Thursday 10th November 2016

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 7:03 am

Owen Jones. Hard to argue with any of this.

"So what next for the left? It clearly cannot compromise in the fight against racism, misogyny and homophobia but it must urgently work out how to do that in a way that connects with the unreached. The working class is increasingly diverse and the left must have a message that resonates with all constituencies. It cannot allow the populist right to portray it as a hater of working-class values.

We need to project an emotionally compelling vision. Because now we know that stating the facts and hoping for the best will not blunt the right or build a progressive alliance. There is a common thread, but centrists and radicals have failed to find it. We must redouble our efforts. From the US, we see what tragedy occurs in a vacuum."

The left needs a new populism fast. It’s clear what happens if we fail

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ulism-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 7:09 am

http://socialistreview.org.uk/349/meaning-david-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Meaning of David Cameron

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 7:11 am

StephenDolan wrote:Owen Jones. Hard to argue with any of this.

"So what next for the left? It clearly cannot compromise in the fight against racism, misogyny and homophobia but it must urgently work out how to do that in a way that connects with the unreached. The working class is increasingly diverse and the left must have a message that resonates with all constituencies. It cannot allow the populist right to portray it as a hater of working-class values.

We need to project an emotionally compelling vision. Because now we know that stating the facts and hoping for the best will not blunt the right or build a progressive alliance. There is a common thread, but centrists and radicals have failed to find it. We must redouble our efforts. From the US, we see what tragedy occurs in a vacuum."

The left needs a new populism fast. It’s clear what happens if we fail

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ulism-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did write to Owen Jones with some thoughts on how we might do this.
He was too busy "writing his new book" to respond.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 7:28 am

Morning.

Thanks Roger for your post last night. Just ignore him, it doesn't bother me.
xx

Hope it didn't upset you JA. Don't worry, the last time I was the object of a hate campaign was when I was eleven years old

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 8:11 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Owen Jones. Hard to argue with any of this.

"So what next for the left? It clearly cannot compromise in the fight against racism, misogyny and homophobia but it must urgently work out how to do that in a way that connects with the unreached. The working class is increasingly diverse and the left must have a message that resonates with all constituencies. It cannot allow the populist right to portray it as a hater of working-class values.

We need to project an emotionally compelling vision. Because now we know that stating the facts and hoping for the best will not blunt the right or build a progressive alliance. There is a common thread, but centrists and radicals have failed to find it. We must redouble our efforts. From the US, we see what tragedy occurs in a vacuum."

The left needs a new populism fast. It’s clear what happens if we fail

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ulism-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I did write to Owen Jones with some thoughts on how we might do this.
He was too busy "writing his new book" to respond.

A good place to start is to find a new word. ''Populism'' comes with too much baggage.
Building a ''movement'' needs a rethink too now that Trump uses the term.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 8:22 am

yahyah wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Owen Jones. Hard to argue with any of this.

"So what next for the left? It clearly cannot compromise in the fight against racism, misogyny and homophobia but it must urgently work out how to do that in a way that connects with the unreached. The working class is increasingly diverse and the left must have a message that resonates with all constituencies. It cannot allow the populist right to portray it as a hater of working-class values.

We need to project an emotionally compelling vision. Because now we know that stating the facts and hoping for the best will not blunt the right or build a progressive alliance. There is a common thread, but centrists and radicals have failed to find it. We must redouble our efforts. From the US, we see what tragedy occurs in a vacuum."

The left needs a new populism fast. It’s clear what happens if we fail

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ulism-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I did write to Owen Jones with some thoughts on how we might do this.
He was too busy "writing his new book" to respond.

A good place to start is to find a new word. ''Populism'' comes with too much baggage.
Building a ''movement'' needs a rethink too now that Trump uses the term.

Yes I agree. Those words are ever so 20th century aren't they?

Oh and Good Morning!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 8:32 am

I'd scrap 'establishment' and 'elites' too.

They are used by everyone from far left to far right, Momentum, libertarians, Kippers, neo-nazis, conspiracy theorists and Uncle Tom Cobley and all. I suspect that's why there are more voters flip flopping around. They tune into those words and follow where they lead them.

That's why I am uneasy with some of the left, including Corbyn's more extreme supporters, at the moment. If the left use the same terms as right wingers, racists, fruit loops and neo-nazis then it may help fuel the whole mob mentality that leads to demagoguery.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 8:50 am

Morning all.

Yes, 'establishment' and 'elite' grates with me too - sometimes used by people who are actually part of the establishment! Fararge talking about the 'political class'...er...right that's the 15+ year MEP who's attempted to get into the HoC on numerous occasions.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 9:02 am

I was enjoying listening to Naomi Woolf's views on Radio 4 but she used the 'e' word.
I'll post a link when it goes on i-player.

