Saturday 24th & Sunday 25th September 2016

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:34 pm

Yes, Ed was decent and intelligent.
He deserved a lot better than he got from both the right of the party, and the 'Miliband's just a smart-suited red Tory' brigade who are celebrating this weekend.

I joined the party in 2010 because of him, not really many reasons to stay now.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:40 pm

yahyah wrote:Yes, Ed was decent and intelligent.
He deserved a lot better than he got from both the right of the party, and the 'Miliband's just a smart-suited red Tory' brigade who are celebrating this weekend.

I joined the party in 2010 because of him, not really many reasons to stay now.

I believe Ed's still a member yahyah

And lots of other decent folk not least on here. Hope you stay....

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:54 pm

Very few proper Labour people - Corbyn supporters included - think Ed was a "red Tory". Its mostly Blairites who despise him.

Here's a thought - EM to return to JC's reshuffled team?

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:54 pm

I wonder whether Ed will join the SC. I hope so as I feel he could contribute a lot.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:54 pm

That's me wrong again.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:56 pm

Agree with that Frightful Oik. Fingers crossed.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:57 pm

I don't want to dare believe that Ed will return.

I would literally cry with joy! I identify so much with him, his values and his politics. I long to live in a country that would actively seek out someone like him to be in power.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 1:59 pm

In one way I hope he doesn't. Don't want to see him derided and sworn about again.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:00 pm

Whilst some Corbyn supporters are - perhaps inevitably - being a bit silly on social media this weekend, that doesn't alternately depress and amuse me anything like as much as the "IT ALL STARTED GOING WRONG IN 2007!!!!!" hot takes from the garment rending (and in some cases, ostentatiously membership card chopping) brigade.

And they say its just the Corbynistas who are a cult??

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:10 pm

Off topic, but does anyone know who the guitarist in the top right hand of this month's Mojo quiz is ?

Someone posted this pic of the quiz page on Twitter,

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CquHAFnXYAA3z1F.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We've answered every other clue, but are stuck on his name which is seven letters/one letter/nine letters.
The letters so far in the grid from other answers are: Y_g_i_ J. _A_MS_E_M
which makes for an odd first name. The Y is definitely correct as it comes from Laura Nyro's surname.

Extra cake for the person who can tell me.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:14 pm

What about those who don't want to be part of either cult ?
Are we supposed to just disappear ? Or start one of our own ?

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:14 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:SDP. indeed look where that got us. but this is what happens when people can't overcome their differences and play nicely. the left do it all the time and spend their time splitting into ever tinier factions. the right have bigger fish to point at and band together to come out on top.

The events of the last few months show just how factionalised the right, across the UKIP/Tory/right wing Labour gamut actually are.

The advantage they have is that when push comes to shove they all support the financial and class status quo and regard that as the most crucial issue. So they get the backing of the media moghuls and what public criticism there is of them is relatively restrained. They also agree that no trick is too dirty to use and use again to maintain that status quo.

It happened that in the 90s the collapse of the Tories into factionalism over the EU coincided with the Progress Ltd. "Project" taking control of Labour, or at least the majority of the PLP and NEC. Blair was the right man at the right time to provide an acceptable alternative to the Tories without frightening the horses. Another Labour leader may well have been given the same treatment as Kinnock, Miliband, Callaghan and Foot - four very different politicians who were all savaged daily.

The shambles, racism and dubious personal behaviour of Major's Tories would have been no more reported than the financial and sexual goings on of establishment figures was in the 1950s and 60s. Gay teacher, factory worker, playwright or internationally renowned computing expert? Prison and disgrace for you my lad. Gay MP/Lord/financier? The whips make a note of your "difficulty" for future use against you and quiet chats take place in gentlemen's clubs to impress upon the media the damage exposing you would do to "the national interest".

Whether the rise of social media and on-line alternative views and news can counter this remains to be seen and it doesn't help that the internet has also enabled nutcase conspiracy theorists and assorted ultra-right wing views from Mises to Rand to Adolf to be equally promulgated.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:21 pm

Willow904 wrote:I don't like what Owen Smith said about Theresa May and I don't like what John McDonnell said about Esther McVey. I don't remember Ed Miliband ever using such unpleasant language and I really miss him.

The lynching reference was repeating, what others had said, so arguably defendable, but probably Ill-advised, although look more out of place if being made in current atmosphere.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... hn-8125900

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2 ... ntsOfOrder

I can't find the original 'stain on humanity' quote, but if it was in regards to the effects of Government policy at the time, I think it's reasonable.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:26 pm

More to the point, why is this two year old story being rehashed now?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:30 pm

yahyah wrote:Off topic, but does anyone know who the guitarist in the top right hand of this month's Mojo quiz is ?

