Tuesday 11th October 2016

Post by **refitman** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 7:02 am

Morning all.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 7:37 am

Morning, folks,
Drop in and say hello when you come to visit the Great Exhibition of the North
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... s-12005579" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 7:40 am

Good morfternoon.

Hard Brexit will cost Treasury up to £66bn a year, ministers are told

Leaked papers suggest leaving EU single market will cause between 5.4% and 9.5% slump in GDP, with massive loss of tax revenue (Guardian)

Brought to you by the Acme Brought Forward System (HindleA posted this minor piece of information last night.)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... gle-market

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 8:05 am

Morning all - off to a school meeting soon so won't be around until lunchtime.

So...after making an idiot of himself over Chilean wine yesterday, Dan "wrong about everything" Hannan tries to recover.....and fails.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 8:14 am

Morning all.

Anyone catch Newsnight last night? Thornberry v Jenkin over the government's Brexit shenanigans. Brutal. She's on a roll.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 8:45 am

Just to be clear on what Hard Brexit is.

Hard Brexit is being out of the single market and the customs union.

You can have 'access' to the single market (North Korea has that) but still have Hard Brexit.

I have been listening to Starmer to try and work out what his position on the substance (as opposed to the procedure) for Brexit is.

(i) Labour accepts we are leaving the EU.

(2) He called for lower immigration, but blurred this with (nonsense) about lowering immigration by raising skills here (the UK has record employment levels)

(3) He talks of 'access to' and not 'membership of' the single market. McDonnell does that as well. I doubt Corbyn knows the difference.

So, I conclude that both main parties favour Hard Brexit.

The reason is that this is politically much easier. Even staying in the customs union would almost certainly require the UK to accept free movement, which the politicians seem to have accepted is now off the table (despite the fact that most of those who wanted to end it wouldnt have done so if they'd known it would make them individually much worse off).

So, there is no party at all (the SNP?) arguing for a 'soft' Brexit (the Lib Dems want to re-run the whole thing).

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:15 am

The pound dipped below $1.23 earlier. It's just a matter of time before fuel prices noticeably increase and with that the price of, erm.... everything?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:17 am

The price of some [all?] imported goods has already gone up.
A local shopkeeper told me the other week her newly ordered imported goods had increased by about 4%. That was before the more recent pound priced.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:17 am

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/oc ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Legal aid cuts creating two-tier justice system, says Amnesty

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:22 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

Anyone catch Newsnight last night? Thornberry v Jenkin over the government's Brexit shenanigans. Brutal. She's on a roll.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... t-10102016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:26 am

There ain't nothing like (this) Dame.

Parents’ fury as primary school prepares for surprise influx of secondary pupils

http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... ool-paxton" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:38 am

An interesting outside perspective on the UK government's motivation for pursuing a damaging "hard" Brexit:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... ki-2016-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:42 am

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... -committee" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who's who on Labour's National Executive Committee

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:48 am

Still around 40 shadow posts unfilled. So, more days of reshuffle to come.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:59 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Still around 40 shadow posts unfilled. So, more days of reshuffle to come.

Add Baroness Smith and Lord Bassam back to the Lords.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 10:00 am

Willow904 wrote:An interesting outside perspective on the UK government's motivation for pursuing a damaging "hard" Brexit:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... ki-2016-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My personal belief is that it's motivated by something far simpler and far, far shallower than that. Tank the economy now. Blame it all on Brexit and 'Labour talking down the economy'. Reap the rewards when your 'steady hand' stabilises and starts the economy growing again a year or so before the election, despite some growth being the likely outcome irrespective of what the government does.

Risky? Yes. Done before? Absolutely. As recently as 2010-2012.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 10:21 am

Labour does *not* favour hard Brexit, and to state otherwise is a lie. Simple as.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 10:31 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:An interesting outside perspective on the UK government's motivation for pursuing a damaging "hard" Brexit:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... ki-2016-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My personal belief is that it's motivated by something far simpler and far, far shallower than that. Tank the economy now. Blame it all on Brexit and 'Labour talking down the economy'. Reap the rewards when your 'steady hand' stabilises and starts the economy growing again a year or so before the election, despite some growth being the likely outcome irrespective of what the government does.

