Monday 17th October 2016

Post by **refitman** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 6:59 am

Morning all.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 7:41 am

IDS making a fool of himself in the Times.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 8:30 am

Worse than when he called Trump a 'very decent man' ?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 9:18 am

"The Times they are a changjn'"

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 9:19 am

Morning all.

£22bn in efficiency savings. That's a lot of fat cat NHS bosses?

Under the Lansley reforms I thought that most of the budget now resides with the GPs commissioning groups?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 9:27 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

£22bn in efficiency savings. That's a lot of fat cat NHS bosses?

Under the Lansley reforms I thought that most of the budget now resides with the GPs commissioning groups?

It does.

Maybe they ought to be looking at how they operate and the admin of them first.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 9:46 am

Those loony lefties hey?

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

' The Treason Felony Act be amended to include the following offences:
'To imagine, devise, promote, work, or encourage others, to support UK becoming a member of the European Union;
- To conspire with foreign powers to make the UK, or part of the UK, become a member of the EU.'

More details
It is becoming clear that many politicians and others are unwilling to accept the democratic decision of the British people to leave the EU. Brexit must not be put at risk in the years and decades ahead. For this reason we the undersigned request that the Treason Felony Act be amended as set out in this petition.

(These provisions to become law the day the United Kingdom leaves the EU).'

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 9:49 am

Some lunatic Tory councillor.

A lot of people assumed that it was a parody given his name - Christian Holliday - but apparently he exists.

https://www.guildfordconservatives.com/ ... n-holliday" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 10:26 am

StephenDolan wrote:Those loony lefties hey?

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

' The Treason Felony Act be amended to include the following offences:
'To imagine, devise, promote, work, or encourage others, to support UK becoming a member of the European Union;
- To conspire with foreign powers to make the UK, or part of the UK, become a member of the EU.'

More details
It is becoming clear that many politicians and others are unwilling to accept the democratic decision of the British people to leave the EU. Brexit must not be put at risk in the years and decades ahead. For this reason we the undersigned request that the Treason Felony Act be amended as set out in this petition.

(These provisions to become law the day the United Kingdom leaves the EU).'

Does anyone here listen to Night Vale (available on "podcasts" - I think that's the right term)?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 10:27 am

A few dozen signatures, I think.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 10:29 am

That last year flew by btw.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 10:34 am

StephenDolan wrote:That last year flew by btw.

Well, we're having so much fun . . .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 10:37 am

Farage could remain as Ukip leader until 2017, says Ukip chaiman[sic] (Politics Live, Guardian)

Still, at least we've now seen the back of him. (Some hope!)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 10:38 am

Good morfternoon.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 10:45 am

PorFavor wrote:
Farage could remain as Ukip leader until 2017, says Ukip chaiman[sic] (Politics Live, Guardian)
Still, at least we've now seen the back of him. (Some hope!)

Did anybody expect anything else?

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 11:04 am

Haven't been around an awful lot recently so apologies if this has been referenced previously.

Not sure how much was discussed here about the recent anniversary of the Aberfan disaster.

Hugh Edwards wrote a decent piece in yesterdays Telegraph (sorry cant link) on a programme that he has done to be shown on BBC 1 at 10.45 tomorrow night.

It recalls how a "gullible and deferential" press failed its victims and reminds us all of the disgraceful way victims and their families were treated to defend the reputation of a large organisation (in this case state owned) and its chairman.

I saw the same programme (I think) last week on S4C in Welsh (unfortunately no sub titles) and it pulls no punches. Before any one says it,yes,I know the irony of a BBC man complaining about a deferential press but I would encourage you all to watch to remind ourselves that although we have come far in many ways in the last 50 years some things remain the same. Plus ca Change.

On a similar theme Karl Jenkins (sorry Sir KJ) has written a very affecting piece called Cantata Memoria about the disaster and the days after.Again hard hitting including critical comment on the actions of the NCB and Lord Robens.Good to listen to if you are into that sort of thing.

Post by **refitman** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 11:08 am

StephenDolan wrote:That last year flew by btw.

Oops.

Post by **adam** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 11:17 am

PorFavor wrote:Does anyone here listen to Night Vale (available on "podcasts" - I think that's the right term)?

Yes although I haven't listened for a bit. Should we be looking out for black helicopters?

(Whilst we're here, did you also listen to Limetown? It's free in the iTunes podcast store still and is very good).

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 11:21 am

adam wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Does anyone here listen to Night Vale (available on "podcasts" - I think that's the right term)?
Yes although I haven't listened for a bit. Should we be looking out for black helicopters.

(Whilst we're here, did you also listen to Limetown? It's free in the iTunes podcast store still and is very good).

