Tuesday 8th November

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 6:12 am

Morning all

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 6:12 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... les-rights" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
UK austerity policies 'amount to violations of disabled people's rights'
UN says measures aimed at reducing public spending since 2010 have affected disabled people disproportionately

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 6:21 am

The complaint against Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns was submitted by academic experts in electoral law, who suggested “corrupt campaigning practices” were used by campaigners.

The group, led by Professor Bob Watt of the University of Buckingham, alleges that the Leave campaign made “assertions of fact that were knowingly misleading”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 03161.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 6:26 am

The Government is steering us off a cliff with Brexit – but that’s fine, because it’s ‘the will of the people’
Labour, too, has no problem with this view of 'the will of the British people'. Tom Watson loves the phrase. So does Hilary Benn. When the opposition party’s safest seats are the most Brexity in the country, don’t imagine anything that looks like actual opposition to last for very long
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 03186.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see I'm not alone

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 6:46 am

Ladies and gentlemen, the candidate at 30% chance of becoming president.

https://storify.com/adam_steinert/kurt- ... p-investig" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 7:07 am

Britain, in all likelihood, will leave the European Union in March 2019. But if the Prime Minister wants this decision to be representative of the will of the people, it can only be so if those who are convinced of its monumental folly are louder, not quieter, than ever before. That 51.9 per cent of voters have propriety over the will of the people to the extent that the rest should be silenced, denigrated or generally ignored is only the latest bit of baloney, and don’t think for a moment that you have to swallow it.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 7:27 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ref ... 02116.html
I didn’t disagree, although in my contribution I argued that Cameron was pushed into the referendum by wider forces that he could hardly have resisted (an argument supported by Oliver Letwin, Cameron’s Cabinet colleague, yesterday). As I have written for The Independent, if he hadn’t promised the referendum Ed Miliband might well be prime minister now.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 7:35 am

Where to begin?

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JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 7:41 am

If only people with at least 4 grandparents...

Intrigued to know how you can have more.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 7:45 am

Is this like when your sister is your mother or your brother your father, or something? I can't seem to get my head around the maths because I'm struggling to think like a far right Republican...

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 7:56 am

One for Roger

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... hools-plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Surrey headteachers express 'vehement opposition' to grammar schools plan
All 64 secondary heads have written to prime minister and education secretary attacking ‘nostalgic and unrealistic’ proposal to expand selective education

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:09 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
The Government is steering us off a cliff with Brexit – but that’s fine, because it’s ‘the will of the people’
Labour, too, has no problem with this view of 'the will of the British people'. Tom Watson loves the phrase. So does Hilary Benn. When the opposition party’s safest seats are the most Brexity in the country, don’t imagine anything that looks like actual opposition to last for very long
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 03186.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I see I'm not alone

You are not alone. There are a lot of us. But our 'will' is not important, we obviously don't count as British people. We are supposed to keep it zipped so Labour don't alienate Brexit and Lexit voters.

If there is pressure for a referendum or Parliamentary vote on bringing back hanging and the right wing press whip up majority support would Labour just accept the 'will of the people' ?

If the ''will of the people'' in Labour seats was electoral support for state execution would Labour not oppose it ? Would Labour MPs just sit on the Opposition benches, or appear in the media, quibbling about which method of execution to use, or moaning about the timetable to introducing it but not daring to say ''we will vote this down ?

Yes, that's a hypothetical question, but maybe not that far fetched.
In the last three months I've had surveys for YouGov & Opinium that included questions on bringing back capital punishment and, just the other week, whether I would agree with judge only/no jury trials if that saved money. When you complete the polls you aren't told who is paying for the information to be gathered, but questions like that sound like fodder for Farage or the Tory right.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:11 am

Morning

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/08/polit ... ults-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hillary Clinton wins Dixville Notch midnight vote

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:14 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Is this like when your sister is your mother or your brother your father, or something? I can't seem to get my head around the maths because I'm struggling to think like a far right Republican...

