Saturday 24th & Sunday 25th September 2016

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:02 pm

I know that we've all been pootling along very nicely without my help, but I'd hate to see any slippage. So, with that in mind and in the spirit of co-operation -

Please turn to page 2

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:03 pm

Oh, so you don't need my help then . . . .

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:05 pm

He would have won by a lot more had 120,000 people not been disennfranchised and another 60,000 purged - some on the most spurious of reasons. Telling really that the daily smears and lies, gerrymandering, purging, tantrums, crocodile tears, etc etc ad nauseum merely led to an increased majority.

And as for that ridiculous buzzfeed article - no mention of Eagle registering her campaign domain name before Benn resigned, no mentioin of JOhn Mann being canvassed for Owen Smith in January, no mention of press reports detailing exactly how the coup would pan out before by elections, and council elections, and finally brexit.

I've been quite sickened by the PLP during this leadership election.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:16 pm

pala wrote:Too busy, again but

And

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... our-leader

Now: support the elected leader or have the courtesy to keep quiet. The approach of the detractors (in and out of the PLP) in the last year has been a disaster. For everyone.

No, I won't keep quiet if and when I think it's important to speak and/or write.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:19 pm

Plaid's Leanne Wood:
''it isn't often I agree with (Owen Smith) but when he said a victory for Jeremy Corbyn would condemn the UK to a decade of Tory cuts it is difficult to see how he is wrong.''

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... y-11932449" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:20 pm

I'm sure people would have kept quiet if Smith had won.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:33 pm

refitman wrote:I imagine AK's got a big grin at the moment.

Had completely forgotten about it, given the other stuff going on, until you mentioned that

See what happens when you drop Rooney, eh.......

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:41 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Smith had his failings, but not sure where this knight in shining armour who could have beaten Corbyn actually is?

(and please, please don't suggest one of the Progress tendency)

Exactly Anatoly. All the best potential successors to Corbyn IMO are, perhaps with the exception of Cooper, already there in his team.

Let's just get on with it. Their time will come.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:44 pm

citizenJA wrote:
pala wrote:Too busy, again but

And

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... our-leader

Now: support the elected leader or have the courtesy to keep quiet. The approach of the detractors (in and out of the PLP) in the last year has been a disaster. For everyone.
No, I won't keep quiet if and when I think it's important to speak and/or write.

TBF JA I don't think pala's comments were aimed at folk like you. Of course everyone here is entitled to express their view.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:46 pm

On which

Yvette Cooper ‏@YvetteCooperMP 2h2 hours ago
Congratulations @jeremycorbyn re-elected today. Now the work starts to hold everyone together, build support across country & take Tories on

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:47 pm

"In such a polarised atmosphere, nuance is regarded as flip-flopping, fence-sitting, standing in the middle of the road
and being hit by traffic in both directions, to paraphrase Nye Bevan. But whatever derision they face, critical friends
are pivotal to both the survival and success of the left in general, and Labour in particular.

Critical friends will expect this of the parliamentary Labour party: that they should both accept and respect the second
overwhelming democratic mandate granted by a mass membership in the space of a year. No undermining, no sabotage.
That doesn’t mean shutting up about disagreements and lying to their own consciences. But it is possible to express
dissent in a way that doesn’t inflict serious political damage. MPs should accept more democratic involvement by a
mass membership they should see as an opportunity, not a threat. They should acknowledge that investment not cuts,
tax justice, public ownership and a foreign policy that prioritises peace are now cornerstones of Labour party policy. If
Labour is heading for calamitous defeat, then Corbyn’s opponents need the leadership to own what happens: if they plot
against the leadership, they risk being blamed.

Given the barrage of attacks the leadership has faced, the most passionate Corbyn supporters are infuriated by any criticism.
But blind, uncritical cheerleading will undermine the leadership. Critical friends are critical not because they want the left to
fail – they are desperate for the left to succeed. Ignoring challenges and problems, and pretending when things go wrong that
it is always the media and the PLP to blame, will lead to terrible defeat. Critical friends should cheer on the leadership when
they get it right, challenge attacks on the leadership when they are unreasonable (or worse), and criticise the leadership when
they get it wrong. There is nothing more more disloyal to the left than not saying uncomfortable things that have to be confronted
if the left is going to succeed."

