Tuesday 27th September 2016

Post by **refitman** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 7:10 am

Morning all.

Good work last night HA.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 7:42 am

Three contrasting pieces this morning

Toynbee

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... rence-2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hague

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09 ... should-fo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ganesh

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bf4bd252-83cd ... z4LR4gRt8a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All three are probably right in a way. Toynbee right on electabilty, Hague on the strategy to oust Corbyn, Ganesh on why that won't work.

But, but, but. Commentators spend too long on all this. The problem with Corbyn is not that he is right but unelectable. The latter is unprovable. The problem is he is wrong. Engage on the substance, on housing, or the £500bn investment pledge, or the random living wage figure, or University funding, or NHS provision, or rail nationalisation, or Syria, or having 'access to' the sengle market (Toynbee in particular misunderstands that) etc etc etc. He is wrong about all of these. Engage with the substance, don't say "I agree with him, but he won't win.".

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 8:02 am

Just heard Trump telling Clinton she has a problem with her temperament

Post by **adam** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 8:20 am

Thank goodness the electorate don't ever prefer an ignorant aggressive bully who ignores reality and has nothing but confidence to an experienced thoughtful and knowledgable politician who has the temperament to lead.

Oh, hang on....

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 8:26 am

Morning all.

Tory management of the public sector going well I see...

Prisons inspector slates HMP Bedford as 'abject failure' over standards

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -standards

He said there had been four people fulfilling the role of governor at Bedford since the last inspection in 2014 but, while responsibility lay mainly with the governor, there also had to be effective oversight at a national and regional level.

A Ministry of Justice spokesperson said safety in prisons was fundamental to the proper functioning of the justice system and a vital part of the government’s reform plans.

I seem to recall Gove coming up with a plan that would give power to governors....this isn't another of those sectors where they already have power and we're just being lied to is it?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 8:33 am

Oh look, and another...

Crisis-hit NHS body in £19.3million of debt appoints 'turnaround director' on £33,000 a month

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cr ... on-8919645

A crisis-hit NHS body with a £19.3million deficit paid a ‘director of turnaround’ £33,000-a-month

Bob Wiggins earned around £265,000 for eight months of work at the North Tyneside Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG).

Quite right - outrageous that anyone ought to be earning that sort of money - public or private sector.

Wait.

North Tyneside CCG said it had experienced significant financial difficulties.

They were caused by a number of long-term local issues which were already apparent at the time of its inception in 2013.

Oh.

So this is part of the top-down reorganisation that was the answer to a question that nobody had asked. Shocked etc.

I guess it's the NHS's fault ultimately though - can't possibly blame the government...

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 8:34 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
But, but, but. Commentators spend too long on all this. The problem with Corbyn is not that he is right but unelectable. The latter is unprovable. The problem is he is wrong. Engage on the substance, on housing, or the £500bn investment pledge, or the random living wage figure, or University funding, or NHS provision, or rail nationalisation, or Syria, or having 'access to' the sengle market (Toynbee in particular misunderstands that) etc etc etc. He is wrong about all of these. Engage with the substance, don't say "I agree with him, but he won't win.".

...in your opinion....others are available

How many £Bns given to banks after they failed (in the all powerful 'market')? A real government would invest that (electronically created out of thin air or magic money tree money, if you prefer) in people not banks.

How many uninhabited houses are there in the UK? (At least 750,000 - and council house provision was, until 1979, profitable for local authorities - the homes were of good quality and well kept in the vast majority - can you let us know what happens in a 'market' if the 'product' is suddenly swamped by the introduction of a large number of low-cost 'product'.....in a 'market' that would reduce the prices across the board, would it not?....can you tell whether that's happened in the housing 'market'))

You yourself have claimed to support 'giving poor people (the 'lower' orders) money'....

Hasn't Syria gone rather wrong, a bit like Libya? The anti-bombing stance is being proved more right every day.

....and as for nationalisation and the NHS? Well, life's too short Hugo, but suffice to say.......other opinions are available...and facts....evidence....experience etc

So if we accept the unelectable is unprovable we will have to start to debate the substance....which is where the house of cards that has been built on sand (politically speaking, for the last 35+ years) has a massive problem.

