Saturday 24th & Sunday 25th September 2016

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 8:14 am

That well organised plot everyone around here believes in

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/th ... -supremacy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 8:27 am

SpinningHugo wrote:That well organised plot everyone around here believes in

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/th ... -supremacy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I missed the reference to Conor McGinn when it came to the resignations?

Either way, it was a good read thanks.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 8:33 am

Morning all.

I'm left woindering if there are any cabinet members s whose position on the EU is clear.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Daniel Knowles Verified account
‏@dlknowles

Daniel Knowles Retweeted David Jack

Both Gove & Osborne now making it known they opposed an EU referendum. Evidentially not hard enough

I would imagine there are quite a few people who now might regret being quite so enthusiastic about Gove and Gibb given the last few months.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 8:37 am

@SH

It is normal practice to have one single thread for the weekend - could you change the title?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 8:45 am

The Indie say their poll shows Jeremy Corbyn is thought an 'election loser', 'incompetent' and 'out of touch' by working class and 2015 Labour voters

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 26486.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not exactly unexpected, but unnerving to hear it on this of all mornings.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:31 am

SpinningHugo wrote:That well organised plot everyone around here believes in

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/th ... -supremacy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not necessarily everyone - however it came about, it had the effect of allowing Clouncy Funt to clounce off unscathed from his humungous mess....following on from this and its' 'there ain't no coup I tell'ee', I'd like to raise a couple of points....

In a hastily convened conference call, Corbyn’s senior advisers discussed how to respond to a story that was about to appear in The Observer revealing that shadow foreign secretary Hilary Benn had been asking fellow shadow cabinet members whether they would call for Corbyn to resign, just hours after the party was defeated in the EU referendum.

Sorry - just run that by me again - just hours after the party was defeated in the EU referendum.

Is this not on a par with the bold UKIP statement of having 'won the election to get Britain out of the EU'? It is, I have to say, the first time I've seen it stated this way - I was totally unaware that it was Labours referendum to win or lose (or even party-political for that matter - I thought it was one of those times when we had a 'free vote' with everyone, irrespective of political colour, rallied to their own choice?)...

...and...

Or as another anti-Corbyn Labour MP put it: “People have slightly forgotten the referendum as the trigger for [the leadership challenge] out of sheer jaw-dropping disgust at how Corbyn performed. A lot of us do kind of blame him for losing a couple of percentage points and setting Britain on a different historic course.”

Really? 'Jaw-dropping disgust'? Is that even a 'thing'? I can't find the data now, but I have recently seen figures stating that some time before the referendum, Labour voters were 57% Remain - at the actual vote they were 63% Remain....but hey ho, someone somewhere has decided Corbyn is rubbish and unelectable, so he must be attacked and destroyed. (....and yes, I'm aware of the percieved shortfall in 'leadership' qualities....but, as he originally said - he wanted to be a different kind of leader - more inclusive and less authoritian...which, I believe(TM), can and has been done before (in terms of 'leadership')).

My own take on the post-Ref position by Corbyn (invoke Article 50 without delay) was a 'political' position - in other words, immediately and without delay focus all of the attention from the media onto the Clouncy Funt to, in some small way at least, hold him to account for the mess he made (and hold him to his pre-Ref 'promises' - i.e. 'invoke Article 50 without delay'.) My own expectation was for the Leader of the Opposition to hold the Prime Minister to account (or at least be allowed to try).

I could see that - but apparently no-one else could - 'cos Corbyns' crap/unelectable ad infinitum.

I did waver in my support for Corbyn around the time of the Ref - however, my support is stronger than ever now, due to the constant and ever-more shrill attacks on him personally....not much anywhere about the policies etc...and this 'he's unelectable' - if all the anti-Corbynites are able to see 4 years into the future with absolute clarity, perhaps one of them would like to give me the name of the winner of next years' Grand National (I jest of course, but for me that is how the 'unelectable' stuff looks - and, lest we forget, this is on day when he's expected to win another election).

To focus on something 4 years in the future, when 80 citizens a week are dying due to the inhumane policies of the current shower is, I believe(TM), negating some responsibility (a little maths says thats 80 per week x 182 weeks is 14,560 human lives)

Just for clarity, I am not now and have never been a member of the Labour party, I am a 'swing' voter and a known Miliband supporter, so should be on the target list for Labour - but I've espoused support for the Greens in the past as well, so I'm not convinced Labour wants my vote....and I remain an undeconstructed Marxist-collectivist grumpfuttock (who is also now, by dint of being a £3 Corbynista, a TrotrabbledogSturmAbteilungmoronanti-semiticdelusionalloony etc etc etc) living in Hope (yes still!...and still just north of Peterborough)

I apologise for anything I've said that might upset - I'm fully aware that people hold strong views and, as ever, other opinions are most definitely available...I also think it's a monumental shame that when Corbyn absolutely skewered May at PMQs (showing quite how out of her depth she is) more couldn't have been made of it....to hold Tory-dom to account and all that.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:33 am

SpinningHugo wrote:That well organised plot everyone around here believes in

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/th ... -supremacy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let's just ignore the planted press stories weeks and months in advance predicting pretty much what happened, then?

