Tuesday 8th November

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:07 pm

https://www.ft.com/content/c074c6de-a4f ... a99e2a4de6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK benefit reform at risk due to IT woes, accountants warn
Technology problems at HMRC are a ‘significant risk to the successful rollout of universal credit’

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales said it strongly believed there was “significant risk to the successful rollout of universal credit” — a single monthly payment that will replace six existing benefits — and the expected £12bn of savings.

It warns about HMRC’s “inaccurate processing” of “real-time information” — data about earnings that employers must submit to the tax authority every time they pay their workers. The RTI system, introduced in 2012, is designed to give the government an up-to-date picture of earnings to calculate tax credits and benefits.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:17 pm

Hello.

I realise the piece is like some sort of perfect alchemy of anti-clickbait, but here goes anyway....

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:18 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Hello.

I realise the piece is like some sort of perfect alchemy of anti-clickbait, but here goes anyway....

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Delingpole thinks remarkably highly of himself for someone with such low intelligence.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:20 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour MPs say that because being seen to tell voters "YOU ARE WRONG" is one of the biggest taboos in politics. And with reason - it rarely goes down well.

You're right of course. MPs telling voters they were wrong is problematic, I agree.

Can I imagine Ed Miliband, for example, telling people, you were wrong returning a Tory government in May 2015? No, I can't imagine it, I'd be rather shocked if he were to say it. Nonetheless, it's true. UK voters returning a Tory government in 2015 was wrong.

52% of the those voting voted to Leave
48% of those voting voted to Remain

That result wasn't decisive and I'd appreciate anyone in a position of power to allay the fears of those who'd voted to remain. People voted to curtail their own freedom of movement. I don't read too much about this in media. Those voting leave did realise that's what it meant, didn't they?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:23 pm

Apologies for my bad manners.

Good-afternoon, everyone.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:23 pm

So...ed select committee on grammar schools.

Experts - presented their evidence and came across very forcibly against the ideas in the green paper
Gibb - mostly waffled on and used stats selectively.
Suella Fernandes - asked one bizarre question which made some people wonder how she squares her obviously rabid pro-ghrammar stance with being CoG at Michaela which is a comp.

One interesting tweet amongst many from one of the academics giving evidence...

Becky Allen ‏@drbeckyallen 57m57 minutes ago

@mikercameron @tonyparkin he doesn't believe in selection. He hopes that by being a bad advocate it won't happen.

Hmm...so...No 10 pushing the policy, DfE giving half-hearted support and hoping it gets dropped?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:24 pm

Yahyah, I'm sorry I didn't answer your question yesterday about staying up to find out the result of the US Presidential Election. I'm not planning on it, no.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:25 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour MPs say that because being seen to tell voters "YOU ARE WRONG" is one of the biggest taboos in politics. And with reason - it rarely goes down well.

Agree, but TWOTP implies all of the people. 52/48 most certainly isn't that.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:26 pm

A genuine question...

If the European Union has a internal trading agreement called the 'Internal Market' (I believe(TM) it's only referred to as the 'Single Market' in Britain) which contains the member states of the European Union, how can a member state that leaves still be part of the Internal Market? It must surely wait until it has actually left the Union (in March 2019, according to May-hem and the Three Brexiteers) before it start negotiations to have 'access' to the European Union Internal Market...surely without membership of the Union there can be no 'membership' of the Internal Market?

As I say, genuine question - and as someone (ex-Belgian PM?) said - the 4 principles are sacrosant - free movement of goods, services, trade and people...there can be no option of 1 or 2 or 3 of these.

I must admit to not knowing a great deal about EFTA for example...but they seem to agree the 4 principles as well...

...and don't call me Mustard Mitts...

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:29 pm

A guy off the street.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/world ... erson-room" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:31 pm

Willow904 wrote:It says something about American culture, I think, that a black man would become president before a woman.

The attacks on Hillary Clinton, in some ways, have been quite remarkable. When you look at the quality and probity of some previous occupants of the Oval Office, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that Hillary is being held to some different, unique standard. When you assess her in isolation, there are plenty of criticisms that could be made of course, but when put alongside other candidates it's hard to understand why she is quite so reviled. You can only really grasp how this has happened by going back to Bill Clinton's presidential campaign and looking back at how, from the very beginning, Hillary Clinton has been disproportionately attacked and misrepresented by American media. They've always had it in for her. She refused to play the traditional First Lady little wife role and they've never forgiven her.

