Friday 2nd September 2016

[Willow904]

It is all about hegemony, and protecting the status quo. Our politicAl parties do not exist on equal ground, but the majority of people think they do. In fact your assessment rings very true, the ignorance encourage allows Ll these things to happen.In which case an educating campaigning energised and committed Labour might be exactly what we need.

What we need is an objective, unbiased press. With Leveson and Ed I thought there was half a chance. 2015 was a pivotal GE and I suspect we'll never know just how much money the Tories spent and now many rules they bent to swing it.

[refitman]

Apologies if I'm a bit tetchy today and yesterday.

One of our cats made an unexpected final journey to the vets this morning having gone downhill rapidly from Wednesday.

So not in a good mood I'm afraid.

Sorry to hear about the cat TRG.

[seeingclearly]

That is utter rubbish , Hugo, its the paper pattern we were brought up with during the cold war era when Russia and eastern europe and china had no place names on our atlases. Thhank goodness things have changed, we dont ever need to return to that, it is exactly the hegemony that is mentioned. Thank goodness people did reach past it. Otherwise people in devasted places really feel that no one at all cares.

[Temulkar]

Is raising human rights on Iranian TV for £20k, worse than shutting down a high level bribery and corruption scandal for the Saudis? And benefitting rather nicely from deals with the Saudis after leaving office?

There is no evidence at all that he did that. Go watch the extracts on youtube, there are plenty of them. Iran is never discussed. Human rights doesn't come up. It is all about Israel, Iraq and the duplicitous actions of the US.

Corbyn seems to me to be so sure of his own righteousness that when he is caught out, as with telling untruths about the lack of any seats on a train, he can't fess up. So he digs himself in deeper.

The rest is the usual whataboutery.

Blair defends dropping Saudi Arms inquiry BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6182125.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Our relationship with Saudi Arabia is vitally important for our country in terms of counter-terrorism, in terms of the broader Middle East, in terms of helping in respect of Israel and Palestine. That strategic interest comes first."

Tony Blair to the Attorney General - "Any proposal that the investigation be resolved by parties pleading guilty to certain charges would be unlikely to reduce the offence caused to the Saudi Royal Family, even if the deal were accepted, and the process would still drag out for a considerable period".

The Times - "ministers 'buckled' to 'blatant threats' that Saudi cooperation in the fight against terror would end unless the ...investigation was dropped."

Independent - Court condemns Blair for halting Saudi Arms inquiry http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 07793.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you want more?

And, let's not forget that those Eurofighters are now being used to bomb children in the Yemen with even more illegal weapons sold by British companies.

What was that you were saying about Iranian TV and Corbyn being unfit to lead? It is not whataboutery to point out both the rank hypocrisy of your claims, but also the factual inaccuracy of your statements.

[howsillyofme1]

It is all about hegemony, and protecting the status quo. Our politicAl parties do not exist on equal ground, but the majority of people think they do. In fact your assessment rings very true, the ignorance encourage allows Ll these things to happen.In which case an educating campaigning energised and committed Labour might be exactly what we need.

What we need is an objective, unbiased press. With Leveson and Ed I thought there was half a chance. 2015 was a pivotal GE and I suspect we'll never know just how much money the Tories spent and now many rules they bent to swing it.

Indeed cannot argue with that....probably makes all this argument about who is the best leader pretty superfluous as any that is prepared to stand up to the press will be ground into the dirt like Miliband was

I still think that is what did for him, his eagerness to see the press held to account for their actions, and also his probable overhaul of media ownership rules

?Free Press' is one of the biggest lies of the age....it is free only in the extent it is not controlled directly by Government but when the Tories are in power it might as well be!

[citizenJA]

Yahyah and I are like sisters, we've known each other a long time, just as I know and love many other friends here, those friends know their names. I can't stop loving you because of political disagreements. You're like family to me. It's not that way for everyone. We won't feel the same about everyone - that's perfectly fine.

[seeingclearly]

It is all about hegemony, and protecting the status quo. Our politicAl parties do not exist on equal ground, but the majority of people think they do. In fact your assessment rings very true, the ignorance encourage allows Ll these things to happen.In which case an educating campaigning energised and committed Labour might be exactly what we need.

What we need is an objective, unbiased press. With Leveson and Ed I thought there was half a chance. 2015 was a pivotal GE and I suspect we'll never know just how much money the Tories spent and now many rules they bent to swing it.

It is like wishing for the moon! We are in fact after a little over a hundred years at the point of having to start again. Thats the reality. Don't allow the distractions, or get booted off course by events, because if it has to be rebuilt thats what has to be done. Leveson came before the true horror started to emerge.

When you are being looked after by many caring people on bad contracts and minimum wage a other such horrors you learn quite a lot about the extent of stuff, its a good teacher, and because you are receiving great kindness you become a good listener.

