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Lonewolfie wrote:
OK - as you know, I have a different opinion to yours, so, as I don't see McDonnell as particularly 'dangerous', perhaps you'd like to expand on that to enable me understand your opinion better?
Ok. Corbyn is basically incompetent
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So, for someone like me who doesn't share his views, he can be laughed off and at.
McDonnell is far more able. So, as soon as he became shadow Chancellor he stopped all the class war rhetoric of his backbench days. there is of course plenty of footage of his saying the usual class war things of his faction of the left, but he stopped all that when he took on his role. he was also instrumental in setting up the economic advisory panel, and adopting a fiscal policy that I think is beyond reproach. Adopting economic orthodoxy is not what he has spent his life arguing for, but he has very ably adapted to espousing it because that is what his role requires.
He is also the one who has added steel to Corbyn. At the point in the "coup" when Miliband called for Corbyn to go, I had thought he might quit. How can you operate as a leader when 80%+ of your Parliamentary party vote saying they have no confidence in you. it was McDonnell who stopped Corbyn from quitting. He has the extra bit of zeal.
I think McDonnell is de facto leader now. The power dynamic within his relationship with Corbyn has been set over 30 years, and is now clear.
In what way do you see John McDonnell as dangerous? You believe that he has abilities and consider him to be the "de facto" Labour leader so I'm curious as to what your problem with it all actually is. Is it that he seems to be content to leave Jeremy Corbyn (unelectable in a General Election\PM context) as leader? He (JMcD) can't have ambitions to be the power behind the throne if his "catspaw" doesn't stand a chance of ever ascending said throne. Do you think he has some longer-term hidden agenda? I'm genuinely interested to learn your thoughts on this because I can't fathom them.
Edited to add -
For my part, I think I'd prefer John McDonnell as leader. I can't be doing with all this "good cop\bad cop" routine which doesn't seem to be getting Labour anywhere at all.
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Diane Abbott is awful, I think we can all agree (though remarkably, a few people don't)
But one factor here might be considered - "making a statement" by appointing a minority figure to one of the "great offices" for the first time (whether actual or shadow) in the light of what we have seen from the Tories this week.
It suits JC in other ways I agree, but that is one way it could be (and is being) defended.
Indeed. The Caribbean is where the Tory front bench like their money, not their roots.
AngryAsWell wrote:Amber Rudd's brother on R4 now..
Yes, that was damning.
What was said?
More or less contradicted everything in her party speech. Very, very careful language, but next family meet up should be fun.
Edit to add link http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07wn46f#play" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by AngryAsWell on Fri 07 Oct, 2016 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I would imagine that most politicians would quite happily pay for their relatives to be locked up or silenced somehow as soon as they are elected given the trouble they cause...
Last edited by RogerOThornhill on Fri 07 Oct, 2016 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Government bars foreign academics from advising on Brexit
LSE receives email saying contributions from foreign experts on EU referendum matters will no longer be accepted
Shares in Lloyds, which have plunged 23% since Britain voted to leave the European Union, were down more than 3% after the announcement. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Which he has the right person in place in Keir Starmer to have that clarity of thought around all of the issues.
As I said earlier I don't think the HO is that important in the next few years. Yes, there's bound to be issues that crop up but since it lost justice it's not as important I don't think.
Corbyn and McDonnell's habit of contradicting and over ruling their shadow ministers doesn't reassure me that Starmer's appointment means anything tbh.
I think ultimately I have just lost confidence in Labour as a whole because none of them opposed the referendum when it went through Parliament. I appreciate the Greens and Libdems didn't either, but at least they are showing some signs of regretting that decision and that they view it as a disaster as I do. Most of Labour seems more concerned with representing other people than me at the moment, in one way or another. That's their prerogative. I'm just pointing out that they can't keep both leave and remain voters happy. The Tories have the same problem, but electorally a majority of their voters supported leave. Labour voters didn't. I feel many in Labour are ignoring this or ascribing their own antipathy to the EU to the bulk of Labour voters without evidence. Bristol, that just elected a Labour mayor, voted remain for instance. Bristol has been Libdem in the past.
My emphasis. This is not universally true. I'd love you to listen to and respect my (and others') view on this.
I am as pro-EU as it comes. Yet I think it would be entirely wrong for Labour to adopt an unequivocal pro-EU stance at this point. I have droned on at length before about why I believe that to be the case and will spare you today
You are completely entitled to your view, but please respect mine. IMHO Labour is playing this one with a straight bat and in a way that is most likely to lead to a British future in the EU. It is not absurd to believe that.