I think you'll find that's Nottingham Johnny.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:16 am

Trussell Trust to deliver more emergency food parcels than ever before - the guardian
https://apple.news/A_e_EpOVBSjKTT57XlDgZSg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The trust’s latest food bank figures came as charity campaigners revealed huge variations in the extent of child poverty across the UK. The End Child Poverty coalition said that in some areas almost half of children lived in poverty, compared to one in 10 in others. The national rate is 29%.

Broken Britain? Still broken.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:17 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:One for Roger
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... hools-plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Surrey headteachers express 'vehement opposition' to grammar schools plan
All 64 secondary heads have written to prime minister and education secretary attacking ‘nostalgic and unrealistic’ proposal to expand selective education

Yes but "It's not Surrey that is the problem!" or something like that.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:18 am

Incidentally, the edu select committee on grammar schools moved to today 9.45am (usually Wednesday).

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde ... 7e4728e5a0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see that Gibb has help on this one from his stattos...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:21 am

The Department for Work and Pensions played down the link drawn by Trussell between benefit delays and food bank use. A spokesman said: “Reasons for food bank use are complex, so it’s misleading to link them to any one issue, and the vast majority of benefits are processed on time.”

Vs.

Last month an Oxford University study found there was a robust link between increases in the number of benefit sanctions handed out and rising numbers of adults receiving food parcels.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:24 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:Where to begin?

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My vote wouldn't count here then. All my grandparents were Italian.
But Farage would probably give me dispensation as my grandfather was a supporter of Mussolini and a paid up member of the Italian Fascist diaspora.

My mum and her siblings were sent to a boarding school in Surrey before the war.
It was run under the aegis of Mussolini's government.
I don't think people realise Fascist schools existed in Britain and I have been trying to find out more about it. It was creepy to see a photograph of my mother as a child wearing a young fascist uniform.
Maybe that's why I worry about what's happening here and in the US. People get taken in. They believe the myths.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:26 am

I don't think people realise Fascist schools existed in Britain

Elton and Harrow are still open, I believe.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:26 am

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2016/ ... ocial-care" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publicatio ... ement-2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The King’s Fund, Nuffield Trust and The Health Foundation are urging the government to address the critical state of social care in its forthcoming Autumn Statement

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:27 am

Trump couldn't vote for himself.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:27 am

On good form as usual Jonny

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:34 am

Fiona Millar on good form about superheads.

Saddle your steed, Sir Greg Martin, overpaid superhead, and gallop out of our schools

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ols-durand

This bit typifies all that was wrong about Adonis.

In his book Education, Education, Education, Labour’s academy architect Lord Adonis explains why he resisted calls to put a tougher legal framework around his favoured schools: “In my experience charisma, persuasion and money, not legislation and regulation, are the great drivers of reform”, he said.

One of those 'blue sky thinkers' who hasn't actually got a clue about what might happen if things go wrong or a policy is taken to extremes.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:48 am

yahyah wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
The Government is steering us off a cliff with Brexit – but that’s fine, because it’s ‘the will of the people’
Labour, too, has no problem with this view of 'the will of the British people'. Tom Watson loves the phrase. So does Hilary Benn. When the opposition party’s safest seats are the most Brexity in the country, don’t imagine anything that looks like actual opposition to last for very long
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 03186.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I see I'm not alone
You are not alone. There are a lot of us. But our 'will' is not important, we obviously don't count as British people. We are supposed to keep it zipped so Labour don't alienate Brexit and Lexit voters.

If there is pressure for a referendum or Parliamentary vote on bringing back hanging and the right wing press whip up majority support would Labour just accept the 'will of the people' ?

If the ''will of the people'' in Labour seats was electoral support for state execution would Labour not oppose it ? Would Labour MPs just sit on the Opposition benches, or appear in the media, quibbling about which method of execution to use, or moaning about the timetable to introducing it but not daring to say ''we will vote this down ?

Yes, that's a hypothetical question, but maybe not that far fetched.
In the last three months I've had surveys for YouGov & Opinium that included questions on bringing back capital punishment and, just the other week, whether I would agree with judge only/no jury trials if that saved money. When you complete the polls you aren't told who is paying for the information to be gathered, but questions like that sound like fodder for Farage or the Tory right.