...and morfterbubble all...apologies for humouring Hugo but, for some reason Hope (which is where I live, just north of Peterborough) seems a little brighter and I don't find Hugos' blinkered blethering as insulting as I usually do (it may well be a feeling of relief that Trump doesn't seem to have done very well - I expected to wake up to 'Trump blasts Clinton and is nailed on to win'....but that doesn't seem to be the case)

ttfn

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 8:35 am

Déjà vu,
Have to say,I find the financial times, very repetitive nowadays, I follow the links but same old, same old.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 8:37 am

Vittorio da Sica's wonderful film Bicycle Thieves was on BBC 4 a couple of days ago, and is now on BBC i-player for the next 27 days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... le-thieves" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It was filmed in post war Rome and is about a worker and his family and his struggle to find work.
Always placed in the pantheon of the world's best films, it is really worth watching.
Filmed on a shoestring budget all the actors were untrained.
The lead role is acted by a factory worker which adds to the poignancy of a film about unemployment and poverty after the war.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 8:55 am

Lonewolfie wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
But, but, but. Commentators spend too long on all this. The problem with Corbyn is not that he is right but unelectable. The latter is unprovable. The problem is he is wrong. Engage on the substance, on housing, or the £500bn investment pledge, or the random living wage figure, or University funding, or NHS provision, or rail nationalisation, or Syria, or having 'access to' the sengle market (Toynbee in particular misunderstands that) etc etc etc. He is wrong about all of these. Engage with the substance, don't say "I agree with him, but he won't win.".
...in your opinion.

I never really understand this response. What else could it be?

Lonewolfie wrote:How many £Bns given to banks after they failed (in the all powerful 'market')? A real government would invest that (electronically created out of thin air or magic money tree money, if you prefer) in people not banks.

This will need further explanation?

Are you adopting the view of some libertarians that Labour should not have bailed out the banks in 2008? Should we have just let the market operate?

Why do you think putting equity into a bank (which can be sold) is remotely similar to, say, spending on higher salaries for teachers?

Lonewolfie wrote:How many uninhabited houses are there in the UK? (At least 750,000 - and council house provision was, until 1979, profitable for local authorities - the homes were of good quality and well kept in the vast majority - can you let us know what happens in a 'market' if the 'product' is suddenly swamped by the introduction of a large number of low-cost 'product'.....in a 'market' that would reduce the prices across the board, would it not?....can you tell whether that's happened in the housing 'market'))

Sure. The vast majority are in places like Stoke and Liverpool that have seen population declines. If populations decline you'll have empty housing.

UK empty housing rates are very low indeed compared to the rest of the EU, and falling. Around 0.5% in London.
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... N03012.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lonewolfie wrote: You yourself have claimed to support 'giving poor people (the 'lower' orders) money'....

Lower orders is a disgusting thing to say. But yes, the best and fairest way of helping the poorest is to give them money.

Lonewolfie wrote:Hasn't Syria gone rather wrong, a bit like Libya? The anti-bombing stance is being proved more right every day.

I'd argue Libya went wrong because of inadequate western commitment. Syria is somewhere the west has hardly intervened at all. It is not a poster boy for non-intervention, quite the opposite.

Lonewolfie wrote:....and as for nationalisation and the NHS? Well, life's too short Hugo, but suffice to say.......other opinions are available...and facts....evidence....experience etc

I don't think this, or the dull ad hom stuff, amounts to an argument.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 9:43 am

From the G live blog:

Corbyn is being urged by allies to sack McDonnell, the Times (paywall) reports. But it says Corbyn is refusing to countenance the idea. Here’s an extract from its story.
Moderate Labour MPs claim that the language used by Mr McDonnell acts as a “nod and a wink” to leftwingers to target them with abuse online.

Some of Mr Corbyn’s closest allies have told the leader that removing his old friend from his post would be the “single best thing” he could do to repair relations in the party ...

A senior source said: “We had the chance to reach out right at the start, but that fell apart when [Mr Corbyn] appointed McDonnell. He’s been told directly to get rid of him but he can’t.

“It would be the single best thing he could do to bring the party back together. It would immediately remove the major block stopping MPs from coming back.”

Just gossip, really, but caught my eye as the appointment of John McDonnell over other more experienced candidates was one of the things that most disappointed me about Corbyn and really kind of underlines that maybe he's not up to the job if he has to have his mate in a key role for moral support. The serious side to this is that economic credibility is a problem for Labour and really requires someone with a lot more relevant experience in the shadow Chancellor role. Now the economic panel has collapsed, McDonnell has lost what little credibility he had.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 9:53 am

This is why having Nick Timothy in No 10 is so dangerous and why his insane schemes need to be stopped. From Warwick Mansell's diary

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... speed-read" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Speaking to an invited dinner audience at the pro-market thinktank the Centre for the Study of Market Reform of Education (CMRE) in May, Timothy called for a “two-track” system for free schools: “basic-need new schools” – institutions set up in areas with a shortage of places – and truer “free schools” where there was no place shortage (“basic need” in the jargon), but not enough schools rated good or outstanding by Ofsted.