The result of today's US election is going to be quite significant for America, of which the election of a intellectually challenged celebrity Republican alpha male would be the least remarkable outcome imo. Which is why I fear a Trump win remains a distinct possibility, whatever the polls say.

I won't accept Trump winning. I'd spend the rest of my life pretending it didn't happen.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:34 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Affordable homes in Chelsea Sutton estate may be saved

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:39 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:A guy off the street.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/world ... erson-room" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Took you some time today to get a bit of Corbyn-bashing in...that's the 'guy off the street' who has served his constituents as a public servant for over 30 years...

David Cameron 'thumped' Ed in the election?...how are the investigations into Tory election fraud going? How did the SNP get on after receiving the backing of the press? (admittedly, of course, the 'press' have no bearing on public discourse and narrative...'cos you said so) How did the Lib-Dems do after riding roughshod over the views of their voters and getting into bed with the Clouncy Funt (remember - I believed them in 2010)

ttfn

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:42 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour MPs say that because being seen to tell voters "YOU ARE WRONG" is one of the biggest taboos in politics. And with reason - it rarely goes down well.
Agree, but TWOTP implies all of the people. 52/48 most certainly isn't that.

True.

Though I have yet to note any Labour person using the formulation "the OVERWHELMING will of the people" - some Tories have

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:47 pm

Fwiw, the 'will of the people' can and will change. But until there is clear evidence that it has, it's not necessarily as stupid as it sounds to keep adhering to it when you know that the moment you don't, you will painted by our glorious free press as the most anti-British of anti-British people. And the readers of that press are so terminally, fucking stupid, they'll believe it.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:55 pm

Now in charge of UK spies, gaffe-prone Boris Johnson surveys their domain - Reuters
https://apple.news/ArU1YJG6PR3WLQmzvt2-zow" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Visualise while reading this Maria Eagle on hearing the news that Johnson had just been made foreign secretary. It's the only way to remain sane.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:59 pm

Almost a quarter of Welsh population live in poverty, report finds - the guardian
https://apple.news/Ai-YqJV0hTZSPJvK5EZ9rkg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Almost a quarter of people in Wales are struggling to make ends meet and poverty is costing the country £3.6bn a year – a fifth of the Welsh government’s annual budget, a report has revealed.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:03 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Fwiw, the 'will of the people' can and will change. But until there is clear evidence that it has, it's not necessarily as stupid as it sounds to keep adhering to it when you know that the moment you don't, you will painted by our glorious free press as the most anti-British of anti-British people. And the readers of that press are so terminally, fucking stupid, they'll believe it.

Furthermore, once it does change, you can still follow it...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:05 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Almost a quarter of Welsh population live in poverty, report finds - the guardian
https://apple.news/Ai-YqJV0hTZSPJvK5EZ9rkg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Almost a quarter of people in Wales are struggling to make ends meet and poverty is costing the country £3.6bn a year – a fifth of the Welsh government’s annual budget, a report has revealed.

Millions of pounds in EU money has been ploughed into the valleys over the years. The report acknowledges this, saying: “An immediate priority for Wales is to secure the continuity of funding under current EU structural fund programmes as part of the negotiations about UK withdrawal from the EU. In the longer term, the UK government should earmark a sum equivalent to Wales’s structural fund receipts – approximately £400m a year in 2014 – to rebalance the Welsh economy and support inclusive growth and employment.”

Like fuck the Tories are going to give Wales the same money they've been receiving from the EU. You'd have to be truly, bloody stupid to even think that was remotely likely.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:07 pm

Scotland To Intervene In UK Government Brexit Appeal - The Huffington Post - UK
https://apple.news/AWnl7VJWiRl-4xy8nXSw0gw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced on Tuesday that Scotland’s top law officer is to apply to the court to intervene in the case, due to be heard next month.

