Monday 7th November 2016

[HindleA]

Oh go on then,was waiting for Paul,to start us off
Morning


Over-65s advised to eat hot meals to cope with winter

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37892458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


https://www.nhs.uk/staywell/#lsZKfolo8WikKlkZ.97" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HindleA]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Latest Election Polls 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... ecast.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[StephenDolan]

Morning all.

Prisons and fish fingers making the headlines. Interesting times!

[StephenDolan]

Humphrys pushing the feckless workshy narrative. Classy.

[Willow904]

Humphrys pushing the feckless workshy narrative. Classy.

Also pushing the "Brexit means hard Brexit" line this morning, trying to frame the Libdems as thwarting the will of the people for striving to stay in the single market, even though a majority support this when polled. Those who want to stay in the single market need to fight back on this. Ed Miliband was good on this a few weeks ago, but the line that people voted to leave the EU, not to destroy the economy needs to be repeated incessantly, if supporters of the single market route hope to win out because it's going to be an uphill battle if the BBC keeps ramming home the government's hard Brexit message.

[HindleA]

This John Humphrys?


https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/ ... n-humphrys" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


BBC programme on welfare reforms broke impartiality and accuracy rules

[StephenDolan]

This John Humphrys?


https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/ ... n-humphrys" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


BBC programme on welfare reforms broke impartiality and accuracy rules

I know, colour me surprised.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

This is a good piece in the Mirror

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3- ... ll-9209388#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3-worried-single-mums-tell

[SpinningHugo]

Starmer/Labour's position is hopeless.

1. The government must tell us its negotiating position

2. However unacceptable, we'll still vote for it.

[JonnyT1234]

Too short an interview to really get into things but interesting nonetheless:

The EU's chief Brexit negotiator told us why the deal Britain wants makes no sense - Business Insider UK
https://apple.news/AWa0OPdWgMZWFXUimfJy72A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Verhofstadt clearly positioning Brexit as the opportunity the EU has been waiting for to make changes and increase the strength of the union.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Starmer/Labour's position is hopeless.

1. The government must tell us its negotiating position

2. However unacceptable, we'll still vote for it.

Patrick Wintour, that well known Corbynista, doesn't seem to agree with you.

Patrick WintourVerified account ‏@patrickwintour
Labour's Keir Starmer repeats: "We will not simply vote down Article 50" - this leaves open right to amend/ insert negotiation objectives.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I didn't hear it, but it doesn't sound that difficult to me.

Labour won't vote down Article 50 on principle but they will have a right good go at the legislation when it comes to Parliament.

We use this language in every day life. Son I don't disagree on principle that you can go to your mate's party at the weekend, but I need to know more about what the plans are.

[SpinningHugo]

Starmer/Labour's position is hopeless.

1. The government must tell us its negotiating position

2. However unacceptable, we'll still vote for it.

Patrick Wintour, that well known Corbynista, doesn't seem to agree with you.

Patrick WintourVerified account ‏@patrickwintour
Labour's Keir Starmer repeats: "We will not simply vote down Article 50" - this leaves open right to amend/ insert negotiation objectives.

Did you listen to him?

I did.

It was embarrassing.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Starmer/Labour's position is hopeless.

1. The government must tell us its negotiating position

2. However unacceptable, we'll still vote for it.

Patrick Wintour, that well known Corbynista, doesn't seem to agree with you.

Patrick WintourVerified account ‏@patrickwintour
Labour's Keir Starmer repeats: "We will not simply vote down Article 50" - this leaves open right to amend/ insert negotiation objectives.

Did you listen to him?

I did.

It was embarrassing.

No I didn't. And I don't value your view on this subject for reasons obvious to all here. Thanks for offering it anyway.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

@SpinningHugo I would love, however, to hear what you think of the Government's latest stance on Article 50, if you'd care to share that.

[JonnyT1234]

Let me save Hugo the bother of replying. He doesn't like it. Because of Jeremy Corbyn.

[yahyah]

''2. However unacceptable we'll still vote for it.''

It did seem like that, I only heard a brief clip.

Over the last couple of weeks I've heard comments from people, in life not online, that are similar to concerns Willow, AngryAW, myself and others mention here.

