Tuesday 25th October 2016

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 6:33 am

Morning All

A feast of Brexit articles to start the day.....

"Warning Euro judges could TAKE CONTROL over Article 50 terms"
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/724716 ... xit-clause" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Britain must pursue a ‘hard Brexit’ to create a more open economy"
https://www.ft.com/content/d709a6a8-912 ... 28cb934b78" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Four reasons why banks won't leave the City after Brexit"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... ter-brexi/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The second and third smack of a government machine trying to regain control of the agenda IMO.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 6:33 am

And the first could be a straw eurocrat I guess......

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 6:52 am

Morning all.

Glad to read that Corbyn has followed Owen Jones' suggestion of calling it a chaotic Brexit.

In the Commons yesterday evening (via the BBC news app) :-

'Labour MP Rob Marris continues the opposition's teasing of the Conservatives over the Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill, and its aim to control the cost of drugs for the NHS.

After Tory MP Kevin Foster accuses some drug companies of "profiteering", Mr Marris intervenes on his "fellow socialist".

He asks Mr Foster if there are other parts of the economy in which he would like "to address the issue of profiteering".

Mr Foster suggests jokingly that the Speaker might rebuke them for "going off the subject". Returning to the bill, he says the NHS is the only customer in this case and some drug manufacturers are "profiteering from illness and pain".

Mr Marris intervenes again to allege that the charge could be levelled at some parts of the defence supply industry as well.'

Ouch.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 7:11 am

Wow. For a fleeting moment I almost felt sorry for Hammond over the mess that Nero Osborne has left for him.

UK budget deficit plan off target – secret Treasury document

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... y-document" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 7:34 am

Good morfternoon.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 7:54 am

Morning.

Hope Jonny's Lemsip consumption has eased his lurgy.

& @Anatoly Kasparov
Here's some background, and info on candidates, about next week's Cardiff Grangetown by election.
Thought it might help you with your weekly roundup.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... s-12070347

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:06 am

Trump fundraisers caught accepting illicit donations in a Telegraph sting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... r-fundrai/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:13 am

StephenDolan wrote:Wow. For a fleeting moment I almost felt sorry for Hammond over the mess that Nero Osborne has left for him.

UK budget deficit plan off target – secret Treasury document

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... y-document" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What, I wonder, does "entirely back on track mean"? Surely (I'm thinking trains here) you're either on track or you're not.

Edited - tidy up

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:14 am

That was a triumph - I made it worse. Give up.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:28 am

Glad to see there's been action from the Electoral Commission over 2015 GE campaign spending rules being broken. Doh!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:31 am

yahyah wrote:Trump fundraisers caught accepting illicit donations in a Telegraph sting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... r-fundrai/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As much as I don't agree with the Super PAC model, they're typically at arms length from the candidate (or at least tiny Trump hands distance away), laying this directly at the feet of Trump and his team is slightly disingenuous.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:32 am

PorFavor wrote:That was a triumph - I made it worse. Give up.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:41 am

Morning all.

Oops.

Labour fined over 'Ed Stone' general election costs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37760562

You'd have to have a heart of...er...stone not to laugh at what they forgot to declare given its visibility.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:43 am

But Trump in the past has tried to make out he doesn't get funds via pacs.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:45 am

Whose blooming idea was that headstone ?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:48 am

yahyah wrote:Who's blooming idea was that headstone ?

Yes. I admit to thinking at the time that it was a bit of a "kiss of death" thing.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:57 am

Ed was too good hearted for British politics.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:03 am

Ian McNicol's tenure is surely over after this?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:06 am

PS. Tory spending is still under investigation by various police forces I believe so understandably not yet subject to EC penalties, if so.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:14 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Ian McNicol's tenure is surely over after this?

