Extraordinary that it appears no official/police investigation into how Stephen Woolfe ended up in hospital will take place.
If he'd been punched or pushed by an immigrant would the Ukip MEPs be so keen to keep it all in-house ?
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 7:50 am
by yahyah
Is anyone here happy at Abbott's appointment or has a view to why it is a good decision from Corbyn ?
That's a genuine question, not rhetorical.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 8:22 am
by SpinningHugo
yahyah wrote:Is anyone here happy at Abbott's appointment or has a view to why it is a good decision from Corbyn ?
That's a genuine question, not rhetorical.
Well in electoral terms it is obviously a terrible appointment.
That isn't the benchmark though. It is a good appointment for Corbyn as he trues to change the party. See also the sacking of Winterton, the moving of Lewis.
All talk of a compromise by electing part of the shadow cabinet now over.
But, as I said last night, although it is easy to mock the Labour shadow cabinet (Burgon! Arf). The actual cabinet has Liam Fox and BoJo in it. That is much less funny. Would have been nice to have had an opposition.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 8:24 am
by adam
yahyah wrote:Is anyone here happy at Abbott's appointment or has a view to why it is a good decision from Corbyn ?
That's a genuine question, not rhetorical.
I don't think it's a good decision at all, I think it is probably a mixture of a calculated 'up yours' to the PLP that is understandable but unnecessary and deeply unhelpful and a simple reward for loyalty and history which isn't good enough when what you end up with is Dianne Abbott as shadow home secretary. But the PLP have to put up or shut up, and given that they've already put up then the only other alternative is to get out and I can't see that just now. I think however lousy you/i/we might feel about the appointment we have to wait and see how she actually does.
[Edit to tidy up repetition because I wasn't paying attention when typing.]
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 8:30 am
by JonnyT1234
I'm completely indifferent - she was always going to be in the shadow cabinet given the circumstances. The negatives are well known already. Possible advantages: she's the first black, female MP to have ever been elected to parliament and she's now opposite the person who has just given an impression of Hitler during the Tory conference. One party is saying, "look, you are all very welcome here no matter who you are or what your background is" and the other is saying, "fuck off, foreigners."
Another way of looking at it:
The whiners at his first shadow cabinet wanted more women to be given the more important briefs. Well, here's the consequence of that whining. Now shut up. You got what you asked for. Oh, so now it's a problem that a woman gets a top brief? Do go fuck yourselves.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 8:34 am
by StephenDolan
yahyah wrote:Is anyone here happy at Abbott's appointment or has a view to why it is a good decision from Corbyn ?
That's a genuine question, not rhetorical.
Nope and nope.
Given the coverage of Winterton no longer being chief whip you can see that the political media are going to be negative on a reshuffle. Abbott makes it very easy though.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 8:35 am
by JonnyT1234
yahyah wrote:Morning.
Extraordinary that it appears no official/police investigation into how Stephen Woolfe ended up in hospital will take place.
If he'd been punched or pushed by an immigrant would the Ukip MEPs be so keen to keep it all in-house ?
Point of order: he was punched by an immigrant. It happened in the European Parliament, not here. But that just amplifies the hypocrisy even further, don't you think.
Mr Woolfe, who hopes to become the party's new leader, accused MEP Mike Hookem of losing his temper and pushing him into a door frame during a meeting designed to clear the air between UKIP's MEPs.
Nom det.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 8:52 am
by SpinningHugo
Interesting that even those mos ardently pro-Mcdonnell's leadership not defending.
I think it brings a kind of beautiful clarity to Corbyn's attitude to compromise with the PLP, and so should be welcome. There was an awful lot of happy clappy naivety about.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 8:53 am
by PaulfromYorkshire
It's strange though, when you ask people why they don't like Diane Abbott.
Morning btw
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 8:58 am
by SpinningHugo
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:It's strange though, when you ask people why they don't like Diane Abbott.
Morning btw
I think she was brilliant on This Week. A perfect double act with Portillo.
That the world is now that Liz Kendall fulfills that role is sad to me. Id quit and find something else to do if I were her. Why put up with the grief?
