:Morning all. I was thinking earlier about tiny margins.
Florida's voting on Gore v Bush.
Corbyn getting on the ballot at the last minute.
Yitzhak Rabin assassination attempt.
Brexit vote.
I suppose the thing about JK Rowling is that people seem to take notice of what she says, even if they don't agree with her. She does care deeply that Labour is electable, because she remembers being at the bottom of society's heap during John Major's time. The current Tory regime seems worse if anything.StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.
Popular author expresses preference for a leadership candidate.
Definitely worth an article or two according to the G. And here's me thinking Watt leaving would cut down on this crap.
Other minor news :-
Doctors strike planned, Hinkley point, pensions shortfall, EU referendum debate was pitiful.
There is and always has been.Willow904 wrote:http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/somerset- ... story.html
It's clear from this article that standard letters are being sent out that don't really properly set out why people have been barred or suspended. It reflects badly on Labour but in a strange way has made me more sympathetic to Ukip. Ukip are often accused of allowing awful people in the party, with their social media used to expose them, but Labour's experience is showing how impossible it is to police member's social media usage fairly. Is there really grounds to trawl long standing members social media other than in response to a direct complaint? Indeed, have there been direct complaints in these cases? We don't know. As for new members, there does seem to be a case to use social media to ensure people share Labour's values and this is why I'm against the registered supporter idea. It has become clear that it's impossible to vet so many people all at once in a way that's fair and effective. There really should be a few months probation before any new member is allowed a vote in anything. It would seriously reduce tensions between long-standing and new members, I think.A Somerset Labour Party member in her 80s has been thrown out of the party for a single Twitter retweet made almost a year ago.
And another Somerset party member has been barred from voting in the leadership election after being accused of making an abusive post on social media.
Indeed. Perhaps Tom Watson should read the deputy leaders speech from conference last year, he might pick up a few tips. Hang on...AnatolyKasparov wrote:There is and always has been.Willow904 wrote:http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/somerset- ... story.html
It's clear from this article that standard letters are being sent out that don't really properly set out why people have been barred or suspended. It reflects badly on Labour but in a strange way has made me more sympathetic to Ukip. Ukip are often accused of allowing awful people in the party, with their social media used to expose them, but Labour's experience is showing how impossible it is to police member's social media usage fairly. Is there really grounds to trawl long standing members social media other than in response to a direct complaint? Indeed, have there been direct complaints in these cases? We don't know. As for new members, there does seem to be a case to use social media to ensure people share Labour's values and this is why I'm against the registered supporter idea. It has become clear that it's impossible to vet so many people all at once in a way that's fair and effective. There really should be a few months probation before any new member is allowed a vote in anything. It would seriously reduce tensions between long-standing and new members, I think.A Somerset Labour Party member in her 80s has been thrown out of the party for a single Twitter retweet made almost a year ago.
And another Somerset party member has been barred from voting in the leadership election after being accused of making an abusive post on social media.
IMO the problem is that too many people in the party machine have been conditioned to believe stupid memes about "entryism" (thanks Tom Watson, inter alia)
Instead of seeing a high (and active) membership as an intrinsically good thing.
I can see why you were nervous of trying to explain this yourself! I tried to point out the issues with direct democracy (or "mob rule" - a phrase that didn't go down very well!) on CIF and got jumped on by almost everybody, even though, to me, the dangers and problems seem pretty obvious and are at least worth debating. Democracy shouldn't be 51% of people imposing what is anathema to the other 49% of the people. I think this was particularly forgotten by governments preceding the Brexit vote which neglected to ensure they took the country with them on EU related decisions. Because we were already in the EU and pro-EU representatives held power, the wishes of those who weren't supportive of the EU were completely ignored. More should have been done to make the case for the EU all along to create greater consensus and would have been if we didn't subscribe to this simple idea of democracy being a case of those who can put together a majority can do whatever they want and everyone else has to lump it. There was a time when it was recognized that politicians had a public duty to serve the interests of all, not just those who elected them. Trying to please everyone has become synonymous with negativity, an accusation thrown at politicians perceived to be shallow and unprincipled, yet when looked at from an alternative viewpoint, isn't trying to please everyone exactly what a politician should aspire to?tinybgoat wrote:StephenDolan wrote:Morning all. I was thinking earlier about tiny margins.