In the CMRE’s summary of the event, Timothy is quoted saying: “The free schools policy was never intended as a basic-need programme. But with the school age population projected to grow at such a fast rate, and with the fiscal squeeze [kicking in] it was inevitable that the policy would become dominated by this agenda.”

However, the policy needed to be brought back to its roots as a market mechanism, he said. “The government is trying to create a market in the education system. This … is the right track for reform but … there’s a lot that still needs to be done.”

You can see my comment BTL so won't repeat.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 9:56 am

Passed as part of a composite motion on employment rights proposed by the TSSA union:

[Conference] recognises that many of those who voted to leave the EU were expressing dissatisfaction with EU or national policy and were voting for change, but believes that unless the final settlement proves to be acceptable then the option of retaining EU membership should be retained. The final settlement should therefore be subject to approval, through parliament and potentially through a general election, or a referendum.

As Andrew Sparrow reflects, this conflicts with Corbyn's position that the referendum result can't be revisited.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 9:57 am

And this is worth reading from Nick Linford on apprenticeships...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government paying almost all the cost of apprentice management training schemes. Seriously?

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 10:20 am

Kalimera everyone from rainy Skiathos.

I've decided to return to inflict myself on you after a self imposed sabbatical during the nonsense (on all sides equally) of the leadership campaign

During my time here during the,all too many,rain breaks I have had the opportunity to avail myself of he BBC world service and observing the slant they put on UK and world news as opposed to our good old state broadcasters UK output.

I don't suppose it will surprise many here to hear that the world service is even more (if that's possible) right wing than at home.

Examples they are legion so I will restrict myself to one.The announcement of the result of the labour leadership poll was introduced as being won by the " divisive" Jeremy Corbyn.Now,of course,he is and I would not argue with that description if it were not that ,in my view,pretty much every politician is seen as divisive.

So why say it? I don't think I have ever heard Margaret Thatcher,Nigel Farage or even IDS being introduced in this manner when then clearly are equally seen as heroes or villains by the majority of the population.

When the BBC world service slavishly follows the Laura K line then I understand why so many Brits aboard vote Tory.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 10:40 am

Willow904 wrote:Now the economic panel has collapsed, McDonnell has lost what little credibility he had.

I know some resigned, but some haven't and Ann Pettifor said recently that the panel was suspended until after the leadership election.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 10:51 am

Have we seen this from David Allen Green?

The many hurdles of Brexit – a short summary post

http://jackofkent.com/2016/09/the-many- ... mary-post/

A lot of comments BTL.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 10:53 am

gilsey wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Now the economic panel has collapsed, McDonnell has lost what little credibility he had.
I know some resigned, but some haven't and Ann Pettifor said recently that the panel was suspended until after the leadership election.

Labour is still able to avail itself of the advice of economics experts, of course. I believe Stiglitz is also happy to continue to advise, but never sat on the panel and as such I see the original ambitious project a bust, I'm afraid.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 10:54 am

Lonewolfie wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
But, but, but. Commentators spend too long on all this. The problem with Corbyn is not that he is right but unelectable. The latter is unprovable. The problem is he is wrong. Engage on the substance, on housing, or the £500bn investment pledge, or the random living wage figure, or University funding, or NHS provision, or rail nationalisation, or Syria, or having 'access to' the sengle market (Toynbee in particular misunderstands that) etc etc etc. He is wrong about all of these. Engage with the substance, don't say "I agree with him, but he won't win.".
...in your opinion....others are available

From where I stand, almost all governments and oppositions in my lifetime have been 'wrong'. Once in a blue moon something happens that I think is 'right', I should probably say 'correct' in this context.
Legislation against discrimination is an obvious example, but to someone else that could be 'wrong'.

Corbyn is less wrong than the current government. That's pretty much as good as it gets for me with FPTP.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 10:58 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Have we seen this from David Allen Green?

The many hurdles of Brexit – a short summary post

http://jackofkent.com/2016/09/the-many- ... mary-post/

A lot of comments BTL.

