Saturday 22nd & Sunday 23rd October 2016

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:27 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Personally I think the problems are now irreconcilable for many - much like the labour party - and it is a product of the appalling divisive leadership contest run by Saving Labour - who ironically have probably killed it
They haven't, but it is going to take a while to recover from this.

That several MPs chose, quite deliberately, to put out the impression that Corbyn was personally responsible for Brexit remains an act of - probably unforgivable - treachery.

Yet you still voted Owen Smith, Anatoly.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:28 pm

Temulkar wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Hello Tem.
No snideness intended - and indeed apologies to anyone reading this as snide. It's more a parody within a parody within a parody - and indeed a reference to someone else's equally unsnide reference to this the other day (can't recall whose) which was in itself a reference to earlier discussions we'd had about this. The tone is critical and really that's my point.

Take "entirely unintentional I'm sure" I could read that as either genuine or sarcastic, and am assuming it's the former.
Oh I was being entirely genuine as to how it may be perceived. I have no problems with you or other people here - obviously I have nothing but contempt for SH's political stance but thats a political stance not him as a person - but do understand why some peope have left (As an aside thats not to single SH out there are others who have been cited as a reason)

Personally I think the problems are now irreconcilable for many - much like the labour party - and it is a product of the appalling divisive leadership contest run by Saving Labour - who ironically have probably killed it.

My lack of posting is due to being inredibly busy - Book 2 finished and out next September and a collection of short stories in the summer in the build up, both from same publisher.

Yay! Well done & congrats

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:29 pm

yahyah wrote: Isn't it another problem for Labour or are we to ignore everything that is a bit inconvenient ?

Imo it's insoluble at present so we might as well ignore it, god knows there's plenty of other things to worry about.
Labour can't afford to piss off either the remainers or the leavers among labour voters. As PfY often says, let some time pass.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:30 pm

Temulkar wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Personally I think the problems are now irreconcilable for many - much like the labour party - and it is a product of the appalling divisive leadership contest run by Saving Labour - who ironically have probably killed it
They haven't, but it is going to take a while to recover from this.

That several MPs chose, quite deliberately, to put out the impression that Corbyn was personally responsible for Brexit remains an act of - probably unforgivable - treachery.
Yet you still voted Owen Smith, Anatoly.

I did, but that was relatively early on. He did himself no favours with his campaign (certainly in the later stages) and the eventual result came as no surprise.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:33 pm

GAURANG ‏@gaurangmorjaria Oct 21
#WitneyByElection
Conservative vote: 45.1%
LibD+Lab+Green: 48.7%
10th Safest Tory Seat
Maj. slashed by 20000
#LeftAlliance would've won

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:35 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Personally I think the problems are now irreconcilable for many - much like the labour party - and it is a product of the appalling divisive leadership contest run by Saving Labour - who ironically have probably killed it
They haven't, but it is going to take a while to recover from this.

That several MPs chose, quite deliberately, to put out the impression that Corbyn was personally responsible for Brexit remains an act of - probably unforgivable - treachery.

Again who specifically has said anything so ridiculous? Link?

What Corbyn has been blamed for is.

1. Running a spectacularly lacklustre campaign

2. Having staff (Milne, McBride) who wanted Brexit, and who undermined th Labour campaign.

3. Calling for the immediate triggering of Article 50 the day after the campaign (the trigger for the coup attempt).

Now, he is to blame for all those things, and did make a contribution to Brexit (hardly surprisingly as he has voted against the EU Treaties at every past opportunity in his life) but nobody that I know of has said he was personally responsible. Lots of other people were, some more so.

I sometimes think that your optimism (which is a good trait) drifts into believing what you'd like to be true (which is not).

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:36 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: They haven't, but it is going to take a while to recover from this.

That several MPs chose, quite deliberately, to put out the impression that Corbyn was personally responsible for Brexit remains an act of - probably unforgivable - treachery.
Yet you still voted Owen Smith, Anatoly.
I did, but that was relatively early on. He did himself no favours with his campaign (certainly in the later stages) and the eventual result came as no surprise.

Ar you now saying you regret your vote?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:38 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:GAURANG ‏@gaurangmorjaria Oct 21
#WitneyByElection
Conservative vote: 45.1%
LibD+Lab+Green: 48.7%
10th Safest Tory Seat
Maj. slashed by 20000
#LeftAlliance would've won

Sadly, you can't just stack votes together like that.

I would have thought that if 2010-15 taught us anything, it was that the Lib Dems are not part of a general left alliance.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:38 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Aww you could almost feel sorry for him.....

George Osborne admits Brexit 'mistakes' and says he is trying to put them right
The ex-Chancellor says he did not 'properly understand' how angry the public were with the establishment

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 74321.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He doesn't properly understand how angry the rest of us are with him now, either.