I'm not familiar with Limetown. I'll investigate. Thanks.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 11:59 am

Thai King death: Woman forced to kneel before portrait of late monarch after 'posting disrespectful comments online' - The Independent
https://apple.news/A_hqQIYZbQza9VwU2tOaAzg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A sneak preview of what Brexit Britain will be like once Bessie 2.0 pops her clogs. Possibly a toned down preview, too.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:01 pm

Of course, Thailand actually has laws making "disrespecting the monarch" an offence. We don't have those here........yet.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:03 pm

Who needs laws when you can have a baying lynch mob instead?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:04 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Thai King death: Woman forced to kneel before portrait of late monarch after 'posting disrespectful comments online' - The Independent
https://apple.news/A_hqQIYZbQza9VwU2tOaAzg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A sneak preview of what Brexit Britain will be like once Bessie 2.0 pops her clogs. Possibly a toned down preview, too.

I can imagine the headlines now given the republican views of some.

Hypocrisy, shame, outrage, etc etc.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:07 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Who needs laws when you can have a baying lynch mob instead?

Talking of which, its poppy wearing season soon. Who will be the celeb(s) monstered for not wearing one/wearing the "wrong" one this year?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:08 pm

Any commentary from anyone, anywhere on whether or not the business case for a third runway at Heathrow needs revisiting following the referendum result? What use is a hub airport that could be about to lose its principle raison d'être - easy access to Europe?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:09 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Who needs laws when you can have a baying lynch mob instead?
Talking of which, its poppy wearing season soon. Who will be the celeb(s) monstered for not wearing one/wearing the "wrong" one this year?

Jeremy Corbyn
Jeremy Corbyn
And Jeremy Corbyn.

And probably by his own MPs (because why make the right wing media do any work when they're all too willing to do it all for them...)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:11 pm

Exclusive: MPs urged to mount probe into Bradford school fraud scandal

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/edu ... -1-8184750

A PUBLIC spending watchdog is being urged to investigate the Government’s handling of the Kings Science Academy scandal after three former staff members were jailed for fraud.

The National Union of Teachers’ general secretary Kevin Courtney has written to the head of both the Public Accounts Committee and the Education Select Committee calling for them to hold inquiries into other matters at the former free school now the court case has concluded.

Yes, one of those two bodies ought to look at it. PAC probably given that it's more of a public spending control issue.

"lessons learned"
"Systems tightened up since"
"Tighter controls than council run schools"

All of those will be trotted out I expect...and no-one at the DfE will carry the can for it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:15 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:17 pm

Personally, I think it should be the police and the Serious Fraud Office investigating the DfE and a former employee of.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:21 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Who needs laws when you can have a baying lynch mob instead?
Talking of which, its poppy wearing season soon. Who will be the celeb(s) monstered for not wearing one/wearing the "wrong" one this year?
Jeremy Corbyn
Jeremy Corbyn
And Jeremy Corbyn.

And probably by his own MPs (because why make the right wing media do any work when they're all too willing to do it all for them...)

Interestingly they couldn't do him on that last year (as, contrary to some predictions, he wore a red one)

Hence they had to concoct that cock and bull yarn about him not bowing deeply enough at the Cenotaph instead.

(and yes, some "Labour MPs" could be found to whinge about this - though it says it all that even they were too embarrassed to actually put their names to this one)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:23 pm

Otto English ‏@Otto_English 17h17 hours ago
Tired of being called a Remoaner and a Remainiac? Call your tormentor a *Little Quitler* - remarkably effective. #LittleQuitlers

LittleQuitlers - I like that - lol

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:25 pm

Faisal Islam Verified account
‏@faisalislam

Number 10: PM "has full confidence" in Chancellor, "respects the independence of the @bankofengland" and is "clear in her support" of Carney

Think football club chairman and manager...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:41 pm

ScarletGas wrote:Haven't been around an awful lot recently so apologies if this has been referenced previously.

Not sure how much was discussed here about the recent anniversary of the Aberfan disaster.

Hugh Edwards wrote a decent piece in yesterdays Telegraph (sorry cant link) on a programme that he has done to be shown on BBC 1 at 10.45 tomorrow night.

It recalls how a "gullible and deferential" press failed its victims and reminds us all of the disgraceful way victims and their families were treated to defend the reputation of a large organisation (in this case state owned) and its chairman.

I saw the same programme (I think) last week on S4C in Welsh (unfortunately no sub titles) and it pulls no punches. Before any one says it,yes,I know the irony of a BBC man complaining about a deferential press but I would encourage you all to watch to remind ourselves that although we have come far in many ways in the last 50 years some things remain the same. Plus ca Change.

On a similar theme Karl Jenkins (sorry Sir KJ) has written a very affecting piece called Cantata Memoria about the disaster and the days after.Again hard hitting including critical comment on the actions of the NCB and Lord Robens.Good to listen to if you are into that sort of thing.

