Monday 7th November 2016

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:23 am

yahyah wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
yahyah wrote:''2. However unacceptable we'll still vote for it.''

It did seem like that, I only heard a brief clip.

Over the last couple of weeks I've heard comments from people, in life not online, that are similar to concerns Willow, AngryAW, myself and others mention here.

An old Welsh gent selling poppies made the point that people like him are feeling they've been sold out. The couple who bought poppies before me were complaining about Brexit. He made specific criticism of what he saw as Labour letting people down over Brexit since the referendum vote. He had been a Labour member in the past. He told me his father had been a lifelong Labour man and had ''met Keir Hardy'' as if that was a symbol of his socialism. He despaired at the state of British politics and the effect Ukip have had. Let's just say he felt Labour's time was over and they are a spent force.

Corbyn and others may be playing a clever political game. If they aren't, where does that leave people who feel like the poppy seller ?

Maybe Paul could pop down from Yorkshire and tell him he's wrong ? Only half joking.
At the next election posts on online forums may not be enough to convince people they are wrong.
But this mess was not of Labour's making.

That's what I really don't understand. Why do people spend hours agonising over the minutiae of the latest utterances of Starmer, Watson and Corbyn looking for tiny inconsistencies when it really doesn't matter? Labour are united in calling on May to bring her proposals to Parliament. Why can't we just all support that and turn our attention to the Tories?

If people want an unambiguous remain party, the Lib Dems and the Greens are available. I'll be sad to see Labour voters turn that way, but so be it. Labour cannot IMO present itself right now as a hard Remain party. It would be electoral suicide. What would you say to Rebecca Riots about the current situation? Do you think she's planning to vote Labour next time?
Yes, we know the mess is one that the Tories made. Not sure anyone would dispute that.

Yes, Labour are right in pushing May to bring proposals to the House.
But...Labour seem to be saying that no matter how crap those proposals are we'll just have to put up with it.

And maybe RR could come back and tell us what she thinks of this unholy mess.
Did Mr RR believe, like people like Dreda Say Mitchell that they were voting for a left wing Brexit ?
How did they think that would miraculously occur when the Tories are in charge ?

Fine...Labour can act to keep the votes of those who put us into this mess.
They may lose a lot of others though.

That's what the headline writers are saying, but that's not what Corbyn, Starmer or Watson have said unless there's a link to the contrary?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:23 am

Enjoying the debating here today by the way. Elsewhere it's... interesting.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:24 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote: The polls tell us, however, that more people in this country are of the opinion that we should stay in the single market than not. As such, the party that supports this position has a greater pool of support than a party supporting leaving the single market. Brexit doesn't mean hard Brexit, it means leaving the European Union. Ed Miliband has been good at pointing out no one has voted to leave the single market. We need a lot more of such interventions, from all quarters, not just Labour, to ensure a Brexit outside the European Union but inside the single market remains an option in the public mind - not just remains an option but is presented as the preferred option that fulfills the mandate of the referendum on the one hand whilst securing Britain's economic interests on the other. The Libdems were being attacked for their position of wanting to stay in the single market by John Humphries on R4 this morning as trying to subvert the outcome of the referendum. This is a fallacy, there was no indication during the referendum that "out" meant out of the single market also, but it is a fallacy that if oft repeated will start to feel like a fact. If the Libdems are left to fight for the single market alone and fail in the face of a hostile media and slick government spin machine, it won't just be the Libdems that are defeated but the possibility of staying in the single market with it.
The most important thing about this is not just that we remain in the single market but that we do so as a consensus. It's not enough to "win" in parliament, the arguments have to be made to win over the public as well. Putting off the fight will only make the task harder in the end and meanwhile those who already want to remain in the single market are feeling let down by both the Tories and Labour.
Well they shouldn't be feeling let down by Labour should they? Corbyn has said loud and clear that access to the Single Market is the most important thing.

ACCESS

The government's policy is best possible ACCESS.

North Korea has ACCESS.