I was reading and catching up on disability issues earlier. Thousands dead. Which some of us knew would and did happen. and tbf still is happening. and theres lots more to come of all sorts, for nearly everyone.

I remember in the early days people really were sceptical, and about the NHS. I have just lived the reality. Its the people who matter.

[seeingclearly]

I have long wished for Labour and Greens to work together, Tem.

[ChrisDean]

I also wish Labour and Greens would work more closely together.

Whilst I've voted Labour in the past 2 GE's, I've voted Green at local level because I am opposed to project which will see the devastation of a


















And now for some rugby!

The season begins with Glawster v Leicester.

Kick-off imminent.

[ChrisDean]

Oh dear, what happened there!

Ne're mind.

[seeingclearly]

I mean, why are we fighting each other?

Is it because it gives us something to fight when people like IDS Cameron and Osbourne slip into the shadows?

isnt there a much bigger fight that desperately needs fighting. It is this that I object to Hugo undermining.

It is unprecedented the Labour infighting too, in any other era it simply would not have happened this way, and it is clear that happened to protect exactly that hegemony that even some in Parliament really don't understand except in the way it has been sold to them. They are busy doing what the tories want them to do. Even the language comes from them. How many more leaders of ours would they send on their way? And how long is it going to take for people to really cotton on. I refer you to the post about finishing off Thatchers work.

[PorFavor]

I also wish Labour and Greens would work more closely together.

Whilst I've voted Labour in the past 2 GE's, I've voted Green at local level because I am opposed to project which will see the devastation of a


















.

Wide open space? I do like a nice game of charades . . . .

[howsillyofme1]

wow PF and Chris, that is probably one of the most constructive things posted on here for while....

(only joking, as always there have been some really good posts on here today!, as well as some not so great)

[refitman]

I notice that the Graun seems to have turned against the junior doctors. Apart from Toynbee and and piece by Diane Abbott, all the articles have been very critical.

[PorFavor]

I notice that the Graun seems to have turned against the junior doctors. Apart from Toynbee and and piece by Diane Abbott, all the articles have been very critical.

Yes - well, they're keeping in with the big-wigs (as usual).

[howsillyofme1]

I notice that the Graun seems to have turned against the junior doctors. Apart from Toynbee and and piece by Diane Abbott, all the articles have been very critical.

No surprises, it was bound to happen

The standing up for rights in no longer acceptable, we just have to do what the great and the good want us to....

We are now living in an oligarchy - will be interesting if anyone ever does a map of all the interconnections between politics, the media, the law and the quangos.....did it with the rock groups a few years ago....wonder who will be the John Mayall's Bluesbreakers of the Establishment....Policy Exchange perhaps?

edited for typos

[seeingclearly]

I notice that the Graun seems to have turned against the junior doctors. Apart from Toynbee and and piece by Diane Abbott, all the articles have been very critical.

The Graun would. Shocking but not unexpected. Working conditions are really bad now in the NHS, set to get worse and they are fighting this for all the workers.

[PorFavor]

Clegg: Osborne casually cut welfare for poorest to boost Tory popularity

In a candid interview looking back on his five years as deputy prime minister in the Tory-Lib Dem coalition, Clegg said he found the behaviour of his senior Conservative partner “very unattractive, very cynical”. (Guardian)

Well, he hid that well. Must be in line for the Parliamentary equivalent of an Oscar.


Edited to add link -

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... popularity

(Although you'll have to wait until tomorrow for the full sob story, apparently.)

[tinybgoat]

Clegg: Osborne casually cut welfare for poorest to boost Tory popularity

In a candid interview looking back on his five years as deputy prime minister in the Tory-Lib Dem coalition, Clegg said he found the behaviour of his senior Conservative partner “very unattractive, very cynical”. (Guardian)

Well, he hid that well. Must be in line for the Parliamentary equivalent of an Oscar.


Edited to add link -

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... popularity

(Although you'll have to wait until tomorrow for the full sob story, apparently.)

How about parliamentary Golden Raspberries, instead?

[tinybgoat]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09 ... amatory-s/

Melania Trump sues Daily Mail for $150m over 'defamatory' stories interpreted as suggesting she had worked as an 'escort'

It goes on to say it's the Daily Mail Online's publisher that's being sued, so not sure how much of this would be borne by the UK paper.

[Tizme1]

@TRG Sorry to hear about the loss of your cat. I hope s/he didn't suffer too much.

[Tizme1]

Assuming it is a postal ballot, that does seem low yes. Certainly all Labour contests since individual voting was introduced in 1994 have been higher.

They were probably trying to save trees, so didn't vote.

*chuckle*

We're more ambitious than that Tinybg - online voting so we can save whole forests.