Someone posted this pic of the quiz page on Twitter,

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CquHAFnXYAA3z1F.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We've answered every other clue, but are stuck on his name which is seven letters/one letter/nine letters.
The letters so far in the grid from other answers are: Y_g_i_ J. _A_MS_E_M
which makes for an odd first name. The Y is definitely correct as it comes from Laura Nyro's surname.

Extra cake for the person who can tell me.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=https://e ... p38iiE645A

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:33 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:More to the point, why is this two year old story being rehashed now?

Well exactly. I hope that everyone regardless of their views on Corbyn and McDonnell will see this for what it is, an(other) attack by the establishment on the elected representative for Hayes & Harlington.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:35 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
yahyah wrote:Off topic, but does anyone know who the guitarist in the top right hand of this month's Mojo quiz is ?

Someone posted this pic of the quiz page on Twitter,

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CquHAFnXYAA3z1F.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We've answered every other clue, but are stuck on his name which is seven letters/one letter/nine letters.
The letters so far in the grid from other answers are: Y_g_i_ J. _A_MS_E_M
which makes for an odd first name. The Y is definitely correct as it comes from Laura Nyro's surname.

Extra cake for the person who can tell me.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=https://e ... p38iiE645A

Beat me to it

supposed to be the fastest.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:40 pm

Good morfternoon.

I caught a snippet of the Daily Politics on TV earlier. John Prescott was on (not sure what the thrust of his outpourings was, but then I rarely am) but he wasn't kind about Ed Miliband. So he's (JP) off my Christmas card list.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:46 pm

Btw on the "why now" with respect to McDonnell, there is of course the far more interesting gossip that the pig shagger is criticising May for not supporting him on Brexit.

Smoke screen? Something for lovely Laura to be able to report on?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:46 pm

Thanks to you both for the answer.

No wonder we didn't get it. Ywyngie J Malsteen doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.
But the bad news is that it means 60 across is wrong.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 2:47 pm

yahyah wrote:What about those who don't want to be part of either cult ?
Are we supposed to just disappear ? Or start one of our own ?

Most people in Labour are not part of any cult - both Corbyn and Smith voters.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 3:01 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote:What about those who don't want to be part of either cult ?
Are we supposed to just disappear ? Or start one of our own ?
Most people in Labour are not part of any cult - both Corbyn and Smith voters.

Did I say they were ?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 3:03 pm

Talking of the fragrant Laura, she really is shameless. Should this be the Twitter feed from the BBC?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 3:06 pm

yahyah wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote:What about those who don't want to be part of either cult ?
Are we supposed to just disappear ? Or start one of our own ?
Most people in Labour are not part of any cult - both Corbyn and Smith voters.
Did I say they were ?

I think the point is that these "cults" are largely media artefacts aimed at destabilising the whole of the left, with some success it has to be said

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 3:12 pm

Cults are based around unrealistic adulation of a leader or philosophy, with refusal to accept criticism of that leader or philosophy. Are there no party members showing any of that behaviour at all, be it for Blair or our current leader ? Or Miliband, although there are not that many of us in the Ed cult it seems.

To just write it off as a media construct is not facing up to what is actually happening in some cases.
As with a lot of things that irk people, there is often a grain of truth that is the irritant.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 3:17 pm

I admitted before there are cults on both "sides", my point is that they are not the majority - either nationally or regarding people I actually know.

On a maybe not unrelated point, Iain McNicol has just announced 15k people have joined the party since yesterday morning

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 3:27 pm

yahyah wrote:Cults are based around unrealistic adulation of a leader or philosophy, with refusal to accept criticism of that leader or philosophy. Are there no party members showing any of that behaviour at all, be it for Blair or our current leader ? Or Miliband, although there are not that many of us in the Ed cult it seems.

To just write it off as a media construct is not facing up to what is actually happening in some cases.
As with a lot of things that irk people, there is often a grain of truth that is the irritant.

yahyah I think Anatoly and myself are just trying to say that, notwithstanding the existence of cult-like aspects in parts of the party, the vast majority of Labour is not culty. I don't believe "cults" are Labour's main problem.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 3:48 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I don't believe "cults" are Labour's main problem.

No, I'd say leadership and coherence.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 4:12 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I don't believe "cults" are Labour's main problem.
No, I'd say leadership and coherence.