I would completely agree with this except why is it about Labour? It's the Tories who are in power.

Labour's job is to oppose the government. It is trying its best to do so. The first step is to get this ludicrous legislation into the House for debate and they are trying hard to achieve that.

One step at a time.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 8:56 am

Paul...it is about Labour because they are supposed to be the Opposition.
It is about Labour because I'm a member of the Labour party not the Conservative party.

Strewth. I'm beginning to understand what makes people turn to those tea party/charlatan led parties.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 9:07 am

Am bookmarking this for a read later.

Hugh Muir asks MPs to take a principled stand and not cede to populists

''It's not undemocratic. If those who represent us think Brexit will lead to disaster they should stick to their principles and oppose it''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... article-50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 9:09 am

Someone far cleverer than I please post this correctly!

Made me laugh, only want it to be correct now.

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yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 9:11 am

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 9:13 am

@ LetsSkip Is that ok ?

Thanks for the New York Times link yesterday, and for telling us it has free access at the moment.
It looks a good paper, am thinking it might be worth the cost of a basic subscription.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 9:39 am

yahyah wrote:@ LetsSkip Is that ok ?

Thanks for the New York Times link yesterday, and for telling us it has free access at the moment.
It looks a good paper, am thinking it might be worth the cost of a basic subscription.

That's great, thank you!

NYT is a great read, recommend Washington Post too, we may laugh at America at times, not now though, too much at stake, but can't deny their newspapers, most at least could teach ours a thing or two when it comes to writing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 9:50 am

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... iving.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The benefit cap: more media driving policy
Mainly Macro

The benefit cap is also an example of where an opposition tactic of ‘accepting in principle’ but tinkering at the edges just becomes failed appeasement

Eg.you've accepted the multitude of lies that are used to justify it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 9:53 am

It says something about American culture, I think, that a black man would become president before a woman.

The attacks on Hillary Clinton, in some ways, have been quite remarkable. When you look at the quality and probity of some previous occupants of the Oval Office, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that Hillary is being held to some different, unique standard. When you assess her in isolation, there are plenty of criticisms that could be made of course, but when put alongside other candidates it's hard to understand why she is quite so reviled. You can only really grasp how this has happened by going back to Bill Clinton's presidential campaign and looking back at how, from the very beginning, Hillary Clinton has been disproportionately attacked and misrepresented by American media. They've always had it in for her. She refused to play the traditional First Lady little wife role and they've never forgiven her.

The result of today's US election is going to be quite significant for America, of which the election of a intellectually challenged celebrity Republican alpha male would be the least remarkable outcome imo. Which is why I fear a Trump win remains a distinct possibility, whatever the polls say.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 9:57 am

For fast info without having to search for it, the Graun has developed an election tracker for tonight's results as they come in

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... lts-mobile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 10:03 am

Willow904 wrote:It says something about American culture, I think, that a black man would become president before a woman.

The attacks on Hillary Clinton, in some ways, have been quite remarkable. When you look at the quality and probity of some previous occupants of the Oval Office, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that Hillary is being held to some different, unique standard. When you assess her in isolation, there are plenty of criticisms that could be made of course, but when put alongside other candidates it's hard to understand why she is quite so reviled. You can only really grasp how this has happened by going back to Bill Clinton's presidential campaign and looking back at how, from the very beginning, Hillary Clinton has been disproportionately attacked and misrepresented by American media. They've always had it in for her. She refused to play the traditional First Lady little wife role and they've never forgiven her.

The result of today's US election is going to be quite significant for America, of which the election of a intellectually challenged celebrity Republican alpha male would be the least remarkable outcome imo. Which is why I fear a Trump win remains a distinct possibility, whatever the polls say.

I agree, also Trump has no record in political office so he doesn't have controversial policies that he's voted through that can be held against him. At the moment he can say whatever his base wants to hear.

martinson · Post by **martinson** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 10:14 am

Good morning.
Just to say beware the shy trumper.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 10:16 am

that's just naughty

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 10:19 am

Morfterbubble afterall...