Florida's voting on Gore v Bush.
Corbyn getting on the ballot at the last minute.
Yitzhak Rabin assassination attempt.
Brexit vote.
I was going to suggest that we should have a kind of "hysteresis boundary", but then wasn't sure i'd explain it well enough so found this on t'internet:
https://m.reddit.com/r/electionreform/c ... is_voting/
My understanding of it would be that for something like Brexit, the vote results in a change of state, so should require a reasonable majority for this too happen, say 15%, otherwise it's just down to churn, you could repeat the vote every 6 months getting a different result each time. Making a major change on a marginal result just causes unnecessary upheaval.
Except there isn't - registered supporters get to vote in arguably the most important vote, for the leadership, without even being members at all, let alone members of some months' standing. Which is why I feel Labour need to get rid of it.AnatolyKasparov wrote:There is and always has been.Willow904 wrote:http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/somerset- ... story.html
It's clear from this article that standard letters are being sent out that don't really properly set out why people have been barred or suspended. It reflects badly on Labour but in a strange way has made me more sympathetic to Ukip. Ukip are often accused of allowing awful people in the party, with their social media used to expose them, but Labour's experience is showing how impossible it is to police member's social media usage fairly. Is there really grounds to trawl long standing members social media other than in response to a direct complaint? Indeed, have there been direct complaints in these cases? We don't know. As for new members, there does seem to be a case to use social media to ensure people share Labour's values and this is why I'm against the registered supporter idea. It has become clear that it's impossible to vet so many people all at once in a way that's fair and effective. There really should be a few months probation before any new member is allowed a vote in anything. It would seriously reduce tensions between long-standing and new members, I think.A Somerset Labour Party member in her 80s has been thrown out of the party for a single Twitter retweet made almost a year ago.
And another Somerset party member has been barred from voting in the leadership election after being accused of making an abusive post on social media.
IMO the problem is that too many people in the party machine have been conditioned to believe stupid memes about "entryism" (thanks Tom Watson, inter alia)
Instead of seeing a high (and active) membership as an intrinsically good thing.
This is essentially what worries me at the end of the day. Can anyone point to something concrete Corbyn has achieved in practical terms on the ground, so to speak? I'm not talking about presurising someone else to do something through rallies and protests, but something that shows he's applied practical solutions successfully himself. Has he introduced and seen through a private members bill, for instance? My previous Labour MP, Dan Norris, was a backbencher like Corbyn but was able to bring in and successfully roll out "Sarah's Law" to help protect children from paedophiles. Has Corbyn ever done anything like this? Or maybe there's some experience from before he was a backbencher. I guess my experience of positive, successful politics is that most things seem to be achieved by those that get on and quietly do stuff, rather than those who jump up and down moaning saying "something must be done". It could really help me get on board with Corbyn if people could highlight the things he's "quietly done". I agree with Ed Balls on the dangers of thinking there are simple solutions but am open to being convinced Corbyn doesn't belong in this category, if only because if he does it's too depressing to contemplate really.He was also asked to explain the claim in his memoir, Speaking Out, that Corbyn indulges in “leftist utopian fantasy”. Balls told Today”
I was making a broader point than just about Jeremy. I was talking about what we are seeing in America in Bernie Sanders, and with Donald Trump - an issue of left and right - and saying it is a complex, difficult world, in which populations are angry, incomes have not risen, people are worried about identity, the globalisation of labour, and there is a tendency for some to peddle a simple solution and say ‘We can just solve the problem, it’s all the fault of the bankers, or immigrants, or a neoliberal conspiracy, or welfare scroungers’. And I don’t think that’s enough.
One to keep an eye on.Theresa May will take her message that Britain is “open for business” to China at the weekend, but she may receive a frosty reception because of her decision to delay the decision to go ahead with the new Hinkley Point power station, in which China has a large stake. The future of the project is still under review.
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well, I can understand disagreeing with the "registered supporters" thing as a concept.
