Thursday 3rd November 2016

Post by **refitman** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:23 am

Morning.

Just to flag some great posts late last night

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:43 am

A reprise for one of them:

Boris Johnson Says 'Brexit' Will Be A 'Titanic Success' - The Huffington Post - UK
https://apple.news/AgEizW1uFQdSrfsVbavc3mw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, we already knew that, thank you very much.

Alan Partridge: "Oh yeah, people go on about Titanic, Titanic... Let me tell you something about the Titanic. People forget that on the Titanic’s maiden voyage there were over 1,000 miles of uneventful, very pleasurable cruising before it hit the iceberg!"

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:09 am

I hate to speak up on Johnson's behalf but... as an Oxford Classics man he would have been using the word titanic as an adjective not as a reference to the Titanic. Titans, and all that, the reason the ship was called Titanic.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:13 am

The Titans also fell as a consequence of their own hubris. Fwiw.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:14 am

Must read analysis (several tweets in a chain, btw):

1 A little tweetstorm on Germany's #Brexit position and economic ties between GER & UK to follow. Not for faint-hearted among Brexiteers.

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tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:17 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:A reprise for one of them:

Boris Johnson Says 'Brexit' Will Be A 'Titanic Success' - The Huffington Post - UK
https://apple.news/AgEizW1uFQdSrfsVbavc3mw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, we already knew that, thank you very much.

Alan Partridge: "Oh yeah, people go on about Titanic, Titanic... Let me tell you something about the Titanic. People forget that on the Titanic’s maiden voyage there were over 1,000 miles of uneventful, very pleasurable cruising before it hit the iceberg!"

Also, Titanic had a clearly set out destination,
& didn't have 48% of it's passengers not wanting to go there.
(as opposed to actual final destination, where presumably, no-one wanted to go)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:20 am

The 48% are being locked in steerage.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:33 am

I missed this the other day.

The Welsh Government have ok'd scallop dredging to restart in Cardigan Bay so as not to stand in the way of 'economic activity'.

Very disappointing. Let's hope they are right and there's no damage to our wildlife.
We saw a group of dolphins close to Cei Newydd when we walked the coastal path two weeks ago.
It's one of the perks of living here. Important for the local tourist businesses too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-37822044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... s-12106649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 9:29 am

Morning all. My regular swimming session with the kids later but until then...

NHS structures 'complex and confused'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37846112

The way the NHS in England is organised is hindering its ability to meet its challenges, a review led by former Health Secretary Alan Milburn says.

Mr Milburn said the current system was "confused and complex".

The review, for consultants PwC, called for a gradual evolution of the structures, saying those who worked in the health service supported reform.

But the Department of Health said its plan for the future would be "delivered within the NHS's existing structures".

The PwC report was critical of the changes introduced in 2012 by then Health Secretary Andrew Lansley, which have resulted in the creation of "myriad" national organisations, including:

NHS England
NHS Improvement
Health Education England
Public Health England

The consultancy said it meant hospitals and other services faced the "daunting challenge of managing competing requirements".

Worst. Minister. Ever.

Apart from Grayling, Gove...actually there's quite a list now.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 9:31 am

Oh, and the prison service adding 2,500 new people?

Bet that's going down well in certain quarters...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 9:35 am

Oh dear....the "who do we blame?" is already happening...

Sam Coates Times Verified account
‏@SamCoatesTimes

I'm told Number 10 believes that government lawyers "haven't covered themselves in glory" over the handing of A50 case

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 9:37 am

This one is worth following for the A50 judgement apparently.

https://twitter.com/Greg_Callus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 9:39 am

https://akindoftrouble.wordpress.com/20 ... -too-much/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The lady doth protest too much
Troubled Famiies Programme

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 9:43 am

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... hed-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Adult social care underfunding is increasing the strain on A&E

The Government urgently needs to address the underfunding of adult social care to relieve pressure on A&E departments, says the Health Committee in its report on winter planning in A&E departments.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 9:53 am

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1526800 ... ss-figures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour Press
John Healey comments on child homelessness figures from Shelter

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:06 am

Claimants win.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:07 am

Wow.

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 1m1 minute ago

Court does not accept that argument of the Government. Claimants win!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:08 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Wow.

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 1m1 minute ago

Court does not accept that argument of the Government. Claimants win!

Cat, meet pigeons.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:08 am

Now wonder the AG wasn't in court!