Yes.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 4:13 pm

Stop starting.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 4:16 pm

The main difference between the few that are Corbyn cultists and the few that are Blair ones - and it is very significant - is that the the former are just members or left wing non-members. Whereas many of the latter are an actual part of the PLP.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 4:25 pm

Walking back up the hill, I've been reflecting further on all this and I reckon, once again, that a root cause is the Westminster electoral system.

Syriza in Greece, Podemos in Spain, we mainly love it and cheer their successes to the rafters. But they have been able to carve out electoral space to the left of the main parties. This is almost impossible in our two-party FPTP system. Indeed, Labour are the only party ever to have achieved it. And of course Bernie Sanders was thwarted by the same problem in the US.

The only real way to realise an anti-austerity movement (call it a cult if you will) in Westminster is through Labour, not alongside it. And this will inevitably cause strife. Not everyone in Labour wants it to be a Syriza or Podemos and that's an entirely rational position.

I waver from time to time on my support for electoral reform, but I've just convinced myself again that it's essential.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 4:29 pm

I see that Chris Leslie has been invoking the "magic money tree" yet again <world's slowest handclap>

Why this absolutely useless plonker became (mercifully briefly) our Shadow Chancellor is something only Harriet Harman can explain.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 4:40 pm

21m ago 16:11
Immigrants should be forced to integrate into British life, says Umunna (Politics Live, Guardian)

Compulsory Strictly Come Dancing watching at gunpoint?

Encouraged or facilitated I can go along with, up to a point - but forced to integrate into British life? What does that mean? It's rather alarming (and even inflammatory) language.

Edited - typo

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 4:50 pm

PorFavor wrote:
21m ago 16:11
Immigrants should be forced to integrate into British life, says Umunna (Politics Live, Guardian)

Compulsory Strictly Come Dancing watching at gunpoint?

Encouraged or facilitated I can go along with, up to a point - but forced to integrate into British life? What does that mean? It's rather alarming (and even inflammatory) language.

Edited - typo

If this is true then Britain really is becoming a country not worth bothering with. Integration means further homogenization. The opposite of celebrating diversity. Why is Labour so keen on appealing to what's most crap about us rather than encouraging us to become less crap? If Labour goes down this route we might as well scrap having an opposition altogether and just succumb entirely to our longstanding aristocratic dictatorship.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 4:53 pm

yahyah wrote:Thanks to you both for the answer.

No wonder we didn't get it. Ywyngie J Malsteen doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.
But the bad news is that it means 60 across is wrong.

What's the clue to 60 Across? I completed the crossword but threw out the magazine last week

Edited to say: His name is YNGWIE J MALMSTEEN

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:12 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:More to the point, why is this two year old story being rehashed now?

McVile was on the same programme as McDonnell I believe.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:13 pm

They don’t write poems about David Cameron or Theresa May. But Jeremy Corbyn does inspire people to verse, and at the Momentum The World Transformed alternative conference a volume called “Poems for Jeremy Corbyn” on sale. It costs £10. There was even a session there today where they were read out, although it was not well attended. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Wish I'd arranged to go to Conference now.

I hope John O'Farrell is taking notes for his next book.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:28 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Walking back up the hill, I've been reflecting further on all this and I reckon, once again, that a root cause is the Westminster electoral system.

Syriza in Greece, Podemos in Spain, we mainly love it and cheer their successes to the rafters. But they have been able to carve out electoral space to the left of the main parties. This is almost impossible in our two-party FPTP system. Indeed, Labour are the only party ever to have achieved it. And of course Bernie Sanders was thwarted by the same problem in the US.

The only real way to realise an anti-austerity movement (call it a cult if you will) in Westminster is through Labour, not alongside it. And this will inevitably cause strife. Not everyone in Labour wants it to be a Syriza or Podemos and that's an entirely rational position.

I waver from time to time on my support for electoral reform, but I've just convinced myself again that it's essential.