I don't deny there was a chaotic element to things in the aftermath of the seismic shock that was the referendum result.

But the likes of Benn knew exactly what they were doing.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:34 am

Good morfternoon.

The BBC TV news is reporting a 77.6% turnout in the leadership election.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:36 am

If true, that is fractionally *up* on last year. Contrary to some predictions.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:42 am

That took longer than it should've

so am now late....however, in the spirit of 'other opinions are available', this for balance regarding Labour and anti-Semitism...

Stephane Savary, journalist for Scisco Media, met with Ariel Moshe and Yoni Higgsmith from Jewish Voice, a progressive and socialist Jewish organisation supportive of the Labour Party.

https://sciscomedia.co.uk/conversation-jewish-voice/

ttfn

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:47 am

https://www.theguardian.com/public-lead ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As public cuts leave people destitute, it's charity workers like me who pick up the pieces

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 10:59 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the ... mg00000004" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Road Ahead

Kirk Douglas

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:07 am

This reply to @LabourÉoin got a lot of attention, almost all positive, with some suggesting I add Clive Lewis (Shadow Defence) to the list.

My point, which I know I've made before, is that there is some excellent non-hard left talent in the Shadow Cabinet already. Some might even call these guys "moderate".

What they are not is Westminster media poodles. I just hope this is remembered in the debates about to start.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:17 am

Eoin seems to changed over the last year or so, didn't he not even support Corbyn last year or am I confusing him with someone else ?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:30 am

yahyah I don't always agree with Éoin but I suspect like many he has swung behind Corbyn simply because he sees the attacks on him as disloyal and counterproductive.

I'm not seeking to re-open discussions on whether that is the right thing to do, lord knows we've been over that ground enough, but it's not a bizarre position to take IMO.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:32 am

A significant number of Burnham supporters last year (Clarke being one) seem to have swung behind Corbyn now.

OTOH, some who backed JC then voted for Smith this time.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:33 am

That wasn't my point Paul.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:38 am

My observation is that nobody has come back with a single criticism of any of

Shadow Education - Rayner
Shadow DWP - Abrahams
Shadow Brexit - Thornberry
Shadow Defence - Lewis

and nothing more than a couple of snide observations on Burnham, still Shadow Home.

OK they don't have loads of political experience between them, but they are passionate, talented, engaging politicians who are not associated with the hard left. And on the up side have some great real world careers and life experience to bring to the House.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:38 am

yahyah wrote:That wasn't my point Paul.

Sorry! And (and I'm really not being snide) what was your point please?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:41 am

About 62-38 to Corbyn is the rumour. If so then YouGov got it very close again.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:52 am

If Corbyn wins, I predict the next election won't be until 2020.

May will calculate that unless Corbyn steps down she can win in 2020 and therefore be in power until 2025. Going early will get a new decent opposition leader and a likely loss in 2021.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:53 am

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 3m3 minutes ago

Labour leadership 2016, result:
J. Corbyn: 61.8% (313,209)
O. Smith: 38.2% (193,229)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 11:54 am

Percentages not wildly different in the different categories.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:01 pm

Pushing on an open door but on the right side of the argument.

Schools Week LIVE ‏@SchoolsWeekLive 50s50 seconds ago

BREAKING: Re-elected Jeremy Corbyn announces nationwide campaign against grammar schools starting with day of action Oct 1. Story to follow.

Incidentally, if May does a u-turn, then Gove - who came out in support of grammar schools - is going to look very silly and opportunistic indeed. So, likely to be a good result all round then!

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:03 pm

Oh look.

Pointless little right wing troll makes an entrance, takes a dump and then pisses off again.

Shocked etc.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:11 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh look.

Pointless little right wing troll makes an entrance, takes a dump and then pisses off again.

Shocked etc.