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:02 am
by JonnyT1234
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:It's strange though, when you ask people why they don't like Diane Abbott.
Morning btw
She's not very bright and she frequently demonstrates it by inserting her foot into her mouth. That's all there is to it for me. I don't dislike her, I just don't think she has the nous or talent necessary for the job.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:10 am
by StephenDolan
So what positions are likely to be filled today /over the weekend?
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:11 am
by JonnyT1234
Miliband at Health?
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:15 am
by SpinningHugo
JonnyT1234 wrote:Miliband at Health?
Miliband surely too prominent in calling for Corbyn to go to serve now.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:20 am
by RogerOThornhill
Good morning.
No, it's not a good decision.
But...I do wonder how big a role it is in the next few years given that immigration is so bound up with Brexit. The Starmer appointment is far more important between now and 2020.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:25 am
by StephenDolan
Glad to hear Blair has ramped up the rhetoric. Labour have gone from a left, to a hard left and now to an ultra left party.
Ultra left? And he's pulled up on that in fawning interviews? Perhaps he should be taken through the policies one by one and say whether he opposes them now and how they differ from his offering in say 97.
If there's one guaranteed way to split the party its for Blair to return.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:25 am
by JonnyT1234
Miliband would be the perfect olive branch for both sides:
High profile brief for one of the big hitters who opposed Corbyn's leadership
Liked by supporters of both sides
A brief that he can be passionate about, thus countering one of his big weaknesses as an MP
Would piss all over Hunt with ease
Zero leadership ambitions
Perfect choice. Won't happen.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:28 am
by JonnyT1234
StephenDolan wrote:If there's one guaranteed way to split the party its for Blair to return.
He'd be the ideal unity candidate. Practically everyone in the UK hates him so they'd be united in not wanting him to win.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:36 am
by StephenDolan
JonnyT1234 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:If there's one guaranteed way to split the party its for Blair to return.
He'd be the ideal unity candidate. Practically everyone in the UK hates him so they'd be united in not wanting him to win.
Maybe he'll start his own party. Call it new Labour.
yahyah wrote:Is anyone here happy at Abbott's appointment or has a view to why it is a good decision from Corbyn ?
That's a genuine question, not rhetorical.
I was surprisingly sanguine enough when she was at Health, because she actually restricted herself to talking just about health, which was a huge improvement on previously when she was constantly on the TV talking about everything under the sun as Corbyn's personal cheerleader and generally winding me up. Now she's in the heart of Corbyn's inner circle, I suspect she's going to be everywhere again and I don't see it generally being a popular appointment. She is at least more experienced than some of Corbyn's appointments. She will hopefully quash any moves towards more anti-immigrant rhetoric from Labour. A black woman in a top role is positive and she's up against Amber Rudd, so no one can claim she's not up to it without looking stupid or racist given the quality of the actual Home Secretary. The problem as I see it is that as Labour has been successful in promoting people from ethnic minorities and achieving progress in equality, so they have lost support from the traditional working class. Promoting Diane Abbott won't win them back. At the same time, being anti-EU and anti- single market and generally trying to actively pursue the goals of the majority who voted out, will alienate those outward looking people who celebrate multi-culturalism and are unconcerned about the growing number of Labour MPs from an ethnic background.
Add in the fact that Abbott and Corbyn were romantically involved and his insistence on having his mate as shadow Chancellor despite other far more able and experienced candidates and it's all looking very cosy and incestuous with very little indication of Corbyn finding a way to reach out past his core support any time soon.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:55 am
by RogerOThornhill
Two interesting edu stories:
1. Justine Greening who can't defend grammar schools so simply didn't turn up to fringe events.
How long have I been saying this? Oh, about 6 years...
I also think they've realised that full academisation simply isn't going to happen anytime soon if ever so this is a way of pulling the academies/maintained oversight together.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:56 am
by StephenDolan
"nd generally trying to actively pursue the goals of the majority who voted out, will alienate those outward looking people who celebrate multi-culturalism and are unconcerned about the growing number of Labour MPs from an ethnic background."