There was an article linked the other day, written by someone who'd been on Cameron's team I think, which could have been subtitled How We Moaned About The EU For Six Years And Then Lost The Referendum.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:40 pm

Hello Hugo! A small tip:
While it's desirable for people to provide references to evidence that support one's views, outside of things like academic publishing, legal precedent and the like, it's not actually compulsory.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:41 pm

One of the advantages of my switching away from the Guardian to Apple News as my principle source of news is that I get to see all the right wing headlines that I would never have routinely seen otherwise. And, my god, the Telegraph is in full on denial at the moment. Virtually every headline I'm seeing of their's about Brexit is the literal equivalent of don't panic, nothing to see here, we're British, everything is going to be brilliant tomorrow... because we're British and they're foreign.

It's amazing how far they've shoved their heads into the sand.

Case in point:

Calm down. We don’t need a negotiating stance on Brexit - The Telegraph
https://apple.news/A2cTGERCbSiS67qd1vrc3kg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps it was the hour or something (1.30 in the morning), but Theresa May’s short address to last week’s EU summit explaining that yes, Britain really would be leaving the EU but hoped for an amicable relationship afterwards, was greeted with complete silence. Not a single question was asked of her by other European leaders.

This has been widely interpreted as a snub, but in fact it is no more of than a recognition of the underlying reality.

The rest of the article is similarly deluded.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:44 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:GAURANG ‏@gaurangmorjaria Oct 21
#WitneyByElection
Conservative vote: 45.1%
LibD+Lab+Green: 48.7%
10th Safest Tory Seat
Maj. slashed by 20000
#LeftAlliance would've won

The Lib Dems are NOT left wing. They're no longer even centrist. We've just had 5 years of them proving that to all who could be bothered to pay any attention. So, no, an alliance involving those lying, back stabbing bastards would not have been a win for the left.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:48 pm

a fair point. sometimes I let my desire for a different world bring futile optimism to my normally cloudy disposition.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:51 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote:Haven't got more details yet, it's from Mike Smithson:

''New poll out later finds that 50% of Remain voters on June 23rd would support a Stop Brexit party at an early general election''.
&
''I understand that the poll has Labour in third place behind the notional Stop Brexit party and Conservatives''.
Pointless poll on several levels.

Not sure about that. There is room for a party that is more pro-EU than Labour. Labour's substantive position is the same as the Tories, and lots of the "centerist" MPs seem to have decided that Labour will lose out to Ukip in the north unless it starts making anti-immigration noises (which I hate). Labour has for 20 years been an uneasy alliance of metropolitan middle class liberals (like me) and the (larger, more traditional) working class base (I don't think Corbyn appeals much to either constituency, which is why it is possible Labour could fall still further unless the declining economy comes to its rescue).

So there is room now for a pro-EU, pro-immigration/openness. liberal party. If the Lib Dems were not so badly wounded by the coalition they could fulfill that role,, and Labour would be in even worse trouble.

Perhaps it still can?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tory MPs most opposed to a quick election are those who won their seats from Lib Dems. Now the threat of a Labour/SNP government has disappeared, some Lib Dem revival is possible if voters are sure the Tories will easily win.

But it is a long term thing, 6/7 years at least. but it is possible to see how a revival could happen. Harder for some other parties whose trajectory is firmly downward.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:52 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:One of the advantages of my switching away from the Guardian to Apple News as my principle source of news is that I get to see all the right wing headlines that I would never have routinely seen otherwise. And, my god, the Telegraph is in full on denial at the moment. Virtually every headline I'm seeing of their's about Brexit is the literal equivalent of don't panic, nothing to see here, we're British, everything is going to be brilliant tomorrow... because we're British and they're foreign.

It's amazing how far they've shoved their heads into the sand.

Case in point:

Calm down. We don’t need a negotiating stance on Brexit - The Telegraph
https://apple.news/A2cTGERCbSiS67qd1vrc3kg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps it was the hour or something (1.30 in the morning), but Theresa May’s short address to last week’s EU summit explaining that yes, Britain really would be leaving the EU but hoped for an amicable relationship afterwards, was greeted with complete silence. Not a single question was asked of her by other European leaders.

This has been widely interpreted as a snub, but in fact it is no more of than a recognition of the underlying reality.
The rest of the article is similarly deluded.

Perhaps the silence was to do with the fact that they're not talking about "Brexit" until Article 50 is triggered. Did that not occur to the Telegraph?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:52 pm

May practices superciliousness while writing shopping list.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/ ... o12okA.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 2:59 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 75206.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wales must stay in the EU single market after Brexit, Leanne Wood insists
'There are 200,000 jobs in Wales dependent on trade with Europe,' says Plaid Cymru leader Ms Wood

Sorry love but THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN, and the people of your neck of the woods in particular voted (at 52.5%) above the UK average (51.9%) to leave.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 3:11 pm

15 AWESOME USES FOR LEMONS

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 3:12 pm

It doesn't matter whether or not the Lib Dems are or are not genuinely progressive or left wing. It's about whether people will be prepared to believe they are, or feel that stopping Brexit is so important that for one general election [should the scenario of an early election actually happen] voting for a stop-Brexit party is more important than other policies.