Enemy of the (English) people.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:09 pm

Hungary migrant ban narrowly fails in parliamentary vote - the guardian
https://apple.news/A583IbnDaQiCw-1EkPba-gw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vote on proposal to bar migrants from being resettled in the country falls just short of two-thirds majority needed

Not the will of the people. Thankfully.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:13 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Almost a quarter of Welsh population live in poverty, report finds - the guardian
https://apple.news/Ai-YqJV0hTZSPJvK5EZ9rkg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Almost a quarter of people in Wales are struggling to make ends meet and poverty is costing the country £3.6bn a year – a fifth of the Welsh government’s annual budget, a report has revealed.

Millions of pounds in EU money has been ploughed into the valleys over the years. The report acknowledges this, saying: “An immediate priority for Wales is to secure the continuity of funding under current EU structural fund programmes as part of the negotiations about UK withdrawal from the EU. In the longer term, the UK government should earmark a sum equivalent to Wales’s structural fund receipts – approximately £400m a year in 2014 – to rebalance the Welsh economy and support inclusive growth and employment.”
Like fuck the Tories are going to give Wales the same money they've been receiving from the EU. You'd have to be truly, bloody stupid to even think that was remotely likely.

The next thing they will be promoting will be a narrative where richer regions of the UK should resent contributing to poorer ones, so that more of the tax can be kept where it is collected. Much like the way the Eurozone has treated Greece.

This feeling already exists, so they just need to keep pushing it.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:17 pm

Michael Gove leaps to defence of 'brilliant' Brexit case judges: 'Respect their decision' - The Independent
https://apple.news/AQpo5lMk4TH6Q1sUCxKnq4Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Warning: contains slimy Gove.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:20 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... s-to-voter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fox News wrongly links Republican anti-Trump protester to voter fraud
Exclusive: Report implicated Austyn Crites in scam involving his ‘dead’ grandmother but Guardian can reveal she is alive and well

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:22 pm

Grammar school is blighting my much better comprehensive - the guardian
https://apple.news/ALEB7trpgSsysdY7buk4xAg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So what’s your bog-standard highperforming comprehensive situated next to a grammar school to do? Get even better? That’s just throwing good money after bad. We could call ourselves a grammar school and not actually be one; I don’t think there’s a law to stop us and I’m sure people wouldn’t notice.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:22 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Hungary migrant ban narrowly fails in parliamentary vote - the guardian
https://apple.news/A583IbnDaQiCw-1EkPba-gw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vote on proposal to bar migrants from being resettled in the country falls just short of two-thirds majority needed
Not the will of the people. Thankfully.

Hungarians clearly a bit smarter than the Brits - having a threshold and everything.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:23 pm

Is what Bill Clinton said that bad or lacking any element of reality ? It was his opinion, even if some of it was rather colourfully expressed ?

I didn't have a vote in the 2010 Labour leadership election, but I subsequently joined the party because of Ed Miliband.
But in my heart I do wonder what might have happened if David Miliband had led Labour into the 2010 election. We may have had a hung Parliament result going in Labour's favour rather than the Tories or even a slim majority. The awful last six years may have been very different. So Clinton's views aren't exactly controversial are they ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:29 pm

Some reports of very long lines to vote in the US.

Nail biting...smells like Brexit all over again.
All those 'don't usually vote because all politicians are the same'' are hardly likely to go for Clinton.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:33 pm

And re: ''maddest person in the room'' it has been pointed out that in the States that mad is most often used to mean angry.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:35 pm

Depends who is in those lines, in many cases it is blacks/Hispanics - often actually queueing because local GOP administrations have tried to make it as difficult as possible for them to vote.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:38 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour MPs say that because being seen to tell voters "YOU ARE WRONG" is one of the biggest taboos in politics. And with reason - it rarely goes down well.

If that's the logic, then I don't see the problem with telling the majority of voters who think we should stay in the single market "YOU ARE RIGHT".

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:46 pm

And weren't we promised the Labour party would be ''honest and straight talking'' ?

