Wednesday 19th October 2016

[StephenDolan]

May seems to be putting a lot of the NHS blame onto local government from what I have read of PMQs. Not very subtle.

[AngryAsWell]

The investigation also looked at abuse suffered by Eagle, both before and after she launched a challenge to Corbyn’s leadership. “It’s highly likely that the brick thrown through the window of Angela Eagle’s office was related to her leadership challenge,” the report found. “The position of the window made it very unlikely that this was a random passerby. The window was directly between two Labour offices.

“Untrue rumours were subsequently spread that the building was occupied by many companies and the window was in an unrelated stairwell. This was based on a Companies House search which found that the landlord had a number of companies registered there; in fact the only other occupant is the landlord on the upper floor. Once this incorrect rumour was spread, members repeated it as clear evidence that Angela Eagle was lying. This is categorically untrue.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ur-members" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - The full article.

[AnatolyKasparov]

But its not confined to any one faction - Corbyn himself gets death threats and similar stuff on a regular basis.

"Blame on all sides"

All this abuse and so on was an equivalent problem before 2015 was it?

Something has changed.

Yes, things have got worse - though abuse of politicians has been a growing problem for a while now.

My point is that its not just one faction to blame, its a more general thing.

And yes, social media (in many ways a thoroughly good and enabling construct) is in large part responsible.

[RogerOThornhill]

‘There was no money’: MoJ called in consultants to help control spending

http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/there-w ... 91.article

The Ministry of Justice has blamed ‘rustic’ forecasting techniques for projected overspending last year, but insists it is getting better at controlling its finances.

Giving evidence to the Commons justice select committee yesterday on the ministry’s 2015/16 accounts, permanent secretary Richard Heaton (pictured) said the department is working hard to improve its forecasting capabilities.

Heaton said: ‘When we put up civil fees, we projected a future volume which did not materialise. Something was unsatisfactory. We’ve had independent analytical consultants in to do a report on our modelling to see what went wrong.’

So what have they been doing for the past 5 years if they've only recently realised that they couldn't budget properly?

[Willow904]

Maria Eagle good on Concentrix at pmq's, I thought.

Generally not a particularly enlightening session, though. We've had some U-turns - extra runway decision delayed again and a part of Osborne's pension reforms cancelled - but no questions on these that I spotted.

[StephenDolan]

What 'fundamental premise'?

That a brick was thrown through her constituency office window.

'...a window vandalised at her office building – with a brick according to the report...'
This happened

The office building is not her constituency office. Her office was within the shared building.

[RogerOThornhill]

May seems to be putting a lot of the NHS blame onto local government from what I have read of PMQs. Not very subtle.

And the NHS itself.

When you've (i) been responsible for the structural reforms to it and (ii) recruited the CEO, you can't really blame the organisation alone. Only trolls do that.

[SpinningHugo]

But its not confined to any one faction - Corbyn himself gets death threats and similar stuff on a regular basis.

"Blame on all sides"

All this abuse and so on was an equivalent problem before 2015 was it?

Something has changed.

Yes, things have got worse - though abuse of politicians has been a growing problem for a while now.

My point is that its not just one faction to blame, its a more general thing.

And yes, social media (in many ways a thoroughly good and enabling construct) is in large part responsible.

I am afraid I think all three claims are far-fetched.

The idea that in, say, 2009 the Labour party would have felt the need to set up an ant-semitism enquiry is implausible. This isn't just about something that was already there getting worse. it is radically different.

Similarly, whatever else you think of the few members of Kendall's of 4.5% who haven't, like me, just left, the idea that the evil Bitterites are engaaging in the kind of abuse you see is without substance.

i don't think it is about social media either. That was around long before 2015. It is about the Labour party itself having radically and quickly changed. I don't recall all these CLPs having to be suspended before.

Some people have changed things. it wasn't elves.

[Willow904]

Ah, a runway question and "a decision will be taken by the end of this month" comes Theresa May's reply. I'm well confused now. I thought it had been postponed?! I really haven't had time to keep up with politics lately.