I personally can guarantee now that after Brexit the UK will have ACCESS.

ACCESS is not the same thing at all as being a MEMBER of the single market.

North Korea does not have FULL access to the single market and you know it.

I passionately believe that it would be better to attack May than Corbyn if, as I do, you want to save the UK's membership of the EU. I really do.

Have a great day all. Work to do

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:28 am

Anna Soubry MP ‏@Anna_Soubry 3h3 hours ago
Heaven help us! Suzanne Evans @BBCr4today talking dangerous nonsense. "Democratic control" of judges. It's the way of fascism.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:31 am

Womble44 wrote:From Labour 's point of view though, it depends who the majority of people that have changed their mind and how important they view membership of the EU; a lot of people aren't really that fussed about the single market (which Is a shame).

Then we need to change that, we need to convince people that staying in the single market is in their best interests and that they should be unhappy with anything less. We need to make them feel that if the Tories take us out of the single market they are making a mistake, that they have let us down.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:32 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote: North Korea does not have FULL access to the single market and you know it.

I passionately believe that it would be better to attack May than Corbyn if, as I do, you want to save the UK's membership of the EU. I really do.

Have a great day all. Work to do

"Access" is utterly meaningless.

North Korea has it. Both the Tories and Labour seek it. You can't fail.

Membership is completely different.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:44 am

But it is meaningless both ways, then. There are varying degrees of "access" and you know this perfectly well.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:48 am

It's been a rather tumultuous year to say the least, and it's not over yet, for late night election watchers the NYT is a free wall for the next three days.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:51 am

Willow904 wrote:
Womble44 wrote:From Labour 's point of view though, it depends who the majority of people that have changed their mind and how important they view membership of the EU; a lot of people aren't really that fussed about the single market (which Is a shame).
Then we need to change that, we need to convince people that staying in the single market is in their best interests and that they should be unhappy with anything less. We need to make them feel that if the Tories take us out of the single market they are making a mistake, that they have let us down.

I agree. I'm going to try and explain my views based on personal experience. Maybe my office is particularly unrepresentative, but what I found was that people viewed the EU in 'us and them' terms and expressed their gripes with the EU with comments about them 'telling us what to do' rather than seeing us as part of it, and in many ways this rhetoric is similar to the way people talk about politics generally.

The complaint seems to be more emotional than rational and I worry that convincing moderate brexiters (I.e. The ones that don't wank on about sovereignty on Twitter) will require more than trying to approach it from a policy point of view. That stuff is more for people like us that spend our free time talking about this stuff.

I've softened my views on brexiters after listening to this podcast about the rise of Trump in the US:

https://m.soundcloud.com/crackedpod/trump-country" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Which I'd recommend, although you may want to skip past the host's questionable music choices between segments. Also it's quite long, but I enjoyed it.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 11:58 am

David Head ‏@DavidHeadViews 16h16 hours ago
The beginning of the end for Enoch Powell was "rivers of blood" speech. We must make #Farage's talk of civil unrest the beginning of his end

Fully agree with this

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:01 pm

The tories themselves had some shreds of decency and morality in Powell's days, they have none now that I can see.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:19 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:But it is meaningless both ways, then. There are varying degrees of "access" and you know this perfectly well.

Right, so if you ever here any politician saying they want "access" to the single market you know they are bullshitting you.

So, unsurprisingly, Theresa May David Davis and "Dr" Laim Fox etc say this a lot.

So too do Corbyn, McDonnell and Starmer.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:21 pm

Yes, the point is that IN PRACTICE what those two groups mean by that - and desire from it - is rather different.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:22 pm

Doubts cast on Theresa May's pledge to protect workers' rights post-Brexit - the guardian
https://apple.news/A-ewWLN2TSyOeTxfE_j751Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, duh.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:26 pm

Smart energy technology 'stymied by current policy' - the guardian
https://apple.news/ABfcEXVUSTO6UVQ_vAAqo2w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:30 pm

Theresa May vows to relax visa system if India takes back 'tens of thousands' of overstayers - The Telegraph
https://apple.news/AWfcR6B9hTYasB2l0XP6yZg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A cunning plan.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:31 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Theresa May vows to relax visa system if India takes back 'tens of thousands' of overstayers - The Telegraph
https://apple.news/AWfcR6B9hTYasB2l0XP6yZg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A cunning plan.

