Thursday 13th October 2016

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 5:59 am

Morning

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 6:00 am

Still seethin'

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 6:03 am

The EU isn't perfect. Not least we have the likes of Nigel Farage as an MEP. And there are other people there whose views don't align with my own. But on the whole its intentions are good and I'd rather stay in it and make it work, than abandon it to Farage and his ilk so I can bitch and moan about how crap it is without me there to make it better.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 6:51 am

People Like Jeremy Corbyn's Policies When They Don't Realise They're His, Poll Suggests - The Huffington Post - UK
https://apple.news/AAQiKLoRFRUGxYYnHABGSNg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The MRC blamed the “disconnect” on parts of the media for failing to “seriously report” on Corbyn’s policies.

Justin Schlosberg, Chair of the MRC, said: “We feel that much of the media have been more preoccupied with dismissing Jeremy Corbyn as ‘unelectable’ than with seriously reporting on the policies he represents.

“Since the economy is often the issue that wins or loses general elections, it is imperative that journalists now give due attention and scrutiny to the economic alternatives put forward by the official opposition, as well as other anti-austerity parties.

“This is not about a failure of communication on the part of Labour so much as a failure of nerve on the part of a great swathe of the news media. Without a change in approach, our democracy is in deep crisis.” [Amen to that]

There have been repeated studies suggesting the media is biased against Corbyn, with the London School of Economics finding that 75% of press articles in one month “failed to accurately report his views”.

Media commentator and Guardian columnist Roy Greenslade agreed that Labour’s policies under Corbyn had not been reported in detail, but he told HuffPost UK it was unfair to blame media outlets.

“Overall I would say that Labour’s policies – if they exist, and I’m being cynical already – have not been covered in any depth,” he said.

[The policies do not have to exist for the parties position to be clear though. E.g. it is very clear that Labour want to renationalise the railways and remove private sector vampirism from the NHS. Yet because of the likes of Roy and his colleagues not reporting on things like this in a balanced and sensible way, readers don't know it. Which is the point allegedly exposed by the polling described in the article.]

...

“In fairness, that would be the situation for any opposition party [what about for the government, Roy? Plenty of their 'policy' positions are gossamer thin guff that goes unchallenged by you and your colleagues] after an election with a new leader. It takes time to create policies, so in some ways it would be unfair to blame the media in those circumstances.”

...

Jonathan Hewett, Director of Interactive and Newspaper Journalism at City, University of London, said research has shown bias towards Corbyn in the media, “which is unsurprising in the case of some newspapers.”

“But other factors probably also underlie the apparent ‘disconnect’ between support for policies and for political parties – it’s not simply down to how journalists report on policy” he added. [for example, how the media lionises people (Cameron, Osborne, May) and belittles people (Miliband, Corbyn) who don't warrant it]

“Support for political parties is linked to how voters perceive party leaders, for example, including their credibility and competence – it’s not just about policies.

The mealy-mouthed apologism of the press reps in that article is sickening. That last quote I've emphasised... I wonder where it is that the impression of credibility and competence of any leader comes from? It wouldn't be from the way they're (mis)represented in the media that this bellend has just admitted are biased, would it?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 6:59 am

We know the press are the problem in the UK. The biggest issue of Ed not getting in was Leveson. I think we believe that social media will work differently (I'm unconvinced). Most people my age or older, read the newspaper their parents read and believe what they read in it. Most find it impossible to believe that the press would wilfully misrepresent.

Without a change in approach, our democracy is in deep crisis.

V true and our biggest challenge. How do we approach it?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 7:01 am

Today's starter for 170:

Free movement of goods and services

We are assuming that the government has considered the following options for its continued postBrexit trading relationship with the European Union:

(i) maintaining full membership of the Single Market, as at present;

(ii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Economic Area;

(iii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Free Trade Agreement;

(iv) negotiating a Customs union with the EU;

(v) negotiating a bespoke, bilateral free trade deal with the EU;

(vi) adopting a unilateral free trade policy with all trading partners; and

(vii) reverting to WTO rules for future trade arrangements, including the imposition of tariffs.