An old Welsh gent selling poppies made the point that people like him are feeling they've been sold out. The couple who bought poppies before me were complaining about Brexit. He made specific criticism of what he saw as Labour letting people down over Brexit since the referendum vote. He had been a Labour member in the past. He told me his father had been a lifelong Labour man and had ''met Keir Hardy'' as if that was a symbol of his socialism. He despaired at the state of British politics and the effect Ukip have had. Let's just say he felt Labour's time was over and they are a spent force.

Corbyn and others may be playing a clever political game. If they aren't, where does that leave people who feel like the poppy seller ?

Maybe Paul could pop down from Yorkshire and tell him he's wrong ? Only half joking.
At the next election posts on online forums may not be enough to convince people they are wrong.

[yahyah]

I'll get my coat.

[SpinningHugo]

@SpinningHugo I would love, however, to hear what you think of the Government's latest stance on Article 50, if you'd care to share that.

Sure. It is appalling. That we aren't seeking to even remain within the single market as an interim stage to full Brexit is a disaster. The repeated claims that we are seeking utterly meaningless "access" to the single market is little short of a farce. They have no clue.

Such a shame that Labour's position is exactly the same.

[yahyah]

Meanwhile, Assange is hell bent on helping Trump and Clinton is no longer just being accused of being a satanist but now she is a murderer who arranged the death of her lover.

Has the world gone mad ?

[JonnyT1234]

UK manufacturers putting off investment plans, poll shows - the guardian
https://apple.news/AeeBjaU1ATMi7SHklj_hwug" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure you'll all be astonished by this.

[StephenDolan]

Starmer wasn't putting across a tight message, partially because he was avoiding the Gotcha! of saying no we won't vote for A50. The pressure has to be on the Tories to say what their plans are. It's too easy to change the media narrative to Labour ignore the will of the people. Keep the powder dry. My main issue with the interview was the lack of referencing the Tories manifesto regarding the single market.

[JonnyT1234]

Let's face it everyone, if Corbyn was stating that Labour wanted to remain in the single market or push for a reversal of the referendum, Hugo would be on here telling us how inept and crap an idea it was. Just ignore the wanker. He's trolling. Again.

[SpinningHugo]

Let's face it everyone, if Corbyn was stating that Labour wanted to remain in the single market or push for a reversal of the referendum, Hugo would be on here telling us how inept and crap an idea it was. Just ignore the wanker. He's trolling. Again.

Corbyn was first class on immigration and freedom of movement. Far, far better than the idiotic Ukip accommodating nonsense coming from Reeves, Umunna etc.

He (and Burgon) were also good on the judge-bashing of the Mail. Truss and May have been a disgrace.

Does that make Labour's policy on Brexit good?

No.

We have an unholy alliance between the anti-single market left (Corbyn/McDonnell) and those mainly northern MPs who want to cut immigration because they fear the rise of Ukip.

The person I was criticising on this occasion was Starmer. Starmer is the 'moderate' MP who is best placed to challenge Corbyn, and so if my agenda was to just attack him I'd be presumably saying how brilliant Starmer was.

Sorry, but I am someone who feels strongly about Brexit. I had thought this was a politics forum, and this is easily the biggest question of our era. Not everything is about Corbyn, who is an irrelevance on this really.

[JonnyT1234]

In India Theresa May is addressing the press with Narendra Modi, the Indian prime ministers. But they will not be taking questions, according to the Financial Times’ Jim Pickard.

May running scared of the press. Not ours, of course but India's.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

''2. However unacceptable we'll still vote for it.''

It did seem like that, I only heard a brief clip.

Over the last couple of weeks I've heard comments from people, in life not online, that are similar to concerns Willow, AngryAW, myself and others mention here.

An old Welsh gent selling poppies made the point that people like him are feeling they've been sold out. The couple who bought poppies before me were complaining about Brexit. He made specific criticism of what he saw as Labour letting people down over Brexit since the referendum vote. He had been a Labour member in the past. He told me his father had been a lifelong Labour man and had ''met Keir Hardy'' as if that was a symbol of his socialism. He despaired at the state of British politics and the effect Ukip have had. Let's just say he felt Labour's time was over and they are a spent force.

Corbyn and others may be playing a clever political game. If they aren't, where does that leave people who feel like the poppy seller ?