The only ones I hear nakedly pivoting with their 'listened to the public' patter are Reeves, Umunna and the Tories.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 9:56 am
by Lonewolfie
yahyah wrote:Is anyone here happy at Abbott's appointment or has a view to why it is a good decision from Corbyn ?
That's a genuine question, not rhetorical.
Happy's perhaps a bit of a stretch....however I did see some stuff last night stating how Abbott is particularly 'on the money' when it comes to the IPL Bill (and all the Snoopers Charter/surveillance b***sh1t).
As I've said here before (it's many moons ago now) - I can't quite understand the immediate dislike - at the time, I linked a video of Abbott speaking at a DPAC meeting (I think it was DPAC - definitely a Disability protest meeting anyhow) - a good confident speaker who actually cares - and yes, there are 'foot-in-mouth' moments, but she is surely not alone in that?...and if she does have an accurate and knowledgeable take on her brief, Rudd will look like the lightweight that she is.
Given the events of the past few years and the visceral dislike from her own side, however, I rather doubt she'll be aloud to remain in post for that long.
I also remember quite a few commenters stating a dislike for Corbyns' approach and that McDonnell would be a better bet - it seems he too is now 'useless/no good'. He would, of course, be the first Chancellor in a very long time (if ever) with previous (very successful) experience of running multi-billion £ budgets.
My thoughts on the Shadow Health position? I saw many on Twitter stating 'Corbyn didn't announce it (SHSoS) last night so he doesn't think it's important'....maybe he's waiting 'til today to announce it - how about Owen Smith in the role? Showing how everyone can get along?
I know....I live in a dreamworld....but it is in Hope (just north of Peterborough)
As you all probably know by now, I am not now and have never been a member of the Labour party....but I am a £3 Corbynista and a Miliband (Ed) fan....and a 'swing' voter...and someone who cares deeply about the inclusion in society of everyone...and Corbyn still speaks to me in a way no other politician ever has....and maybe I am 'naive'....but having lived and experienced a 'better world' (1970s Britain was a pretty cool place to be (in the main - Rock Against Racism and the Anti-Nazi League were some pointers to the 'bad' bits - the fact that they should even have been necessary)), I know that it is possible....and it ain't gonna come from anywhere else.
...and another thing....I don't see a lot of discussion about the election in 2017...everyone (not here necessarily) is totally and absolutely convinced that there will be total backing for May/Rudd from their own side - so Ken Clarke and other Europhiles happily nodding along to whatever HMG come up with.....needless to say, I'm not convinced by that....and, tbf, the earlier the election, the fewer of our fellow citizens will succumb to the desperation and destitution being forced on them by the (fetid pit of compassionless inhumanity that is the) Establishment.
I also believe(TM) that, following Corbyns' total skewering of May at the last PMQs, that the next PMQs will be even better for Corbyn.
Apologies for the length - I just don't seem to be able to encapsulate stuff succinctly and other opinions are most definitely available
Lonewolfie wrote:
I also remember quite a few commenters stating a dislike for Corbyns' approach and that McDonnell would be a better bet - it seems he too is now 'useless/no good'. He would, of course, be the first Chancellor in a very long time (if ever) with previous (very successful) experience of running multi-billion £ budgets.
The problem with McDonnell is not his ability. He is very able indeed I think. Apart from the Red Book slip, he has performed his role as shadow Chancellor as well as he could. He has censored himself very ably.
He is, de facto, the leader of the Labour party. His competence is not the problem with McDonnell.
McDonnell is far more dangerous individual than Corbyn. Corbyn would have quit long ago but for McDonnell.
The underperformance of Milne is a sharp contrast. Milne has the same kind of views as McD, but has wholly failed to show the flexibility required to do the job expected of him. He just can't play the part, in the way McD can.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 10:19 am
by gilsey
Willow904 wrote:The problem as I see it is that as Labour has been successful in promoting people from ethnic minorities and achieving progress in equality, so they have lost support from the traditional working class. Promoting Diane Abbott won't win them back. At the same time, being anti-EU and anti- single market and generally trying to actively pursue the goals of the majority who voted out, will alienate those outward looking people who celebrate multi-culturalism and are unconcerned about the growing number of Labour MPs from an ethnic background.