In that light, please answer the following questions:

2. Of the options it is still considering, would any oblige the UK to continue abiding by Single Market regulations, and implementing new ones, despite being unable to influence their content?

I think we probably know the answer to this one. It's all of them except options (vi) and (vii). But the downsides to those 2 options far, far outweigh any possible benefits they probably wouldn't even deliver.

Edit: of course, that's the point of asking this question - to show that the Brexiteers are selling their supporters a pup. You can't get what they told you they would give you. So what they're now saying they're going to give you is (a) not what they promised and (b) intensely shit for the country. And you voted for it...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 7:07 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:We know the press are the problem in the UK. The biggest issue of Ed not getting in was Leveson. I think we believe that social media will work differently (I'm unconvinced). Most people my age or older, read the newspaper their parents read and believe what they read in it. Most find it impossible to believe that the press would wilfully misrepresent.

Without a change in approach, our democracy is in deep crisis.
V true and our biggest challenge. How do we approach it?

It isn't possible until a party gets into power and does something - implement Leveson, break the cartel of ownership - to fix it. All 'we' can do is counter the misrepresentation as best we can, but the problem with that is we will not get heard by the majority of the people that need to listen to it.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 7:21 am

From Clanger.summaries.co.eu

(i) maintaining full membership of the Single Market, as at present;
an association of countries trading with each other without restrictions or tariffs. The European single market came into effect on 1 January 1993.
The Single Market refers to the EU as one territory without any internal borders or other regulatory obstacles to the free movement of goods and services. A functioning Single Market stimulates competition and trade, improves efficiency, raises quality, and helps cut prices.The European Single Market is one of the EU’s greatest achievements. It has fuelled economic growth and made the everyday life of European businesses and consumers easier. https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(ii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Economic Area;
The EU countries are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK.

The EEA includes EU countries and also Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the EU’s single market.

Switzerland is neither an EU nor EEA member but is part of the single market - this means Swiss nationals have the same rights to live and work in the UK as other EEA nationals.

(iii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Free Trade Agreement;
As tariffs are relatively low in world trade today, trade barriers lie behind the customs borders: hence the EU aims to conclude Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreements (DCFTA) that, on top of removing tariffs, also open up markets on services, investment, public procurement and include regulatory issues.
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countr ... dex_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(iv) negotiating a Customs union with the EU;
a group of states that have agreed to charge the same import duties as each other and usually to allow free trade between themselves.
Brexit adviser: leaving EU customs union will cost UK £25bn a year
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... on-uk-25bn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(v) negotiating a bespoke, bilateral free trade deal with the EU;
The EU is a party to trade agreements and other agreements with a trade component both in the WTO context and bilaterally with certain countries and regions. http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2 ... 149622.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(vi) adopting a unilateral free trade policy with all trading partners; and
A Unilateral trade agreement would be any agreement that is imposed on one nation by another, and benefits one nation only. Many smaller, developing nations are afraid of trade agreements involving developed nations because the imbalance of power could result in a unilateral benefit to the developed nation

(vii) reverting to WTO rules for future trade arrangements, including the imposition of tariffs.
The WTO agreements are lengthy and complex because they are legal texts covering a wide range of activities. They deal with: agriculture, textiles and clothing, banking, telecommunications, government purchases, industrial standards and product safety, food sanitation regulations, intellectual property, and much more. But a number of simple, fundamental principles run throughout all of these documents. These principles are the foundation of the multilateral trading system. https://www.wto.org/English/thewto_e/wh ... act2_e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 7:27 am

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1020297?se ... b_contents" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Propaganda and the Press.
From:
Pressure Groups and Propaganda. On the American Press. From 1935

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 7:37 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Propaganda and mass persuasion: a historical encyclopedia 1500 to the present
This fascinating survey provides a comprehensive introduction to propaganda, its changing nature, its practitioners, and its impact on the past five centuries of world history. Written by leading experts, it covers the masters of the art from Joseph Goebbels to Mohandas Gandhi and examines enormously influential works of persuasion such as "Uncle Tom's Cabin," techniques such as films and posters, and key concepts like black propaganda and brainwashing.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 7:43 am

Dominic Raab. What a c*@t.