Greetings all btw.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Five local council by-elections this week:

Bournemouth - Tory hold, though they were run close by Labour who achieved a 5 per cent swing and came closer to winning here than at any time since they took one of the three seats in 2011 (the only time this century they have won anything here) whilst the Tories won the other two and made a clean sweep for the first time last year. On that occasion, the sole UKIP candidate was not far off winning a seat, but they dropped from close to 30 per cent on GE day to just under 20 per cent now. Still, that was better than the LibDems who took all three seats here in 2003 and 2007 - but have dropped off strikingly since and fell to a new low of 7% now, though that involved a rise from 5th and last on GE day to 4th now as the Greens (who finished just behind) dropped by more.

East Dorset DC/Dorset CC - this "double header" saw two Tory holds; the district two member seat (which had its first election on its present boundaries last year, but has traditionally been a very safe Tory area) had over 50% for the Tories, but saw a decent UKIP result as they increased their share on last year by over 6% to close to a third of the vote. LibDems a distant third, Labour fourth (neither stood in 2015, when Indies and Greens filled the gap) However, the county division - also a two member seat - was a rather different story; in 2013 UKIP had shocked the Tories by topping the poll here and taking one of the seats (after the Tories had easily won both in 2005 and 2009) but this time a swing of over 13% to the blues saw them triumph by close to two to one. LibDems stood after sitting three years ago out, and were rewarded with a fairly modest 7% - though that was still enough to beat Labour whose share halved.

Stockton-on-Tees - Tory gain from Labour with an increase of 15% to half the vote and a swing since last year of 10%. During the first election on these boundaries (2005) Labour and Tories shared a seat and then Tories won both in 2007 before Labour took them both in 2011 - but all these elections were close; which made it slightly surprising when Labour won fairly easily last year even during their GE disappointment (both locally and nationally) indeed this was one of a handful of councils where Labour managed to gain overall control, suggesting that a GE level turnout favours them in these parts (this is certainly not true of everywhere) Actually the Labour drop from then this time was relatively modest - about 5% - the Tories cleaned up due to cannibalising about 70% of the previous UKIP vote, which dropped to less than 4%. LibDems also edged down to less than 3%.

Cornwall - LibDem gain from UKIP, all the more notable given that they moved from not even standing here in 2013 (the first election with these boundaries) to triumphing with nearly 35% now - beating their nearest rival (an Independent, even more confusingly there was no Indy here last time either) by over two to one. Tories and Labour (who held a predecessor seat here back in the day) both dropped by a bit over 5%, the former finishing just ahead again, whilst the separatists Mebyon Kernow scored a respectable 13% - almost unchanged on last time. But the real story here was the total collapse of UKIP, down 23 per cent to less than 7% and from first three years ago to sixth and last now. They are now down to just a single seat on an authority where they performed very decently last time round.

Four contests next week.

[ChrisDean]

Sorry about the cock-up folks, mind in two places.

To clarify, can't support local Labour councillors because they've been hell bent on destroying part of our precious environment on what I regard as a vanity project and a childish will to settle old scores with the west of the Dean.

As for the rugby, cracking game with a first half of fast, free flowing rugby followed by a tense second half which ended in a win for Leicester.

[Tizme1]

@Tizme1

If you happen to be reading, I'd just like to thank you for taking the time to try to understand what I was trying to say about the drawbacks of direct democracy yesterday. Tinybgoat posted an interesting article about a concept called "hysteresis" which fascinated me in a quite abstract way and I thought it would make an interesting topic to debate, but when I've raised these ideas before on CIF I've been wildly misunderstood, so I'm glad that some people here were able to get some of what I was saying.

Thanks @Willow. It is an interesting subject. Recent developments and 'goings on' have caused me to ponder over this and related subjects today. I was out of step with official Green Party policy over the referendum in that I didn't think it should be held at all. I'm not a lover of referendums at the best of times. Too binary - especially on a subject such as this where the reasons people voted out were many and varied. I recall Michael Sylvain being very erudite on the subject. Btw what happened to him - he no longer seems to post?

Ours is meant to be a representative democracy. In which case broadly speaking, MPs should get on with it. The problem is, many MPs no longer seem to desire to serve the public, rather they wish to further their own careers and obtain huge wealth. I was astounded to read this article in the G the other day;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-minister" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why the surprise? Theresa May was always in favour of leaving the EU. She declared in favour of 'Remain' [and then kept her head down in the campaign] as a career move. Just like Boris came out in favour of 'Leave' as a career move. She called it better [in terms of their careers].

This type of thing, along with the expenses scandal and so on, have made people distrustful of MPs. Which in turn I think leads to the reason the Labour party are in such difficulty. The members are determined to be heard. So much so that many won't give any credit to anything the PLP say. And the PLP try and manipulate things when they can't persuade. So it reaches a 'stand off'.