Now, now. Someone who finds themselves compelled to make such a public exhibition of themselves and their anti-social obsessions is to be pitied rather than censured, surely.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:14 pm

Brilliant from Mark Steel

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:20 pm

Good job the PLP hasn't wasted several weeks deflecting attention away from the Tory shambles over Europe for absolutely no purpose whatsoever, eh?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:24 pm

Good for her

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:31 pm

I've just received an e-mail from Labour South East an extract from which is below -

Dear ,
This morning Jeremy Corbyn was re-elected as leader of the Labour Party. Now we need to get Jeremy elected as Prime Minister in 2020.

We have a unique opportunity to build a political movement that connects with voters right across our country. We need to make sure we continue to grow our membership and use the wealth of talent and knowledge that our members have here in the South East. But to do this need we need your support.

We are not like the Tories who receive millions of pounds from wealthy donors. We’re a grassroots organisation that relies on the generosity of our members and supporters. That’s why I hope you don’t mind me asking you for £10.

No time lost there!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:35 pm

It really doesn't matter. The 2015 result was the important one, and the September 2010 even more so. Far, far too late now. Indeed, ending the show now would have meant less entertainment as a semblance of competence returned.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:35 pm

That's an extract from the e-mail, and not an extract from Labour South East. Just to be clear.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:37 pm

My long standing prediction of 60-40 wasn't far out, then

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:43 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:43 pm

citizenJA wrote:Good-afternoon, everyone.

Wotcha.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:47 pm

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:50 pm

Looking at the numbers, JC did not do as well as I expected. Smith was a crap candidate, and the narrative of betrayal was strong. But still 40% of members voted against.

So what do MPs who want to remove John McDonnell as de facto leader of the Labour party now do?

Same as before. Wait. The most serious candidates, Jarvis and Starmer, need to join the shadow cabinet to gain member credibility. Everyone else holds back.

Wait two years. The incompetence continues, enthusiasm for inevitable defeat wanes. Try again.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:51 pm

Smith had his failings, but not sure where this knight in shining armour who could have beaten Corbyn actually is?

(and please, please don't suggest one of the Progress tendency)

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 12:57 pm

Jeremy Corbyn has now been elected Labour leader for the second time in two years, and with a bigger majority than before.

So along comes someone who insists there was never any plot or coup to tell us who he thinks the next ~~anti-democratic coup attempt~~ purely spontaneous and totally unplanned uprising will be led by and the time scale they'll be doing it in.

Laughable.

(edited for typos)

pala · Post by **pala** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:00 pm

Too busy, again but

And

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... our-leader

Now: support the elected leader or have the courtesy to keep quiet. The approach of the detractors (in and out of the PLP) in the last year has been a disaster. For everyone.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:17 pm

I imagine AK's got a big grin at the moment.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:19 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the ... mg00000004

The Road Ahead

Kirk Douglas

Beautiful man, I'd no idea he was 100 years old. I'm not that old but I agree with him.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:20 pm

He's not actually 100 until December I think?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:28 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:He's not actually 100 until December I think?

You're right.

"I am in my 100th year. When I was born in 1916 in Amsterdam, New York, Woodrow Wilson was our president.

They say there is nothing new under the sun. Since I was born, our planet has traveled around it one hundred
times. With each orbit, I’ve watched our country and our world evolve in ways that would have been unimaginable..."

- Kirk Douglas

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the ... b1409749f2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:32 pm

Anyway, congratulations to Jeremy Corbyn.

I'm hoping that I'm correct in thinking that, in his post-election speech, I detected more resolve to fight the Government parliamentarily as well as "grassroots-ly". The two approaches are not mutually exclusive and if done in the right way can pay dividends (provided, of course, that the two prongs are singing from the same hymn sheet). I trust that he now recognises that, and acts accordingly.

Edited to add -

But he must get his EU act together!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:36 pm

A very clear change of mind by the 2015 electorate. Just dwarfed by new members

Members who joined:
Pre May 2015
Smith 63%
Corbyn 37%

Since JC elected
Corbyn 83%
Smith 15%

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:43 pm

PorFavor wrote:
But he must get his EU act together!

Not only him - the entire party doesn't seem to know what its position on Brexit or immigration should be right now.

Hopefully we might get some clearer direction over the next few days.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:56 pm

Hugo a few days ago: (paraphrasing) anything above 40% would be a good result for Smith. Hugo today: I'm surprised Corbyn didn't win by more.

Transparent motives, as ever.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 1:59 pm

I notice there's some pointed comments about the empty seats in the conference hall.

Might be because the conference itself doesn't actually begin until tomorrow and delegates didn't think an extra night was worth paying for just to hear a result that they could see on TV anyway.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:00 pm

I think above 40% would have been surprisingly good.

Be fair though. JC's triumph is the most astonishing political development in decades. Defying the odds barely covers it. It is jaw dropping.