Morning all.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 7:49 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... article-50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Amid death threats and intensifying political disagreement, three of the most senior judges in England and Wales will hear claims that the government cannot trigger Brexit without parliamentary approval.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 7:57 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... pound-euro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Britain, get real: Brexit means whatever the EU says it means

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:06 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... -interview
Sutton Trust finds 40% of state secondary teachers rarely or never advise their brightest pupils to apply – often saying ‘they wouldn’t be happy there’

they are probably right - see also ...

Privilege
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9294.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Khan's many perspectives--as a minority student in a rich WASP school, as a teacher interacting with his students, and as a researcher observing his subjects--gave him unique access to understanding the American elite. . . . Khan's objectivity turns to pessimism as he describes the result of greater diversity, which he finds 'does not mean mobility and it certainly does not mean equality.'"--Barbara Fisher, Boston Globe

We need to break the stranglehold of Oxbridge over other Universities - only then will we create change. Another thing I bore people catatonic about but the Sutton Trust report on Oxbridge and decision-making power is terrifying. http://www.suttontrust.com/researcharch ... ople-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Graduates from Oxford and Cambridge enjoy starting salaries approximately £7,600 (42%) higher per year, on average, than graduates from post-1992 universities. They also earn starting salaries approximately £3,300 higher than graduates from other highly selective Sutton Trust 13 (ST13) universities.
http://www.suttontrust.com/researcharch ... bydegrees/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:08 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 58171.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
David Cameron rated third worst Prime Minister since end of World War Two
‘For all his achievements as a successful coalition Prime Minister, David Cameron’s reputation and place in history seems destined to be defined by Brexit and his calling and losing the referendum’

Am sure this will change over time (Cameron moving down)

How hard can it be eh Dave? You destructive arrogant ####

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:13 am

Thatcher below Attlee. That's going to get some people rather agitated.

And, yes, Cameron can only sink further.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:15 am

The Mail gets worse.

In today's paper, about Ed Miliband:

''donkey teeth and bulgy eyes'' ''annoying...drone'' ''this clown'' ''total noodle'' ''slippery as a shampooed tennis ball'' ''trade union puppet masters'' ''up on his hooves again yacking'' ''flubbering former special adviser''.

''he is a fool but,like many fools, he is dangerous. Pass that fly swat, someone.''

Richard Littlejohn's twollop ? No, Quentin Letts who should know better.
That last sentence is horrible. Letts isn't just a poster on social media.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:20 am

BREXIT-PROOF genuine undoctored ad

: brexitproof.jpg (25.5 KiB) Viewed 9039 times

Post by **adam** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:24 am

I haven't read all of yesterday yet so apologies if we've been here already but I thought the reason why there are 170 questions is that there are 170 days before the end of March, May's deadline for triggering Article 50. So maybe we can talk about one a day.

The first one is

We are assuming that the government has considered the following options for its continued postBrexit trading relationship with the European Union:

(i) maintaining full membership of the Single Market, as at present;

(ii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Economic Area;

(iii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Free Trade Agreement;

(iv) negotiating a Customs union with the EU;

(v) negotiating a bespoke, bilateral free trade deal with the EU;

(vi) adopting a unilateral free trade policy with all trading partners; and (vii) reverting to WTO rules for future trade arrangements, including the imposition of tariffs.

In that light, please answer the following questions:

1. Which of the above options has the government definitively ruled out, which does it still have under consideration, and which does it regard as its preferred option(s) for the negotiations?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:34 am

yahyah wrote:The Mail gets worse.

In today's paper, about Ed Miliband:

''donkey teeth and bulgy eyes'' ''annoying...drone'' ''this clown'' ''total noodle'' ''slippery as a shampooed tennis ball'' ''trade union puppet masters'' ''up on his hooves again yacking'' ''flubbering former special adviser''.