[tinyclanger2]

But its not confined to any one faction - Corbyn himself gets death threats and similar stuff on a regular basis.

"Blame on all sides"

All this abuse and so on was an equivalent problem before 2015 was it?

Something has changed.

Yes, things have got worse - though abuse of politicians has been a growing problem for a while now.

My point is that its not just one faction to blame, its a more general thing.

And yes, social media (in many ways a thoroughly good and enabling construct) is in large part responsible.

Exactly. We are generally more unpleasant - and certainly more visibly unpleasant - than we have been. Politicians and the BBC have broken the taboos that we had worked so hard to build up, various aspects of society (amended) eradicated respect (even awareness) of others and largely unrestrained social media has nurtured extremism and knee jerk "thinking".

[yahyah]

I guess we'll agree to disagree on the fundamental premise.

What 'fundamental premise'?

That a brick was thrown through her constituency office window.

Read paragraphs seven and eight. It quotes from the Labour report.
I can't cut and paste on Win10 or I'd post it.

[tinyclanger2]

This started in the early 2000s in Austria and spread across Europe through the likes of Wilders and LePen, helped along by weak leaders in politics for their own entertainment and power. It took a while to get here - just as social media took a while to take quite the hold it has today. These are regional societal changes - not even peculiar to Britain.

[yahyah]

That a brick was thrown through her constituency office window.

'...a window vandalised at her office building – with a brick according to the report...'
This happened

The office building is not her constituency office. Her office was within the shared building.

Read the article - paragraphs seven and eight.

Serious question - are you saying the people who investigated it and the committee that signed off the investigation are wrong/lying ?

The report makes it clear that 'untrue rumours' were spread that made it look as if Eagle lied.

Read paragraphs seven and eight.

[tinyclanger2]

Let's give it a rest shall we.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I largely agree with you on this tc2 - and, therefore, disagree with SH. Though he will be getting used to it by now

Just one thing to show it isn't just about Jez - how does that explain the dog's abuse Ed M used to get as Labour leader?

[yahyah]

Sorry, have just seen AngryAsWell has posted those paragraphs.

[pk1]

Ah, a runway question and "a decision will be taken by the end of this month" comes Theresa May's reply. I'm well confused now. I thought it had been postponed?! I really haven't had time to keep up with politics lately.

As I understand it, a Cabinet sub-committee are to make the decision next week so will still be by the end of this month.

I might of course be completely wrong

[citizenJA]

Let's give it a rest shall we.

Don't write about some things

[citizenJA]

Good-afternoon.
love,
cJA

[yahyah]

Let's give it a rest shall we.

Don't write about some things

Evidence is sometimes inconvenient isn't it ?
I am ashamed to say I repeated the untrue rumours about Eagle's office building being occupied by other tenants so the truth is important to me to hear now.

But a thousand tweets will still be saying the same old stuff and smearing her. Post truth politics indeed.

[Willow904]

Ah, a runway question and "a decision will be taken by the end of this month" comes Theresa May's reply. I'm well confused now. I thought it had been postponed?! I really haven't had time to keep up with politics lately.

As I understand it, a Cabinet sub-committee are to make the decision next week so will still be by the end of this month.

I might of course be completely wrong

So the decision was never delayed? I must have imagined it

I'm confused about "metro mayors" as well. Bath and NE Somerset council had a referendum in March 2016 on whether to have a metro mayor that was rejected by voters almost unanimously. So we're getting a metro mayor for Bath, Bristol and South Glos now - no consultation at all. Which begs the question, if BANES council had the power to and had already decided to go down the combined authority metro mayor route, what was the point of the referendum? Not necessarily their fault either by the looks of it:


http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/8203-bath ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Councillor Joe Rayment (Lab, Twerton) also believed there should have been more time before council went to a vote. He said "the treasury is holding a gun to our heads" and that the council is "being held hostage by the Chancellor" with an imminent decision needed.

So much for democracy.

[pk1]

Let's give it a rest shall we.

Don't write about some things

Evidence is sometimes inconvenient isn't it ?
I am ashamed to say I repeated the untrue rumours about Eagle's office building being occupied by other tenants so the truth is important to me to hear now.