Maybe Paul could pop down from Yorkshire and tell him he's wrong ? Only half joking.
At the next election posts on online forums may not be enough to convince people they are wrong.

But this mess was not of Labour's making.

That's what I really don't understand. Why do people spend hours agonising over the minutiae of the latest utterances of Starmer, Watson and Corbyn looking for tiny inconsistencies when it really doesn't matter? Labour are united in calling on May to bring her proposals to Parliament. Why can't we just all support that and turn our attention to the Tories?

If people want an unambiguous remain party, the Lib Dems and the Greens are available. I'll be sad to see Labour voters turn that way, but so be it. Labour cannot IMO present itself right now as a hard Remain party. It would be electoral suicide. What would you say to Rebecca Riots about the current situation? Do you think she's planning to vote Labour next time?

[SpinningHugo]

''2. However unacceptable we'll still vote for it.''

It did seem like that, I only heard a brief clip.

Over the last couple of weeks I've heard comments from people, in life not online, that are similar to concerns Willow, AngryAW, myself and others mention here.

An old Welsh gent selling poppies made the point that people like him are feeling they've been sold out. The couple who bought poppies before me were complaining about Brexit. He made specific criticism of what he saw as Labour letting people down over Brexit since the referendum vote. He had been a Labour member in the past. He told me his father had been a lifelong Labour man and had ''met Keir Hardy'' as if that was a symbol of his socialism. He despaired at the state of British politics and the effect Ukip have had. Let's just say he felt Labour's time was over and they are a spent force.

Corbyn and others may be playing a clever political game. If they aren't, where does that leave people who feel like the poppy seller ?

Maybe Paul could pop down from Yorkshire and tell him he's wrong ? Only half joking.
At the next election posts on online forums may not be enough to convince people they are wrong.

But this mess was not of Labour's making.

That's what I really don't understand. Why do people spend hours agonising over the minutiae of the latest utterances of Starmer, Watson and Corbyn looking for tiny inconsistencies when it really doesn't matter? Labour are united in calling on May to bring her proposals to Parliament. Why can't we just all support that and turn our attention to the Tories?

If people want an unambiguous remain party, the Lib Dems and the Greens are available. I'll be sad to see Labour voters turn that way, but so be it. Labour cannot IMO present itself right now as a hard Remain party. It would be electoral suicide. What would you say to Rebecca Riots about the current situation? Do you think she's planning to vote Labour next time?

Because

1. It is vital we stay in the single market.

2. If it were Labour policy to stay in the single market a majority in Parliament could be constructed to back it.

I care much more about Brexit than I do about Labour. I think Labour is stuffed, and will certainly lose the next two general elections. I left in September of last year. So, unlike some, I'm personally not interested in "my party right or wrong".

[RogerOThornhill]

Not everything is about Corbyn

That might be the funniest thing you've posted here given that Corbyn is your main conversation opener on nearly every occasion.

[SpinningHugo]

Not everything is about Corbyn

That might be the funniest thing you've posted here given that Corbyn is your main conversation opener on nearly every occasion.

Is it? I mentioned over the weekend that he has disappeared, and posted a link to his ridiculous claim of harassment when a reporter asked him a question, but this week I've posted links, and discussed, only Brexit I think. See today.

Corbyn doesn't matter very much, because Labour don't matter very much.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Labour's broad position on this is the only realistic one IMO (I realise that some disagree)

And one of the things that SH misses here is that on *this* issue, Corbyn is taking a similar line to that which any other Labour leader would.

(remember when the Maastricht treaty was going through the Commons in 1992-93?)

Lots of people are desperate for the Brexit focus to be on Labour, and the Tories to get away with proper scrutiny again (even though they are the actual government, who cares about trivia like that in our post-truth world?) Labour shouldn't indulge them, instead they should keep the pressure relentlessly on May and her regime.

Starmer is doing very well, I think.

[JonnyT1234]

Not everything is about Corbyn

That might be the funniest thing you've posted here given that Corbyn is your main conversation opener on nearly every occasion.

To be fair, it is sometimes about McDonnell instead.