Let's just not forget which wing of the party originally pushed it
Sort of worked, though, didn't it? It allowed a marginal wing of the party engineer a majority over the soft left that's dominated over the last few years - it was just the wrong marginal wing, from their perspective.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well, I can understand disagreeing with the "registered supporters" thing as a concept.
Let's just not forget which wing of the party originally pushed it
Willow904 wrote:This is essentially what worries me at the end of the day. Can anyone point to something concrete Corbyn has achieved in practical terms on the ground, so to speak? I'm not talking about presurising someone else to do something through rallies and protests, but something that shows he's applied practical solutions successfully himself. Has he introduced and seen through a private members bill, for instance? My previous Labour MP, Dan Norris, was a backbencher like Corbyn but was able to bring in and successfully roll out "Sarah's Law" to help protect children from paedophiles. Has Corbyn ever done anything like this? Or maybe there's some experience from before he was a backbencher. I guess my experience of positive, successful politics is that most things seem to be achieved by those that get on and quietly do stuff, rather than those who jump up and down moaning saying "something must be done". It could really help me get on board with Corbyn if people could highlight the things he's "quietly Corbyndone". I agree with Ed Balls on the dangers of thinking there are simple solutions but am open to being convinced Corbyn doesn't belong in this category, if only because if he does it's too depressing to contemplate.He was also asked to explain the claim in his memoir, Speaking Out, that Corbyn indulges in “leftist utopian fantasy”. Balls told Today”
I was making a broader point than just about Jeremy. I was talking about what we are seeing in America in Bernie Sanders, and with Donald Trump - an issue of left and right - and saying it is a complex, difficult world, in which populations are angry, incomes have not risen, people are worried about identity, the globalisation of labour, and there is a tendency for some to peddle a simple solution and say ‘We can just solve the problem, it’s all the fault of the bankers, or immigrants, or a neoliberal conspiracy, or welfare scroungers’. And I don’t think that’s enough.
Edited to add the above quote is from the G live blog.
Corbyn "campaigns". Livingstone "does".The above sentence just confirms my impression really. The left put up the wrong candidate, in essence. I know they didn't expect to win, but they've got themselves in quite a hole as a result. If Corbyn resigns, they fear a better left candidate wouldn't get on the ballot, but how can someone so unsuited to the job who has lost the confidence of the vast majority of Labour MPs continue? Corbyn is clearly a very effective campaigner, I just can't see him ever making an effective leader, let alone PM and if too many people form that impression Labour will lose votes. Perhaps it doesn't make much difference at the moment, with the Tories comfortably ensconced for the next 4 years, but it will have to be faced up to eventually.He ran the London Labour Briefing newspaper, which helped propel Ken Livingstone to power on the Greater London Council.
Depressing as hell. I feel sick inside, no hyperbole. I hadn't thought I'd feel like this.How should Theresa May deliver Brexit? – live debate
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I really, really hope not.Willow904 wrote:Trying to please everyone has become synonymous with negativity, an accusation thrown at politicians perceived to be shallow and unprincipled, yet when looked at from an alternative viewpoint, isn't trying to please everyone exactly what a politician should aspire to?
Is it time for the two minute hate again?SpinningHugo wrote:Not true in the footage available on youtube, but not impossible I suppose
https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton/je ... rkZJ9B6jZn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(my bold)"Five years ago, amid the huge controversy surrounding the Health and Social Care Act, one proposal received a cautious
welcome: the transfer of responsibility for public health from the NHS to local authorities. It was felt that local authorities
could make a greater difference to the health and well being of their communities if the right expertise, powers and funding
were based there rather than within a health service more focused on treatment than prevention of disease."
- Public health is in crisis – and Theresa May is failing to act
Dr. Sarah Wollaston
Tory MP for Totnes
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-82342675" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Depends where in Swansea you are moving to? There's a few of us from that neck of the woods, though. You have stunning beaches down the Gower, and loads of redevelopment of the docks andold industrial quarter. I probably wouldnt live in swansea again, but I love the villages outside it.Tizme1 wrote:Greetings all,
I have been reading but not commenting because I don't feel I have anything useful to add at the moment. Well, partly that and partly due to personal concerns.
@Willow - I think I get what you are saying. I think I'd express it as MPs need to work towards solutions that have at least some level of acceptance for everyone [or as near as damn it]. As you say, some degree of consensus.