My friend up the lane just emailed me this. It has some positive ideas in it on how to deal with the changes ahead.

https://www.thersa.org/discover/publica ... o-disaster" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd never heard of the Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures [sic] and Commerce but they have been working for social reform for 260 years.

https://www.thersa.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 9:06 am

Duncan Weldon ‏@DuncanWeldon 2m2 minutes ago

Already seeing references to "hard Trump" vs "soft Trump" in market commentary. Please stop.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 9:31 am

May hails 'golden era' in relations with China

Sure. Golden for them. Error for us.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 9:31 am

Naomi Woolf on the American election result.
She's followed by Emily Thornberry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082sy3l" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Starts at 2 hours 35 minutes.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 9:36 am

The newspaper front page that sums up Europe's reaction to Trump victory - The Independent
https://apple.news/AgDwxmEdrRDmr5Ipt9oE85Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Liberation holding back a little bit.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 9:46 am

yahyah wrote:Naomi Woolf on the American election result.
She's followed by Emily Thornberry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082sy3l" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Starts at 2 hours 35 minutes.

Can't listen at the moment, any chance of a summary of both yahyah?

Pretty please

Morning all btw, forgetting my manners.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:04 am

Good-morning, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:08 am

Prodigy
Firestarter

https://youtu.be/wmin5WkOuPw

A favourite song & video accompaniment of mine

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:08 am

Apologies if we saw this yesterday but this is astonishing...

Nigel Farage offers to help UK 'get on with Trump'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37927270

Not just the bit about helping UK government which the FCO will just dismiss but this.

The UKIP leader, who is due to stand down at the end of the month, met Mr Trump several times during the campaign and has been linked with a job in the Trump administration - potentially even as his envoy to the EU.

I can just see that going down well in the EU...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:10 am

Alternatively, there's some guy outside nearby with a metal grinding machine making high-pitched, loud sounds metal-on-metal

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:13 am

The good old BBC decides it's time to legitimise and normalise another one:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:13 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Apologies if we saw this yesterday but this is astonishing...

(cJA edit)

Nothing is astonishing any more, Roger. 'Astonishing' has been made redundant with 'satire' and 'irony'.

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:18 am

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=58CD7F4E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:29 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Thanks Roger for your post last night. Just ignore him, it doesn't bother me.
xx

Hope it didn't upset you JA. Don't worry, the last time I was the object of a hate campaign was when I was eleven years old

No, I wasn't upset or angry, yahyah. I'm glad you're okay.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:34 am

Bonnylad wrote:https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=58CD7F4E

I take some small consolation in the fact both the US presidential election and Brexit were narrowly chosen. Neither enjoy any satisfactory decisiveness.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:36 am

Well this cheered me up by giving me a laugh anyway

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:41 am

One thing that seems to be being overlooked by the media analyses, is that Trump didn't actually increase the overall republican vote, a campaign from the Democrats that engaged more voters could have won this one. Trump's victory is by no means insurmountable.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:47 am

Womble44 wrote:One thing that seems to be being overlooked by the media analyses, is that Trump didn't actually increase the overall republican vote, a campaign from the Democrats that engaged more voters could have won this one. Trump's victory is by no means insurmountable.

One of the many good points made on the latest 538 podcast.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:52 am

I was somehow unaware they had a podcast. Will look it up

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 10:55 am

yahyah wrote:I'd scrap 'establishment' and 'elites' too.

They are used by everyone from far left to far right, Momentum, libertarians, Kippers, neo-nazis, conspiracy theorists and Uncle Tom Cobley and all. I suspect that's why there are more voters flip flopping around. They tune into those words and follow where they lead them.

That's why I am uneasy with some of the left, including Corbyn's more extreme supporters, at the moment. If the left use the same terms as right wingers, racists, fruit loops and neo-nazis then it may help fuel the whole mob mentality that leads to demagoguery.

Yes, I think that's at the bottom of my hesitancy over left wing movements like Momentum. They are seeking to tap into that anti-establishment anger, rather than debunk it. Yes of course we shouldn't be blindly trusting of our democratic leaders, of course we should question them and hold them to account but that isn't the same as treating all politicians as some kind of homogenous evil cabal. By talking negatively of politicians as a group rather than the individuals they are we start to dehumanise them, turning them into a symbol of what we feel is wrong with the system, rather than people in their own right. This is very much what has happened to Hillary Clinton I feel.

This is also what is happening within Labour, with references to Corbynites, Blairites, Momentum and Saving Labour. MPs and Labour supporters with their own unique outlooks on the world are being reduced to simplistic ideological stereotypes and then condemned by their opposite numbers. I find this troubling. We are all flawed, we are all selfish by nature, we are none of us perfect or have all the answers. We all make mistakes, we are all in danger of being misled or manipulated and we are all indirectly responsible for some evil in the world through our actions or choices, whether it's the perpetuation of Chinese sweat shops through our purchases of tablets and phones or our contribution to global warming through driving our cars or heating our homes. When none of us are blameless, why waste time apportioning blame? Unless Labour can get back to discussing the merits, or not, of various policies rather than the merits, or not, of various people, it will make no progress.