This is Labour's dilemma, as noted before.
He hasn't said it in so many words yet, but Corbyn seems to be favouring the Norway option, which is fair enough as a position for Labour imo, given that calling for staying in the EU is seen as undemocratic, not least by JC himself. If Starmer and he have got their ducks in a line it may go ok.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 10:24 am
by Willow904
StephenDolan wrote:"nd generally trying to actively pursue the goals of the majority who voted out, will alienate those outward looking people who celebrate multi-culturalism and are unconcerned about the growing number of Labour MPs from an ethnic background."
The only ones I hear nakedly pivoting with their 'listened to the public' patter are Reeves, Umunna and the Tories.
Show me where Corbyn has committed to do everything he can to keep the UK in the single market, because I'm not seeing it. The fact that Reeves and the Tories are worse is not the point. The point is that for pro-EU remain voters like me the Greens, SNP and the Libdems are better. They are clearer, more emphatic, that leaving the EU and more especially, leaving the single market would be a bad move and they will oppose it. Corbyn isn't clear.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 10:30 am
by RogerOThornhill
Willow904 wrote:Corbyn isn't clear.
Which he has the right person in place in Keir Starmer to have that clarity of thought around all of the issues.
As I said earlier I don't think the HO is that important in the next few years. Yes, there's bound to be issues that crop up but since it lost justice it's not as important I don't think.
In May's dystopian 'meritocracy' there are no council houses
Dawn Foster
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 10:43 am
by StephenDolan
Starmer getting a jump on an ex paratrooper. The shame.
I'm hoping for prominent media interaction by Starmer.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 10:46 am
by SpinningHugo
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Corbyn isn't clear.
Which he has the right person in place in Keir Starmer to have that clarity of thought around all of the issues.
I don't think this policy will be set by him. It has alrwady been set by McDonnell as shadow Chancellor. He wants access to the single market. Quite a different thing from being a member of it.
How Starmer copes constrained by a policy he does not set will be interesting. I expect him to confine himself to criticising, while not saying what Labour would do.
A hard brief, but someone has to go in so as to try and win the leadership in 2018.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 10:51 am
by StephenDolan
McDonnell. The Machiavelli extraordinaire. Cool story. Right, that's the last of the herd, I'm out of goats.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 10:53 am
by SpinningHugo
Corbyn and Brexit.
Two areas where those who warned it wasnt a good idea are blamed for things not going well.
My brother has Down’s syndrome. I wouldn’t change him for the world
Oliver Shone
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 10:58 am
by Lonewolfie
Willow904 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:"nd generally trying to actively pursue the goals of the majority who voted out, will alienate those outward looking people who celebrate multi-culturalism and are unconcerned about the growing number of Labour MPs from an ethnic background."
The only ones I hear nakedly pivoting with their 'listened to the public' patter are Reeves, Umunna and the Tories.
Show me where Corbyn has committed to do everything he can to keep the UK in the single market, because I'm not seeing it. The fact that Reeves and the Tories are worse is not the point. The point is that for pro-EU remain voters like me the Greens, SNP and the Libdems are better. They are clearer, more emphatic, that leaving the EU and more especially, leaving the single market would be a bad move and they will oppose it. Corbyn isn't clear.
Sorry Willow, but I respectfully disagree - there was a fair bit of Corbyns' speech at the Conference where it was categorically stated that he (and Labour) would not support Brexit in any form if it eroded workers right further (and other examples but again, apologies, as I can't automatically remember them ) - what I heard (or the way I heard it, if you like) was an acceptance that the Government have accepted the result of the referendum as it allows their masters free reign - and because they have accepted it, you have no choice but to fight what's in front of you...which is nothing yet except more xenophobic rubbish, the 'Brexit is Brexit' thought-free tagline and not much else....and I, for one, am not convinced that the Three Stooges will be able to come up with anything at all...but it is where the current Government are.