But a thousand tweets will still be saying the same old stuff and smearing her. Post truth politics indeed.

The unofficial Labour party f/b forum has a thread running currently in which the lies are perpetrated again & again. It is truly a dreadful group for those of us that aren't enamoured with the direction of the party since Corbyn became leader.

Here's a link to it should anybody want to join but I certainly wouldn't recommend it:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2829257 ... 6/?fref=nf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yahyah]

It's easy to see how things have descended so low. I got it in the neck here for objecting to Owen Smith being called a lying snivelling sack of ****.

[PorFavor]

It's easy to see how things have descended so low. I got it in the neck here for objecting to Owen Smith being called a lying snivelling sack of ****.

Blimey. I'd forgotten all about him (and I voted for him)!

[yahyah]

It does seem odd doesn't it PF ?

Hearing about the Eagle business reminds me how far I've come since then.
Was still swallowing the pro-Corbyn kool aid then.

[RogerOThornhill]

May lying again...

Labour’s Lucy Powell says only a tiny proportion of grammar school pupils qualify for free school meals. Will she accept there is no evidence base for expanding grammar schools?

May says she thinks it is wrong to have a law banning the expansion of good schools.

There is no such law. In fact, we know there isn't because they used the 'annexe' line when allowing Sevenoaks Grammar to expand.

And note, no admission that there is any evidence against grammar schools.

[Womble44]

Let's give it a rest shall we.

Don't write about some things

Evidence is sometimes inconvenient isn't it ?
I am ashamed to say I repeated the untrue rumours about Eagle's office building being occupied by other tenants so the truth is important to me to hear now.

But a thousand tweets will still be saying the same old stuff and smearing her. Post truth politics indeed.

Hello, long time lurker, first time poster, so I hope you'll all forgive me barging into an ongoing conversation like this.

My personal reading of those paragraphs isn't quite as clear cut as it has been claimed, while it states that the claims of multiple other companies is untrue, it does make clear that the Labour office is not the sole tenant, and that the window that was broken was between two labour offices, which I would read as a window that does not actually look into a labour office, I.e. A stairway.

Whether it was targeted or not is not my primary concern personally, although obviously I would want the perpetrator caught regardless of their intentions. What concerns me about this report and the subsequent coverage of it, is that it takes what can only be described as circumstantial evidence and uses it to claim that it is very likely to be driven by political aims, when there is not in my view enough evidence to say either way.

[PorFavor]

@Womble44

Hello!

[Womble44]

Howdy Porfavor

[PorFavor]

Following her question at PMQs (see 1pm) the Labour MP Lisa Nandy is now saying Theresa May must come clean about when she knew about the concerns about Dame Lowell Goddard’s leadership of the child sexual abuse inquiry. In a statement Nandy said:

Theresa May set up the abuse inquiry and appointed its chair. She was the home secretary in April when serious concerns were raised with her department, and only she had the power to act on them. Today she suggested that she did know of problems but did nothing at all. For this investigation to regain the trust of survivors the prime minister must now come clean about what she knew when, and why she failed to intervene. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Edited to add -

Yes. I want to know this. Theresa May certainly (probably) conned me about her sincerity on this issue.

[seeingclearly]