Relevant piece at Wales Online too - how the local and national media reported the event:

Aberfan 50 years on: How the press covered the disaster and the aftermath
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... w-11973335" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:46 pm

Siobhan Fenton ‏@SiobhanFenton
Parliament not approving decision to trigger Article 50 shows sovereignty as much as if they did, government argues

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:01 pm

I’m one of 3 million EU citizens in the UK. This uncertainty is unbearable - the guardian
https://apple.news/AFwXr05hEQqqP5tuSBZeZVw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How much will it cost the taxpayer for the increased bureaucracy involved in anything up to 3 million people wanting to apply for and receive a permanent residence card every few years? How much is it sucking out of the British economy?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:03 pm

"Just an accountant worrying about risk" sounds awfully like "we've heard enough from experts" doesn't it.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:06 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:I’m one of 3 million EU citizens in the UK. This uncertainty is unbearable - the guardian
https://apple.news/AFwXr05hEQqqP5tuSBZeZVw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How much will it cost the taxpayer for the increased bureaucracy involved in anything up to 3 million people wanting to apply for and receive a permanent residence card every few years? How much is it sucking out of the British economy?

Small change compared with the administration costs of processing imports and exports outside the single market.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:09 pm

Essential reading for Rachel Reeves.

The left's reasons for ditching freedom of movement are profoundly wrong
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... ndly-wrong" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Making immigration controls a part of Labour’s policy offering is not an act of "listening". It is giving credence, and further political salience, to an objective falsehood.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:13 pm

UK car industry fears effects of Brexit tariffs on supply chain
Suppliers say uncertainty over trade agreements may force them to relocate overseas
https://www.ft.com/content/c397f174-920 ... 28cb934b78" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That leaves Bentley’s supply chain, in common with that of almost every other car manufacturer in Britain, at risk of being hit by tariffs if Britain leaves the European single market.

Bumpers for some Bentley Bentaygas, for example, are made in Europe but then sent to Crewe for inspection before then going to Germany for specialist painting. After that, they return to the UK for final assembly.

Another example of the interconnectedness of the supply chain is a fuel injector for diesel lorries manufactured by the US component maker Delphi.

This part uses steel from Europe which is machined in the UK before going to Germany for special heat treatment. The injector is then assembled at Delphi’s UK plant in Stonehouse, Gloucestershire, before being sold on to truckmakers based in Sweden, France or Germany.

If the resulting truck is sold into the UK market, the component or materials used in it will have crossed the Channel five times before the lorry is ever driven by the customer. If tariffs are applied at each stage, the cost could be substantial.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:23 pm

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 6m6 minutes ago

Has a PM ever had to declare "full confidence" in their Chancellor this early on?
0 replies 5 retweets 3 likes

Autumn Statement should be fun...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:39 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:"Just an accountant worrying about risk" sounds awfully like "we've heard enough from experts" doesn't it.

Just what I was thinking. The man's delusional, too. Thinks he's Chancellor.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:49 pm

When anti-Semitism is used as a political weapon, only racism benefits - The Independent
https://apple.news/AG7B2CQlpSSmQ3s7HbZx63w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some very good letters to the Indy today.

Very hard to disagree with anything in Keith Farman's one (note, it is not about anti-Semitism) in particular.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:52 pm

gilsey wrote:Small change compared with the administration costs of processing imports and exports outside the single market.

Small change, perhaps, but it's all going to add up to big change very quickly. All that time and resource wasted on what should be a needless exercise. All those people who could be expending energy on something worthwhile instead.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:56 pm

PS. I didn't manage to look in very much yesterday - did Q 5 of 170 get a mention (here it is, plus 6.)?

5. Of the options it is still considering, would any involve the retention of ‘State Aid’ restrictions on the ability of the government to intervene to support particular industries or regions?

6. Of the options it is still considering, which does the government believe could come into force immediately upon Britain’s exit from the European Union (i.e. no later than the end of March 2019), and which does it accept would take longer to negotiate?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:56 pm

Nick Sutton
✔
@suttonnick

Monday's FT front page:
Cabinet looks at paying billions to keep single-market access for City#tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers
8:26 PM - 16 Oct 2016 (Politics Live, Guardian)

I expect Nigel Farage will have something to say about that . . .

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 1:58 pm

"I never said we wouldn't have to pay billions to retain access to the single market... and even if I did, it was just locker room talk between banter about committing sexual assault and paedophilia"

If recent form is anything to go by.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 2:12 pm

Wonder if Priti Patel might care to comment?

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/statu ... 4657292288

Worth looking at the pics.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 2:30 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... for-decade" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK security agencies unlawfully collected data for decade
Investigatory powers tribunal says agencies operated secret regimes to collect vast amounts of communications data for 10 years

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 2:30 pm

Pound fall will do little for exports, says new research - Sky News
https://apple.news/AdbifzZtGSduHHUZlnqyJCg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From Deutsche Bank. So it'll be shoot the messenger time, despite it being a statement of the bleeding obvious (an increase in exports may only be of benefit to anything made solely in the U.K. without using any imported goods).

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 2:44 pm

Conservative councillor says EU support should be treason

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-3 ... ws_central" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;