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:12 am

Peter Walker ‏@peterwalker99 15s16 seconds ago

Maybe the government could appeal to thee European Court of Human Rights?

Hugo Rifkind ‏@hugorifkind 3m3 minutes ago

I suppose Brexiters must be wishing there was some sort of supranational court that could overrule ours about now, eh? OR IS THERE?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:14 am

I was watching Sky News (sorry), Faisal Islam outside the High Court couldn't stop grinning as he announced it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:15 am

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgments/ ... ean-union/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:21 am

gilsey wrote:I was watching Sky News (sorry), Faisal Islam outside the High Court couldn't stop grinning as he announced it.

He says it's because he'd predicted it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:23 am

Damian Green in front of Scottish Parliament Social Security Committee

http://www.scottishparliament.tv/Home/I ... e86e0baf3f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:26 am

Government has appealed
To be heard at SupremeCourt in Dec.
Then European Court.
#TheresaMay is now prisoner of #Tory Right..
#HighCourt

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:37 am

#Greg Callus(thanks Roger)

Biggest question right now is whether Parliament Acts can be used to give Gvt power if Commons passes Article 50 Bill but Lords rejects it.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:39 am

Well, well.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:40 am

Oh boo - no swimming as there's a massive snarl-up after an accident. Kids will be so disappointed.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 10:50 am

Government to appeal.

Supreme Court here we come.

If it does go to Parliament (gut instinct says it won't), are we expecting open warfare return?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:07 am

I've just heard Dominic Raab interviewed on the BBC TV News re the High Court outcome.

In essence, he doesn't like the existence of the right for people to challenge the Government in the courts. He tried to back-track a bit at the end but it was there for all to see and hear.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:09 am

Good-morning, everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:10 am

citizenJA wrote:Good-morning, everyone.

Morning! How are you today?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:13 am

StephenDolan wrote:Government to appeal.

Supreme Court here we come.

If it does go to Parliament (gut instinct says it won't), are we expecting open warfare return?

Yes, though its not just the Tories who might find that a bit uncomfortable tbph.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:15 am

How should Labour proceed?

I'm thinking that most people that voted don't really know what they voted for, more what they voted against.

If Labour sprinkled a bit of IDS (spit) sophistry dust would that help? The child poverty measure approach. You could still claim Brexit has taken place but pushing for a long, long list of what needs keeping and crucially identified by the general public as Good Things.
I'm glad we've got Starmer to push the Labour view.

And most of all, repeatedly punch the £350m extra for the NHS bruise whenever Hoey, Stuart and Mann complain in public.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:15 am

I now expect Nigel Farage to make a "reluctant" comeback (not that he ever really went).

Wonder how he'll spin not wanting to support the sovereignty of Parliament?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:21 am

StephenDolan wrote:How should Labour proceed?

I'm thinking that most people that voted don't really know what they voted for, more what they voted against.

If Labour sprinkled a bit of IDS (spit) sophistry dust would that help? The child poverty measure approach. You could still claim Brexit has taken place but pushing for a long, long list of what needs keeping and crucially identified by the general public as Good Things.
I'm glad we've got Starmer to push the Labour view.

And most of all, repeatedly punch the £350m extra for the NHS bruise whenever Hoey, Stuart and Mann complain in public.

At least Jeremy Corbyn has come out with an immediate statement on this. (Politics Live, Guardian)

That's a step in the right direction. At least he hasn't appeared to distance himself by simply ignoring it - which is what I consider he usually does.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:27 am

The president of the European commission Jean-Claude Juncker will speak to Theresa May by phone on Friday, at her request, his spokesman told reporters in Brussels. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

A very pointed comment - salt in the wound.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:28 am

I see that some are trying to get the "snap election" ball rolling again after this judgement. I'm still not sure how it would be s simple to achieve that, personally.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:32 am

Labour just needs to play a straight bat on this. They have decided their approach, they have two capable politicians overseeing it and I hope they will keep their nerve.

My feeling is that May will be unable to bring a proposal to the House that Labour can support. Of course people will scream about Labour ignoring the will of the people etc etc, but Labour just has to keep saying that that they can only support a Brexit that works for ordinary folk, not a "Tory Brexit" for the wealthy.

If they can do this, stay calm and have broad support from the party (!) the pressure will all be on May and the Brexiteers.