It should be. A Clusterfuck and gives the right an easy TheyreAllDoingIt response when the police finally get back.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:20 am

Corbyn's Campaign Director Says 'Intellectually Bankrupt' Labour MPs Need Replacing - The Huffington Post - UK
https://apple.news/A92lLcBjeQOKfuf6gD2fFiA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And he is very critical of Smith. “He ran a terrible campaign. It was absolutely disastrous. He has potentially finished his political career.

“One thing that I found really disturbing was in the last six weeks they essentially gave up on winning and they just sort of decided to burn the party to the ground.

Damning statement that. Also very true.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:24 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Ian McNicol's tenure is surely over after this?

Hello, JonnyLemsip. I hope you're feeling better.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:30 am

I'm still time-travelling (my mind feels like it is 5s behind my body) but better than I was at the weekend, thanks.
Also from the article

The party “needs a fundamental redesign”, he says. “The Labour Party is a £8m a year machine. If you were to sit down and design something to win an election you wouldn’t come up with Labour Party. At the moment it just doesn’t seem to be match fit.”

There are two things I want to see from Corbyn's tenure. New MPs to replace the all too many useless wankers in the PLP and reform of the party's structure so that it is at the least functional rather than the dysfunctional mess it is now. Clearly what this man is saying resonates with me.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:30 am

https://www.theguardian.com/football/pi ... -v-the-sun" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This made me smile

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:31 am

Well.

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 3m3 minutes ago

A source close to Zac Goldsmith MP (Con, Richmond Park) told the Sun he will resign and trigger a by-election if Heathrow is greenlit today.

But Boris and Justin Greening will be allowed, apparently, to register mild dissent. Not quite sure what their constituents will think of that. Not much I would imagine.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:37 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Corbyn's Campaign Director Says 'Intellectually Bankrupt' Labour MPs Need Replacing - The Huffington Post - UK
https://apple.news/A92lLcBjeQOKfuf6gD2fFiA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And he is very critical of Smith. “He ran a terrible campaign. It was absolutely disastrous. He has potentially finished his political career.

“One thing that I found really disturbing was in the last six weeks they essentially gave up on winning and they just sort of decided to burn the party to the ground.
Damning statement that. Also very true.

I said here the other day that I'd forgotten all about Owen Smith and, as I read the article, I had to find the bit that used his name in full. Up until then, I was thinking, "Smith? Who's Smith?". I (unenthusiastically) voted for him, but it's just as well he didn't win - not that I ever thought he would.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:51 am

If anyone's interested, this is the link to the health report that Owen Paterson's new thinktank (based in 55 Tufton Street. Fancy!) put out yesterday.

http://www.uk2020.org.uk/events/health/

For all of the "46,613 more die in the UK than the best country elsewhere" headlines, there's a lot of caveats in there.

There's also "a word from our sponsor" - Randox - which is "a highly innovative, UK based, global healthcare diagnostics company,driven by a desire to improve patient care through earlier and more accurate diagnosis."

That's probably why there is this:

CHAPTER 7 – ADOPTION OF INNOVATIVE THERAPIES AND DIAGNOSTICS

And guess what...in Owen Paterson's intro...

I am a consultant to Randox, a diagnostics company, and I am grateful to them for sponsoring this paper.

It's a bit odd since it ends with no real conclusion or recommendations. The researcher from the IEA does like citing his own work though...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:57 am

Oops. From the Sun so won't link.

FLIGHT OR FIGHT Theresa May clears criticism of Heathrow expansion from personal website ahead of runway announcement

THERESA May purged her personal website of blogposts slamming Heathrow expansion ahead of an expected green light for a new runway.

Until 2009 the PMs personal “tmay.co.uk” website had a whole subsection devoted to fighting a new runway at Heathrow — but now it has disappeared.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 9:58 am

Edu select committee proceedings on DfE management of finances on right now.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde ... c564359390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Could get a little sticky for the CEO of the Edu Funding Agency later.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:00 am

https://www.theguardian.com/football/pi ... -v-the-sun" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Squires on … Gary Lineker v the Sun

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:07 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Good-morning, PorFavor and everyone.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:15 am

From the select committee.