Risky? Yes. Done before? Absolutely. As recently as 2010-2012.

Morfternoon aftereve all...

Alternatively, they could just be stunningly incompetent and arrogant...nothing so far makes me think otherwise...and WTF is happening to Murkydochia? Warnings in 'The Times' that Brexit will affect the economy? Did the old goat know they were going to run that? (Rhetorical - he's effectively OKd what they print since the 80s)...so why? He's been pushing against the EU (along with the other foreign media billionaires) for as long as I can remember...perhaps he thinks that the rule of law will break down to such an extent that the Fake Sheik won't bite him on the wrinkled creaking derriere.

A positive from Brexit? The EU taking action on fraudulent and criminal banks....and with no seat at the table, how will a he-mare sty (anag) and her cronies prevent any investigation or action?

@TC2 (from Sunday)

Lone Wolfie - Podemos "seeks to address the problems of inequality, unemployment and economic malaise".
What's their view on possible action?

I'm not sure I fully understand the question but assume it's related to my sig - 'podemos' also means 'we can' in English...I have no direct knowledge of the political grouping of the same name, other than I fully support their aims and am hopeful that their message (a bit like Bernie in the US and Corbyn in Britain (apparently 'austerity' is so yesterday)) is getting across - that people are not economic units and everyone has a right to a decent life and to be included in society...I put it in there as some sort of show of solidarity with our socially democratic European brothers and sisters

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 10:38 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Still around 40 shadow posts unfilled. So, more days of reshuffle to come.

There is no need to "fill" every junior post if it comes to that.

Indeed there is a good argument the front bench (ie "payroll" vote) should be cut back on both sides of the house.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 10:47 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour does *not* favour hard Brexit, and to state otherwise is a lie. Simple as.

My view (fwiw) is Labour seem to be saying 'OK then - you want Brexit - off you jolly well trot and come back with your plan and we'll see what we think'...thereby giving 'em enough rope?

Do we think Gidiot will be supportive or non-supportive of the Tory Brexit position - apparently he's about to give evidence (with that other well know loyalist

Heseltine) to the Treasury Select Committee

...and I'm not sure if this man is popular in here (he's always been a hero here in Hope (just north of Peterborough)) but heartening (for me) to see an old class warrior spitting a bit of venom...

Roger Waters Eviscerates 'Racist, Sexist Pig' Trump & Urges Israel 'To End Occupation' at Desert Trip

Even though Oldchella attendees missed the second presidential debate to see The Who and Roger Waters on Sunday night, they still saw plenty of Trump via a variety of doctored images on the massive screen behind Waters: Trump as a sheep; Trump holding a dildo as a rifle; Trump with sagging breasts; Trump in a KKK hood; Trump making the Nazi salute; Trump with a micro penis. As Waters sang the line, "ha ha, charade you are," Trump's face was emblazoned with the word "CHARADE."

http://www.billboard.com/articles/colum ... esert-trip

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 10:51 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour does *not* favour hard Brexit, and to state otherwise is a lie. Simple as.

xit

It is Labour policy to say it is opposed to 'hard Brexit' whilst not favouring remaining in the single market, which is the only soft Brexit there is.

A lie?

There are, of course, Labour MPs who favour remaining in the single market. They are not liars. That is not the frontbench position.

Anybody at all who says they favour "access" to the single market, is a bullshit merchant of the worst kind. Hannan favours access. North Korea has it.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 10:56 am

Top Ukip councillor brands party 'toxified' and defects to Tories - Southern Daily Echo
https://apple.news/ARzxPHySyPoascphVTO-VaQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Remember, the party that represents the working classes. Cough.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 10:56 am

Meanwhile, elsewhere (in the real world)...this could and should be good news...