There have been rising levels of abuse, year on year throughout the last tens years. I date the sheer vitriol to around 2011 and a huge increase with the cybernats. This goes hand in hand with a kind of intransigent belief that freedom of speech comes without responsibility, charectorised these days with people saying whatever offensive thing they want preceded by, or followed by the words "I am entitled to my opinion." - whether online, in real life, or in writing. All human rights are suspended in this version of pesonal self expression, whether on issues of origin, disability, gender, etc. I noticed this starting to come through schools first, it worried the heck out of me. Since then I have noticed an increasing tendency for young people especially to insist on their right to be as offensive as they wish, regardless of demeanour or of the feelings of the person/s they intend to offend. A standard response for questioning this is, " People should not be so easily offended." I take the equally problematic phenomena at universities where safe spaces and topics are demanded and prospective speaker programes can be overturned by student demand as the opposite end of the right of freedom of speech issue. This polarisation is not helpful to society at large except inasmuch as it may stimulate discourse about where as individuals we should, with some measure of wisdom, pitch a common sense application of the right to speak freely. It is every individuals right of course to determine this, though personally I draw the line at causing any kind of harm to other people whether it is by exceeding the bounds of offensiveness or being expected to reign in my right to attend events that might express disparate views, some of which may be distasteful to others. We all, in the latter event, have the choice not to attend any event we might find offensive. At the opposite end of the scale we may not always be able to avoid the person, post, email, etc. that screams out something about our person that is untrue, vitriolic, a message of hate etc. The arguments for these behaviours, a bit like the ones that surround racism, are almost always ideological and against the fundamental rights that protect us as human beings. As for the many instances I was able to observe over the last ten years I can only think that the greatest carrier of such ideological memes is the internet. Heck, I have even heard young people, and those who are old enough to know better, that we do not need unversal human rights!

[Womble44]

By the way, not sure who does this here, but the question at registration is out of date! Took me ages to work out where I was going wrong

[StephenDolan]

Don't write about some things

Evidence is sometimes inconvenient isn't it ?
I am ashamed to say I repeated the untrue rumours about Eagle's office building being occupied by other tenants so the truth is important to me to hear now.

But a thousand tweets will still be saying the same old stuff and smearing her. Post truth politics indeed.

Hello, long time lurker, first time poster, so I hope you'll all forgive me barging into an ongoing conversation like this.

My personal reading of those paragraphs isn't quite as clear cut as it has been claimed, while it states that the claims of multiple other companies is untrue, it does make clear that the Labour office is not the sole tenant, and that the window that was broken was between two labour offices, which I would read as a window that does not actually look into a labour office, I.e. A stairway.

Whether it was targeted or not is not my primary concern personally, although obviously I would want the perpetrator caught regardless of their intentions. What concerns me about this report and the subsequent coverage of it, is that it takes what can only be described as circumstantial evidence and uses it to claim that it is very likely to be driven by political aims, when there is not in my view enough evidence to say either way.

Welcome Womble, and nicely put. The report itself (not the summarising of by the Guardian or the Echo) has far too many assumptions within.

[Womble44]

StephenDolan
I agree, it's frustrating because I have no problem believing some left-wing extremists are being nobs on twitter etc., but too much of the analysis from journalists and others seems to go out without them feeling the need to actually gather more concrete evidence before they present their findings. It undermines attempts to get to the bottom of these issues.

[gilsey]

This started in the early 2000s in Austria and spread across Europe through the likes of Wilders and LePen, helped along by weak leaders in politics for their own entertainment and power. It took a while to get here - just as social media took a while to take quite the hold it has today. These are regional societal changes - not even peculiar to Britain.

Politicians appealing to our base instincts instead of our better natures.
'Civilisation' has gone wrong somewhere.

[SpinningHugo]

Ipsos-Mori: Con 47%, Lab 29%, LD 7%, UKIP 6%

Just getting funny now.

[PorFavor]

By the way, not sure who does this here, but the question at registration is out of date! Took me ages to work out where I was going wrong

But admit it - you couldn't help but be charmed by our quaint little ways!

[HindleA]

Channel 8 for coverage of PAC session on TFP for those interested.


http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde ... 1b7e64bd56" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tinyclanger2]

[SpinningHugo]

New select committee chairs:

Home Affairs: Yvette Cooper
Science: Stephen Metcalfe
CMS: Damian Collins
Trade: Angus Macneil
Brexit: Hilary Benn

[JonnyT1234]

My only comment on the 'abuse' story:

Undoubted that it has, is and in all likelihood will continue.
Undoubted that some or even much of it will be by some supporters of Corbyn.

But also undoubted in my opinion is:

It's being reported as if fact that the abusers are definitely all Labour and all Corbyn supporters with zero evidence to support this
It's being exploited to tar all supporters of Corbyn
It's being used to tar Corbyn ("not doing enough", "his supporters" etc.)
It's Swift Boating.