Apparently Hammond yesterday was 'reassuring' the US that 'hard' Brexit didn't mean 'hard' Brexit - is Sterling still falling btw? (Rhetorical ) Just a 15% devaluation of the currency so far...but it's OK because this isn't just any mess...it's the Clouncy Funts mess and the Tories are great at business and stuff and at least it's not Labours mess (which, tbf, wasn't very messy at all)...though given the incompetence at the heart of Government, how long can they actually last? (we used to think Clouncy and Gidiot were incompetent - this lot are taking incompetence to a whole new (low) level)
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 10:58 am
by Willow904
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Corbyn isn't clear.
Which he has the right person in place in Keir Starmer to have that clarity of thought around all of the issues.
As I said earlier I don't think the HO is that important in the next few years. Yes, there's bound to be issues that crop up but since it lost justice it's not as important I don't think.
Corbyn and McDonnell's habit of contradicting and over ruling their shadow ministers doesn't reassure me that Starmer's appointment means anything tbh.
I think ultimately I have just lost confidence in Labour as a whole because none of them opposed the referendum when it went through Parliament. I appreciate the Greens and Libdems didn't either, but at least they are showing some signs of regretting that decision and that they view it as a disaster as I do. Most of Labour seems more concerned with representing other people than me at the moment, in one way or another. That's their prerogative. I'm just pointing out that they can't keep both leave and remain voters happy. The Tories have the same problem, but electorally a majority of their voters supported leave. Labour voters didn't. I feel many in Labour are ignoring this or ascribing their own antipathy to the EU to the bulk of Labour voters without evidence. Bristol, that just elected a Labour mayor, voted remain for instance. Bristol has been Libdem in the past.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:03 am
by Lonewolfie
SpinningHugo wrote:
Lonewolfie wrote:
I also remember quite a few commenters stating a dislike for Corbyns' approach and that McDonnell would be a better bet - it seems he too is now 'useless/no good'. He would, of course, be the first Chancellor in a very long time (if ever) with previous (very successful) experience of running multi-billion £ budgets.
The problem with McDonnell is not his ability. He is very able indeed I think. Apart from the Red Book slip, he has performed his role as shadow Chancellor as well as he could. He has censored himself very ably.
He is, de facto, the leader of the Labour party. His competence is not the problem with McDonnell.
McDonnell is far more dangerous individual than Corbyn. Corbyn would have quit long ago but for McDonnell.
The underperformance of Milne is a sharp contrast. Milne has the same kind of views as McD, but has wholly failed to show the flexibility required to do the job expected of him. He just can't play the part, in the way McD can.
OK - as you know, I have a different opinion to yours, so, as I don't see McDonnell as particularly 'dangerous', perhaps you'd like to expand on that to enable me understand your opinion better?
...and I see you've now left, as I must also do...so maybe later?
ttfn
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:13 am
by SpinningHugo
Lonewolfie wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Lonewolfie wrote:
I also remember quite a few commenters stating a dislike for Corbyns' approach and that McDonnell would be a better bet - it seems he too is now 'useless/no good'. He would, of course, be the first Chancellor in a very long time (if ever) with previous (very successful) experience of running multi-billion £ budgets.
The problem with McDonnell is not his ability. He is very able indeed I think. Apart from the Red Book slip, he has performed his role as shadow Chancellor as well as he could. He has censored himself very ably.
He is, de facto, the leader of the Labour party. His competence is not the problem with McDonnell.
McDonnell is far more dangerous individual than Corbyn. Corbyn would have quit long ago but for McDonnell.
The underperformance of Milne is a sharp contrast. Milne has the same kind of views as McD, but has wholly failed to show the flexibility required to do the job expected of him. He just can't play the part, in the way McD can.
OK - as you know, I have a different opinion to yours, so, as I don't see McDonnell as particularly 'dangerous', perhaps you'd like to expand on that to enable me understand your opinion better?
Ok. Corbyn is basically incompetent
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So, for someone like me who doesn't share his views, he can be laughed off and at.
McDonnell is far more able. So, as soon as he became shadow Chancellor he stopped all the class war rhetoric of his backbench days. there is of course plenty of footage of his saying the usual class war things of his faction of the left, but he stopped all that when he took on his role. he was also instrumental in setting up the economic advisory panel, and adopting a fiscal policy that I think is beyond reproach. Adopting economic orthodoxy is not what he has spent his life arguing for, but he has very ably adapted to espousing it because that is what his role requires.