I like this, Paul. I recommend your hill walking to everyone. Get out into what fresh air there is and walk throughout the day when possible. I went walking earlier and came back to the thread with fresh eyes. I welcome everyone's posts regardless of agreement or non-agreement. Exercise, fresh air opens doors inside my head, my heart. My perspective changes and I'm able to countenance different ideas, I'm less threatened by disagreement. My spouse and I are not in full agreement regarding current Labour party difficulties. Love and respect of each other first, always, helps prevent breakdowns in communication. It's possible to disagree, to give room to feelings of anger without causing pain. Space, make room for times when answers aren't readily available and ambiguity remains. When I'm hungry, tired, frightened, cold, in pain or ill I'll be less likely to see or feel openness. Best then to take care of those needs first without attempting what I'm able to accomplish well-fed, rested, stronger and in less pain. It's a work in progress. I push myself, stay up too late reading and writing sometimes. I'll be more likely to make mistakes then. I don't want to cause harm through careless communication. It's work, you know? It's hard work being left-wing, a social democrat, working with many and not just a few. Go easy on yourselves and each other.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:28 pm

"Cult" is of course deliberately insulting.

But, there does seem to have been an enormous amount of faith placed in Corbyn personally, when the specifics of how all these nice things everyone rational desires are to be achieved are even more sketchy than this time last year. I think back then JC was still trying to play the game by the rules, whereas now he knows that is counterproductive. The farcical £500bn infrastructure claim was emblematic.

Corbym hself clearly has only the sketchiest idea, which is why he is so much more animated when discussion turns to foreign policy.

Presumably the economic policy advisory panel cannot be reconvened. Wren-Lewis, essentially the author of the excellent fiscal policy, has become staunchly anti-Corbyn.

One of the problems with Smith was that his hopeless failure may have undermined some of the interesting policy suggestions he had.

As for the suggestion that other parts of the Labour party are just as guilty of placing too much faith placed n one individual, that is ridiculous.

Some people are still fighting the battles of 10 Yeats ago. Blair is long gone, and most of the 4.5% has now left. There isn't anyone pining for David Miliband, however much you might fantasise that people like that exist.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:37 pm

As a matter of interest why is a post from the disablist detritus of humanity infecting the forum?I have no idea if his a Tory,what he is a cowardly bullying bastard,and irredeemably thick with it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:40 pm

18-24 year olds.

One of the interesting stats from the exit poll was Corbyns losing to Smith in this age group.

How does that fit with the idea that the young ate getting their news and views from Facebook and the farcical Canary?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:44 pm

Robert Peston ‏@Peston 13m13 minutes ago

Labour conference chooses not to hold debate on what Brexit means. & this is a party that wants to hold @theresa_may to account? #Lab16

I'm In two minds on this - on the one hand it is the biggest issue we face but on the other conference only lasts a few days and the combined brilliance of the Three Stooges haven't yet come up with any answers so it might be wise to leave it.

having said that, they do need to sort out their immigration policy which is in all kinds of mess right now.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:45 pm

deleted

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:47 pm

Catching up with Marr. Johnson was soooooo bad!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:47 pm

He/she it is a disablist bully who choses by way of anonymity to purposefully pick on the sick/disabled.A cowardly bastard.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:49 pm

HindleA wrote:He/she it is a disablist bully who choses by way of anonymity to purposefully pick on the sick/disabled.A cowardly bastard.

I'm sorry - it's not good and should go, it's deliberately cruel and serves no good staying where it is. I'm sorry, my friend.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:51 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Robert Peston ‏@Peston 13m13 minutes ago

Labour conference chooses not to hold debate on what Brexit means. & this is a party that wants to hold @theresa_may to account? #Lab16
I'm In two minds on this - on the one hand it is the biggest issue we face but on the other conference only lasts a few days and the combined brilliance of the Three Stooges haven't yet come up with any answers so it might be wise to leave it.

having said that, they do need to sort out their immigration policy which is in all kinds of mess right now.

Isn't Labour supposed to be a political party? Isnt this the biggest current political issue by far?

I suppose Labour's position doesn't matter in practice, but this is a joke.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:53 pm

Not for me to say whether it stays or goes.Just giving my opinion as to the poster.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 5:59 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Robert Peston ‏@Peston 13m13 minutes ago

Labour conference chooses not to hold debate on what Brexit means. & this is a party that wants to hold @theresa_may to account? #Lab16
I'm In two minds on this - on the one hand it is the biggest issue we face but on the other conference only lasts a few days and the combined brilliance of the Three Stooges haven't yet come up with any answers so it might be wise to leave it.

having said that, they do need to sort out their immigration policy which is in all kinds of mess right now.
Isn't Labour supposed to be a political party? Isntbthis the biggest current pitical issue by far?

I supposecLaboyrs position doesn't matter in practice, but this is a joke.

So what would be the point of trying to work out what Brexit means when the government don't seem to have the slightest clue?

I'm all for discussing policies but this would be an utter waste of time - let's wait for the government to come up with some firm proposals.