Post by **adam** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 11:05 am

I'm conditioned by having just re-read The Shock Doctrine, I know, but I think it's very likely that whilst Trump pantomimes around (very dangrously) in the limelight there are a team of Freidmanite doctrinaire appointees waiting in wings now who will come in and shred whatever public provision, progressive taxation, regulation or state ownership or control they can find.

Also there's a fair bit of comment about on what happens when you badmouth the people you want to support you - you don't go around shouting 'jail the bitch', or clamour for mass deportation, or vote for the person who does these things, because you're part of the excluded or dispossessed. You do it because you're a shit. The left (and the Democrats) need to develop programmes built around improving the lives of, in American terms, 'regular' working people, but feeling cut off from prosperity doesn't give you a free pass to be a shit.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 11:11 am

Womble44 wrote:I was somehow unaware they had a podcast. Will look it up

They're usually once a week but for the last week they've been daily.

This is the one I was referring to.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ele ... ent-trump/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The podcasts are nice and easy to find using a catcher. I'm partial to Podcast Addict. Between 538, Serial, Untold : the Daniel Morgan murder, On The Media and assorted sports podcasts, my lunchtimes are spent with headphones.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 11:23 am

I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts too. I'd also recommend the cracked podcast. Their analysis of the election result came out this morning, I'd really recommend listening to it. Gave me a few things to think about regarding my own opinions.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 11:26 am

Good morfternoon.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 11:27 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Good to read you, PorFavor. The sun came out too.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 11:30 am

yahyah wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Owen Jones. Hard to argue with any of this.

"So what next for the left? It clearly cannot compromise in the fight against racism, misogyny and homophobia but it must urgently work out how to do that in a way that connects with the unreached. The working class is increasingly diverse and the left must have a message that resonates with all constituencies. It cannot allow the populist right to portray it as a hater of working-class values.

We need to project an emotionally compelling vision. Because now we know that stating the facts and hoping for the best will not blunt the right or build a progressive alliance. There is a common thread, but centrists and radicals have failed to find it. We must redouble our efforts. From the US, we see what tragedy occurs in a vacuum."

The left needs a new populism fast. It’s clear what happens if we fail

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ulism-fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I did write to Owen Jones with some thoughts on how we might do this.
He was too busy "writing his new book" to respond.

A good place to start is to find a new word. ''Populism'' comes with too much baggage.
Building a ''movement'' needs a rethink too now that Trump uses the term.

Tbh I disagree on both points, one of the left's problems is that it has allowed "populism" to be claimed by the right.

Trying to reclaim it (both in word and deed) is a more viable prospect for the left than endlessly recycling "progressive patriotism" as NuLab policy wonk types are prone to do.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 11:36 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: I did write to Owen Jones with some thoughts on how we might do this.
He was too busy "writing his new book" to respond.

A good place to start is to find a new word. ''Populism'' comes with too much baggage.
Building a ''movement'' needs a rethink too now that Trump uses the term.
Tbh I disagree on both points, one of the left's problems is that it has allowed "populism" to be claimed by the right.

Trying to reclaim it (both in word and deed) is a more viable prospect for the left than endlessly recycling "progressive patriotism" as NuLab policy wonk types are prone to do.

Tend to agree with you. The endless quest to find new words and then get them accepted is a bit of a navel-gazing exercise.

Look how "pre-distribution" went - and that, to me, shouldn't have been a particularly difficult one to get across.

Edited to say, more clearly, what I meant.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 11:39 am

Womble44 wrote:I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts too. I'd also recommend the cracked podcast. Their analysis of the election result came out this morning, I'd really recommend listening to it. Gave me a few things to think about regarding my own opinions.

Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:09 pm

Labour needs to address the fears of those who don't see themselves as 'benefit recipients' but who are not especially well off that they will be expected to pay in more whilst getting nothing in return themselves. The problem is that much of people's thinking comes from the popular press and the popular press encourages them to view Labour as taking their hard earned money and giving it to workshy scroungers. Most people are net recipients, only the very wealthy pay in more than they get out of the system in pure monetary terms and even then there are secondary benefits of living in a more progressive, more equal society (better health outcomes, for instance). I don't see how you build a consensus for such a society through a populism that seeks to make enemies of "others", whether they are immigrants, Muslims, the metropolitan elite or progressive liberals. I assume I must be misunderstanding the nature of 'populism' if posters here feel Labour should harness it, because for me 'populism' seems to work only by being divisive.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:30 pm