He is also the one who has added steel to Corbyn. At the point in the "coup" when Miliband called for Corbyn to go, I had thought he might quit. How can you operate as a leader when 80%+ of your Parliamentary party vote saying they have no confidence in you. it was McDonnell who stopped Corbyn from quitting. He has the extra bit of zeal.
I think McDonnell is de facto leader now. The power dynamic within his relationship with Corbyn has been set over 30 years, and is now clear.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:15 am
by Bonnylad
The £ is getting a good kicking today-$1.27 yesterday-$1.22 and falling rapidly today . Where it stops, no one knows!
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:19 am
by AngryAsWell
Belfast judge vows to give' immediate consideration' to landmark legal bids to halt UK's planned Brexit
Bonnylad wrote:The £ is getting a good kicking today-$1.27 yesterday-$1.22 and falling rapidly today . Where it stops, no one knows!
For all the talk of a blip and computer error, the drop hasn't been fully reversed. 1.2332
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:23 am
by AngryAsWell
Sara Hagemann
@sarahagemann
UK govt previously sought work& advice from best experts. Just told I & many colleagues no longer qualify as not UKcitizens #Brexit @LSEnews
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Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:31 am
by TR'sGhost
SpinningHugo wrote:
Lonewolfie wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
The problem with McDonnell is not his ability. He is very able indeed I think. Apart from the Red Book slip, he has performed his role as shadow Chancellor as well as he could. He has censored himself very ably.
He is, de facto, the leader of the Labour party. His competence is not the problem with McDonnell.
McDonnell is far more dangerous individual than Corbyn. Corbyn would have quit long ago but for McDonnell.
The underperformance of Milne is a sharp contrast. Milne has the same kind of views as McD, but has wholly failed to show the flexibility required to do the job expected of him. He just can't play the part, in the way McD can.
OK - as you know, I have a different opinion to yours, so, as I don't see McDonnell as particularly 'dangerous', perhaps you'd like to expand on that to enable me understand your opinion better?
Ok. Corbyn is basically incompetent
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, for someone like me who doesn't share his views, he can be laughed off and at.
McDonnell is far more able. So, as soon as he became shadow Chancellor he stopped all the class war rhetoric of his backbench days. there is of course plenty of footage of his saying the usual class war things of his faction of the left, but he stopped all that when he took on his role. he was also instrumental in setting up the economic advisory panel, and adopting a fiscal policy that I think is beyond reproach. Adopting economic orthodoxy is not what he has spent his life arguing for, but he has very ably adapted to espousing it because that is what his role requires.
He is also the one who has added steel to Corbyn. At the point in the "coup" when Miliband called for Corbyn to go, I had thought he might quit. How can you operate as a leader when 80%+ of your Parliamentary party vote saying they have no confidence in you. it was McDonnell who stopped Corbyn from quitting. He has the extra bit of zeal.
I think McDonnell is de facto leader now. The power dynamic within his relationship with Corbyn has been set over 30 years, and is now clear.
And you know all this how? At the sooper seekrit meetings where they get their orders from Momentum were you?
Got their homes and offices bugged perhaps?
No. just more spin and more disinformation from someone who likes the sound of their own voice far too much.
I'm out of here for a while I think. The Hugo! Hugo! Hugo! show is depressing beyond measure and the opposite of encouraging. Which is, of course, its intent.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:31 am
by PorFavor
SpinningHugo wrote:
Lonewolfie wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
The problem with McDonnell is not his ability. He is very able indeed I think. Apart from the Red Book slip, he has performed his role as shadow Chancellor as well as he could. He has censored himself very ably.
He is, de facto, the leader of the Labour party. His competence is not the problem with McDonnell.
McDonnell is far more dangerous individual than Corbyn. Corbyn would have quit long ago but for McDonnell.
The underperformance of Milne is a sharp contrast. Milne has the same kind of views as McD, but has wholly failed to show the flexibility required to do the job expected of him. He just can't play the part, in the way McD can.