- Owen Jones' article in the Guardian on Corbyn's Labour leadership win

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ent-vision" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:52 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:On which

Yvette Cooper ‏@YvetteCooperMP 2h2 hours ago
Congratulations @jeremycorbyn re-elected today. Now the work starts to hold everyone together, build support across country & take Tories on

This is big isn't it? will Corbyn invite Cooper back to the Shadow Cabinet? Will she accept?

It would be the best news for Labour in a very long time if it happened.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 3:28 pm

@yahyah

Did it arrive?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 4:01 pm

Yes, and responded to. There must be a tech problem.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 4:25 pm

Scrap that PF. Am not with it. Got the repeat of the first, and have got the second too.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 6:09 pm

Everybody gone off to celebrate/drown their sorrows, then?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 6:20 pm

Not much to celebrate is there really ?
More grief awaits us, and it would have been the same whichever man won.

I wasn't that struck on Smith for a variety of reasons, but at least if he'd won all us Labour voters who don't want hard [or soft, or medium] Brexit had some hope of having a voice.
Suspect the Lib Dems will benefit from the mess, which is also depressing as they deserved a lot more years in the wilderness.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 6:25 pm

Well, it depends what happens now - *if* most people on both "sides" decide to be reasonably sensible, some good could come of it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 6:27 pm

There are some members who aren't on either side, they must be feeling well fed up.
Can't see the polarisation stopping anytime soon though, so it'll be accusations of ''trots'' or 'Blairite mass murderers'' for a while longer.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 6:50 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Everybody gone off to celebrate/drown their sorrows, then?

Hi AK,
more than a few of us are celebrating elsewhere.
A good win for Corbyn,despite the dubious actions of the Labour hierarchy.Though to be fair,Smith was a poor candidate and performed badly at the hustings.
He made Corbyn seem even more dignified and sensible.
Speaking of dubious actions,WikiLeaks is offering a reward of £20,000 for #LabourLeaks with information on how the Labour Partys top officials have attempted to stop Jeremy Corbyn becoming and staying on as leader.
That is a lot of money.
Rumours on twitter and now in the press that some of the plotters are bullying MPs who may be thinking of joining the shadow cabinet.
Probably the ones crying for unity.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 8:53 pm

Redmen spank Hull, Corbyn by a decent percentage, not a bad day.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:09 pm

This is interesting...from a Blue Labour perspective. And from someone -if I'm reading his many tweets correctly - who thinks that liberalism has ruined both Conservative and Labour.

A Letter to (those leaving) Labour

https://michaelmerrick.me/2016/09/24/a- ... ng-labour/

But the question is: why now? What makes the party so unbearable, at this precise moment, that you cannot stay? Oh I know you feel marginalised and disillusioned – so do I – but that’s normal in politics right? I mean, it’s not as if this hasn’t been going on in the Labour Party for the last couple of decades. Indeed, some of you actively cheered it. The price of ‘modernisation’, apparently.

Or maybe we could come at this from another direction: why did you not resign when the party was decimating its working-class support? Why did you not feel so strongly when traditional Labour communities were feeling so systematically ignored? Indeed, so systematically despised? Why did you value your membership over your conscience then?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:16 pm

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:43 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:05 pm

Night cja, night John boy.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:47 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... y-concerns

Junior doctors have suspended plans to go on a series of five-day strikes to protest against changes to their contracts after a “vigorous debate” following a change in leadership.
The British Medical Association’s junior doctors committee (JDC) said it would not go ahead with the industrial action, but was “planning other actions over the coming weeks”.

One senior BMA official said: “Junior doctors don’t want to put patients at risk and don’t want to go ahead with a five-day strike. Quite a few don’t want any more strike action at all. Even the few JDC members who still think that they can’t give up totally wanted the 5-day strike scaled down.
“Junior doctors don’t have the heart or the stomach for this anymore. They don’t see the point of industrial action. They feel let down and blame both Jeremy Hunt and the BMA equally.”
There is also mounting anger and confusion among junior doctors at what many see as the BMA’s lack of clear strategy in first electing to hold all-out stoppages of unprecedented duration without defining what their purpose was.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:58 am

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/jeremy-corbyns ... ty-1583117

This unnecessary leadership election, called at a time of national crisis by short-sighted MPs, is now over, and Labour must focus its energy on holding Theresa May's government to account and providing a clear, cohesive alternative message for voters. Labour cannot win an election under Jeremy Corbyn if MPs like Jess Philips and Andy Burnham continue to feed negative and damaging messages to the press. Labour cannot win an election under Jeremy Corbyn if the party's (and the nation's) focus is on what Owen Jones has dubbed the "freakshow" of internal struggles.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 7:32 am

More of the ComRes/Mirror poll:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ju ... nk-8907161" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 8:17 am

Re ^^^

1. The question about Labour being divided - depends on the age of the person answering the question. I know memories fade but I;m pretty sure the early 80s were worse than now. have people really forgotten the SDP?