I don't understand, are India refusing to allow re-entry of their citizens?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:33 pm

She's going to build a wall and make them pay for it. Or something.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:35 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:49 pm

How does Donald Trump lie? A fact checker's final guide - the guardian
https://apple.news/ApqtZvGJ8TRK8nELcvNSbkw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Guardian has catalogued more than 100 falsehoods made by the Republican nominee over the last 150 days, and sorted them according to theme.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:58 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, the point is that IN PRACTICE what those two groups mean by that - and desire from it - is rather different.

So maybe they could use different language to reflect those differences? By "full access" some people mean being "in" or a "member of" the single market, others mean not being "in" the single market, in the way, say, Norway is, but simply having a wide ranging trade agreement like, say, Canada have just signed. Canada obviously haven't just accepted free movement of people. By using the word "access" rather than "member of", some people will assume that means no free movement of people, whereas if you use the word "member of" people more clearly understand you are accepting the 4 freedoms of movement, including people. If your intention is to remain in the single market, although the term "full access" could be accurate, it could also be misleading. "Full member of" is much clearer if that is your intention. From Corbyn, McDonnell and Starmer's very deliberate and careful use of the term "access" rather than "in" or "member of" I can only conclude they are trying to disguise their intention of remaining in the single market or they do not wish to remain in the single market. The first is dishonest, the second is, imo, disastrous.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 1:13 pm

We are hoping for something they will not give.
The lack of clarity is deliberate.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 1:16 pm

Looks like Andrew Sparrow was just as mystified judging by his early entry on his blog.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 1:43 pm

From the G live blog:

Starmer says Labour wants UK to stay in customs union.

It's the barest minimum I'd expect, it's ridiculous that it should even be in doubt, but at least it's unequivocal.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 1:44 pm

#Gary Lineker

If Leicester retain the title I'll do the first MOTD next season naked, standing on my head while Shearer and Wrighty beat me with a stick.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 1:47 pm

Excellent article on not only the court decision last week but also the press reaction to it.

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/11 ... to-miller/

The broader press reaction to the decision in Miller has been outrageous. The Daily Mail ran the headline ‘Enemies of the People’, underneath pictures of the judges, whilst, not to be outdone, The Daily Express enjoined its readers to rise up and ‘fight, fight, fight’. Reporting in several of the papers was marred by thinly disguised racism and homophobia. Everyone is entitled to have, and to express, criticism of judges; judges wield significant power, and so must expect scrutiny and, from time to time, censure, from the media. But the reporting of Miller, characterised by a toxic mix of bigotry and unsubtle hints of violence, crossed the line from reasonable critique into an attempt at intimidation.

I've seen some on my Twitter timeline justify what the press were saying as free speech. But there has to be limits.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 1:52 pm

Also from the G live blog:

In his Financial Times (subscription) column today Philip Stephens suggests this is exactly what May is planning.

Privately as well as publicly, the prime minister dismisses binary alternatives. She prefers to contemplate what you might call a “long” Brexit. Britain will be out of the union within two years or so but nothing too disruptive will happen until many years beyond that.

Mrs May has two political goals. The first is to guarantee that Britain is formally outside the EU well before the election due in mid-2020: “The people voted for Brexitand I delivered it.” The second is to ensure that the costs of severing ties with the EU are not so high as to sink the economy and with it the government’s standing.

Her preference, though nothing yet is decided, seems to be an Article 50 negotiationthat has as one of its central objectives agreement on a long transition period — five years or more — in which most of the trickier aspects of the divorce are settled.