[nickyinnorfolk]

There's some right cretins on the Tory back benches. Step forward Andrew Murrison and Karl McCartney.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/a ... 57a9a8e0ff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Womble44]

''2. However unacceptable we'll still vote for it.''

It did seem like that, I only heard a brief clip.

Over the last couple of weeks I've heard comments from people, in life not online, that are similar to concerns Willow, AngryAW, myself and others mention here.

An old Welsh gent selling poppies made the point that people like him are feeling they've been sold out. The couple who bought poppies before me were complaining about Brexit. He made specific criticism of what he saw as Labour letting people down over Brexit since the referendum vote. He had been a Labour member in the past. He told me his father had been a lifelong Labour man and had ''met Keir Hardy'' as if that was a symbol of his socialism. He despaired at the state of British politics and the effect Ukip have had. Let's just say he felt Labour's time was over and they are a spent force.

Corbyn and others may be playing a clever political game. If they aren't, where does that leave people who feel like the poppy seller ?

Maybe Paul could pop down from Yorkshire and tell him he's wrong ? Only half joking.
At the next election posts on online forums may not be enough to convince people they are wrong.

But this mess was not of Labour's making.

That's what I really don't understand. Why do people spend hours agonising over the minutiae of the latest utterances of Starmer, Watson and Corbyn looking for tiny inconsistencies when it really doesn't matter? Labour are united in calling on May to bring her proposals to Parliament. Why can't we just all support that and turn our attention to the Tories?

If people want an unambiguous remain party, the Lib Dems and the Greens are available. I'll be sad to see Labour voters turn that way, but so be it. Labour cannot IMO present itself right now as a hard Remain party. It would be electoral suicide. What would you say to Rebecca Riots about the current situation? Do you think she's planning to vote Labour next time?

Because

1. It is vital we stay in the single market.

2. If it were Labour policy to stay in the single market a majority in Parliament could be constructed to back it.

I care much more about Brexit than I do about Labour. I think Labour is stuffed, and will certainly lose the next two general elections. I left in September of last year. So, unlike some, I'm personally not interested in "my party right or wrong".

The problem is that the statement 'it is vital we stay in the single market' is not a statement of fact, but an opinion, albeit one with an overwhelming wealth of evidence behind it, and if you attempt to force it without convincing people that their opinion is wrong then it has the potential to damage Labour electorally and embolden the far right.

[Willow904]

Starmer wasn't putting across a tight message, partially because he was avoiding the Gotcha! of saying no we won't vote for A50. The pressure has to be on the Tories to say what their plans are. It's too easy to change the media narrative to Labour ignore the will of the people. Keep the powder dry. My main issue with the interview was the lack of referencing the Tories manifesto regarding the single market.

The government will have to reveal its hand at some point and it will a game changer, there's no doubt about that. I'm worried, however, that during this stasis the ground work for hard Brexit is being laid and the momentum will have become too great for a logical, forensic dissection of their position to cut through.

[StephenDolan]

Starmer wasn't putting across a tight message, partially because he was avoiding the Gotcha! of saying no we won't vote for A50. The pressure has to be on the Tories to say what their plans are. It's too easy to change the media narrative to Labour ignore the will of the people. Keep the powder dry. My main issue with the interview was the lack of referencing the Tories manifesto regarding the single market.

The government will have to reveal its hand at some point and it will a game changer, there's no doubt about that. I'm worried, however, that during this stasis the ground work for hard Brexit is being laid and the momentum will have become too great for a logical, forensic dissection of their position to cut through.

Agreed, which is why Labour have to stay on their collective message.

On an aside, I don't recall Cameron and Osborne being given the "yes but what would the Tories do" and "show your financial details" queries in the Brown years. Am I mistaken? It has been known.

[SpinningHugo]

Labour's broad position on this is the only realistic one IMO (I realise that some disagree)

And one of the things that SH misses here is that on *this* issue, Corbyn is taking a similar line to that which any other Labour leader would.

(remember when the Maastricht treaty was going through the Commons in 1992-93?)

Lots of people are desperate for the Brexit focus to be on Labour, and the Tories to get away with proper scrutiny again (even though they are the actual government, who cares about trivia like that in our post-truth world?) Labour shouldn't indulge them, instead they should keep the pressure relentlessly on May and her regime.

Starmer is doing very well, I think.