There were taboos about speaking about being gay. People were brave and spoke out and the taboo has lost its power.
Taboos never lose their power if people shrink back from challenging them.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 1:46 pm

Schools Week
‏@SchoolsWeek

Tutor-proof 11-plus test is ‘Holy Grail’, claims minister http://bit.ly/2fWZ7su" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's always a problem about using that as an analogy...but I guess Gibb can't see it.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:05 pm

yahyah wrote:Is what Bill Clinton said that bad or lacking any element of reality ? It was his opinion, even if some of it was rather colourfully expressed ?

I didn't have a vote in the 2010 Labour leadership election, but I subsequently joined the party because of Ed Miliband.
But in my heart I do wonder what might have happened if David Miliband had led Labour into the 2010 election. We may have had a hung Parliament result going in Labour's favour rather than the Tories or even a slim majority. The awful last six years may have been very different. So Clinton's views aren't exactly controversial are they ?

Press would have ripped into him over rendition and how much he knew about it and highlighted his vote for war. Two things they couldn't use against Ed. Would he have handled things better over all? I don't know but I think he would have used the last Labour record (on things like child poverty reduction) to much better effect than Ed did.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:11 pm

Piers Corbyn
‏@Piers_Corbyn Piers Corbyn Retweeted Mickey Kaus
WhoeverUvote #TRUMP'S RIGHT THAT #ManMade #CO2 #ClimateChange is a #GR8 CON LIKE #Hilary+#ClintonFoundation FACTS http://www.WeatherAction.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; RT

Piers Corbyn ‏@Piers_Corbyn 6h6 hours ago
Piers Corbyn Retweeted Immigrants☆4☆Trump
#Gr8 QUESTION! WHY WOULD any SelfRespecting Latino Vote 2continue 2live with InnerCity degredation #CorruptClintons keep in "GOOD" #USA? RT

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:18 pm

No, Bill Clinton wasn't calling Jeremy Corbyn "crazy"
And what he was really saying really matters.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/el ... rbyn-crazy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:20 pm

Truss in trouble

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... cle-50-row" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Angry Conservative MPs confronted the justice secretary, Liz Truss, at a private meeting on Monday night, voicing concerns over her handling of the criticism of high court judges in the article 50 court case.

Tory MPs at the meeting, many with backgrounds as senior lawyers, are understood to have told the lord chancellor there was “huge concern” among colleagues at the slowness of her response to the attacks on Lord Thomas, the lord chief justice, the master of the rolls Sir Terence Etherton and Lord Justice Sales in newspapers and by politicians.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:22 pm

If you think about it we were all asleep at the wheel. V few MPs voted against holding the referendum, and none of us took care to make sure that there was a sensible threshold or questions (I recall much more coverage of the Scottish questions for example).

We, collectively, should never have let it happen. Democracy can only work when the people being represented are sufficiently engaged.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:25 pm

Womble44 wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Almost a quarter of Welsh population live in poverty, report finds - the guardian
https://apple.news/Ai-YqJV0hTZSPJvK5EZ9rkg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Millions of pounds in EU money has been ploughed into the valleys over the years. The report acknowledges this, saying: “An immediate priority for Wales is to secure the continuity of funding under current EU structural fund programmes as part of the negotiations about UK withdrawal from the EU. In the longer term, the UK government should earmark a sum equivalent to Wales’s structural fund receipts – approximately £400m a year in 2014 – to rebalance the Welsh economy and support inclusive growth and employment.”
Like fuck the Tories are going to give Wales the same money they've been receiving from the EU. You'd have to be truly, bloody stupid to even think that was remotely likely.
The next thing they will be promoting will be a narrative where richer regions of the UK should resent contributing to poorer ones, so that more of the tax can be kept where it is collected. Much like the way the Eurozone has treated Greece.

This feeling already exists, so they just need to keep pushing it.

It already exists. The changes to business rates and what councils can keep.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:28 pm

yahyah wrote:Is what Bill Clinton said that bad or lacking any element of reality ? It was his opinion, even if some of it was rather colourfully expressed ?

I didn't have a vote in the 2010 Labour leadership election, but I subsequently joined the party because of Ed Miliband.
But in my heart I do wonder what might have happened if David Miliband had led Labour into the 2010 election. We may have had a hung Parliament result going in Labour's favour rather than the Tories or even a slim majority. The awful last six years may have been very different. So Clinton's views aren't exactly controversial are they ?