The lack of clarity looks set to continue for some considerable time. This can't be good for the UK's long term prospects.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 1:53 pm

HindleA wrote:#Gary Lineker

If Leicester retain the title I'll do the first MOTD next season naked, standing on my head while Shearer and Wrighty beat me with a stick.

I think there is a fair chance that he might just wriggle out of this one

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 1:58 pm

Judging by the responses (including SH) there is an evergrowing list of things of which Daniel Hannan is entirely ignorant.

Daniel Hannan Verified account
‏@DanielJHannan

The concept of elected judges has commentators fainting like Victorian matrons, but the system works pretty well in the United States.

It was pointed out to him that there is no "system".

Post by **adam** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 2:02 pm

So, about those 170 questions...

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 2:14 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... led-voters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brexit: CPS considers complaint that leave campaigns misled voters......

...... If a case was brought successfully, it would not have any bearing on the referendum result or prevent the UK leaving the EU, but could result in criminal punishment of anyone held responsible by the courts for making false statements.

Definitely worth keeping an eye on

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 2:16 pm

Does anyone reckon Farrage will be able to get 100k out for his march? I reckon the EDL and NF contingent will turn up, UAF will also turn up, and maybe the kippers will be subjected to some of the methods they often advocate for other protests (kettling, etc).

Post by **adam** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 2:20 pm

Womble44 wrote:Does anyone reckon Farrage will be able to get 100k out for his march? I reckon the EDL and NF contingent will turn up, UAF will also turn up, and maybe the kippers will be subjected to some of the methods they often advocate for other protests (kettling, etc).

And though I've never been in favour of police brutality
When the huntsman comes a'marching
Give him one for me, officer
Give him one for me

Amend as necessary

Chris TT - When The Huntsman Comes A'Marching

[youtube]0jlRULGRIsQ[/youtube]

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 2:31 pm

Saying that, I'm willing to bet this protest will be trailed and covered fairly heavily.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 2:59 pm

Willow904 wrote:From the G live blog:
Starmer says Labour wants UK to stay in customs union.
It's the barest minimum I'd expect, it's ridiculous that it should even be in doubt, but at least it's unequivocal.

Credit where it is due. It is *something*.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:10 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 02701.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pentonville prison: Two escaped inmates 'left mannequins in beds'

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:24 pm

Womble44 wrote:Saying that, I'm willing to bet this protest will be trailed and covered fairly heavily.

Norman Smith will disagree

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:25 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Willow904 wrote:From the G live blog:
Starmer says Labour wants UK to stay in customs union.
It's the barest minimum I'd expect, it's ridiculous that it should even be in doubt, but at least it's unequivocal.

Credit where it is due. It is *something*.

As I said, Starmer is doing a good job

And the leader deserves some credit there, for letting him do it.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:37 pm

Womble44 wrote:Does anyone reckon Farrage will be able to get 100k out for his march? I reckon the EDL and NF contingent will turn up, UAF will also turn up, and maybe the kippers will be subjected to some of the methods they often advocate for other protests (kettling, etc).

If there is a large turnout, however, newspaper comment sections might be a bit more bearable for the day

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:41 pm

Womble44 wrote:
Womble44 wrote:Does anyone reckon Farrage will be able to get 100k out for his march? I reckon the EDL and NF contingent will turn up, UAF will also turn up, and maybe the kippers will be subjected to some of the methods they often advocate for other protests (kettling, etc).
If there is a large turnout, however, newspaper comment sections might be a bit more bearable for the day

Kickstarter needed for cloud seeding the route.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:46 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Willow904 wrote:From the G live blog: It's the barest minimum I'd expect, it's ridiculous that it should even be in doubt, but at least it's unequivocal.

Credit where it is due. It is *something*.
As I said, Starmer is doing a good job

And the leader deserves some credit there, for letting him do it.

I'd really love it if a proper mainstream Labour MP were showing us what actual opposition looks like. I'd be first on here saying "Starmer is showing Corbyn how he should be doing his job."