Just hearing on the BBC news that the Lloyd's public stake sale has been called off. Is that a record speed for a turn-around? Just like a boomerang . . .
The Lloyd's shares are listed as a government asset with a nominal value (purchase price?). When sold, how does this change the government finances wrt the deficit, state assets value etc?
The long, long, long term value of government assets would be interesting to see. How it's changes across governments.
PorFavor wrote:Just hearing on the BBC news that the Lloyd's public stake sale has been called off. Is that a record speed for a turn-around? Just like a boomerang . . .
PorFavor wrote:Just hearing on the BBC news that the Lloyd's public stake sale has been called off. Is that a record speed for a turn-around? Just like a boomerang . . .
Not public, private. Market volatility to blame. Remind me, why are the markets volatile again?
The Lloyd's shares are listed as a government asset with a nominal value (purchase price?). When sold, how does this change the government finances wrt the deficit, state assets value etc?
The long, long, long term value of government assets would be interesting to see. How it's changes across governments.
IIRC the money that was borrowed to finance the state's stake in banks (whether it was shareholding or loans) was kept out of the public debt/deficit numbers).
So...the impact of the sale on debt would be limited to any gain or loss. And probably wouldn't show in the deficit. I think.
Used to study this stuff religiously at one point but not for a while now so can't be certain.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Katrina Percy steps down from Southern Health advisory role
Posted at 14:22
Katrina Percy, the embattled former chief executive of Southern Health NHS trust, is to leave the organisation "with immediate effect".
The announcement comes after it emerged Ms Percy, who resigned as the head of the troubled mental health trust, had a new £240,000-a-year job created for her.
Hhad to be. No idea why Southern Health thought they could shift her to some new made-up position.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Leading foreign academics acting as expert advisers to the UK government have been told they will not be asked to contribute to any government analysis and reports on Brexit because they are not British nationals. (Politics Live, Guardian)
StephenDolan wrote:What are the thoughts regarding Ashworth, as a politician and in relation to Health?
The key question is what happens to his NEC position. He clearly has to stay in the shadow cabinet to keep it, which is why he never resigend. What he does is a second order issue.
Leading foreign academics acting as expert advisers to the UK government have been told they will not be asked to contribute to any government analysis and reports on Brexit because they are not British nationals. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Have posted on this twice today, seems it might not be legal
David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen 52m52 minutes ago
Can't help wondering if FCO in breach of public procurement law by insisting on UK nationals when commissioning services from LSE
AlbertSánchezGraells
@asanchezgraells
@DavidAllenGreen if this was in context of a services contract, most definitely. I am happy to provide free legal opinion on this @LSEnews
Leading foreign academics acting as expert advisers to the UK government have been told they will not be asked to contribute to any government analysis and reports on Brexit because they are not British nationals. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Have posted on this twice today, seems it might not be legal
David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen 52m52 minutes ago
Can't help wondering if FCO in breach of public procurement law by insisting on UK nationals when commissioning services from LSE
AlbertSánchezGraells
@asanchezgraells
@DavidAllenGreen if this was in context of a services contract, most definitely. I am happy to provide free legal opinion on this @LSEnews
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Another can of worms opened....
Seems several of our legal eagles on on this case
Jo Maugham QC @JolyonMaugham 18m18 minutes ago
I wonder if @sarahagemann would like to judicially review the Foreign Office? I'd be happy to act pro bono - and I know others would too.
Left hand right hand, no idea what this government are doing.
Thanks for all the replies to my question about Diane Abbott.
As usual I found myself agreeing to points made in all your posts.
I like her as a woman, she seems amiable and can imagine sitting and relaxing with her. Also I respect what she has achieved. But she can come across as shambolic sometimes.
She seems much better using snappy sound bites, comes across better then than when she talks at length.
Also, I had a mind slip and forgot we now have Amber Rudd as Home Sec. Not exactly a heavy weight to be up against.
So, will watch and wait to see how Diane gets on. She may rise to the challenge and prove people wrong. Fingers crossed.
yahyah wrote:Thanks for all the replies to my question about Diane Abbott.
As usual I found myself agreeing to points made in all your posts.
I like her as a woman, she seems amiable and can imagine sitting and relaxing with her. Also I respect what she has achieved. But she can come across as shambolic sometimes.
She seems much better using snappy sound bites, comes across better then than when she talks at length.
Also, I had a mind slip and forgot we now have Amber Rudd as Home Sec. Not exactly a heavy weight to be up against.