Surely if we've learnt one thing recently, both here and in the US, it's that a voter's emotion or perception is often more of a spur in their decision in the ballot box than logic, facts or other factors ?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 3:26 pm

gilsey wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Aww you could almost feel sorry for him.....

George Osborne admits Brexit 'mistakes' and says he is trying to put them right
The ex-Chancellor says he did not 'properly understand' how angry the public were with the establishment

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 74321.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He doesn't properly understand how angry the rest of us are with him now, either.

There was an article linked the other day, written by someone who'd been on Cameron's team I think, which could have been subtitled How We Moaned About The EU For Six Years And Then Lost The Referendum.

Might be this one (I posted a few says ago) Unleashing Demons: The Inside Story of Brexit

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 3:45 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
gilsey wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Aww you could almost feel sorry for him.....

George Osborne admits Brexit 'mistakes' and says he is trying to put them right
The ex-Chancellor says he did not 'properly understand' how angry the public were with the establishment

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 74321.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He doesn't properly understand how angry the rest of us are with him now, either.

There was an article linked the other day, written by someone who'd been on Cameron's team I think, which could have been subtitled How We Moaned About The EU For Six Years And Then Lost The Referendum.
Might be this one (I posted a few says ago) Unleashing Demons: The Inside Story of Brexit

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's the G review of it https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... arty-split" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 4:07 pm

More info on the poll, Labour would be at a notional 18.7% in that imaginary scenario.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... he-ballot/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 4:21 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Yet you still voted Owen Smith, Anatoly.
I did, but that was relatively early on. He did himself no favours with his campaign (certainly in the later stages) and the eventual result came as no surprise.
Are you now saying you regret your vote?

I would never have actually voted for Corbyn, simply because I agree with you that - ultimately - he can't do the job. Abstension might have been a possibility, however.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 4:45 pm

Feeling a bit better JA ?

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 4:57 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: I did, but that was relatively early on. He did himself no favours with his campaign (certainly in the later stages) and the eventual result came as no surprise.
Are you now saying you regret your vote?
I would never have actually voted for Corbyn, simply because I agree with you that - ultimately - he can't do the job. Abstension might have been a possibility, however.

I would never vote for Corbyn but I would vote against the Lilliputians in the PLP. For example, listen to AQ and hear three complete no-marks taking him apart. Isn't he supposed to be one of the big beasts in the PLP?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 5:01 pm

yahyah wrote:Feeling a bit better JA ?

Yes, still a little wobbly, thank you.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 6:05 pm

Twice as many voters trust May over Corbyn with economy and Brexit – poll

Opinium/Observer poll to mark prime minister’s first 100 days in office also finds 46% think more positively about her now than when she took over in June

Theresa May is trusted by more than twice as many voters as Jeremy Corbyn to run the economy well and handle Brexit negotiations effectively, according to an Opinium/Observer poll to mark her first 100 days as prime minister.

The findings also show May is regarded as strong, decisive, and able to get things done and stand up for Britain’s interests abroad by more than double the number of voters who attribute these qualities to the Labour leader.

The survey conducted last week indicates that she is still building respect among voters three months into her leadership, despite troubles in her cabinet and heated arguments in parliament over Brexit. (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... erver-poll

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 6:12 pm

The 'stop Brexit party' poll was 4,500 people, a big sample.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 6:21 pm

yahyah wrote:More info on the poll, Labour would be at a notional 18.7% in that imaginary scenario.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... he-ballot/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting that this fantasy poll drops the Tories several points down to 34%. Is this what the Tories are looking at if the party splits? Is this the price May will pay if she rejects membership of the single market and goes for a hard Brexit?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 6:31 pm

yahyah wrote:The 'stop Brexit party' poll was 4,500 people, a big sample.

Actually, bigger samples (above the usual 1-2k or so) don't automatically make polls more accurate. Though they can make subsamples a *bit* more meaningful.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 7:36 pm

Sums up the internet....

Why Gary Lineker, Lily Allen and you shouldn't comment

http://www.joe.ie/sport/why-gary-lineke ... site_share" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 7:44 pm

Going from bad to worst
Racist thug hits man in face with plank of wood after hearing his Spanish accent and screaming 'speak English'

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ra ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 7:53 pm

I shall try to put it another way.

I have found, in the workplace, writing, saving and rereading (after a suitable pause) drafts of e-mails is a great way to avoid sending mails that are obnoxious and get no-one anywhere.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 8:16 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I shall try to put it another way.