I want a mainstream MP to be in a position to replace Corbyn before the General Election, and as Starmer is one of the very few who has agreed to serve he is well placed to be that person.

Unfortunately he has been largely hopeless. Whether that is because of Labour's own position being indistinguishable from that of the Tories, so that he is restricted to saying 'you're rubbish', or because he is not himself very good I am not sure.

I am now leaning towards the latter. He was utterly hopeless on radio 4 this morning.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:50 pm

Guy Verhofstadt
2 hrs ·
It's important that we look to the interests of the 48% people who didn't vote for #Brexit. If Theresa May wont, the European Union must. It's also vital to understand that the internal market is based on four freedoms — not three, or two. Goods, services, capital, and the free movement of people. These cannot be separated. Just two of the key points I made today in an interview on the upcoming Brexit negotiations with Business Insider.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:50 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
Womble44 wrote:
Womble44 wrote:Does anyone reckon Farrage will be able to get 100k out for his march? I reckon the EDL and NF contingent will turn up, UAF will also turn up, and maybe the kippers will be subjected to some of the methods they often advocate for other protests (kettling, etc).
If there is a large turnout, however, newspaper comment sections might be a bit more bearable for the day
Kickstarter needed for cloud seeding the route.

I feel like there's scope to have fun with it along these lines:

https://news.vice.com/article/german-to ... -walkathon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:58 pm

Law and policy ‏@Law_and_policy 38s39 seconds ago

"They did not like the decision the first time round, so they want another go," says the minister who literally has announced an appeal.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 4:08 pm

Maybe line the route with EU flags and donate to refugee charities

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 4:14 pm

Law and policy ‏@Law_and_policy 29m29 minutes ago

Government appears to be adopting on an all-or-nothing approach, banking on a victory in the Supreme Court appeal. Wow.

Nothing - nothing at all - from the government on what happens if they do not win the Supreme Court appeal.

Staggering.

Although hardly surprising given they had no contingency plans for losing the referendum.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 4:24 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Law and policy ‏@Law_and_policy 38s39 seconds ago

"They did not like the decision the first time round, so they want another go," says the minister who literally has announced an appeal.

A summary of arguments I've seen raised elsewhere.

May makes Davis the Brexit minister. Inspired, shows strong leadership from the pm.

Corbyn makes Starmer the shadow Brexit minister. Desperate. Shows how weak Corbyn is.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 5:28 pm

In addition to my comment earlier, look at the way our government is approaching article 50 negotiations; it starts with the assumption that the EU wants to screw us over in any deal, and that is how we've approached the EU at every opportunity.

It is assumed that we are in an adversarial relationship, and it is this unconscious bias that needs to be overcome before you can convince people it's in their interests to remain in the EU. At the moment, many brexiters won't listen to the message because it is in support of their 'enemy'.

This is why I thinks Labour wouldn't have much to gain electorally by outright opposing brexit.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 5:31 pm

Willow904 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... led-voters
Brexit: CPS considers complaint that leave campaigns misled voters......

...... If a case was brought successfully, it would not have any bearing on the referendum result or prevent the UK leaving the EU, but could result in criminal punishment of anyone held responsible by the courts for making false statements.
Definitely worth keeping an eye on

“None of us is willing to allow the UK to be dragged down to some kind of populist ‘who can lie and deceive the most?’ race to the bottom, such as we witnessed earlier this year.”

I'd like to say let's hope they win. However, it'll just lead to the 'punishment budget' style of politics instead, which they've excluded from this case because it was expressed as an opinion rather than as a fact. Which means that all you'll see is an * next to the '£350 million' and a small * in our opinion on the 'rear of the bus'.

Better than nothing though.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 5:35 pm

In India reporters travelling with Theresa May bumped into Geoffrey Boycott in a hotel lobby, and he has been singing the praises of the prime minister. She’ll be pleased. She once said she had been a Boycott fan all her life.

Politics Live blog ATL.

Figures. Wife-beater and the most boring English cricketer in history. How very conservative of her.