So, will watch and wait to see how Diane gets on. She may rise to the challenge and prove people wrong. Fingers crossed.
I'm hoping she sticks to her brief and stops becoming part of the rebuttal rotation. Let's hear from the rest of the shadow cabinet members.
Doing a football style minister v shadow "who's strongest" in each 'position' doesn't look great for the government as the media would have us believe. Would look even better for Labour if Corbyn would beg for Benn, Cooper, Umunna to join. Beg man, it's for the good of the party!
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Which he has the right person in place in Keir Starmer to have that clarity of thought around all of the issues.
As I said earlier I don't think the HO is that important in the next few years. Yes, there's bound to be issues that crop up but since it lost justice it's not as important I don't think.
Corbyn and McDonnell's habit of contradicting and over ruling their shadow ministers doesn't reassure me that Starmer's appointment means anything tbh.
I think ultimately I have just lost confidence in Labour as a whole because none of them opposed the referendum when it went through Parliament. I appreciate the Greens and Libdems didn't either, but at least they are showing some signs of regretting that decision and that they view it as a disaster as I do. Most of Labour seems more concerned with representing other people than me at the moment, in one way or another. That's their prerogative. I'm just pointing out that they can't keep both leave and remain voters happy. The Tories have the same problem, but electorally a majority of their voters supported leave. Labour voters didn't. I feel many in Labour are ignoring this or ascribing their own antipathy to the EU to the bulk of Labour voters without evidence. Bristol, that just elected a Labour mayor, voted remain for instance. Bristol has been Libdem in the past.
My emphasis. This is not universally true. I'd love you to listen to and respect my (and others') view on this.
I am as pro-EU as it comes. Yet I think it would be entirely wrong for Labour to adopt an unequivocal pro-EU stance at this point. I have droned on at length before about why I believe that to be the case and will spare you today
You are completely entitled to your view, but please respect mine. IMHO Labour is playing this one with a straight bat and in a way that is most likely to lead to a British future in the EU. It is not absurd to believe that.
I don't see how Corbyn could pursue a policy of remaining in the EU/single market, accepting free movement of people, without losing the votes of many leave voters who want curbs on immigration. If his plan is to just have "access" to the single market and no curbs on immigration either, which is how he often talks, I wonder just how many people this would appeal to. It doesn't particularly appeal to me.
You say you think Labour shouldn't adopt an unequivocal pro-EU stance at this time and you may be right. That may be clever politics. But until they do take such a stance, and I have no way of knowing if they ever will, they aren't offering me anything I can vote for. I don't know why you feel this is disrespecting your opinion. I'm only suggesting that there is a possibility, if others have similar feelings, that Labour gains in pro-EU cities like Bristol could become vulnerable to the unequivocally pro-EU Libdems or Greens.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Think your last sentence may prove to be prophetic Willow.
Maybe it is a question of where people are geographically.
You are around the Bristol area, I'm in Wales which will suffer if Brexit goes pear shaped and my constituency voted to remain.
The feeling of just being left to the wolves is quite strong for some Remain people I've spoken to and a party that stands up for them may leach votes from Labour. I've never been a one issue voter but this seems such a fundamental thing it is hard not to consider becoming one.
Maybe Brexit will end up being another nail in Labour's coffin. The ill feeling caused by pro/anti Corbyn views is bad enough, this seems to be capable of causing even more splitting and rancour.
yahyah wrote:Think your last sentence may prove to be prophetic Willow.
Maybe it is a question of where people are geographically.
You are around the Bristol area, I'm in Wales which will suffer if Brexit goes pear shaped and my constituency voted to remain.
The feeling of just being left to the wolves is quite strong for some Remain people I've spoken to and a party that stands up for them may leach votes from Labour. I've never been a one issue voter but this seems such a fundamental thing it is hard not to consider becoming one.
Maybe Brexit will end up being another nail in Labour's coffin. The ill feeling caused by pro/anti Corbyn views is bad enough, this seems to be capable of causing even more splitting and rancour.
You very much echo my thoughts Yahyah. And I would add that I feel the dilemma Labour is in is not because of Corbyn, but rather despite of him. The anti-austerity message he was elected for has been swamped and washed away by Brexit, an issue far greater than Labour's identity crisis. And you're so right about geography. In many constituencies locally voting Libdem is actually the more practical option if you are mostly interested in defeating the Tories and kicking them out. If their simple pro-EU message also appeals, it's hard to dismiss it as an option, however much they disappointed in government. I have to keep reminding myself that Paul's more northerly perspective is bound to be rather different to mine.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