Fingers crossed.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:41 am

Political journalists seem to missing the whole 'snap election' speculation stuff. I guess they're so used to responding to these types of situations with a 'snap election' story that they simply can't turn it off now 'snap elections' are no more. Because although there are undoubtedly ways to get around or repeal the Parliaments Act, I can see no way it could possibly be done quickly enough for any ensuing election to be described as being 'snappy'!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:52 am

Iain Duncan Smith, the Conservative former work and pensions secretary and prominent leave campaigner, says he thinks most MPs would vote to invoke article 50. But he says that he does not think the courts have the right to tell the government what to do. Parliament has already decided that the decision about leaving the EU should be taken by the people in the referendum, he says.

Technically parliament decided the referendum would be advisory, so he's basically wrong, although in spirit I suspect a lot of people would agree. I think the counter argument must be that because parliament decided to hold the referendum, it's for parliament to act upon the result.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:55 am

From the G live blog:

Here is Caroline Lucas, the Green party’s co-leader, on the court judgement.

"We welcome this ruling which shows that ministers do not have the power to trigger article 50 without consulting parliament.

Parliament must have the opportunity to debate and vote on triggering Article 50, rather than a group of ministers at the top table having total control over this country’s future place in the world.

The Green party will continue to fight to protect free movement, workers’ rights and the vital environmental protections we currently have as part of the EU".

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 11:59 am

It is inescapably true that a popular argument with pro-Brexiteers was "restoring parliamentary sovereignty" or "letting our MPs make our own laws".

I think that maybe a few in the government are still spooked by the idea MPs might try to block Brexit totally. Rightly or wrongly, that is not a realistic proposition IMO.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 12:01 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Labour just needs to play a straight bat on this. They have decided their approach, they have two capable politicians overseeing it and I hope they will keep their nerve.

My feeling is that May will be unable to bring a proposal to the House that Labour can support. Of course people will scream about Labour ignoring the will of the people etc etc, but Labour just has to keep saying that that they can only support a Brexit that works for ordinary folk, not a "Tory Brexit" for the wealthy.

If they can do this, stay calm and have broad support from the party (!) the pressure will all be on May and the Brexiteers.

Fingers crossed.

Yes - keep supporting the basic outcome of the referendum and just let the whole thing implode (hopefully) by itself. It will be a terrible shame and all that, but . . .

Edited to add -

Although there's still the pro-"Out" Labour MPs to be taken into account which will, no doubt, throw up problems (from a "Remain" perspective).

We'd be better off with Ed Miliband still as leader to steer us through - given the misgivings many still have regarding Jeremy Corbyn's feelings re the EU.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 12:02 pm

David Davies MPVerified account
‏@DavidTCDavies
Unelected judges calling the shots. This is precisely why we voted out. Power to the people!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 12:08 pm

Owen Smith ✔ @OwenSmith_MP
Labour should amend Article 50 Bill to give the British people the final say on real terms of Brexit. Or I will seek that from backbenches.
11:39 AM - 3 Nov 2016

Post by **adam** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 12:09 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Iain Duncan Smith, the Conservative former work and pensions secretary and prominent leave campaigner, says he thinks most MPs would vote to invoke article 50. But he says that he does not think the courts have the right to tell the government what to do. Parliament has already decided that the decision about leaving the EU should be taken by the people in the referendum, he says.
Technically parliament decided the referendum would be advisory, so he's basically wrong, although in spirit I suspect a lot of people would agree. I think the counter argument must be that because parliament decided to hold the referendum, it's for parliament to act upon the result.

(Changing the bold emphasis from the last sentence to the one before)

IDS has been an MP for years, has been a party leader, a shadow minister, a minster and is a member of the privy council. It is, in another small and sad little way, despicable that this odious man can talk such obvious and blatant nonsense just to play a stupid populist card.

Or perhaps he just doesn't believe in the British constitution - because wherever it is it is clearly about balances of power between executive, legislature, judiciary and the people.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 12:13 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

David Davies MPVerified account
‏@DavidTCDavies
Unelected judges calling the shots. This is precisely why we voted out. Power to the people!

He is a serial idiot.

Lest we forget...

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PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 12:13 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

David Davies MPVerified account
‏@DavidTCDavies
Unelected judges calling the shots. This is precisely why we voted out. Power to the people!

I obviously missed that argument during the referendum campaign. I thought that it was fine so long as they were British judges. How times change.