Ok, again, how does Labour's policy actually differ from that of the Tories? Labour's only disagreement with the Tories are trivial procedural ones.

I don't accept that either Blair or Brown would have adopted Labour's current position. The latter certainly wouldn't, as he knew some economics.

[StephenDolan]

Labour's broad position on this is the only realistic one IMO (I realise that some disagree)

And one of the things that SH misses here is that on *this* issue, Corbyn is taking a similar line to that which any other Labour leader would.

(remember when the Maastricht treaty was going through the Commons in 1992-93?)

Lots of people are desperate for the Brexit focus to be on Labour, and the Tories to get away with proper scrutiny again (even though they are the actual government, who cares about trivia like that in our post-truth world?) Labour shouldn't indulge them, instead they should keep the pressure relentlessly on May and her regime.

Starmer is doing very well, I think.

Ok, again, how does Labour's policy actually differ from that of the Tories? Labour's only disagreement with the Tories are trivial procedural ones.

I don't accept that either Blair or Brown would have adopted Labour's current position. The latter certainly wouldn't, as he knew some economics.

IMHO Labour's position is to be able to vote through the invocation of A50 that has been completely hollowed out. A useless victory for May that appeases none of the Tory voters or her MPs.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Labour's broad position on this is the only realistic one IMO (I realise that some disagree)

And one of the things that SH misses here is that on *this* issue, Corbyn is taking a similar line to that which any other Labour leader would.

(remember when the Maastricht treaty was going through the Commons in 1992-93?)

Lots of people are desperate for the Brexit focus to be on Labour, and the Tories to get away with proper scrutiny again (even though they are the actual government, who cares about trivia like that in our post-truth world?) Labour shouldn't indulge them, instead they should keep the pressure relentlessly on May and her regime.

Starmer is doing very well, I think.

Ok, again, how does Labour's policy actually differ from that of the Tories? Labour's only disagreement with the Tories are trivial procedural ones.

I don't accept that either Blair or Brown would have adopted Labour's current position. The latter certainly wouldn't, as he knew some economics.

It differs in mood and you know it. Labour is talking the language of soft Leave and soft Remain against hard Leave from the Tories and hard Remain from Libs and Greens.

It can't differ in much else because the Tories haven't laid out any plans to discuss.

Let's get on with it.

[Willow904]

But this mess was not of Labour's making.

That's what I really don't understand. Why do people spend hours agonising over the minutiae of the latest utterances of Starmer, Watson and Corbyn looking for tiny inconsistencies when it really doesn't matter? Labour are united in calling on May to bring her proposals to Parliament. Why can't we just all support that and turn our attention to the Tories?

If people want an unambiguous remain party, the Lib Dems and the Greens are available. I'll be sad to see Labour voters turn that way, but so be it. Labour cannot IMO present itself right now as a hard Remain party. It would be electoral suicide. What would you say to Rebecca Riots about the current situation? Do you think she's planning to vote Labour next time?

Because

1. It is vital we stay in the single market.

2. If it were Labour policy to stay in the single market a majority in Parliament could be constructed to back it.

I care much more about Brexit than I do about Labour. I think Labour is stuffed, and will certainly lose the next two general elections. I left in September of last year. So, unlike some, I'm personally not interested in "my party right or wrong".

The problem is that the statement 'it is vital we stay in the single market' is not a statement of fact, but an opinion, albeit one with an overwhelming wealth of evidence behind it, and if you attempt to force it without convincing people that their opinion is wrong then it has the potential to damage Labour electorally and embolden the far right.