Yes, we did have it yesterday, but worth repeating.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:01 am

Good-morning, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:03 am

Good work from HindleA on yesterday's late night/early morning commentary on Clinton/Trump debate - brief, scathingly accurate.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:18 am

http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/our- ... -1-7597920" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

‘Accept that your government is responsible’ - Council leader fires back at Peterborough MP over £1m hotel bill for homeless families

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:19 am

https://www.theguardian.com/public-lead ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Disabled people are still being treated as second class on public transport
Frances Ryan

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:29 am

Willow904 wrote:From the G live blog:

Corbyn is being urged by allies to sack McDonnell, the Times (paywall) reports. But it says Corbyn is refusing to countenance the idea. Here’s an extract from its story.
Moderate Labour MPs claim that the language used by Mr McDonnell acts as a “nod and a wink” to leftwingers to target them with abuse online.

Some of Mr Corbyn’s closest allies have told the leader that removing his old friend from his post would be the “single best thing” he could do to repair relations in the party ...

A senior source said: “We had the chance to reach out right at the start, but that fell apart when [Mr Corbyn] appointed McDonnell. He’s been told directly to get rid of him but he can’t.

“It would be the single best thing he could do to bring the party back together. It would immediately remove the major block stopping MPs from coming back.”
Just gossip, really, but caught my eye as the appointment of John McDonnell over other more experienced candidates was one of the things that most disappointed me about Corbyn and really kind of underlines that maybe he's not up to the job if he has to have his mate in a key role for moral support. The serious side to this is that economic credibility is a problem for Labour and really requires someone with a lot more relevant experience in the shadow Chancellor role. Now the economic panel has collapsed, McDonnell has lost what little credibility he had.

Corbyn isn't going to get rid of McDonnell, those who want him to make meaningful concessions should be concentrating on Milne instead.

IMO that is achievable (and probably more so after yesterday)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:29 am

https://www.theguardian.com/housing-net ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How can housing end poverty?
Solving the housing crisis is the only way to end poverty in the UK, says the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. We look at the numbers

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:36 am

FWIW

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main ... -5140.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Voters Nationally Say Clinton Won Debate 51/40

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:48 am

Anushka Asthana ‏@GuardianAnushka 34m34 minutes ago

He he - just heard Tom Watson and Sadiq Khan told man on autocue door to call them if anyone tries to get in...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:49 am

Well that's a relief, though given Trump's apparent borderline insane performance I might have preferred a bigger margin......

Post by **refitman** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 11:53 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Three contrasting pieces this morning

Toynbee

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... rence-2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hague

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09 ... should-fo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ganesh

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bf4bd252-83cd ... z4LR4gRt8a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All three are probably right in a way. Toynbee right on electabilty, Hague on the strategy to oust Corbyn, Ganesh on why that won't work.

But, but, but. Commentators spend too long on all this. The problem with Corbyn is not that he is right but unelectable. The latter is unprovable. The problem is he is wrong. Engage on the substance, on housing, or the £500bn investment pledge, or the random living wage figure, or University funding, or NHS provision, or rail nationalisation, or Syria, or having 'access to' the sengle market (Toynbee in particular misunderstands that) etc etc etc. He is wrong about all of these. Engage with the substance, don't say "I agree with him, but he won't win.".

How can Hague be right, if there was no organised coup attempt?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:01 pm

refitman wrote:How can Hague be right, if there was no organised coup attempt?

Shhh! You're not supposed to notice that bit right at the very beginning of the article!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:05 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well that's a relief, though given Trump's apparent borderline insane performance I might have preferred a bigger margin......

The Latino vote is strongly for Clinton and that's a good thing if keeping Trump from office is the goal. US Latino voters are
typically little 'c' conservative, make up a sizeable proportion of the electorate in many US states and tend to vote Democrat.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:23 pm

For those who were wondering, Corbyn's speech has been moved to tomorrow and will now close the conference. A sensible and long overdue change IMO.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:24 pm

Agreed

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:37 pm

Hope the weather improves for you ScarletGas and you have a good holiday.

The World Service now is not a patch on how it used to be when it was under the Foreign Office.
Another thing to blame the Tories for, offloading it onto the BBC with no extra funding I believe.

The whole ethos has changed, a lot of the informative, sad or heartmwarming stories they reported from around the world seem to have been ditched. There's now more emphasis on business.
For a lot of the night there's a couple of low talent presenters trying to sound cheerful and well informed. To cap it all there's the awful computer generated loud music that wakes you up if you did manage to nod off. All the worst of the BBC and little of the best.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:42 pm

'You're not in the real country!' Angry Labour members heckle top Blair chief - Mirror Online
https://apple.news/AXcVxBtafTjGhqUhQbeqrYA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Read this article and then answer this question, is Hugo actually John McTernan or not?