If the PLP and the media didn't do the latter, the former would have far more credence than it really, really should be getting. It's like the anti-Semitism claims. There's too much politically motivated crying wolf going on for the real stuff to get the attention it deserves.

[RogerOThornhill]

Another u-turn. And excellent news.

Government u-turns on year 7 resit manifesto pledge

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/government-u-t ... to-pledge/

The government has u-turned on a manifesto pledge that all children who do not achieve a level 4 in reading and maths must resit their exams at secondary school.

Education secretary Justine Greening announced today that she will abandon statutory resits in year 7 on arrival, and instead “focus on the steps needed to ensure a child catches up lost ground”.

It was one of a series of proposals around primary assessment announced today.

However the resit announcement reneges on a Conservative manifesto that stated “if children do not meet level 4 in their ‘exams’ at the end of primary school, they must resit at secondary school”.

Maybe they ought to consult first before coming up with daft ideas like this. Just a thought...

[letsskiptotheleft]

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wish I could find it amusing, but I struggle to do so.

Those polling figures, largest Tory lead for 30 years equate roughly to around 132 seats, and that's on the current boundaries.

[SpinningHugo]

Wish I could find it amusing, but I struggle to do so.

Those polling figures, largest Tory lead for 30 years equate roughly to around 132 seats, and that's on the current boundaries.

Carry on Seumas.

I think 47% is implausibly high. But then I think 29% is too high as well.

Other interesting numbers in that poll are

1. the collapse in economic confidence. What would the numbers look like if that hadn't happened.

2. May's honeymoon period wearing off. She is still a positive, but already not so much.

If she went for a quick election I'd expect the outcome of the campaign to be a deterioration in Labour's current poll position.

[PorFavor]

Leadom[sic!!] says UK could strike trade deal with EU 'in very short order' (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

I don't think short order chefs do jam, do they?

[RogerOThornhill]

On that subject...

Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 10m10 minutes ago

Starmer, Cooper & Benn make nucleus of effective Commons scrutiny of Brexit, & chances of T May calling election in 2017 a little higher.

Very much doubt it.

Assuming Corbyn steps down after an election defeat then...

1. Election 2017 Labour lose heavily. Corbyn steps down. Starmer (for example) takes over and wins in 2022.

2. Election 2020. Labour lose heavily....etc...etc...win in 2025.

So tell me again why May would go in 2017?

[Willow904]

Hi to Womble44.

Good to see a new face on these boards.

[SpinningHugo]

On that subject...

Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 10m10 minutes ago

Starmer, Cooper & Benn make nucleus of effective Commons scrutiny of Brexit, & chances of T May calling election in 2017 a little higher.

Very much doubt it.

Assuming Corbyn steps down after an election defeat then...

1. Election 2017 Labour lose heavily. Corbyn steps down. Starmer (for example) takes over and wins in 2022.

2. Election 2020. Labour lose heavily....etc...etc...win in 2025.

So tell me again why May would go in 2017?

Nice big majority. No more worrying about Clarke, Grieve and, indeed, Osborne.

There is now no prospect at all of Labour winning in 2022 or 2025. The brand is now too badly damaged. It will take much longer than 5 years to repair now.

It must be an open question whether Corbyn would quit anyway. A normal leader would, but then a normal leader would have quit after 80% of his MPs voted no confidence. Winning a general election is not the agenda of John McDonnell.

I don't think she will, but if she lost a Brexit vote she might.

[Womble44]

Hi to Womble44.

Good to see a new face on these boards.

Hello to you too, I'll try to behave

[howsillyofme1]

It does seem odd doesn't it PF ?

Hearing about the Eagle business reminds me how far I've come since then.
Was still swallowing the pro-Corbyn kool aid then.

I don't come here very often, but sometimes still read

If you want to know why a lot of us left it is due to sanctimonious posters like this one who is so very happy to sling mud at what some people post which a 'holier than thou Hyacinth Bucket smugness' but then post this type of 'kool-aid' post implying that people who dare support Corbyn are 'cultists'

Just so you all know where this comes from

https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... d2c635e65c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see it is not just SH who is an offensive troll