2. Knowing what the LibDems stand for - oh dear...

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 8:50 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Re ^^^

1. The question about Labour being divided - depends on the age of the person answering the question. I know memories fade but I;m pretty sure the early 80s were worse than now. have people really forgotten the SDP?

2. Knowing what the LibDems stand for - oh dear...

1. Well quite. More divided than when they divided.
2. That's a strange question imo. Are they aiming to check the 'known branding' of the parties? If the majority think a party are full of self serving, heartless gits they poll quite highly on that question presumably.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 8:58 am

Is fine that 50% of us want to start Leaving now, because with BoJo as foriegn minister it's getting too embarrassing to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... loney-jibe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Finance ministers offer to explain Lisbon treaty to him ‘in good English’

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 9:38 am

The reason Labour is not dividing now is the SDP.

We have had the SDP experiment: it failed. We saw what happens under FPTP to a centrist party like that. It gets crushed.

So, now it won't be tried.

But the division is worse. Foot was no Bennite. Corbyn is.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 9:48 am

The other big difference between now and the 80s is who the split is between.

Back then there were big ideological splits within the PLP.

Now the PLP is united. United in not wanting the Campaign group and John McDonnell in charge. So it is PLP v members, in a way that was not true in the 80s. There are only 25 hardcore Corbyinsta MPs at most.

The other difference is that the agenda of the Bennites is now much more long-term. McDonnell is no idiot and knows full well that there is no immediate prospect of Labour being in government. That is not the aim. Transforming the Labour party is.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 10:30 am

As with far, far too many polls, the questions are shit.

For example, I know very clearly what the Tories stand for: it's to kick the crap out of poorer and non-white, non-English people and make as much money by whatever means as they can get away with while doing so. It hasn't changed one iota in all the time I've disgraced this Earth.

But that's not what Tories would say they stand for.

The GBBO question is deliberately leading to get the answer the pollsters wanted, that people didn't mind that the BBC 'lost' the programme to Channel 4.

Bloody hell, I despise polling and all involved in playing the pollsters sordid little games at dictating to people what they want them to think rather than finding out what they actually think. Because that latter bit takes time and is hard work.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 10:32 am

But the main reason that is "different" now is that the PLP has become much more homogenous - both politically and sociologically.

I for one have never felt that to be a particularly healthy thing. The intake of MPs last year started to correct that, the process needs to continue.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 10:55 am

Labour's day so far

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtMNC3FWYAAW52c.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Buttercream Quislings.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 11:02 am

Good-morning, everyone.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 11:05 am

Indeed, AK. The UK is (currently) overall very mixed. The homogenization (and "professionalization") of our political representatives, cannot do anything other than fail to represent us.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 11:16 am

SDP. indeed look where that got us. but this is what happens when people can't overcome their differences and play nicely. the left do it all the time and spend their time splitting into ever tinier factions. the right have bigger fish to point at and band together to come out on top.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 11:39 am

Coincidentally, the peer who has just resigned from Labour was a founder member of the SDP and stood in two elections for them in the 80s.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 11:57 am

SpinningHugo wrote:The other big difference between now and the 80s is who the split is between.

Back then there were big ideological splits within the PLP.

Now the PLP is united.

(cJA edit)

Okey-dokey, good. That unity is harnessed for successful endeavour regardless of Corbyn or any other leader.
What Corbyn isn't able to provide, others must. Corbyn allows Labour party MPs to get on with their work. He
does what he's good at and allows others the same. I understand what I'm describing is likely unprecedented
and feasibly problematic. It's also vague. Please continue to have patience with me. I don't think Corbyn any
sort of wicked person. An arrangement of this sort would relieve him and others. Place one goal at the centre
of all the work Labour do - returning to government, providing leadership for the good of people and nation.