Not sure if this has been mentioned...(Canary again, so usual apologies to those who don't like it)....

The disgraceful truth about John Lewis that the mainstream media is ignoring

Second-class citizens
John Lewis outsources the contract for cleaning to Compass Group. The company pays over 3,000 of them a mere £7.35 an hour. John Lewis’ regular staff get £8.20. The cleaners get £7.35 even if they work in London, where the recommended Living Wage is £9.75. And they have no access to the company’s famous ‘partnership’ model nor the annual bonus. UVW claims that:

Every year in store the annual bonus is publicly announced. This means the cleaners are forced to watch everyone celebrate and then sweep up the confetti and mop up the spilt champagne as a cruel reminder of their second class status within John Lewis.

The retailer’s profits for the six months to July 2016 were £81.9m, a fall of over 14%. But John Lewis has still managed to increase the pay of its workers by around £33m. At the same time, the cleaners only saw a pay increase of 6p per hour. UVW have been campaigning for the cleaners to receive “parity of pay and terms and conditions of employment with in-house staff”. It demanded that John Lewis respond to what it called “reasonable demands” by 1 November.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/11/07/the- ... ng-images/

Admittedly, it's a bit odd to report that 'demands must be met by 1st November' in a piece published on the 7th....but the general point still stands that a company renowned for its' care of all employees (partners) has been taken over and transformed by the vulture capitalists.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 10:22 am

...and who's that?...the 'outsourced cleaning provider' for John Lewis, I mean...Compass Group you say?...weren't they implicated in some other scandal....wasn't there a joke?...oh, yes...

What cheese would you use to hide a horse?

Mascarpone...with extra helpings on the Tesco Lasagne

...I'll get my coat...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 10:25 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the Lords were debating this on any other day, children’s rights would be safer
Martha Spurrier

‘A little-noticed amendment to the children and social work bill will allow councils to opt out of their child protection obligations under almost every law covering children’s social care since 1933

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 10:41 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Trussell Trust to deliver more emergency food parcels than ever before - the guardian
https://apple.news/A_e_EpOVBSjKTT57XlDgZSg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The trust’s latest food bank figures came as charity campaigners revealed huge variations in the extent of child poverty across the UK. The End Child Poverty coalition said that in some areas almost half of children lived in poverty, compared to one in 10 in others. The national rate is 29%.
Broken Britain? Still broken.

...not sure if it's been linked (from September - not sure I've seen it before either)....but it seems the global food scam continues apace...

Bayer's $66bn takeover bid of Monsanto called a 'marriage made in hell'

Campaigners promised further protests, which have already been held around the world since Bayer made its first approach for Monsanto in May.

They are concerned that the deal could lead to Monsanto, which has been described as “the most evil company in the world” for its role in developing deadly herbicide Agent Orange in the 1960s and more recently its role at the forefront of genetically engineered crops, could introduce GMO seeds in Europe.
Hugh Grant, Monsanto’s Scottish chief executive, hit out at environmentalists saying their concern about GM crops “drives me a little bit nuts” and said they should be more worried about how to feed a fast-growing global population while using less water as global temperatures rise.
"You think about two billion new citizens, you think about a warming planet. You think about water. These are appropriate conversations,” he said in an interview with CNN on Wednesday. “The thing that drives me a little bit nuts. The frustrating piece is this is such a polarized debate. And I don’t think it should be because we’re going to need all these kinds of agriculture.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... llion-deal

Do fracking what now? We get to discuss what that fracker decides are 'appropriate conversations'? 'Polarised debate'? Why the fracking frack would that be, I wonder? Any evidence of Monsanto using money and influence to silence critics? (rhetorical, natch) Well he can fracking well frack the frack off until he accepts that...