I have found, in the workplace, writing, saving and rereading (after a suitable pause) drafts of e-mails is a great way to avoid sending mails that are obnoxious and get no-one anywhere.

"Trouble with Fred is, he's too hasty
Never get nowhere if you're too hasty."

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 8:18 pm

An alternative is to keep posting and then deleting things really quickly to drive PF insane.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 8:18 pm

PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:I shall try to put it another way.

I have found, in the workplace, writing, saving and rereading (after a suitable pause) drafts of e-mails is a great way to avoid sending mails that are obnoxious and get no-one anywhere.

"Trouble with Fred is, he's too hasty
Never get nowhere if you're too hasty."

Now I'm singing that to myself.

Can think of much worse earworms.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 8:21 pm

PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:I shall try to put it another way.

I have found, in the workplace, writing, saving and rereading (after a suitable pause) drafts of e-mails is a great way to avoid sending mails that are obnoxious and get no-one anywhere.

"Trouble with Fred is, he's too hasty
Never get nowhere if you're too hasty."

You missed a trick there, didn't you? You didn't bargain for my "song for all circumstances" phantom persona, did you?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 8:22 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... le-mistake" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A government minister has added to Conservative divisions over Brexit by describing Britain’s vote to leave as “a terrible mistake” and urging Theresa May to fight hard to stay in the single market.

David Prior, the health minister in the House of Lords, also said that Britain must continue to be able to attract top medical, scientific and academic talent to bolster universities and especially the life sciences industry.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 8:24 pm

PorFavor wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:I shall try to put it another way.

I have found, in the workplace, writing, saving and rereading (after a suitable pause) drafts of e-mails is a great way to avoid sending mails that are obnoxious and get no-one anywhere.

"Trouble with Fred is, he's too hasty
Never get nowhere if you're too hasty."
You missed a trick there, didn't you? You didn't bargain for my "song for all circumstances" phantom persona, did you?

I'd be lying if I said I was expecting it; equally I'd be lying if I said I was surprised.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 8:26 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... lationship" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Rocked by Brexit vote, Gibraltar lays plans for new kind of EU relationship

The obsession continues - apologies.
But no good can come of this (by which I mean the referendum aftermath). We're looking for the least worst option.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 8:33 pm

Twice as many voters trust May over Corbyn with economy and Brexit – poll
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... erver-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But this is more the electorate's failure than Corbyn's.
If we can't change the press, can we at least include interpreting the news as a curriculum requirement at school.
RoT?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 9:05 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... lationship" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Rocked by Brexit vote, Gibraltar lays plans for new kind of EU relationship
The obsession continues - apologies.
But no good can come of this (by which I mean the referendum aftermath). We're looking for the least worst option.

"Misgovernment is of four kinds, often in combination.
They are 1) tyranny or oppression 2) excessive ambition 3) incompetence or decadence 4) folly or perversity.

This book is concerned with the last in a specific manifestation; that is, the pursuit of policy contrary to the self-interest
of the constituency or state involved. Self-interest is whatever conduces to the welfare or advantage of the body being
governed; folly is a policy that in these terms is counter-productive.

To qualify as folly for this inquiry, the policy adopted must meet three criteria: it must have been perceived as counter-productive
in its own time, a feasible alternative course of action must have been available. To remove the problem from personality, a third
criterion must be that the policy in question should be that of a group, not an individual ruler...

Folly's appearance is independent of era or locality; it is timeless and universal, although the habits and beliefs of a particular
time and place determine the form it takes."

The March of Folly: From Troy to Vietnam
Barbara W. Tuchman

(my bold)

Great book.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 9:21 pm

Brexit: Leading banks set to pull out of UK early next year
Anthony Browne, head of the British Bankers’ Association, warns that major lenders are poised to hit relocate button (Observer)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -brexit-uk

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 9:24 pm

David. Cameron.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 9:25 pm

How far down the toilet exactly does the country need to go, before someone alerts the people (and its famous will) to the fact that this Brexit lark isn't a realistic option?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 9:41 pm

Grim.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 75391.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A midwife employed by the National Health Service has written an emotive letter describing the immense pressure she faces at work.

“I am a midwife and I wish I was dead,” she said in the piece, which was submitted anonymously to local paper the Liverpool Echo, before describing her job as “a black hole destroying my world”.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 10:05 pm

'Five on Brexit Island' added to Enid Blyton spoof series
Published August 1, 2016 by Lisa Campbell

http://www.thebookseller.com/news/five- ... ies-369521" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 10:07 pm

Either way the choice was terrible ...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 10:21 pm

Yes I did. Notice.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 22 Oct, 2016 10:50 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:David. Cameron.

He was just the Trojan Horse