Although not a Labour party member, my youngest son is very pro Corbyn and commented to me earlier today that it looks like Corbyn will be re elected leader. I just said it looks that way at which point he stated I didn't sound very happy about it. I started to explain that firstly I'm not sure Corbyn will appeal to the wider electorate, and I got no further. Immediately he fires back "what and you think Natalie Bennett will"? At which point I just felt oh what's the point of even trying to discuss it if it has to be so entrenched? Ffs we weren't discussing Natalie Bennett who won't be Green Party leader by the end of the month anyway.
Thing is, if we'd been discussing Owen Smith, or indeed any current prominent Labour MP, my response would probably have been similar. Which leaves me feeling pretty despondent. Long term obviously I want a Green Government, but in the meantime I at least want the official opposition opposing effectively. Which no doubt is a statement we can all agree on!
On a personal level, I am seriously considering moving to Swansea. So does anyone have any advice on what Swansea is like as a place to live?
Meanwhile, I'm going to make a coffee, watch Andy Murray, and hopefully forget my woes for awhile.
Tizme1 wrote:Greetings all,
I have been reading but not commenting because I don't feel I have anything useful to add at the moment. Well, partly that and partly due to personal concerns.
@Willow - I think I get what you are saying. I think I'd express it as MPs need to work towards solutions that have at least some level of acceptance for everyone [or as near as damn it]. As you say, some degree of consensus.
Although not a Labour party member, my youngest son is very pro Corbyn and commented to me earlier today that it looks like Corbyn will be re elected leader. I just said it looks that way at which point he stated I didn't sound very happy about it. I started to explain that firstly I'm not sure Corbyn will appeal to the wider electorate, and I got no further. Immediately he fires back "what and you think Natalie Bennett will"? At which point I just felt oh what's the point of even trying to discuss it if it has to be so entrenched? Ffs we weren't discussing Natalie Bennett who won't be Green Party leader by the end of the month anyway.
Thing is, if we'd been discussing Owen Smith, or indeed any current prominent Labour MP, my response would probably have been similar. Which leaves me feeling pretty despondent. Long term obviously I want a Green Government, but in the meantime I at least want the official opposition opposing effectively. Which no doubt is a statement we can all agree on!
On a personal level, I am seriously considering moving to Swansea. So does anyone have any advice on what Swansea is like as a place to live?
Meanwhile, I'm going to make a coffee, watch Andy Murray, and hopefully forget my woes for awhile.
yahyah wrote:Thanks for your honesty Tizme.
I just hope no one calls you a Blairite neolib elitist, hung up on winning elections, for daring to think it might be a good idea for a Labour leader to be able to appeal to a wider group than his own supporters.
Hope you don't fall out with your son over it.
At least with FTN we can log off when it gets too heated. Not easy when you live in the same house.
Thanks Tem. I understand the Gower tends to be rather expensive. I've always been a 'townie' and in fact have lived within a short train journey of London all my life so this will be quite a huge move for me. Especially leaving family and friends behind. That said, I've always wanted to live by the sea and if I have to move then I'm damn well moving as close to the coast as possible. That along with the prices are part of the reason I'm attracted by Swansea [and the fact Wales isn't 'Tory']. I feel at the moment a city or large town will be easier for me to make the adjustment in.Temulkar wrote:Depends where in Swansea you are moving to? There's a few of us from that neck of the woods, though. You have stunning beaches down the Gower, and loads of redevelopment of the docks andold industrial quarter. I probably wouldnt live in swansea again, but I love the villages outside it.Tizme1 wrote:Greetings all,
I have been reading but not commenting because I don't feel I have anything useful to add at the moment. Well, partly that and partly due to personal concerns.
@Willow - I think I get what you are saying. I think I'd express it as MPs need to work towards solutions that have at least some level of acceptance for everyone [or as near as damn it]. As you say, some degree of consensus.