The polls tell us, however, that more people in this country are of the opinion that we should stay in the single market than not. As such, the party that supports this position has a greater pool of support than a party supporting leaving the single market. Brexit doesn't mean hard Brexit, it means leaving the European Union. Ed Miliband has been good at pointing out no one has voted to leave the single market. We need a lot more of such interventions, from all quarters, not just Labour, to ensure a Brexit outside the European Union but inside the single market remains an option in the public mind - not just remains an option but is presented as the preferred option that fulfills the mandate of the referendum on the one hand whilst securing Britain's economic interests on the other. The Libdems were being attacked for their position of wanting to stay in the single market by John Humphries on R4 this morning as trying to subvert the outcome of the referendum. This is a fallacy, there was no indication during the referendum that "out" meant out of the single market also, but it is a fallacy that if oft repeated will start to feel like a fact. If the Libdems are left to fight for the single market alone and fail in the face of a hostile media and slick government spin machine, it won't just be the Libdems that are defeated but the possibility of staying in the single market with it.
The most important thing about this is not just that we remain in the single market but that we do so as a consensus. It's not enough to "win" in parliament, the arguments have to be made to win over the public as well. Putting off the fight will only make the task harder in the end and meanwhile those who already want to remain in the single market are feeling let down by both the Tories and Labour.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Starmer wasn't putting across a tight message, partially because he was avoiding the Gotcha! of saying no we won't vote for A50. The pressure has to be on the Tories to say what their plans are. It's too easy to change the media narrative to Labour ignore the will of the people. Keep the powder dry. My main issue with the interview was the lack of referencing the Tories manifesto regarding the single market.

The government will have to reveal its hand at some point and it will a game changer, there's no doubt about that. I'm worried, however, that during this stasis the ground work for hard Brexit is being laid and the momentum will have become too great for a logical, forensic dissection of their position to cut through.

Yes, that is a danger, but there is no "ideal" position.

It can be argued that the longer the government is put under scrutiny, the more difficult a "hard" Brexit will become as its drawbacks are made more and more obvious. There is little doubt that some in the government wanted to achieve a HB by stealth, using the cover of the royal prerogative to present it as a fait accompli.

That is very likely no longer a runner after last week. Even if the appeal is "won" the intermediate period can be used to make May's position weaker.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Because

1. It is vital we stay in the single market.

2. If it were Labour policy to stay in the single market a majority in Parliament could be constructed to back it.

I care much more about Brexit than I do about Labour. I think Labour is stuffed, and will certainly lose the next two general elections. I left in September of last year. So, unlike some, I'm personally not interested in "my party right or wrong".

The problem is that the statement 'it is vital we stay in the single market' is not a statement of fact, but an opinion, albeit one with an overwhelming wealth of evidence behind it, and if you attempt to force it without convincing people that their opinion is wrong then it has the potential to damage Labour electorally and embolden the far right.

The polls tell us, however, that more people in this country are of the opinion that we should stay in the single market than not. As such, the party that supports this position has a greater pool of support than a party supporting leaving the single market. Brexit doesn't mean hard Brexit, it means leaving the European Union. Ed Miliband has been good at pointing out no one has voted to leave the single market. We need a lot more of such interventions, from all quarters, not just Labour, to ensure a Brexit outside the European Union but inside the single market remains an option in the public mind - not just remains an option but is presented as the preferred option that fulfills the mandate of the referendum on the one hand whilst securing Britain's economic interests on the other. The Libdems were being attacked for their position of wanting to stay in the single market by John Humphries on R4 this morning as trying to subvert the outcome of the referendum. This is a fallacy, there was no indication during the referendum that "out" meant out of the single market also, but it is a fallacy that if oft repeated will start to feel like a fact. If the Libdems are left to fight for the single market alone and fail in the face of a hostile media and slick government spin machine, it won't just be the Libdems that are defeated but the possibility of staying in the single market with it.
The most important thing about this is not just that we remain in the single market but that we do so as a consensus. It's not enough to "win" in parliament, the arguments have to be made to win over the public as well. Putting off the fight will only make the task harder in the end and meanwhile those who already want to remain in the single market are feeling let down by both the Tories and Labour.

Well they shouldn't be feeling let down by Labour should they? Corbyn has said loud and clear that access to the Single Market is the most important thing.

[Womble44]

From Labour 's point of view though, it depends who the majority of people that have changed their mind and how important they view membership of the EU; a lot of people aren't really that fussed about the single market (which Is a shame).

[PaulfromYorkshire]

We will be pressing for full access to the European single market as part of the Brexit negotiations …

[nickyinnorfolk]

Another example of Theresa May being totally out of her depth:

The Bank of England has rightly told Theresa May she doesn’t know what she’s talking about on interest rates

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ban ... 00866.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[nickyinnorfolk]

From the Daily Mash:

BREXIT supporters have set up a network of ‘people’s courts’ where justice is based on popular opinion.