NonOxCol wrote:The good old BBC decides it's time to legitimise and normalise another one:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Producer justifies booking in several numbered tweets, here are the replies to the 6th one, regarding (cough) "holding them to account":

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and the next one:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:34 pm

"Holding people to account" has not been a notable feature of most mainstream journalism in recent years.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:34 pm

Willow904 wrote:Labour needs to address the fears of those who don't see themselves as 'benefit recipients' but who are not especially well off that they will be expected to pay in more whilst getting nothing in return themselves. The problem is that much of people's thinking comes from the popular press and the popular press encourages them to view Labour as taking their hard earned money and giving it to workshy scroungers. Most people are net recipients, only the very wealthy pay in more than they get out of the system in pure monetary terms and even then there are secondary benefits of living in a more progressive, more equal society (better health outcomes, for instance). I don't see how you build a consensus for such a society through a populism that seeks to make enemies of "others", whether they are immigrants, Muslims, the metropolitan elite or progressive liberals. I assume I must be misunderstanding the nature of 'populism' if posters here feel Labour should harness it, because for me 'populism' seems to work only by being divisive.

"Populism" is, to me, very often a way of describing the harnessing of the tendency to bully and intimidate.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:41 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:The newspaper front page that sums up Europe's reaction to Trump victory - The Independent
https://apple.news/AgDwxmEdrRDmr5Ipt9oE85Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Liberation holding back a little bit.

Rioting in Oakland CA last night against Trump's election
Images at the bottom of the article

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:43 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Labour needs to address the fears of those who don't see themselves as 'benefit recipients' but who are not especially well off that they will be expected to pay in more whilst getting nothing in return themselves. The problem is that much of people's thinking comes from the popular press and the popular press encourages them to view Labour as taking their hard earned money and giving it to workshy scroungers. Most people are net recipients, only the very wealthy pay in more than they get out of the system in pure monetary terms and even then there are secondary benefits of living in a more progressive, more equal society (better health outcomes, for instance). I don't see how you build a consensus for such a society through a populism that seeks to make enemies of "others", whether they are immigrants, Muslims, the metropolitan elite or progressive liberals. I assume I must be misunderstanding the nature of 'populism' if posters here feel Labour should harness it, because for me 'populism' seems to work only by being divisive.
"Populism" is, to me, very often a way of describing the harnessing of the tendency to bully and intimidate.

It has come to mean that because of its harnessing by the right. But it doesn't have to.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:44 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:"Holding people to account" has not been a notable feature of most mainstream journalism in recent years.

No, they haven't. Just free advertising.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:46 pm

Nigel Farage jokes about Trump's alleged sexual assaults - the guardian
https://apple.news/AF-SdgM4ZTmukts8MUCoGIg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not racist.

Farage continued: “That Obama creature – loathsome individual – he couldn’t stand our country. He said we’d be at the back of the queue, didn’t he?”

Not odious.

Farage then joked about Trump meeting May, saying, “don’t touch her for goodness sake”,

Not a massive, hypocritical bellend.

“I’m the catalyst for the downfall of the Blairites, the Clintonites, the Bushites, and all these dreadful people who work hand in glove with Goldman Sachs and everybody else, have made themselves rich, and ruined our countries,” Farage replied. “I couldn’t be happier.”

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:48 pm

Oops.

Madam President: how Newsweek reported a Clinton victory - the guardian
https://apple.news/AUyTDqEHjRhqcuJ5l0JDCaQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:48 pm

That Obama creature!?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:50 pm

I've just tried to renew my Labour Party membership online. It doesn't accept the existence of my membership number (which I've copied and pasted from their e-mail, and checked and double-checked against my card).

I had this problem last year and alerted them to it. I'm not impressed.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:53 pm

Gender pay gap means women 'working for free from now until 2017' - the guardian
https://apple.news/AOdTrFcHYQOmzqtReH-CUQw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Women will in effect work for free for the rest of the year because of the gender pay gap, which will take 60 years to close at the current rate of progress, campaigners say.

They may as well publish the same article every year. I feel as though I've read it all before. Because I, in essence, have.

Good job we have a woman Prime Minister. I'm sure she'll be just as effective as Thatcher was at righting this terrible wrong.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:56 pm

ACLU NationalVerified account
‏@ACLU
Should President-elect Donald Trump attempt to implement his unconstitutional campaign promises, we'll see him in court.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 10 Nov, 2016 12:56 pm

Elitism. The problem with it isn't the word or it's use. The problem with it is that the people it used to capture were all right wing and Tory. With the modern day PLP, the issue is that it also includes far too many of them. Getting angry at the use of the word is just turning a blind eye to the issue it represents. And that's what gets us Trump as president.

Don't get angry at the word. Get angry at the reason for it.