''he is a fool but,like many fools, he is dangerous. Pass that fly swat, someone.''

Richard Littlejohn's twollop ? No, Quentin Letts who should know better.
That last sentence is horrible. Letts isn't just a poster on social media.

Letts is a nasty little man always sneering at someone. I liked this slapdown yesterday.

Letts tried to take down Bercow - how did that work out? Haven't seen anyone complain about the Speaker for a long while - backbenchers know that he's a good thing for them.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:36 am

adam wrote:I haven't read all of yesterday yet so apologies if we've been here already but I thought the reason why there are 170 questions is that there are 170 days before the end of March, May's deadline for triggering Article 50. So maybe we can talk about one a day.

The first one is
We are assuming that the government has considered the following options for its continued postBrexit trading relationship with the European Union:

(i) maintaining full membership of the Single Market, as at present;

(ii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Economic Area;

(iii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Free Trade Agreement;

(iv) negotiating a Customs union with the EU;

(v) negotiating a bespoke, bilateral free trade deal with the EU;

(vi) adopting a unilateral free trade policy with all trading partners; and (vii) reverting to WTO rules for future trade arrangements, including the imposition of tariffs.

In that light, please answer the following questions:

1. Which of the above options has the government definitively ruled out, which does it still have under consideration, and which does it regard as its preferred option(s) for the negotiations?

I added a summary above for i) to vi) - do we actually know which of these in Toryland/outside world are - (or we think should be) - on or off the table

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:39 am

Raab a disgrace on radio 4

The claim that the 'people's will' trumps the rulle of law is the cry of the fascist.

The art 50 case will fail, but there is nothing wrong with bringing it.

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... yers-coup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:45 am

Great atmosphere on last night's thread. Have just read it and the badinage was really lovely to read, warm and witty.

Glad JA had a better day yesterday too. Hope it's another one today, and for other FTNers who are low or unwell, or caring for those who are.

We're getting away from Brexit mess and reality, going walking on the coastal path and looking for dolphins in Cardigan Bay.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:45 am

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/pol ... since-war/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Cameron rated ‘third worst Prime Minister since the war’

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:46 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
adam wrote:I haven't read all of yesterday yet so apologies if we've been here already but I thought the reason why there are 170 questions is that there are 170 days before the end of March, May's deadline for triggering Article 50. So maybe we can talk about one a day.

The first one is
We are assuming that the government has considered the following options for its continued postBrexit trading relationship with the European Union:

(i) maintaining full membership of the Single Market, as at present;

(ii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Economic Area;

(iii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Free Trade Agreement;

(iv) negotiating a Customs union with the EU;

(v) negotiating a bespoke, bilateral free trade deal with the EU;

(vi) adopting a unilateral free trade policy with all trading partners; and
(vii) reverting to WTO rules for future trade arrangements, including the imposition of tariffs.

In that light, please answer the following questions:

1. Which of the above options has the government definitively ruled out, which does it still have under consideration, and which does it regard as its preferred option(s) for the negotiations?
I added a summary above for i) to vi) - do we actually know which of these in Toryland/outside world are - (or we think should be) - on or off the table

And also add:
2. Of the options it is still considering, would any oblige the UK to continue abiding by Single Market regulations, and implementing new ones, despite being unable to influence their content?
i) yes ii) yes iii) yes iv) presumably v) presumably vi) suspect we would end up the small nation vii) looks nightmarish but what do I know

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:47 am

Attlee was rated best

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:48 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Colwyn Bay care home latest to cease business
Rosewood Healthcare nursing home blames finances as its elderly tenants with dementia are forced to relocate

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:54 am

I'm assuming this won't get much coverage in certain quarters because of the reasons given.

Safety fears in two-thirds of England's A&Es, inspectors say

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37634680

Safety concerns have been raised about two-thirds of A&E units in England, with inspectors blaming underfunding of council care services for causing overcrowding in hospitals.