Anti-EU Britons’ dissatisfaction with the legal system has led to the creation of makeshift courts dealing with everything from witchcraft to disputes over borrowed garden tools.

Accountant and people’s judge Roy Hobbs said: “The court convenes in my living room, with the legal cases argued by our ‘barristers’ Sandra the local florist and Degsy, an unemployed decorator who’s seen A Few Good Men five times.

“Our biggest case so far has been the legality of Brexit. The court came to the unanimous decision that it is totally brilliant and anyone who disagrees deserves a toe up their arse.

“You can accuse anyone of anything. Last week we dealt with 48 cases of people being shortchanged at the local Sainsbury’s, a French spy and an old lady who put a curse on a horse than made it go lame.

“Punishments range from the stocks for not wearing a poppy to hanging for more serious crimes, such as men having long hair.

“Tomorrow I’ve got the case of a man who’s guilty of liking Nicola Sturgeon. He won’t be spouting his lies when he’s being hit in the forehead by turnips.”

[SpinningHugo]

The problem is that the statement 'it is vital we stay in the single market' is not a statement of fact, but an opinion, albeit one with an overwhelming wealth of evidence behind it, and if you attempt to force it without convincing people that their opinion is wrong then it has the potential to damage Labour electorally and embolden the far right.

The polls tell us, however, that more people in this country are of the opinion that we should stay in the single market than not. As such, the party that supports this position has a greater pool of support than a party supporting leaving the single market. Brexit doesn't mean hard Brexit, it means leaving the European Union. Ed Miliband has been good at pointing out no one has voted to leave the single market. We need a lot more of such interventions, from all quarters, not just Labour, to ensure a Brexit outside the European Union but inside the single market remains an option in the public mind - not just remains an option but is presented as the preferred option that fulfills the mandate of the referendum on the one hand whilst securing Britain's economic interests on the other. The Libdems were being attacked for their position of wanting to stay in the single market by John Humphries on R4 this morning as trying to subvert the outcome of the referendum. This is a fallacy, there was no indication during the referendum that "out" meant out of the single market also, but it is a fallacy that if oft repeated will start to feel like a fact. If the Libdems are left to fight for the single market alone and fail in the face of a hostile media and slick government spin machine, it won't just be the Libdems that are defeated but the possibility of staying in the single market with it.
The most important thing about this is not just that we remain in the single market but that we do so as a consensus. It's not enough to "win" in parliament, the arguments have to be made to win over the public as well. Putting off the fight will only make the task harder in the end and meanwhile those who already want to remain in the single market are feeling let down by both the Tories and Labour.

Well they shouldn't be feeling let down by Labour should they? Corbyn has said loud and clear that access to the Single Market is the most important thing.

ACCESS

The government's policy is best possible ACCESS.

North Korea has ACCESS.

I personally can guarantee now that after Brexit the UK will have ACCESS.

ACCESS is not the same thing at all as being a MEMBER of the single market.

[SpinningHugo]

It differs in mood and you know it. Labour is talking the language of soft Leave and soft Remain against hard Leave from the Tories and hard Remain from Libs and Greens.

It can't differ in much else because the Tories haven't laid out any plans to discuss.

Let's get on with it.

No. That is fundamentally and profoundly wrong.

The important questions are

1. Single market MEMBERSHIP

2, The Customs Union.

Labour's policy is the same as the Tories. "Chaotic Torry Brexit" is a soundbite not a policy.

[yahyah]

''2. However unacceptable we'll still vote for it.''

It did seem like that, I only heard a brief clip.

Over the last couple of weeks I've heard comments from people, in life not online, that are similar to concerns Willow, AngryAW, myself and others mention here.

An old Welsh gent selling poppies made the point that people like him are feeling they've been sold out. The couple who bought poppies before me were complaining about Brexit. He made specific criticism of what he saw as Labour letting people down over Brexit since the referendum vote. He had been a Labour member in the past. He told me his father had been a lifelong Labour man and had ''met Keir Hardy'' as if that was a symbol of his socialism. He despaired at the state of British politics and the effect Ukip have had. Let's just say he felt Labour's time was over and they are a spent force.

Corbyn and others may be playing a clever political game. If they aren't, where does that leave people who feel like the poppy seller ?