: bur1202.gif (40.56 KiB) Viewed 14338 times

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:04 am

Why new ministers should be forced to carry out their own stupid ideas - the guardian
https://apple.news/AAURrOK90ScyFx3JA1mHfDA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unsurprisingly, the National Programme for IT proved to be a £10bn onmishambles.

Aside from that error in the article (an omnishambles? Yes. A £10bn one? No.), a few good points about the pitfalls in our so-called democracy that are reasonably made.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:09 am

Parliament's planned repair costs could be 'billions more' than predicted - Evening Standard
https://apple.news/AQ9WDxrDlQoiZzij5Dc9WnQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to an SNP MP on the committee involved. Irrespective of whether or not he's right, parliament should be moved to one of the northern England metropolises anyway, so that it's central to the country as a whole and encourages a shift in focus from 'London everything' to one of UK everything.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:12 am

You are drawing conclusions that simply cannot be borne by the weight of evidence, SH.

Starmer and others are now emphasising "economy first". That is simply incompatible with any sort of hard Brexit. And I would argue that with this sort of thing it is the broad argument an opposition makes that matters more than textual nuances. Certainly until the government comes out with actual proposals, anyway. If they ever actually do, of course........

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:14 am

London garden bridge report says £20m of public money may have been wasted - the guardian
https://apple.news/A_m-u3p8KT4y67Jko_BUrOw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You don't say.

There remains a significant risk that the project will not go ahead,” it said. The Garden Bridge Trust has yet to secure the necessary sub-lease on the area of the South Bank where the bridge will land, the report notes, while the main contractor has been put on standby and construction has been delayed for at least 18 months.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:19 am

Labour favours hard boiled eggs. Fact. I know because I said it was so. Soft boiled eggs are for Lib Dems. Until they get into bed with Conservatives and then it's hard boiled eggs all the way. Yeah.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:29 am

Basic flood protection 'missing in high risk areas' - BBC News
https://apple.news/AX_cLc9pASjeCqRyrMCKTLA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arse is fighting with elbow. Nothing getting done as a result.

PS. Labour favours hard cheese. Fact.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:33 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:You are drawing conclusions that simply cannot be borne by the weight of evidence, SH.

Starmer and others are now emphasising "economy first". That is simply incompatible with any sort of hard Brexit. And I would argue that with this sort of thing it is the broad argument an opposition makes that matters more than textual nuances. Certainly until the government comes out with actual proposals, anyway. If they ever actually do, of course........

I am sorry, but I think your party loyalty has won out (again).

The one and only way of avoiding Hard Brexit is to remain in the single market. This is possible. We could join the EEA. Paul Mason was arguing for it (rightly). Less good would be to remain in the customs union, but we'd almost certainly have to accept freedom of movement even to get that.

Platitudes about "putting the economy first" are just bullshit I am afraid. They are not a position on what Brexit looks like.

To be clear. The primary blame for this disaster lies with the government. But, the only viable alternative to Hard Brexit is not one favoured by the Labour party.

Labour's position is not to provide an alternative. it is to say "we want a vote" and "we're not in government." The giveaway is the repeated use of "access". "Access" equals Hard Brexit.

You have to get away from "My Party, right or wrong."

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:36 am

On Ada Lovelace Day, we break down how diverse tech companies actually are - the guardian
https://apple.news/AotRARFCPT9iUIJjU-l_jpQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally, I've been fortunate enough to work in fields and industries where the gender mix has been close to 50:50. I can't possibly imagine how disheartening it would be to work in an industry that is predominantly male.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 12:04 pm

Back from my meeting. And this is a humdinger.

Durand Academy Trust funding to be terminated

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/durand-academy ... terminated

The government has announced it will proceed with the termination of Durand Academy Trust’s funding agreement after the chain refused to severe ties with its controversial former highly paid executive headteacher.

The Education Funding Agency has issued Durand with a notice of intention to terminate its agreement, claiming the trust has failed to comply with six of eight requirements set out in an earlier warning.

This is not a decision we have taken lightly – Lord Nash

In July, the trust – championed by former education secretary Michael Gove – was told to address concerns over finances and potential conflicts of interest and sever ties with its chair of governors and former executive head, Sir Greg Martin (pictured).