The Care Quality Commission review said emergency care was one of the poorest-performing parts of the system.

It cited safety as a major weakness, with 22 of 184 units rated inadequate and another 95 requiring improvement.

The government said extra money was being put into services to help.

But the CQC questioned whether this was enough.

The regulator said rationing of council care, including access to home help for daily tasks such as washing and dressing and care homes, was pushing more old and frail people into hospital.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:54 am

SH-hyperbole surely,or is it only when others use it?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 9:02 am

CQC Report here

http://www.cqc.org.uk/content/state-of-care" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 9:09 am

No reference on the Today coverage to what Burnham had been saying in the run-up to the general election. It was a long standing issue. Made it sound inevitable.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 9:23 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-health" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 9:33 am

Here is a Labour politician rightly arguing that we should remain *members* of the single market

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Ed Miliband in Parliament yesterday. Starmer got lots of praise. Milibabnd was much better)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 9:38 am

Hugo - again out of curiosity. Is there a fundamentally benign reason for treating us to your visits and insights?
Would be good to understand your goals here.
Ta.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 9:43 am

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... -athletics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jessica Ennis-Hill retires from athletics: ‘I want to leave my sport on a high’

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/37641093" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 9:56 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Today's starter for 170:

Free movement of goods and services

We are assuming that the government has considered the following options for its continued postBrexit trading relationship with the European Union:

(i) maintaining full membership of the Single Market, as at present;

(ii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Economic Area;

(iii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Free Trade Agreement;

(iv) negotiating a Customs union with the EU;

(v) negotiating a bespoke, bilateral free trade deal with the EU;

(vi) adopting a unilateral free trade policy with all trading partners; and

(vii) reverting to WTO rules for future trade arrangements, including the imposition of tariffs.

In that light, please answer the following questions:

2. Of the options it is still considering, would any oblige the UK to continue abiding by Single Market regulations, and implementing new ones, despite being unable to influence their content?
I think we probably know the answer to this one. It's all of them except options (vi) and (vii). But the downsides to those 2 options far, far outweigh any possible benefits they probably wouldn't even deliver.

Edit: of course, that's the point of asking this question - to show that the Brexiteers are selling their supporters a pup. You can't get what they told you they would give you. So what they're now saying they're going to give you is (a) not what they promised and (b) intensely shit for the country. And you voted for it...

Ah but sovereignty, control our borders,immigration,getting our country back.

Far too many are more rock than sponge,more mouth than ear.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:00 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 58746.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Housing Minister blocks thousands of homes at request of Tory MP Philip Davies
Gavin Barwell was accused of suspending the development as a 'mate's favour'

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:02 am

yahyah wrote:The Mail gets worse.

In today's paper, about Ed Miliband:

''donkey teeth and bulgy eyes'' ''annoying...drone'' ''this clown'' ''total noodle'' ''slippery as a shampooed tennis ball'' ''trade union puppet masters'' ''up on his hooves again yacking'' ''flubbering former special adviser''.

''he is a fool but,like many fools, he is dangerous. Pass that fly swat, someone.''

Richard Littlejohn's twollop ? No, Quentin Letts who should know better.
That last sentence is horrible. Letts isn't just a poster on social media.

Have to disagree there - he has always been a total and absolute twonk

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:05 am

http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2016/10/of ... ER.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Official: Universal Credit is “less generous” than tax credits

For the first time, an authoritative statutory body has recognised that the cuts to Universal Credit announced in last summer’s Budget will mean that it is much less generous than was originally planned, making it effectively a cut when compared with Working Tax Credit and Child Tax Credit which it replaces.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:13 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 58621.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Trump and Clinton tied on 26 per cent in Republican stronghold of Utah, poll shows
The last time Utah voted Democrat was in 1964

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:18 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Hugo - again out of curiosity. Is there a fundamentally benign reason for treating us to your visits and insights?
Would be good to understand your goals here.
Ta.

Same as everyone else.