If not, then he does an exceptionally good impression of him.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:45 pm

Some good stuff in Diane Abbott's speech.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:49 pm

Nah, for all his foibles SH isn't as bad as McTernan. Hardly anybody on the entire planet is

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:51 pm

....energy company Ineos is celebrating the first arrival of its first shipment of US shale gas.

Rob Davies @ByRobDavies
Oh dear. Ineos' carefully stage-managed first delivery of US shale gas has fallen foul of the weather.
Too windy for Ineos Insight to dock.

12:14 PM - 27 Sep 2016

https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... 0914a06f4c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:52 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Nah, for all his foibles SH isn't as bad as McTernan.

In your opinion.

[A slight reprise... Hmm, that could be a crossword clue.]

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:53 pm

yahyah wrote:Some good stuff in Diane Abbott's speech.

She seemed to be acting as the olive branch bearer designate, too.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:53 pm

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:55 pm

Sadiq Khan is going down very well with those present at Conference.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:57 pm

The Sparrow says he seem to be trying to set a record for the use of the word power in a speech.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 12:59 pm

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... nightmare/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 1:07 pm

yahyah wrote:Vittorio da Sica's wonderful film Bicycle Thieves was on BBC 4 a couple of days ago, and is now on BBC i-player for the next 27 days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... le-thieves" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It was filmed in post war Rome and is about a worker and his family and his struggle to find work.
Always placed in the pantheon of the world's best films, it is really worth watching.
Filmed on a shoestring budget all the actors were untrained.
The lead role is acted by a factory worker which adds to the poignancy of a film about unemployment and poverty after the war.

On my to must watch list having somehow not seen more than snippets of it so far during my lifetime, despite it being one that I've always wanted to see.

Speaking of cracking films with almost solely amateur leads, I can't recommend Gillo Pontecorvo's The Battle of Algiers highly enough. One of my all time favourites, including the music. Propaganda for sure but superbly done propaganda that doesn't make the 'heroes' look terribly heroic.

It's hard to start a revolution. Even harder to continue it. And hardest of all to win it. But, it's only afterwards, when we have won, that the true difficulties begin. In short, Ali, there's still much to do.

Very apt, non?

Journalist: M. Ben M'Hidi, don't you think it's a bit cowardly to use women's baskets and handbags to carry explosive devices that kill so many innocent people?
Ben M'Hidi: And doesn't it seem to you even more cowardly to drop napalm bombs on defenseless villages, so that there are a thousand times more innocent victims? Of course, if we had your airplanes it would be a lot easier for us. Give us your bombers, and you can have our baskets.

Always boggles my mind that they apparently watched this film in the Pentagon prior to invading Iraq, then seemingly went ahead and used it as a blueprint for how to get absolutely everything wrong that you just saw could and would go wrong...

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 1:21 pm

I'll look out for that film Jonny.

I had an older French/Welsh boyfriend [who fancied himself as a cool Marxist intellectual] in my distant yoof and he had lived in Algeria for some of the war with the French as his father worked there. He vividly described being sent out by his mum as a youngster to buy foodstuffs and ending up in the middle of gunfire. Literally needed fresh underwear when he managed to make it back home.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 1:22 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 1:25 pm

Agree about World Service,it was my default choice of listening when it came on after Radio 4 closure since school.Now I have switched to 4 extra,though with the I-player thing which easilly confuses the easilly confused,not only is the hour uncertain I flit between decades,currently helping Marlowe on his latest case.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 1:29 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:'You're not in the real country!' Angry Labour members heckle top Blair chief - Mirror Online
https://apple.news/AXcVxBtafTjGhqUhQbeqrYA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"A waiting list to get a telephone? Most people don't remember a waiting list to get a telephone. It was a real thing."

I have been waiting for over 3 years for super fast [sic] broadband to be installed in our exchange. In zone 3 of London. The capital city. There is still no indication of when if ever this will happen from BT Openreach. This too is a REAL thing.

Members of my family have been waiting for years to get broadband faster than the paltry sub-1 MB/s they get now. They live in the countryside. This too is a REAL thing.

So don't give me that bullshit about waiting lists for telephones prior to privatisation, you egregious ignorant fucking prick.