I think this is true in a wider context too. I'm seeing more and more of this even at a local level.

[citizenJA]

House of Commons Library
Referendums
Published Wednesday, August 31, 2016

This Briefing Paper provides background to the increasing use of referendums worldwide to settle constitutional issues
and to the holding of referendums in the UK; a table of all referendums held in the UK to date is provided. The use of
thresholds in referendums is discussed and information provided on the administration of referendums and regulation
of the referendum campaigns.

The use of referendums has had a mixed history but in recent years they have become an increasingly popular tool
and have become an established mechanism for validating constitutional initiatives in the UK.

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... y/CBP-7692" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[citizenJA]

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

[TR'sGhost]

I think this is true in a wider context too. I'm seeing more and more of this even at a local level.

All political parties are a coalition of sorts, unless they're a tiny ultra-left or far-right grouplet.

What I think has been happening since 2008 is a polarisation of views, which tends to happen when the economic system is in crisis. The 1930s being a historical example everyone's familiar with. Then the polarisation was largely between parties, rather than within parties. In the UK the most divided party was probably the Tories, split between an "Empire first" faction which finally coalesced in 1940 around Churchill and the "modernisers" of the time who were highly impressed by developments in Germany and Italy.

The left was divided between Labour, a largely reformist party which sought to manage capitalism more fairly for the working classes and the smaller Communist party which was, well, genuinely communist with none of the Martin Jacques "identity politics and a kinder Thatcherism" stuff. Unfortunately they spent up to around 1937 opposing each other because mistakes were made on both sides concerning the nature of fascism and social democratic corporate state models. In the end they largely came to work together to oppose the very real threat of fascism and also on many "grass roots" issues like social security, unemployment and poverty, though as usual with Labour the leadership was to the right of most of the membership.

After the war the main left-wing parties, Labour and the much smaller CPGB got on with working to create the welfare state and taking a few essential industries which were either hyper-exploitative or being run into the ground by private owners (or both) into public ownership, with huge popular support.

Now it seems the divisions are as much within parties as between them. An example being that while on FTN Green members are welcome and generally left wing, two of the most nasty, sneering, sarcastic abusive and plain rude opponents of Corbyn I regularly encounter on Facebook (friends of a friend) are right-wing Greens who rarely let an hour go to waste when there's time to post another tedious dig at "Kommie Kommisar Korbyn, the anti-semitic woman-hating racist loser" to use one of their less offensive phrases. Apart from the green issues, which they seem to see as only solvable via a kind of profit incentivised small-state Randian anarcho-capitalism, they'd fit quite nicely into the wilder fringes of UKIP.

Interesting times.

[frog222]

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[frog222]

[youtube][/youtube]

PS just playing !

[frog222]

TRG

Now it seems the divisions are as much within parties as between them. An example being that while on FTN Green members are welcome and generally left wing, two of the most nasty, sneering, sarcastic abusive and plain rude opponents of Corbyn I regularly encounter on Facebook (friends of a friend) are right-wing Greens who rarely let an hour go to waste when there's time to post another tedious dig at "Kommie Kommisar Korbyn, the anti-semitic woman-hating racist loser" to use one of their less offensive phrases. Apart from the green issues, which they seem to see as only solvable via a kind of profit incentivised small-state Randian anarcho-capitalism, they'd fit quite nicely into the wilder fringes of UKIP.

My guess is that people are getting 'nastier' because more insecure in themselves ,, trapped or rather cornered rats .

Uggh !

[extankie]

that poor old 'scapegoat' pk1 who posted this last weekend

'Blimey, there are times when this place rivals twitter for crap. It's rapidly becoming meme central.'

Refused to explain what she meant by it......

That is the straw that broke the camel's back for me - I found it offensive to those who had been posting earlier and was something out of character with this board.....the arguments that followed it have led to a number of people stepping away from here, and apart from some sharp posts earlier today, I doubt they will be back

This is a shame because, apart from 3 specific people, I think this board is the most fun and engaging one I have ever have been a member of

Mea culpa I have been as guilty as some others in causing ructions for which I apologise but again we see in the post above a complete lack of awareness and a self-declaration of people being 'scapegoats' when at least some of them have been fully involved in poisoning the atmosphere

Oh, and SH has history of causing trouble...some days he is okay, but most he just causes problems as highlighted above

He has now been officially designated a 'scapegoat' now so I assume that means we can no longer point that out

I have just edited this to say that seeing clearly has been a beacon of light amongst the fog today (although there are others who continually post brilliantly despite the problems) and for that I will say a sincere thank you

seeing clearly..the name fits SO well..I add my thanks