I just find myself in sharper disagreement over the path the Labour party has taken, a divide that has grown worse since 2015.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:20 am

If Clinton wins in a few weeks I guess that'll strengthen the dollar slightly?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:20 am

Male students fail to tell the difference between lads' mag jokes and quotes from rapists in psychological study
Academic says lads' mags 'can shape the expression of a prejudice that is generally considered unacceptable in an egalitarian society'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 58481.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Three studies, published in the journal Psychology of Men and Masculinities, were carried out into how sexism could be normalised among young men.

Yes. Normalisation. The basic, predictable and lurking volcano of widespread anti-immigration politics and social media clickbait crap.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:22 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Hugo - again out of curiosity. Is there a fundamentally benign reason for treating us to your visits and insights?
Would be good to understand your goals here.
Ta.

I dunno, his praising Ed M is certainly noteworthy

(he was indeed very good, btw)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:24 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Hugo - again out of curiosity. Is there a fundamentally benign reason for treating us to your visits and insights?
Would be good to understand your goals here.
Ta.

Same as everyone else.

I just find myself in sharper disagreement over the path the Labour party has taken, a divide that has grown worse since 2015.

Personally I like a range of views (admittedly within limits, I am neither as broad minded nor as reasonable AK or PfY) but there's a general sense that the default Eeyore position isn't everyone's cup of tea. Do you have other outlets where the minds are more like as it were?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:44 am

Rudd failed in bid to exempt students from migrant curbs
The prime minister has taken a hard line against the home secretary and university lobbyists

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ ... -hjjm9xj7z" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How long will it be before the Tory's turn against May and remove her ?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 10:53 am

The intro to Labour's 170 questions makes me think of this

Democracy is the worst form of goverment except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time

Possibly the difference between 'soft' EU Leavers and Remainers is that the latter have thought a bit more about the alternatives.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 11:13 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Today's starter for 170:
Free movement of goods and services
We are assuming that the government has considered the following options for its continued postBrexit trading relationship with the European Union:
(i) maintaining full membership of the Single Market, as at present;
(ii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Economic Area;
(iii) negotiating UK terms for membership of the European Free Trade Agreement;
(iv) negotiating a Customs union with the EU;
(v) negotiating a bespoke, bilateral free trade deal with the EU;
(vi) adopting a unilateral free trade policy with all trading partners; and
(vii) reverting to WTO rules for future trade arrangements, including the imposition of tariffs.
In that light, please answer the following questions:

2. Of the options it is still considering, would any oblige the UK to continue abiding by Single Market regulations, and implementing new ones, despite being unable to influence their content?
I think we probably know the answer to this one. It's all of them except options (vi) and (vii). But the downsides to those 2 options far, far outweigh any possible benefits they probably wouldn't even deliver.

Edit: of course, that's the point of asking this question - to show that the Brexiteers are selling their supporters a pup.
You can't get what they told you they would give you. So what they're now saying they're going to give you is
(a) not what they promised and (b) intensely shit for the country. And you voted for it...

(cJA edit, emphasis)

^^^^Yes^^^^

Good-morning, everyone, apologies for striking in here without having read all the morning's thread.
I tried communicating this on yesterday's thread. JonnyT1234 wrote what I meant emphasised above.
Labour's Scrutiny of Tory's Brexit isn't sloganeering. It's reality.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 11:25 am

In what chronological order will these occur?

The date of another Scottish referendum, another Labour leadership challenge officially launched, another England football manager fired, a general election called.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 11:45 am

StephenDolan wrote:In what chronological order will these occur?

The date of another Scottish referendum, another Labour leadership challenge officially launched, another England football manager fired, a general election called.

Via the power of Hugo-vision the following may or may not happen:

Another Labour leadership election
England football manager fired
Another Labour leadership election
England football manager fired
Another Labour leadership election
England football manager fired
Another Labour leadership election
England football manager fired
A general election
Another Labour leadership election
England football manager fired
Another Labour leadership election
England football manager fired
Another Labour leadership election
England football manager fired
Another Labour leadership election
England football manager fired
A Scottish referendum