The chap being questioned is Amyas Morse - Comptroller and Auditor General, National Audit Office

And the two whispering in the background?

Permanent Secretary of the DfE and the CEO of the Education Funding Agency.

Comptroller and Auditor General, National Audit Office

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:31 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Oops.

Labour fined over 'Ed Stone' general election costs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37760562

You'd have to have a heart of...er...stone not to laugh at what they forgot to declare given its visibility.

All I feel is tenderness about this news, there's no real harm done.

Ed Miliband and other Labour party people help make the party worthwhile and it's not over. The good Labour does, can and will
do isn't confined to history, no languishing in perpetual opposition. There's nothing fundamentally bad or wrong with the UK Labour
party. Not perfect, not all policy or people honourable but Labour tries and often succeeds representing fairly, leading competently
most people and country. I've been thinking about this for some time and now is a good time to write it here.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:37 am

'our other “genuine concerns” – such as school and hospital funding, benefits and disability payments, the crushing of industries that formed the backbones of our local economies – are ignored or dismissed out of hand. They are cast as luxuries, an irresponsible “tax and spend” approach, or they are turned back on us as evidence of our own fecklessness and lack of ambition. When we say “we need benefits to live because you hollowed out our towns in pursuit of a flawed economic doctrine,” we are castigated for being workshy, and told we only have ourselves to blame. If we alter our complaints to blame foreign people it’s a different story. “I can’t get a council house because they’ve all been sold to private landlords,” gets nothing. “I can’t get a council house because they’ve all gone to bloody Muslims,” gets on the front page of the tabloids'

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ns-bigotry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:46 am

NHS STP's.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/jo ... cuts-plans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Councillors must look before they leap into secret NHS cuts plans
JOHN LISTER

In North West London the plans cover 8 boroughs. Only 2, Ealing and Hammersmith, demanded to see the full draft of the plans. They found all of the financial pages were still missing, and that the document specifically proposes to speed through the “reconfiguration” of Ealing Hospital, which both boroughs have consistently opposed.

But by then the other six NW London boroughs had already signed the incomplete draft, without even seeing it.

They were eager to get their hands on minimal extra funding (“transformational investment”) for social care – just £21m a year between 8 boroughs in 2017/18 rising to £34m a year in 2020/21.

I'm more worried about the NHS than I am about Brexit.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:55 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:If anyone's interested, this is the link to the health report that Owen Paterson's new thinktank (based in 55 Tufton Street. Fancy!) put out yesterday.

http://www.uk2020.org.uk/events/health/

For all of the "46,613 more die in the UK than the best country elsewhere" headlines, there's a lot of caveats in there.

There's also "a word from our sponsor" - Randox - which is "a highly innovative, UK based, global healthcare diagnostics company,driven by a desire to improve patient care through earlier and more accurate diagnosis."

That's probably why there is this:

CHAPTER 7 – ADOPTION OF INNOVATIVE THERAPIES AND DIAGNOSTICS
And guess what...in Owen Paterson's intro...

I am a consultant to Randox, a diagnostics company, and I am grateful to them for sponsoring this paper.
It's a bit odd since it ends with no real conclusion or recommendations. The researcher from the IEA does like citing his own work though...

I had a quick look at that yesterday, you don't need to be a statistician to see how dodgy the 46,613 figure is. Cherry-pick the best mortality rates for particular conditions from around the world and compare them with the rates in one country? Bollocks.

More detailed critique here.
http://margaretmccartney.com/2016/10/25 ... rivatised/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

page 32

The UK is noted to be spending comparatively little on healthcare.

The authors’ conclusion is that we have no way of knowing what would happen if we spent more.

I think there is quite a lot of evidence about what happens when you spend more on frontline staff and services. People tend to get better, safer, care.

Amen to that.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:55 am

yahyah wrote:Who's blooming idea was that headstone ?