Although not a Labour party member, my youngest son is very pro Corbyn and commented to me earlier today that it looks like Corbyn will be re elected leader. I just said it looks that way at which point he stated I didn't sound very happy about it. I started to explain that firstly I'm not sure Corbyn will appeal to the wider electorate, and I got no further. Immediately he fires back "what and you think Natalie Bennett will"? At which point I just felt oh what's the point of even trying to discuss it if it has to be so entrenched? Ffs we weren't discussing Natalie Bennett who won't be Green Party leader by the end of the month anyway.
Thing is, if we'd been discussing Owen Smith, or indeed any current prominent Labour MP, my response would probably have been similar. Which leaves me feeling pretty despondent. Long term obviously I want a Green Government, but in the meantime I at least want the official opposition opposing effectively. Which no doubt is a statement we can all agree on!
On a personal level, I am seriously considering moving to Swansea. So does anyone have any advice on what Swansea is like as a place to live?
Meanwhile, I'm going to make a coffee, watch Andy Murray, and hopefully forget my woes for awhile.
Thanks yahyah. I'm sure I've been called worse over the years.yahyah wrote:Thanks for your honesty Tizme.
I just hope no one calls you a Blairite neolib elitist, hung up on winning elections, for daring to think it might be a good idea for a Labour leader to be able to appeal to a wider group than his own supporters.
Hope you don't fall out with your son over it.
At least with FTN we can log off when it gets too heated. Not easy when you live in the same house.
Do it PF then we can all meet up and have 'instant friends'.PorFavor wrote:Tizme1 wrote:Greetings all,
I have been reading but not commenting because I don't feel I have anything useful to add at the moment. Well, partly that and partly due to personal concerns.
@Willow - I think I get what you are saying. I think I'd express it as MPs need to work towards solutions that have at least some level of acceptance for everyone [or as near as damn it]. As you say, some degree of consensus.
Although not a Labour party member, my youngest son is very pro Corbyn and commented to me earlier today that it looks like Corbyn will be re elected leader. I just said it looks that way at which point he stated I didn't sound very happy about it. I started to explain that firstly I'm not sure Corbyn will appeal to the wider electorate, and I got no further. Immediately he fires back "what and you think Natalie Bennett will"? At which point I just felt oh what's the point of even trying to discuss it if it has to be so entrenched? Ffs we weren't discussing Natalie Bennett who won't be Green Party leader by the end of the month anyway.
Thing is, if we'd been discussing Owen Smith, or indeed any current prominent Labour MP, my response would probably have been similar. Which leaves me feeling pretty despondent. Long term obviously I want a Green Government, but in the meantime I at least want the official opposition opposing effectively. Which no doubt is a statement we can all agree on!
On a personal level, I am seriously considering moving to Swansea. So does anyone have any advice on what Swansea is like as a place to live?
Meanwhile, I'm going to make a coffee, watch Andy Murray, and hopefully forget my woes for awhile.
Odd that - I've been seriously mulling over a move to Wales. I can't do anything along the lines of Temulkar's suggestion (attractive though it sounds) on account of me elf, though. A bungalow would suit me very nicely.
Hope you haven't had a falling out with your son.
And yes - being able to offer something attractive to (almost) everyone is important for a party's success. Inevitably, those things are often going to be in different areas of policy.
Is it tomorrow that the Green Party's conference kicks off?
Edited for stuff and to add final question
Edited again - more stuff
I think this entrenchment is part of the problem though isn't it howsilly? From my perspective I can see valid points on both 'sides' and also, bad behaviour on both 'sides'. When my children were little they naturally would squabble at times and I'd get the 's/he started it' nonsense. Sometimes it was so silly and petty that I'd just say "I don't care, I'm finishing it - end of". Perhaps that's what us Greens should be saying to both 'sides'. See - another reason to vote Green.howsillyofme1 wrote:yahyah wrote:Thanks for your honesty Tizme.
I just hope no one calls you a Blairite neolib elitist, hung up on winning elections, for daring to think it might be a good idea for a Labour leader to be able to appeal to a wider group than his own supporters.
Hope you don't fall out with your son over it.
At least with FTN we can log off when it gets too heated. Not easy when you live in the same house.
I for one won't, but then people are also quite happy to call the other side 'cultists'
Continually posting these snide comments suggesting only one side has descended into unnecessary insults and intransegence is not condusive to bring back some of the departed members of the board!
edited for typos