Maybe Paul could pop down from Yorkshire and tell him he's wrong ? Only half joking.
At the next election posts on online forums may not be enough to convince people they are wrong.

But this mess was not of Labour's making.

That's what I really don't understand. Why do people spend hours agonising over the minutiae of the latest utterances of Starmer, Watson and Corbyn looking for tiny inconsistencies when it really doesn't matter? Labour are united in calling on May to bring her proposals to Parliament. Why can't we just all support that and turn our attention to the Tories?

If people want an unambiguous remain party, the Lib Dems and the Greens are available. I'll be sad to see Labour voters turn that way, but so be it. Labour cannot IMO present itself right now as a hard Remain party. It would be electoral suicide. What would you say to Rebecca Riots about the current situation? Do you think she's planning to vote Labour next time?

Yes, we know the mess is one that the Tories made. Not sure anyone would dispute that.

Yes, Labour are right in pushing May to bring proposals to the House.
But...Labour seem to be saying that no matter how crap those proposals are we'll just have to put up with it.

And maybe RR could come back and tell us what she thinks of this unholy mess.
Did Mr RR believe, like people like Dreda Say Mitchell that they were voting for a left wing Brexit ?
How did they think that would miraculously occur when the Tories are in charge ?

Fine...Labour can act to keep the votes of those who put us into this mess.
They may lose a lot of others though.

[gilsey]

England’s schools are now experiencing the largest real terms cuts in funding in more than a generation.

In real terms, schools will lose huge amounts of money rising to £2.5 billion a year by 2020. 92% of schools will have their funding cut.

Enter your postcode below to see how schools in your neighbourhood will be affected.
http://www.schoolcuts.org.uk/#/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Willow904]

The problem is that the statement 'it is vital we stay in the single market' is not a statement of fact, but an opinion, albeit one with an overwhelming wealth of evidence behind it, and if you attempt to force it without convincing people that their opinion is wrong then it has the potential to damage Labour electorally and embolden the far right.

The polls tell us, however, that more people in this country are of the opinion that we should stay in the single market than not. As such, the party that supports this position has a greater pool of support than a party supporting leaving the single market. Brexit doesn't mean hard Brexit, it means leaving the European Union. Ed Miliband has been good at pointing out no one has voted to leave the single market. We need a lot more of such interventions, from all quarters, not just Labour, to ensure a Brexit outside the European Union but inside the single market remains an option in the public mind - not just remains an option but is presented as the preferred option that fulfills the mandate of the referendum on the one hand whilst securing Britain's economic interests on the other. The Libdems were being attacked for their position of wanting to stay in the single market by John Humphries on R4 this morning as trying to subvert the outcome of the referendum. This is a fallacy, there was no indication during the referendum that "out" meant out of the single market also, but it is a fallacy that if oft repeated will start to feel like a fact. If the Libdems are left to fight for the single market alone and fail in the face of a hostile media and slick government spin machine, it won't just be the Libdems that are defeated but the possibility of staying in the single market with it.
The most important thing about this is not just that we remain in the single market but that we do so as a consensus. It's not enough to "win" in parliament, the arguments have to be made to win over the public as well. Putting off the fight will only make the task harder in the end and meanwhile those who already want to remain in the single market are feeling let down by both the Tories and Labour.

Well they shouldn't be feeling let down by Labour should they? Corbyn has said loud and clear that access to the Single Market is the most important thing.

So has Theresa May - "maximum access" - remember? "Access" is being used to mean lots of different things. I don't know what Corbyn means by "access". If he wants to see the UK remain in the single market he needs to say "in" or "member of" to clearly communicate this as the Libdems and Greens have done. Until he does, it's very difficult to ignore his lifetime of opposing the EU and not come to the conclusion that he doesn't really want to stay in the single market and is happy to see the Tories take us out, dreaming of some kind of Lexit utopia when he wins the 2020 GE. Even if I could believe Corbyn could win in 2020, I just can't see past the short to medium term economic tsunami which will be the result of leaving the single market and will blight the prospects of a generation because the UK as a country will be so much poorer, something left wing politics would struggle to soften in any meaningful way for some considerable time, with chaos and upheaval always affecting the poorest and most vulnerable the worst.