Mad (American) = Angry (English)

So no, what he said wasn't especially controversial. What follows? The typical twisting from the usual suspects in the world of political journalism.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:30 pm

Damian Green dismisses 'offensive' UN report on UK disability rights
Minister says findings are outdated but activists welcome UN inquiry’s verdict that austerity policies violated rights

The work and pensions secretary, Damian Green, has dismissed a critical UN report that concluded that the UK government’s austerity policies “systematically violated” the rights of disabled people.

Green said the report was “patronising and offensive” and presented an outdated view of disability in the UK. He said Britain was “a world leader in disability rights and equality”.

But disability activists and charities welcomed the report, saying it accurately highlighted the real economic and social pressures faced by disabled people after years of harsh spending cuts to social security and social care.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ity-rights" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:31 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 04356.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Russia says relationship with US after presidential election will depend on whether Washington is 'willing'

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:38 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/new ... 04581.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'Hard' Brexit could spell disaster for UK tourism, warns expert
Experts warn visitor numbers could drop dramatically

wotevoh'

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:48 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Damian Green dismisses 'offensive' UN report on UK disability rights
Minister says findings are outdated but activists welcome UN inquiry’s verdict that austerity policies violated rights

The work and pensions secretary, Damian Green, has dismissed a critical UN report that concluded that the UK government’s austerity policies “systematically violated” the rights of disabled people.

Green said the report was “patronising and offensive” and presented an outdated view of disability in the UK. He said Britain was “a world leader in disability rights and equality”.

But disability activists and charities welcomed the report, saying it accurately highlighted the real economic and social pressures faced by disabled people after years of harsh spending cuts to social security and social care.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ity-rights" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Damian Green advances up the Tory Chutzpah League Table.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:52 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/new ... 04581.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'Hard' Brexit could spell disaster for UK tourism, warns expert
Experts warn visitor numbers could drop dramatically
wotevoh'

Short term, tourism looks like a beneficiary, with exchange rates as they are!

Post by **adam** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 2:54 pm

538 is updating its forecast through the day and it's moving slowly by surely in Clinton's direction so far.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 3:06 pm

As someone wanting the UK to remain in the EU, I would appreciate it if Labour were less circumspect.
I'm frightened. I'm not having a go at Labour, I'm not blaming Labour for Tory disaster. I know full well it's
Tory-authored. Leaving the EU is a great big horrifying step. Regular people all over the country and those
living in other countries face fundamental changes as a result of 'Brexit'. My fear isn't irrational.

Hugh Muir wrote an article in the Guardian I like.

Those MPs who fear Brexit should refuse to vote for it
It’s not undemocratic. If those who represent us think article 50 will lead Britain to disaster they should stick to their principles and oppose it

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... article-50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 3:10 pm

Meanwhile, in other "sensible moderate rational centrism" news - in Spain the PSOE have dropped to third in the polls after their decision to enable the right to form a government there (which followed, of course, a leadership coup by sensible/moderate/rational/centrist "grandees") Good chance they could be in fourth soon.

Well done, "electability" triumphs again!

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 3:35 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour MPs say that because being seen to tell voters "YOU ARE WRONG" is one of the biggest taboos in politics. And with reason - it rarely goes down well.
If that's the logic, then I don't see the problem with telling the majority of voters who think we should stay in the single market "YOU ARE RIGHT".

If you convince them first, you don't need to tell anyone to do anything. I would say the debate over article 50 would be a time to do it, but I don't expect the press to do anything other than vilify any politicians that speak in favour of the EU, so I don't see much hope there.

What would have really helped was if matters in the EU parliament were reported at all. The only time we see anything from there is when Farage turns up to insult everyone like a pissed uncle at a wedding. The coverage of the European elections in particular is always dire, no focus on the groupings, or which U.K. Parties have influence.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 3:49 pm

William Hague has urged Theresa May to start planning for a general election next year – or risk repeating Margaret Thatcher’s fatal blunder over the poll tax.

The former Foreign Secretary said the Prime Minister badly needed a ‘Plan B’ if, as expected, the Supreme Court confirms she cannot bypass Parliament and trigger Article 50 alone.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 04926.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;