OK - as you know, I have a different opinion to yours, so, as I don't see McDonnell as particularly 'dangerous', perhaps you'd like to expand on that to enable me understand your opinion better?
Ok. Corbyn is basically incompetent
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, for someone like me who doesn't share his views, he can be laughed off and at.
McDonnell is far more able. So, as soon as he became shadow Chancellor he stopped all the class war rhetoric of his backbench days. there is of course plenty of footage of his saying the usual class war things of his faction of the left, but he stopped all that when he took on his role. he was also instrumental in setting up the economic advisory panel, and adopting a fiscal policy that I think is beyond reproach. Adopting economic orthodoxy is not what he has spent his life arguing for, but he has very ably adapted to espousing it because that is what his role requires.
He is also the one who has added steel to Corbyn. At the point in the "coup" when Miliband called for Corbyn to go, I had thought he might quit. How can you operate as a leader when 80%+ of your Parliamentary party vote saying they have no confidence in you. it was McDonnell who stopped Corbyn from quitting. He has the extra bit of zeal.
I think McDonnell is de facto leader now. The power dynamic within his relationship with Corbyn has been set over 30 years, and is now clear.
In what way do you see John McDonnell as dangerous? You believe that he has abilities and consider him to be the "de facto" Labour leader so I'm curious as to what your problem with it all actually is. Is it that he seems to be content to leave Jeremy Corbyn (unelectable in a General Election\PM context) as leader? He (JMcD) can't have ambitions to be the power behind the throne if his "catspaw" doesn't stand a chance of ever ascending said throne. Do you think he has some longer-term hidden agenda? I'm genuinely interested to learn your thoughts on this because I can't fathom them.
Edited to add -
For my part, I think I'd prefer John McDonnell as leader. I can't be doing with all this "good cop\bad cop" routine which doesn't seem to be getting Labour anywhere at al.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:33 am
by PorFavor
Away from the reshuffle and various Ukip shenanigans Conservative MP and former London mayoral candidate Zac Goldsmith has been speaking this morning, and has confirmed that he will stand down as an MP if a third runway is built at Heathrow and urged the government not to make “a catastrophic decision”. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:42 am
by SpinningHugo
PorFavor wrote:
In what way do you see John McDonnell as dangerous? You believe that he has abilities and consider him to be the "de facto" Labour leader so I'm curious as to what your problem with it all actually is. Is it that he seems to be content to leave Jeremy Corbyn (unelectable in a General Election\PM context) as leader? He (JMcD) can't have ambitions to be the power behind the throne if his "catspaw" doesn't stand a chance of ever ascending said throne. Do you think he has some longer-term hidden agenda? I'm genuinely interested to learn your thoughts on this because I can't fathom them.
The agenda of Corbyn/McDonnell has never been about winning the 2020 General Election. McDonnell is not an idiot, he knows that is never going to happen. Their agenda is the same one they have had for 30 years: transform the Labour movement. Everything they have done points in the same direction. McDonnell is the more dangerous because he is able, and may well succeed.
So, for someone like me who would like pretty much the government we had from 1997-2010 to be in power again, McDonnell is very dangerous indeed. He will ensure that never happens. I think, on his own terms, he has won already.
Re: Friday 7th October 2016
Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2016 11:47 am
by AnatolyKasparov
Diane Abbott is awful, I think we can all agree (though remarkably, a few people don't)
But one factor here might be considered - "making a statement" by appointing a minority figure to one of the "great offices" for the first time (whether actual or shadow) in the light of what we have seen from the Tories this week.
It suits JC in other ways I agree, but that is one way it could be (and is being) defended.
and other opinions are most definitely available 
) - what I heard (or the way I heard it, if you like) was an acceptance that the Government have accepted the result of the referendum as it allows their masters free reign - and because they have accepted it, you have no choice but to fight what's in front of you...which is nothing yet except more xenophobic rubbish, the 'Brexit is Brexit' thought-free tagline and not much else....and I, for one, am not convinced that the Three Stooges will be able to come up with anything at all...but it is where the current Government are.