According to a recent report by UNEP and the World Resources Institute (WRI), about one-third of all food produced worldwide, worth around US$1 trillion, gets lost or wasted in food production and consumption systems.

http://www.worldfooddayusa.org/food_waste_the_facts

...and lest we forget, of course, when the food (whats left of it) finally gets to the supermarket shelf and is then donated to foodbanks, the supermarket retains full profit on the goods...so starvation and oppression are good business for someone....the politicians must be cacking it in case anyone finds out...oh no - that's right....Brexit is all there is...the biggest issue of our age....giving the green light to politicians to talk and posture and posture and talk for at least 10 years and maybe 20 if they can string it out that long...the Clouncy Funt played an absolute blinder

Children received 1.7MILLION emergency meals from food banks in six months

Britain's biggest food bank operator, the Trussell Trust , handed out more than half a million parcels between April and September, according to its latest half-yearly report.
A total of 188,584 went to kids – and each aid package contains three meals for three days.
That means youngsters were fed with 1,679,256 meals from the charity's network of more than 420 UK food banks.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ch ... ar_twitter

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 10:44 am

martinson wrote:Good morning.
Just to say beware the shy trumper.

Is it because they're silent but deadly?

(I'll get my coat again and won't be put out if the Mods think this is a stink too far

)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 10:50 am

And that's just very naughty

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 11:17 am

HindleA wrote:Morning

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/08/polit ... ults-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hillary Clinton wins Dixville Notch midnight vote

Back in 1992 when her husband was first elected, it voted heavily Republican.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 11:33 am

If Tubby happens to lurk, I'd be interested to hear his (and everyone else's) thoughts on this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... tern-route" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 11:47 am

Toblerone changes bars, meanwhile 2016 reaches bleakest point

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/distractions/offbea ... est-point/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 11:54 am

yahyah wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
The Government is steering us off a cliff with Brexit – but that’s fine, because it’s ‘the will of the people’
Labour, too, has no problem with this view of 'the will of the British people'. Tom Watson loves the phrase. So does Hilary Benn. When the opposition party’s safest seats are the most Brexity in the country, don’t imagine anything that looks like actual opposition to last for very long
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 03186.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I see I'm not alone
You are not alone. There are a lot of us. But our 'will' is not important, we obviously don't count as British people. We are supposed to keep it zipped so Labour don't alienate Brexit and Lexit voters.

(cJA edit)

Thank you, yahyah, I noticed that too. There's a bewildering, dogged adherence of 'will of the people' streaming from Labour over the EU referendum vote I don't entirely understand. Labour MPs may well want re-election from constituencies where a majority voted Leave but I have trouble believing that fully explains Labour's current stance. Maybe they all agreed to say little and when any do say something, keep it simple, 'will of the people'. Even the constituencies most strongly voting Leave had sizeable minorities voting to Remain. I don't get it.

It's big and dangerous, the UK leaving the EU. What the EU referendum was, how it was conducted, it's legal standing, the failure of Tory government to adhere to their own promises, turn tail and running away are all indications of profound dysfunction. Responsible leadership protecting people and country are required. Tory government can't do it.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 11:58 am

Labour MPs say that because being seen to tell voters "YOU ARE WRONG" is one of the biggest taboos in politics. And with reason - it rarely goes down well.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 11:59 am

Willow904 wrote:It says something about American culture, I think, that a black man would become president before a woman.

The attacks on Hillary Clinton, in some ways, have been quite remarkable. When you look at the quality and probity of some previous occupants of the Oval Office, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that Hillary is being held to some different, unique standard. When you assess her in isolation, there are plenty of criticisms that could be made of course, but when put alongside other candidates it's hard to understand why she is quite so reviled. You can only really grasp how this has happened by going back to Bill Clinton's presidential campaign and looking back at how, from the very beginning, Hillary Clinton has been disproportionately attacked and misrepresented by American media. They've always had it in for her. She refused to play the traditional First Lady little wife role and they've never forgiven her.

The result of today's US election is going to be quite significant for America, of which the election of a intellectually challenged celebrity Republican alpha male would be the least remarkable outcome imo. Which is why I fear a Trump win remains a distinct possibility, whatever the polls say.

black men got the vote in 1870. Women 1920.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Nov, 2016 12:01 pm

Though of course, *all* black men did not get the vote until less than 50 years ago.