Schools Week revealed last month that the trust had refused to meet the demands and vowed to fight any termination in court, claiming the EFA had “no right” to ask for the changes to be made.

There's a side-effect to giving academies too much independence...what happens when they refuse to go along with your requests? The High Court beckons...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 12:53 pm

Brexiteer Daniel Hannan just proved we probably do need experts after all - Mirror Online
https://apple.news/AqtiCM7eVTeix3Cw--U2ZuQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reprising Roger's theme earlier - a selection of the comments about it on Twitter. The last one in the article is rather good.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 1:17 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... first-time" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK loses top 10 spot in global energy ranking for the first time
World Energy Council warns of potential gap in energy supply due to government’s lack of clarity and myriad changes

https://www.worldenergy.org/publication ... y-systems/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 2:26 pm

I quite like the Owen Jones label of Chaotic Brexit. Hard has too many links to tough, courageous, brave.

Clusterfuck Brexit would be my personal preference but I can see a slight problem with that.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 2:40 pm

StephenDolan wrote:I quite like the Owen Jones label of Chaotic Brexit. Hard has too many links to tough, courageous, brave.

Clusterfuck Brexit would be my personal preference but I can see a slight problem with that.

Too many syllables?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 2:44 pm

6m ago 14:35

Turning away from the Syria debate, here is John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, commenting on the leaked Treasury report saying leaving the EU without a trade deal could cost the Exchequer up to £66bn a year. (See 9.10am.)

The Tories should be sticking to their manifesto promise and fighting tooth and nail for access to the single market. Instead they are abandoning Britain’s clear national interests by putting narrow party political concerns first. (Politics Live, Guardian)

I think putting party political concerns first is how we got here in the first place. He could have mentioned that, too.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 2:57 pm

refitman wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:I quite like the Owen Jones label of Chaotic Brexit. Hard has too many links to tough, courageous, brave.

Clusterfuck Brexit would be my personal preference but I can see a slight problem with that.
Too many syllables?

Great name for a band though!

Playing a mix of Eurodisco, Can and Golden Earring...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 3:26 pm

Is our world a simulation? Why some scientists say it's more likely than not - the guardian
https://apple.news/A-F1FO5A3R463MG_vPzdq-w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If it is one, couldn't they have done a better job with it?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 3:28 pm

Norway rejects UK request for joint trade taskforce, report says - the guardian
https://apple.news/APgkXe894SHScRC0ngDn9Sw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trade deals. Easy as pie. They'll be falling all over themselves to give us on... oh.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 3:41 pm

Anyone in contact with those that have left in the past 6 months know if they'll consider returning?

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 4:07 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Anyone in contact with those that have left in the past 6 months know if they'll consider returning?

Speaking strictly for myself, but echoing the opinions of those who I am in contact with, the reasons we stopped contributing to FTN have not changed.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 4:17 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Anyone in contact with those that have left in the past 6 months know if they'll consider returning?
Speaking strictly for myself, but echoing the opinions of those who I am in contact with, the reasons we stopped contributing to FTN have not changed.

I see, thanks for the update though.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 4:31 pm

Better lurking than not at all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 4:34 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37621595" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Merthyr Town tell fans to 'pay what they want' for Dorchester game

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 4:34 pm

Would also be nice to hear from GrimSqueaker, Tubby Isaacs, and a host of others who politely voiced their difference of opinion about the leadership.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 4:38 pm

Have missed the ferret and its handler.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 4:39 pm

Gerald Howarth: a new Royal yacht "is not a luxury but a must have." Scrapping Britannia in 1997 was "one of the darkest moments of my life"

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 4:40 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Anyone in contact with those that have left in the past 6 months know if they'll consider returning?
Speaking strictly for myself, but echoing the opinions of those who I am in contact with, the reasons we stopped contributing to FTN have not changed.

I think the dress code is rather restrictive. We should relax it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 4:41 pm

Everybody put a claim in for a yacht citing similar levels of distress.