I'm interested in what works, not what I insist must work. It's a strategy I can't recommend enough.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 12:13 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:SDP. indeed look where that got us. but this is what happens when people can't overcome their differences and play nicely. the left do it all the time and spend their time splitting into ever tinier factions. the right have bigger fish to point at and band together to come out on top.

The right have only one need from each other.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 12:15 pm

Is this a new tactic,
concentrate on Mcdonnell & isolate Corbyn,
or is it just a continuation of previous hostilities?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 12:22 pm

I think having a go at McDonnell has long been a stand-by if JC doesn't offer too many easy hits.

(as by all accounts was the case this morning, even some sceptics seem to think he did reasonably well)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 12:32 pm

https://afterlabour.org/2016/09/24/why- ... ty-member/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I found this interesting, although I'm not sure if I agree or not.

I didn't join Kinnock's Labour party, although, as a natural social democrat, he convinced me that Labour as a coalition of views had the ability to oust the Tories that the SDP did not. I was devastated by Labour's loss in 1992. I didn't join John Smith's Labour, either, but only through lack of time. I was greatly inspired by Smith's vision for Britain and would have been at home in his Labour party. I didn't join Tony Blair's Labour, but then he didn't really need me, did he? At least he had Gordon Brown who I often agreed with. Not that I joined Gordon Brown's Labour either, his time was sadly cut short by the global crash.

So, after many years of supporting Labour, I finally joined. I joined because, as a social democrat, I felt I truly belonged in Ed Miliband's Labour. I agreed with his views on the need for evidence-based policy making, the need for constitutional reform, his desire to shine a light on UK dependent overseas territories that operate as tax havens, his support for Leveson and a whole host of other things. I arrived a bit late, but then that's my way. I hoped to belong to a Labour party that moved forwards from where Ed Miliband left off. I voted for Andy Burnham in that hope.

Instead I find myself in a party locked in a power struggle between a right wing I have little in common with and a left wing I have little in common with. The MPs I most relate to are virtually silent in this battle. Indeed, Andy Burnham will soon not be in the parliamentary Labour party at all. I don't know if I will remain a member. It took a certain type of leader to make me want to join, a leader who reminded me a little of John Smith. If I leave it won't be because I can't see myself voting for Corbyn's Labour, just that I don't see myself belonging in it as a party member. The style and direction aren't me. I'm quite fussy. I'm also slow to act and am unlikely to leave quickly, any more than I joined quickly. But something will have to change pretty fundamentally to convince me to stay.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 12:40 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I think having a go at McDonnell has long been a stand-by if JC doesn't offer too many easy hits.

(as by all accounts was the case this morning, even some sceptics seem to think he did reasonably well)

Thanks, Think i mighr have been putting too much weight on Hugo's posts.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:12 pm

I don't like what Owen Smith said about Theresa May and I don't like what John McDonnell said about Esther McVey. I don't remember Ed Miliband ever using such unpleasant language and I really miss him.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:22 pm

citizenJA wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:SDP. indeed look where that got us. but this is what happens when people can't overcome their differences and play nicely. the left do it all the time and spend their time splitting into ever tinier factions. the right have bigger fish to point at and band together to come out on top.
The right have only one need from each other.

Perhaps it's time the left concentrated on their shared need: to convince the electorate that the right does not work for them

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:26 pm

Willow904 wrote:I don't like what Owen Smith said about Theresa May and I don't like what John McDonnell said about Esther McVey. I don't remember Ed Miliband ever using such unpleasant language and I really miss him.

It's one thing almost everyone here agrees on. Ed Miliband is a fundamentally decent man. His words are always well chosen and calming. Even when he called for Corbyn to resign, he did so with a certain grace.

"We in the Labour party need to think about the country. I’ve supported Jeremy Corbyn all the way along, from the moment he was elected. It was the right thing to do.,” Miliband told the BBC. “I think a lot of what he stands for is very important for us going forward. But I’ve reluctantly reached a conclusion that his position is untenable.”

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:27 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:SDP. indeed look where that got us. but this is what happens when people can't overcome their differences and play nicely. the left do it all the time and spend their time splitting into ever tinier factions. the right have bigger fish to point at and band together to come out on top.
The right have only one need from each other.
Perhaps it's time the left concentrated on their shared need: to convince the electorate that the right does not work for them

Agreed.