Strangely, nobody has ever come forward to claim the (erm) credit

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:56 am

gilsey wrote:NHS STP's.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/jo ... cuts-plans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Councillors must look before they leap into secret NHS cuts plans
JOHN LISTER
In North West London the plans cover 8 boroughs. Only 2, Ealing and Hammersmith, demanded to see the full draft of the plans. They found all of the financial pages were still missing, and that the document specifically proposes to speed through the “reconfiguration” of Ealing Hospital, which both boroughs have consistently opposed.

But by then the other six NW London boroughs had already signed the incomplete draft, without even seeing it.

They were eager to get their hands on minimal extra funding (“transformational investment”) for social care – just £21m a year between 8 boroughs in 2017/18 rising to £34m a year in 2020/21.
I'm more worried about the NHS than I am about Brexit.

I suspect a lot of the people taken in by the "extra £49 trillion per second for the NHS" (or whatever claptrap it was ) are, too. Now.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:01 am

citizenJA wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Oops.

Labour fined over 'Ed Stone' general election costs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37760562

You'd have to have a heart of...er...stone not to laugh at what they forgot to declare given its visibility.
All I feel is tenderness about this news, there's no real harm done.

Ed Miliband and other Labour party people help make the party worthwhile and it's not over. The good Labour does, can and will
do isn't confined to history, no languishing in perpetual opposition. There's nothing fundamentally bad or wrong with the UK Labour
party. Not perfect, not all policy or people honourable but Labour tries and often succeeds representing fairly, leading competently
most people and country. I've been thinking about this for some time and now is a good time to write it here.

Labour have been written off many times before, only to come back. The sad thing is that it's because people have to keep relearning the lesson that Tory governments are disasters. Governments lose elections rather than oppositions win them.

Regarding the so called Ed Stone, it was a daft idea but I can see where they were coming from. The public perception was that politicians always go back on their word, the most startling examples being Clegg and his no tuition fees pledge and Cameron and his posters on no top down reorganisation of the NHS. But of course the media had to mock it.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:03 am

The media would have mocked him whatever he did

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:08 am

Womble44 wrote:The media would have mocked him whatever he did

Very true. It was abysmal.

Anyone who's leader of the Labour Party is going to get monstered by the media.

I remember John Smith getting a lot of flak. Then when he died the papers had to be nice about him. I also remember people being very confused reading fulsome praise of a man they'd previously been told was a waste of space.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:08 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-3776 ... ws_central" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Heathrow airport expansion 'approved'

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:18 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote:Who's blooming idea was that headstone ?
Strangely, nobody has ever come forward to claim the (erm) credit

It wasn't so much the stone as the vacuity of the pledges on it.

cf 1997.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:19 am

Though after the 1992 GE the papers turned on the Tories as well, so at least there was a bit more "balance". Who knows, things might get so bad it could happen again.......

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:21 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Though after the 1992 GE the papers turned on the Tories as well, so at least there was a bit more "balance". Who knows, things might get so bad it could happen again.......

How bad do they need to get, given that most newspaper owners want Brexit?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:31 am

Pretty bad, but the point is that could actually happen.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:33 am

This chart about newspaper support

https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Gu ... l--004.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

is ok, but really should include the FT and economist which are 'swing' papers (ie sometimes they support Labour, sometimes not).

Back in 2001 they both supported Labour. Back then only the Mail and Telegraph were Tory.

Papers tend to say what they think their readers want to hear, not what their owners think. They do that because they are in the business of trying to make money.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:39 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Papers tend to say what they think their readers want to hear, not what their owners think. They do that because they are in the business of trying to make money.

I'll venture Peter Oborne would disagree.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:41 am

I'm glad to see Grayling saying what a momentous day it is. Not mention of who delayed the decision and for how long. Funny that.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 11:42 am

Iceland's women leave work at 2.38pm to protest gender pay gap - The Independent
https://apple.news/AvCBGiuGMS7iMWhM05cIGig" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;